MAMEWorld Forums - EmuChat - Re: Mame 162 -listxml

> Excuse me, who do you think you are? Not only are you talking yourself in circles,
> but you have no idea what you're talking about to begin with.
>
> > Same goes for the systems emulated... i will never use Vectrex, Amiga, C64 SNES
> with
> > MESS, as there are better emulators, even cycle-accurate.
>
> First, there is no better Vectex emulator than what is represented by the MAME
> driver, so you're wrong (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if that's what
> you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation). On the others you listed I'd agree
> with you, even documented that agreement - but to say you'll "never" use them is
> silly; and you are using three convenient examples to try to prove your point when
> you know there are many other drivers for which MAME has no real equal - and when you
> know there are some systems *only* emulated by MAME.
>
> Many years ago when there were hundreds of arcade emulators about, people who didn't
> "get it" had a similar attitude about them vs. MAME, and couldn't see that history
> wouldn't be kind to any of them given basic common sense. We will see history repeat
> itself yet again with many non-coinop system emulators and slowly, over time, they
> will fall into obscurity in light of MAME. I'm glad for that, history is better for
> that, and I honestly don't care if you disagree with me; you will be wrong in time.
>
> > your "wow, I can get Genesis too?" exists allready in some frontends, so this is
> not
> > some new holy grail found here and guess what, it took the developers a lot of time
> > and work, to have that feature, which now becomes a little useless, until it can
> work
> > again like it was once.
>
> In SOME frontends yes, which kindof proves the point I made (and that you basically
> missed) - namely that MAME's consolidation will lend more visibility to non-coinop
> systems, full stop. I appreciate a good frontend too, especially excellent ones like
> QMC2 which more people should be using. However, you seem to act as if MAMEdev need
> to play second fiddle to the frontend developers and somehow cater to THEM when the
> reality is the other way around, by definintion: without MAME and MAMEdev, there
> WOULD be no frontends.
>
> It sounds naive after all these years of bearing witness to this kind of crap, but
> for all the ungrateful whining going on here I can certainly see why MAMEdev reaction
> is the way it is.

Ok.. first, i dont want to heat up this discussion to a point, where no one listens to what somebody else has to say.

I will start with Vectrex, as ParaJVE is the best emulator for Vectrex: http://vectrex-emu.blogspot.de/

Maybe you are right, if you look at accuracy, cant test it, as i am not at home to compare it with my real Vectrex.
But there are more things to consider, especially the look and feel, this is where ParaJVE shines. It has one of the best vector shaders I have seen, a thing that i am missing in MAME or MESS in general. I am on it to change this and it will be for sure the next big thing i want to deliver to MAME.

Off course I understand the whole MAME dev philosophy thing behind it, but saying that i.e. overlays are not important (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if that's what you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation), is simply not true, it is just not as important as i.e. accuracy. This case is especially true, if it comes to Vectrex and the same goes for the look and feel of the presentation of Vectors in general.

Like i said, i cant compare the accuracy of MESS, ParaJVE and a real Vectrex at the moment, but I never felt that ParaJVE did the job wrong and I own a real Vectrex

and because of these facts, i can safely say, that the MESS emulation is miles away from competing against ParaJVE, which stopped development 4 years ago and it stopped not because there was no interest, it stopped because it reached a point of perfection, where the developer thought "its far enough".

This brings me to the next thing:

We will see history repeat itself yet again with many non-coinop system emulators and slowly, over time, they will fall into obscurity in light of MAME. I'm glad for that, history is better for that, and I honestly don't care if you disagree with me; you will be wrong in time.

But you could look at this statement just the opposite way.... MAME+MESS merged, to bring more attention to non-arcade-emulation that is far away from comparing to similar emulation, that existed for years. The attention brings ,"so to say", people to make maybe a wrong decision. In case of Vectrex to a emulation that is not in a nice and "true" gaming experience state.
Every single person that i send a link to ParaJVE didnt regret it and used it as their main emulator.
Evil said, MAME+MESS will help to forget about the "better emulators" and will create a new "standard", that puts better alternatives into forgottenness

.

Off course, I admit that MESS also contains examples that are outstanding. I just wanted to show a different view. There is also the thing with the lazyness of people. MESS is considered by many as a "One that rules them all" solution. Especially these people, will maybe never experience a better alternative. So MAME+MESS can become a twosided-sword, even if i clearly see the "in the long run" term and agree with it.

The frontends: I think my definition for it, differs from yours. QMC2 is for me a advanced GUI for MAME. It is not cab-friendly and it is MAME (+MESS) exclusive only.
IMHO not excellent enough. I cant tell about any exclusive feature that QMC2 has.... seems pretty basic to me.

Updates: Meanwhile MAME has a frequent update circle. A thing that devolopers need to deal with. It is work that needs no blaming to anyone. But the approach with the merge of MAME and MESS is heavy.
If it had be introduced with small steps, i.e. starting with the option that you can only compile yourself such a version, developers would have time to look into it and have the time to react for further upcoming things. At least many companys are doing it that way. This would be a fair approach and it would help more to guarantee a succesfull start, as the fontends would be working properly

.
Instead of working together, we are flaming here. We dont need a second fiddle definition, we need teamwork and treating each other with some respect. It shouldnt be "eat or die". I am for sure, not a person who is only whining and bitching, i am more in a search for reasonable arguments to deal with. Where ever i can, i try to help MAME being the ultimate experience. I had and will have projects focusing on that.

> It's very crystal clear:
>
> 1. You're looking for excuses to hate something when things are not your way. The
> typical spoiled brat behavior.

Not true, just have other thoughts about the whole thing (see above) . A forum that doesnt accept other thoughts... well

.

> 2. No one forces you to use MESS drivers in the same way no one forces you to get
> every ROM needed for the MESS drivers to work. There isn't any performance difference
> between MAMEArcade and MAME+MESS, just more options. You don't go to a car
> manufacturer to demand a smaller gas tank because you only run your vehicle a few
> blocks, just simply add less gasoline.

All of this, is not important to me

(see above) . If attention was intended (the only agument of you all), then the MAME devs could have it done better.

> 3. You talk in representation of "novice/beginner people" who can't compile and will
> use anything are handed to them anyway.

(see above)

> 4. Front-ends are made to give accessibility to specific program versions. They're
> not called in-betweens because the dependency is from the program itself they want to
> front-end, not the other way around.

True, but the merge now introduced way more dependencies. The developers are not only dependent on MAME itself anymore and additional sources/steps are now needed, with no benefit at all. More work that is less productive.

> 5. Third party development is always needed. ClrMAME needs to update constantly,
> MinGW too. A front-end is third party software.

True, but from a developer point of view, you should always try to be as independent as possible. ClrMAME is not a frontend, or a necessary tool for creating one and more important it just has one purpose. It doesnt need to deal with other world-of-emulation-news. It is not a fair comparison, i.e. to GameEx, that must deal with many other factors.
And MinGW well... it is kinda the heart of MAME.

> Wrong. There is also a third category, the biggest category, people who know of MAME
> but have never even heard of MESS. Having the two projects merged neatly solves that
> problem. More visibility for MESS, or even MAME, is never a bad thing, because it
> inherently attracts more developers to the project. Don't believe me? Look through
> the most recent whatsnew.txt files at all of the people who have suddenly popped up
> and started contributing since MAME switched to being hosted at Github.

see above.