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pete3k
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Marble madness 2 wip haze
#394062 - 05/25/22 04:21 AM


I'm surprised no one posted this. It appears marble madness 2 will be in the next release of mame...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OapUeEAWrho&t=112s

Thank you haze



Joe12345
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: pete3k]
#394064 - 05/25/22 05:03 AM


so who leaked the roms?



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Joe12345]
#394065 - 05/25/22 05:12 AM


> so who leaked the roms?

No-one knows.



TrevEB
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394066 - 05/25/22 06:06 AM


Oh oh, now you've done it.
The biggest news in 20 years came like a whisper.

Alright Bouncer. You’re Up!

TrevEB



Doosh
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: pete3k]
#394071 - 05/25/22 01:59 PM


It was mentioned under emuchat earlier:

https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh...part=1&vc=1

If it does make a release in mame, for me it will be the best news since sega model 1 was announced

Well done to Haze and the team again.



uVSthem
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: TrevEB]
#394080 - 05/25/22 09:43 PM


Yes, after Bouncer, let's get the Beavis and Butt-Head roms.



gregf
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: pete3k]
#394082 - 05/25/22 10:42 PM




> I'm surprised no one posted this.

Before the era of development on GitHub, it likely would have been in past era
where there would be a Wip announcement on one of the devs websites or Twitter account.
Those days are somewhat over now that visitors can look at progress on some GitHub accounts
these days.

A bit of how to look over development in GitHub.


GitHub MAME account home page

https://github.com/mamedev/mame



Pull requests are created in hopes to be added to source code in the future.
Each request is viewed and corrected over time in case devs believe improvements
are needed first in order for code to be supported.

https://github.com/mamedev/mame/pulls



When at front page of MAME Git Hub account, the miniature icon over on far right side can be clicked on to see
what pull requests have been officially accepted into MAME source code.

https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commits/master



Here is one part of the source code file running MM2

https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/marblmd2.cpp



>It appears marble madness 2 will be in the next release of mame...

It will be in following .245 official release, but since it is now currently in the source code, it is possible to
compile an unofficial build……that is for those users that have modern era computers and know how to work
on creating their own builds while most users will wait until official release is out.



gregf
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394083 - 05/25/22 10:50 PM




>> so who leaked the roms?

> No one knows.

Moogly’s guess makes the most likely scenario imo.
I didn’t agree with it at first, but I weighed it over and eventually agreed with Moogly’s guess.



gregf
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: TrevEB]
#394084 - 05/25/22 10:55 PM




> Alright Bouncer. You’re Up!

In the past, I would have said no, but the fact that famed Atari dump of some of the ET games in New Mexico landfill in early 1980s and were eventually unearthed 30 years later, makes things maybe possible.



*=/STARRIDER\=*
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: pete3k]
#394104 - 05/27/22 05:57 AM


OK,

I'm going to say something that I probably shouldn't but that's never stopped me before!

If anyone thinks my thinking is wrong, please explain.

Everyone knows the story, ATARI made the game and decided to scrap it. This means that they would have accounted for all the labor and hardware expenses and claimed that $$$ as a tax right off.
That being the case no one that worked on it in any way has any right to ownership and legally the game should have been erased destroyed and made to not exist in any way that any one could ever profit from it.

So now, after decades the fact that some collector who claims to have dumpster dived and some how got his hands on not only one but two different versions and then claimed that he could not share them because one of the programmers wouldn't allow it seems so sad.

Everyone knows that Aaron wrote drivers for (I believe both versions) for that collector back then and never shared or leaked anything about any of it!!!

Now after all that time, what was the point for that said collector???
Now another dump of something he held so long to himself has surfaced, did his decades old boner just go limp???

What was the fucking point?



There is no law in the arena




SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: *=/STARRIDER\=*]
#394105 - 05/27/22 07:40 AM


Because he wanted to drag it around to shows and wave his cock around for 20 years. I said 20 years ago on the mame dot net board after the fundraising fiasco that he was going to wait to release it until after he was sick of dragging the cab to shows for 20 years. I tried to find the post but archive dot org didn’t capture the message board correctly.

But it just goes to show, I’m always right about everything.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: uVSthem]
#394106 - 05/27/22 07:42 AM


Don’t we already have the beavis disc dumped? Bouncer no longer exists.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: gregf]
#394107 - 05/27/22 07:44 AM


How do you figure that? We knew in the 90s the ET carts were there, it was just a matter of digging. Very smelly digging. Those carts smell worse than the game stinks.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394108 - 05/27/22 08:13 AM


> Don’t we already have the beavis disc dumped? Bouncer no longer exists.

Beavis and Butthead is hoarded by the Galloping Ghost guy – he gets a massive boner from reminding people that they can only see the game on his terms, kinda like Scott.



TrevEB
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394109 - 05/27/22 08:28 AM


Bouncer exists dammit!

Its sitting in a Hollywood props warehouse along with a bunch of other no name arcade machines and a few named machines.
And a Ninja suit!
Someday someone will notice.

Never say never.

Oh and yes you were right.
MM2 has not been to CAX for 2 shows. I’m told it will be at this years show end of July.

TrevEB



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394110 - 05/27/22 08:36 AM


I’ve heard that a cab owner at Cax years ago let us dump it on the floor of the show. It might have even been Aaron that ripped it and Belmsy said there was a working driver by Phil that couldn’t be used because it borrowed code from another emulator.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: TrevEB]
#394111 - 05/27/22 08:38 AM


Not showing up was maybe a Covid thing. I am not sure if safestuff actually released it anon or if someone got it from Aaron and leaked it.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394113 - 05/27/22 11:44 AM


> I’ve heard that a cab owner at Cax years ago let us dump it on the floor of the show.
> It might have even been Aaron that ripped it and Belmsy said there was a working
> driver by Phil that couldn’t be used because it borrowed code from another emulator.

Aaron is too happy to cooperate with the American hoarding scene on one hand while throwing borderline racist insults at the Japanese hoarding scene on the other. There’s no “us” or “we” there. It may as well not be dumped or preserved, no-one’s going to see it.

If you’re talking about code inspired in any way by that 3DO emulator, that’s never going to see the light of day, either. The license is toxic – it says you can’t apply any knowledge you gain from the source to development of other emulators. That means anyone who has looked at the source can’t work on any other 3DO emulator unless they can prove they learned everything elsewhere.

Phil is also pretty well-known for doing hacky proofs-of-concept that are in no way ready to be accepted into MAME. Remember how long it took for the Fairlight CMI and Konami 3DO M2 drivers to be picked up by someone who wanted to bring them up to scratch, and we still haven’t seen the Casio Loopy stuff, either.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394114 - 05/27/22 11:49 AM


> Phil is also pretty well-known for doing hacky proofs-of-concept that are in no way
> ready to be accepted into MAME. Remember how long it took for the Fairlight CMI and
> Konami 3DO M2 drivers to be picked up by someone who wanted to bring them up to
> scratch, and we still haven’t seen the Casio Loopy stuff, either.

The Casio Loopy stuff is generally down to Phil wanting to get the driver 100% correct before submitting it, and having a tonne of things to juggle in real life. I personally disagree with the idea of waiting, but hey, it's his choice to make.

As the person who updated the CMI IIx and M2 drivers to modern APIs, I'd rather you didn't use them as reasons for throwing someone under the proverbial bus, because your analysis is just incorrect. The current CMI IIx and M2 drivers are pretty much identical to how they were at when Phil put them to the side, it's just that after so many years of them not existing upstream, they needed roughly a decade's worth of updating to the modern MAME core APIs. What we have now isn't based on some "hacky proof-of-concept", they're literally the drivers that Phil himself wrote.



uVSthem
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394115 - 05/27/22 11:54 AM


Doesn't that same guy have some type of Narc prototype rom with a helicopter flying level? That's another rom I'd like to see leaked.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394116 - 05/27/22 12:09 PM


> Not showing up was maybe a Covid thing. I am not sure if safestuff actually released
> it anon or if someone got it from Aaron and leaked it.

There’s almost no chance it came directly from Scott Evans or Aaron Giles. There were at least four Marble Madness II machines made for development and location tests, but likely no more than twelve. We know at least thee people besides Scott Evans have the ROMs, if not complete machines:

  • Bob Flanagan, who developed the game, kept at least a set of ROMs. Scott Evans got the ROM data from Bob Flanagan in order to repair the Marble Madness II board he got with no ROMs.
  • The anonymous collector who Scott Evans originally begged to for ROMs, and eventually got to lend him an unprotected GAL to copy.
  • Scott Swazey evidently has the ROMs, as he’s working making bootleg reproductions by converting some other Atari arcade game. He’s posted progress reports in various places, as well as the demonstration in that John’s Arcade video.


Copies of the game are evidently in the hands of multiple people. Any of those people could have leaked it, probably when one of the hoarders pissed them off. After all, it turned out Akka Arrh was “leaked” by someone Scott Evans hand brought in to help him dump the game who he subsequently pissed off. Scott Evans concocted the whole story about it being surreptitiously dumped by a technician hired to service another game as a diversion.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#394117 - 05/27/22 12:12 PM


> As the person who updated the CMI IIx and M2 drivers to modern APIs, I'd rather you
> didn't use them as reasons for throwing someone under the proverbial bus, because
> your analysis is just incorrect. The current CMI IIx and M2 drivers are pretty much
> identical to how they were at when Phil put them to the side, it's just that after so
> many years of them not existing upstream, they needed roughly a decade's worth of
> updating to the modern MAME core APIs. What we have now isn't based on some "hacky
> proof-of-concept", they're literally the drivers that Phil himself wrote.

I didn’t mean it to throw him under the bus. I mean, I also have his proof-of-concept Star Rider blitter code that I need to eventually clean up and integrate with my squeleton driver (I’d be more motivated to do that if we had a good Laserdisc rip to work with). It’s not bad for what it is, but it’s just that – a proof-of-concept that wasn’t ever really finished.



Haze
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394119 - 05/27/22 01:05 PM


> Because he wanted to drag it around to shows and wave his cock around for 20 years. I
> said 20 years ago on the mame dot net board after the fundraising fiasco that he was
> going to wait to release it until after he was sick of dragging the cab to shows for
> 20 years. I tried to find the post but archive dot org didn’t capture the message
> board correctly.
>
> But it just goes to show, I’m always right about everything.

There's always going to be somebody doing it though.

It happens today with some of those 10 year old NGDev games, people still waving their cocks about showing off what is basically unobtainium (nobody in their right mind is paying over $2k for a cart)

In that sense, Scott wasn't so different.

(NGDev suck even if you do want to buy what they have to offer, they literally won't ship to the UK from Germany, so to get the Switch release of GunLord I've had to ask somebody in Europe to buy it, so I'm paying shipping twice over just because they don't want to submit details to prove who they are to the UK government so that they can be correctly taxed)



MooglyGuy
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394122 - 05/27/22 06:18 PM


> > As the person who updated the CMI IIx and M2 drivers to modern APIs, I'd rather you
> > didn't use them as reasons for throwing someone under the proverbial bus, because
> > your analysis is just incorrect. The current CMI IIx and M2 drivers are pretty much
> > identical to how they were at when Phil put them to the side, it's just that after
> so
> > many years of them not existing upstream, they needed roughly a decade's worth of
> > updating to the modern MAME core APIs. What we have now isn't based on some "hacky
> > proof-of-concept", they're literally the drivers that Phil himself wrote.
>
> I didn’t mean it to throw him under the bus. I mean, I also have his proof-of-concept
> Star Rider blitter code that I need to eventually clean up and integrate with my
> squeleton driver (I’d be more motivated to do that if we had a good Laserdisc rip to
> work with). It’s not bad for what it is, but it’s just that – a proof-of-concept that
> wasn’t ever really finished.

But it's the way you phrased it that I object to. Going back to your original post:

> ...to be picked up by someone who wanted to bring them up to scratch

It's just not accurate. The drivers were "up to scratch" when they were created. They remained up to scratch when being updated through a decade's worth of API revisions.

I'm the first person to want credit for something I actually did, but I don't want undeserved credit, either. The only things I did to the M2 driver and CMI IIx driver involved making changes that would have been made in a more automated way if they'd been committed earlier.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Haze]
#394125 - 05/27/22 10:21 PM


Fortunately for NG Dev, a lot of Neogeo collectors aren’t in their right mind.

I’ll see if I can get someone to dump them anon as they are older than Jesus now.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Haze]
#394127 - 05/27/22 11:24 PM


Someone I know with some of them says they are protected with locked devices and doesn’t know anyone who can crack it. Could you fully dump the data if you were lent a cart or do you know anyone who can?

https://www.mvs-scans.com/index.php/Fast_Striker



AaronGiles
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394128 - 05/27/22 11:31 PM


> Aaron is too happy to cooperate with the American hoarding scene on one hand while

I have indeed helped out a couple of folks with private drivers for "hoarded" ROMs they had. In order to work on said drivers, I did in fact obtain copies of said "hoarded" ROMs.

However, I was and am under no obligation to share them, especially when I was asked not to, and if they leaked it would obviously have been me who was the culprit. I always ask, however, and several times was given the ok (witness numerous prototype games I've added in the past).

Nobody has a "right" to any of this. It's just emulator pokerom entitlement, over and over again. The "hoarded" ROMs are safe, in multiple hands.

> throwing borderline racist insults at the Japanese hoarding scene on the other.

"borderline racist" is a pretty heavy accusation. Proof or STFU. I think it's just your hate boner for me showing again.



Haze
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Smitdogg]
#394130 - 05/28/22 02:43 AM


> Someone I know with some of them says they are protected with locked devices and
> doesn’t know anyone who can crack it. Could you fully dump the data if you were lent
> a cart or do you know anyone who can?
>
> https://www.mvs-scans.com/index.php/Fast_Striker

I can't do anything with the cartridge.

It's presumably some custom protection chip, the function of it is currently unknown, maybe it acts as a math accelerator, maybe it does more.

With nothing dumped at all it's impossible to even really guess what it does / doesn't do.

That's another reason these are of concern; if those chips start failing without us knowing what they do it's going to be a problem. Likewise if they need decapping at some point prices aren't exactly going to start dropping.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Haze]
#394132 - 05/28/22 05:09 AM


I’ll see if I can get roms dumped. Highly doubt anyone would sacrifice a cart to the cap gods.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: AaronGiles]
#394134 - 05/28/22 09:06 AM


> Nobody has a "right" to any of this. It's just emulator pokerom entitlement, over and
> over again. The "hoarded" ROMs are safe, in multiple hands.

Dude, I used to believe your talk, but twenty years of this crap has changed my opinion. This stuff is only “safe” in the sense of “safe” from ever being seen by people outside your clique. You’re going to take it to the grave with you, and what good will it do anyone then?

You guys talk like you’re doing the world a service by showing stuff at California Extreme. Sure, one can travel to a country that officially has a policy that rights don’t exist at the border, with an absurdly high homicide and violent crime rate (especially school shootings), an almost unbelievable incarceration rate, where murder-by-police (“SWATing”) is a thing, where getting cancer basically bankrupts you, where whites-only “sundown towns” were apparently legal within living memory, to see a video game that didn’t pass location test. I’ve already had to spend time in the US for business – not going to do that again if I can avoid it.

I don’t care about having these ROMs. I don’t have a copy of the Marble Madness II ROMs, or the Akka Arrh ROMs, and I feel no compulsion to seek them out. I’ve just had enough of the decades of the smug crap from the US hoarders who take pleasure from rubbing the fact that they have these games and no-one else does in everyone’s face. I’m sick of you guys saying things are “safe” when they’re only safe from ever being seen. I’m sick of the way these people think they somehow “own” the actual IP and have a right to control access just because they came upon the games somehow. There are two particularly poignant cases of this: Scott Evans was clearly mad that Akka Arrh could see a widespread commercial release (on a mini arcade cabinet) after the actual rights holders got hold of the ROMs, as he could no longer control access to it; and Scott Swazey somehow thinks making bootleg Marble Madness II conversions is legitimate just because he got the ROMs somehow.

You’ll go out of your way to make custom MAME builds for these guys. You continue to push the fallacy that this stuff is “safe”. You’ve thrown your lot in with these guys. You can’t complain when you’re tarred with the same brush.

I don’t have a “hate boner” for you. I’m just not prepared to fawn over you.



AaronGiles
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394135 - 05/28/22 09:44 AM


> > Nobody has a "right" to any of this. It's just emulator pokerom entitlement, over and
> > over again. The "hoarded" ROMs are safe, in multiple hands.
>
> Dude, I used to believe your talk, but twenty years of this crap has changed my
> opinion.

Dude, not sure why I'm bothering to argue with someone who cries "racism" without providing a shred of evidence to back it up but whatever....

The point is, there are people out there who have stuff you desire. Call them "hoarders" or whatever. I don't care. They own the items, they've decided not to share, that's their prerogative. You don't like it? Boo hoo.

Some of those folks have asked me to help them out. I decide, sure, why not? Maybe eventually I can convince them to release their stuff. Maybe not. But it's worth a try, and I'll get to check out some cool stuff. So I agree to help them out, and agree not to share the dumps they have. Nothing is lost, nothing is gained.

What you're claiming is that I should say, "Haha, fooled you! Fuck you and your hoarding ways, I'm going to release this shit on the internet for all! Bwahahahaha!" And burn all bridges and friendships I've created along the way.

Fuck that. Maybe you're that kind of person, but I'm not.

> You guys talk like you’re doing the world a service by showing stuff at California
> Extreme.

I've never talked about any of this shit publicly, and that's where you're wrong. I never said I was doing anyone a service. I've pretty much laid low and helped out where I could behind the scenes. For all your complaining about hoarders, you complain that they lord it over you. Never once have I done so. You're imagining things coming from me, and that's where I firmly (pun intended) believe you have a hate boner for me.

> Sure, one can travel to a country that officially has a policy that rights
> don’t exist at the border, with an absurdly high homicide and violent crime rate
> (especially school shootings), an almost unbelievable incarceration rate, where
> murder-by-police (“SWATing”) is a thing, where getting cancer basically bankrupts
> you, where whites-only “sundown towns” were apparently legal within living memory, to
> see a video game that didn’t pass location test. I’ve already had to spend time in
> the US for business – not going to do that again if I can avoid it.

LOL, and you call me "racist" with no evidence, where I have this anti-U.S. rant to demonstrate just how biased you are. Nice.

FWIW, our country is a shithole in many ways, so you don't need to try and educate me on that. However, it has no bearing whatsoever on the issue at hand. The fact that you brought it up just means your hate slip is showing.

> I don’t have a “hate boner” for you. I’m just not prepared to fawn over you.

No one asked you to, but you've repeatedly singled me out and leveled unfounded accusations at me. And that's why I will never contribute another line of code to MAME until you are out of the project. Life is much happier and less toxic on the other side of the fence.

Cheers,
Aaron

Edited by AaronGiles (05/28/22 09:56 AM)



Vas Crabb
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: AaronGiles]
#394137 - 05/28/22 10:43 AM


> The point is, there are people out there who have stuff you desire. Call them
> "hoarders" or whatever. I don't care. They own the items, they've decided not to
> share, that's their prerogative. You don't like it? Boo hoo.

See you keep accusing me of just wanting to get my paws on their precious ROMz. I don’t. I really don’t care whether I have these ROMs or not. I’m sick of these people talking about the stuff being “safe” or “preserved” or whatever, when they’ve shown that they basically want to take it to the grave with them.

> Some of those folks have asked me to help them out. I decide, sure, why not? Maybe
> eventually I can convince them to release their stuff. Maybe not. But it's worth a
> try, and I'll get to check out some cool stuff. So I agree to help them out, and
> agree not to share the dumps they have. Nothing is lost, nothing is gained.
>
> What you're claiming is that I should say, "Haha, fooled you! Fuck you and your
> hoarding ways, I'm going to release this shit on the internet for all! Bwahahahaha!"
> And burn all bridges and friendships I've created along the way.

I’m claiming nothing of the sort. You could just not engage with them. By cooperating with them, you’re lending your name to them and endorsing the scene. You’ve shown up again to say the stuff is “safe” here.

> > You guys talk like you’re doing the world a service by showing stuff at California
> > Extreme.
>
> I've never talked about any of this shit publicly, and that's where you're wrong. I
> never said I was doing anyone a service. I've pretty much laid low and helped out
> where I could behind the scenes. For all your complaining about hoarders, you
> complain that they lord it over you. Never once have I done so. You're imagining
> things coming from me, and that's where I firmly (pun intended) believe you have a
> hate boner for me.

I used the collective “you guys” intentionally. By cooperating with them, you’ve thrown your lot in with them. You’ve “laid low and helped out” with the exact guys doing this.

> > Sure, one can travel to a country that officially has a policy that rights
> > don’t exist at the border, with an absurdly high homicide and violent crime rate
> > (especially school shootings), an almost unbelievable incarceration rate, where
> > murder-by-police (“SWATing”) is a thing, where getting cancer basically bankrupts
> > you, where whites-only “sundown towns” were apparently legal within living memory, to
> > see a video game that didn’t pass location test. I’ve already had to spend time in
> > the US for business – not going to do that again if I can avoid it.
>
> LOL, and you call me "racist" with no evidence, where I have this anti-U.S. rant to
> demonstrate just how biased you are. Nice.

OK, so according to you, it’s “biased” to say that, statistically speaking, visiting the US isn’t a great idea in terms of personal safety or rights. I received death threats from random strangers on the street in Santa Minoca just for being there. I receive racist abuse from random people in Melbourne occasionally too, but the US takes it to another level. I have family members with lifelong health issues caused by US chemical weapons. If I’m “biased” against the US it’s from life experience.

> FWIW, our country is a shithole in many ways, so you don't need to try and educate me
> on that.

But if anyone brings it up as a reason to avoid the place, they’re “biased”?

> > I don’t have a “hate boner” for you. I’m just not prepared to fawn over you.
>
> No one asked you to, but you've repeatedly singled me out and leveled unfounded
> accusations at me. And that's why I will never contribute another line of code to
> MAME until you are out of the project. Life is much happier and less toxic on the
> other side of the fence.

Oh give me a break. You constantly threw knives at me on Discord, in the shoutbox, and wherever else you had an opportunity. You won’t accept responsibility for the fallout from your design decisions and policies. You want concrete examples? Let’s go:

  • Your policy of “MAME’s internal UI is intentionally bad because people should use a front-end” massively held us back and helped ingrain the notion that MAME is too difficult to use.
  • The “don’t #include me, #include emu.h” arrangement not only caused far more unnecessary recompiling, but also facilitated the high level of coupling that makes maintenance difficult.
  • The lack of encapsulation and circular dependencies between libemu and libosd are a maintenance nightmare. There’s no clean API or separation of concerns. Relying on libosd using concrete classes from libemu and consequently needing to #include emu.h facilitated this.
  • You try to shift the blame to merging MESS into MAME, but MESS was just following MAME’s lead architecturally. The fundamental issues with high coupling, lack of encapsulation, circular dependencies, etc. came from MAME.
  • Documentation on the wiki was a complete failure – it was always too decoupled, out-of-sight/out-of-mind, and didn’t get updated. I’ve tried to remedy the situation a little by adding in-source documentation for a few important APIs, and your response was to try and turn it around as a platform to attack me.
  • Whatever the exact mechanism was, removing the cheat finder from the internal UI and/or the switch to the XML cheat format more-or-less killed the cheat scene.
  • The “new” artwork system painted you into a corner almost immediately by being too closely tied to the Space Invaders cabinet model. The fact that it needed a heuristic to enable a special mode to deal with Golly! Ghost! should have been a big red flag. Untangling it after the fact is a years-long process.
  • The UML DRC has too many built-in performance issues. Going straight to a serialisable format for the intermediate form of UML means it incurs and extra decode penalty when generating code. You get penalised with constant spills if you try to make the most of the UML architectural registers in your front-end because it can’t do dynamic host register assignment, hotspot optimisation or even chained data dependencies, making it perform better if you just go out to memory directly in the intermediate code. The front-end needs to know the performance characteristics of UML registers per back-end.


You’re claiming any criticism is “singling you out”, much like you say I’m “biased” for having a negative opinion of the US from life experience.



AaronGiles
Galaxiwarrior
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 1343
Send PM


Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394138 - 05/28/22 12:28 PM


> Oh give me a break. You constantly threw knives at me on Discord, in the shoutbox,
> and wherever else you had an opportunity.

You're mad. Just utterly mad. You feel slighted for some reason, and yet I don't recall a single time where I "threw knives", and certainly not "constantly". You even went off on me on Discord once for a reason I to this day have no understanding of why. You are either delusional or hugely oversensitive to comments that are not intended as negative.

I'd love to see some examples of what I said and how you thought I was attacking you. As I said before, proof or STFU. So much of this is in your head.

> You won’t accept responsibility for the fallout from your design decisions and policies.

I have no idea what you want from me. I know from past experience you don't want me to fix anything, so that can't be the remedy. You want me to say, "Yes, some of my designs haven't held up?" Ok, sure. Some of my designs haven't held up. Happy now? Does that accept responsibility enough for you? I doubt it, because you just need an excuse to hate on me.

Yes, some things in MAME haven't aged well. Many are the way they are because the MAME codebase was stepped incrementally from C to C++ without breaking everything, and moving to C++ at a time when C++ compilers couldn't be trusted to do much more than the basics. Incremental evolution is ugly and doesn't always produce pretty results. But MAME marched on through that time period, and a lot of the underlying architecture persists to this day, for better and for worse. You might have designed it differently, but you weren't there.

> *list of stuff snipped*

Congratulations, you uncovered many areas where MAME is lacking. Like I haven't been aware of these things for years. Some of these are directly or indirectly my fault; others you've misattributed to me or misinterpreted as "policy" when it was just convention or evolution. Many are things that didn't matter before MESS was incorporated. Some of it still doesn't really matter as much as you imply. I could add pages of other things that aren't great either. Some experiments succeeded; others failed. Such is life. I could also add a list of places where you rewrote the code into an over-generalized C++ mess that might check off all of your textbook design patterns boxes, but which is nigh incomprehensible. Nobody's perfect, and MAME is full of stuff that could be better, even your code.

> You’re claiming any criticism is “singling you out”,

Not really. You're welcome to criticize. I've watched you criticize me, fairly viciously at times, both publicly and privately from afar. Sometimes I see your points, sometimes I think you're just nuts, but whatever. I mostly don't care. But the level of criticism I get from you, both when I was actively submitting PRs, and in other forums, feels more pointed than what you direct toward others. And I'm not alone among devs in this impression.

> much like you say I’m “biased”
> for having a negative opinion of the US from life experience.

I said you're "biased" because you brought up this big anti-U.S. rant unprovoked in the middle of a technical discussion for no apparent reason, after accusing me of having made "borderline racist comments" about Japanese hoarders, for which you offered no supporting evidence.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 4462
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: AaronGiles]
#394139 - 05/28/22 02:54 PM


> > Oh give me a break. You constantly threw knives at me on Discord, in the shoutbox,
> > and wherever else you had an opportunity.
>
> You're mad. Just utterly mad. You feel slighted for some reason, and yet I don't
> recall a single time where I "threw knives", and certainly not "constantly". You even
> went off on me on Discord once for a reason I to this day have no understanding of
> why. You are either delusional or hugely oversensitive to comments that are not
> intended as negative.

You know perfectly well why that was the breaking point for me. I’d implemented a feature which, like everything else in MAME, had been far more work than it should have been due to the amount of technical debt we’re buried under. I put together examples demonstrating how to use it and posted them to relevant forums. Your response was to question whether I’d actually implemented it in the shoutbox, implying that I’d somehow faked the examples. Why did you feel a need to belittle me by accusing me of being a liar in front of everyone like that? Why did you feel a need to haul me back to my computer to defend myself? How did you expect me to react? Why are you still acting like you don’t know why it offended me so badly?



AaronGiles
Galaxiwarrior
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 1343
Send PM


Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394141 - 05/28/22 07:36 PM


> You know perfectly well why that was the breaking point for me. I’d implemented a
> feature which, like everything else in MAME, had been far more work than it should
> have been due to the amount of technical debt we’re buried under. I put together
> examples demonstrating how to use it and posted them to relevant forums. Your
> response was to question whether I’d actually implemented it in the shoutbox,
> implying that I’d somehow faked the examples.

As I've explained multiple times, I never intended anything of the sort. My question was asked out of honest curiosity, because I didn't immediately see how it was hooked up in the source. I never doubted its existence, just didn't see it. Out of laziness I asked about it in the shoutbox.

I'm sorry you took it as any kind of accusation or implication that you were lying. It was never intended as such. You just went off on me and refused to believe my intentions were anything but pure.

> Why are you still acting like you don’t know why it offended me so badly?

Because I 100% in all honesty had no idea, and to this day I still don't know why you read it that way. The shoutbox is ephemeral, but go back and read the discord "conversation" (mostly you ranting at me and never answering any of my questions).

I said over and over I didn't understand, apologized, and then deleted the question out of respect, even though I had no idea why you were upset. If you don't believe me or can't let it go at this point, then that's on you. I was borderline obsequious in my responses, and tried my best to appease you over what was clearly a misunderstanding. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



TrevEB
Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 770
Loc: Oakland, CA
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394147 - 05/29/22 09:10 PM


Have to ask the obvious question.

Have you tried reaching out to Matt Ownby for an acceptable Star Rider img?

Probably best to reach him via facebook, or discord?, not the old daphne page.

He does have an image that is used for Dexter. Whether or not its applicable to Mame or he is willing to take the time to make it, or share what he has to have converted is up to him. Daphne has been on the update to do list for eons so don’t be shocked if he cannot assist but it does not hurt to ask.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 2261
Send PM


Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: TrevEB]
#394148 - 05/29/22 10:02 PM


> Have to ask the obvious question.
>
> Have you tried reaching out to Matt Ownby for an acceptable Star Rider img?
>
> Probably best to reach him via facebook, or discord?, not the old daphne page.
>
> He does have an image that is used for Dexter. Whether or not its applicable to Mame
> or he is willing to take the time to make it, or share what he has to have converted
> is up to him. Daphne has been on the update to do list for eons so don’t be shocked
> if he cannot assist but it does not hurt to ask.

What would you say if I told you that Matt is already heavily involved in the ld-decode project, has been for ages, and the only hold-up on decoding the image that already exists is that I have a day job and we haven't perfected the art of cloning yet?



TrevEB
Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 770
Loc: Oakland, CA
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#394151 - 05/29/22 11:40 PM


I would say yes indeed I know full well.
However since Time Traveler was recently included, perhaps others will trickle in before or after the domesday project images come out.
At this point I’m happy the interest remains strong in persevering the classics.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 2261
Send PM


Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: TrevEB]
#394154 - 05/30/22 05:40 AM


> I would say yes indeed I know full well.
> However since Time Traveler was recently included, perhaps others will trickle in
> before or after the domesday project images come out.
> At this point I’m happy the interest remains strong in persevering the classics.

Time Traveler was added in part because I happened to have a good block of time off from work. During that time, I was able to add a handful of options to one of the tools in the ld-decode toolchain (ld-chroma-decoder) so that it could export video that includes the VBI data within the video file itself, rather than spliced into a separate JSON file as it normally operates. Since it was a long weekend, it also wasn't too rough to eat the 8 hours or so to have my PC flipped over to its Ubuntu partition in order to run the ld-decode toolchain om the Time Traveler disc.

The main reason I haven't made much more forward movement on adding more LD games to MAME comes down to a combination of work chewing up most of my bandwidth, work-from-home meaning that I need to be booted into my Windows partition in order to use Remote Desktop as opposed to being booted into Ubuntu to run ld-decode, and working on some core API cleanup in MAME which has taken about a month to do.

On the bright side, it turns out that one of the team members associated with ld-decode - specifically, investigating using the toolchain for VHS decoding - maintains a separate set of Windows tools, so as soon as the core API cleanup thing is in the bag, I'm going to put Star Rider on my hit list.



TrevEB
Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 770
Loc: Oakland, CA
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#394155 - 05/30/22 08:33 AM


Thats awesome Mooglyguy!
I totally get it. I too am swamped and working from home. Love working from home but the last thing I want to do on the weekend is sit down in that room. I have to find a better boss as well.

Appreciate going after the LDs that have never been emulated. It will be interesting to see how the new backup system looks on the other titles.
Not DL SA or CH of course since they have been remastered to 4K.

TrevEB



*=/STARRIDER\=*
MAME Punk
Reged: 02/06/12
Posts: 335
Loc: an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door.
Send PM


WTF, 4k? LOL new [Re: TrevEB]
#394156 - 05/30/22 09:13 AM


> Not DL SA or CH of course since they have been remastered to 4K.

Ok, I'm not saying anything negative about that, I'm assuming that includes DL2 though.
To be honest, I was one of those that never enjoyed those games. It was the lack of actual interaction.

But, 4k? REALLY?
Isn't the point to preserve the games as they were?
In my eyes the current approach that is being used now is as good as it can possibly get!
If people want to experience them in 4k, it should probably be in a derivative but not official MAME.

Just my 2 cents.



There is no law in the arena




Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 4462
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: WTF, 4k? LOL new [Re: *=/STARRIDER\=*]
#394157 - 05/30/22 09:45 AM


> But, 4k? REALLY?
> Isn't the point to preserve the games as they were?
> In my eyes the current approach that is being used now is as good as it can possibly
> get!
> If people want to experience them in 4k, it should probably be in a derivative but
> not official MAME.

Well I hope the 4k remaster of Dragon’s Lair is being made from film prints of Don Bluth’s original cel animation. Still, 4k is overkill when the source material probably has no better than 2k effective horizontal resolution.

The only reason they keep releasing new remasters it to try to convince people to buy the same game over and over again. It’s not unique to these games, either. Look at Myst, for example. You’ve got Myst: Masterpiece Edition which uses the original 24-bit renders before they were downsampled to 8-bit to fit on a CD (actually makes the flaws more obvious), RealMYST (remake on a realtime 3D engine), RealMYST Masterpiece Edition (another remake on a different realtime 3D engine, with higher resolution textures, and far too many easter eggs breaking the immersion), MYST (yet another realtime 3D remake, with VR support, and the technology/"magic" retconned to be more like the steampunk style in the sequels)... It’s almost like George Lucas and his inability to stop releasing new edits of Star Wars films.

No-one’s talking about putting the 4k remaster in MAME at this point, we’re just talking about getting better LaserDisc images reconstructed from RF captures.



*=/STARRIDER\=*
MAME Punk
Reged: 02/06/12
Posts: 335
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Re: WTF, 4k? LOL new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#394167 - 05/31/22 01:58 AM


>we’re just
> talking about getting better LaserDisc images reconstructed from RF captures.

Exactly how it should be, the equivalent of a ROM dump basically.



There is no law in the arena




celeriacsoup
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/27/19
Posts: 14
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: AaronGiles]
#394888 - 10/02/22 12:10 AM


Oh man this is so sad to see

You guys are absolute MAME legends!

Hope you can find a way to work together in future.

I know it's a hobby at the end of the day but can I say thank you for everything you both have done for MAME over the years.



McHale
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 118
Loc: BFE Illinois
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: celeriacsoup]
#396061 - 04/24/23 07:15 AM


I hate to dig up a REALLY old thread but since it may solve the mystery of where the ROMS came from *AND* announce that a board set is currently for sale, I thought it was worth it (but didn't want to create a new thread because I'm not sure if it's supposed to be under the radar or not).

But, I was doing some MM2 stuff tonight and came across this little nugget:

https://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=8619


For Sale - There is one active VAPS member with an extra Marble Madness 2 Marble Man circuit board for sale.


I wonder who owns the board and wants to sell it:

https://www.arcade-museum.com/members/game_census.php?klov_id=8619


I'll leave it to you to click on the link.



gregf
Ramtek's Trivia promoter
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 8603
Loc: southern CA, US
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Re: Marble madness 2 wip haze new [Re: McHale]
#396062 - 04/24/23 08:22 AM



> Marble Madness 2 Marble Man circuit board

from source code https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/atari/marblmd2.cpp



Supported Games: Marble Madness II (prototype)

Not Dumped: Marble Man: Marble Madness II (earlier version of the game
before it was changed to use Joysticks



Both are different to some extent. To me, the one already supported
fits along with the game design concept. I was a fan of MM back in the
1980s and played that many times over. I believe what is already supported
came elsewhere and what is mentioned is not what is already supported


> I hate to dig up a REALLY old thread

Okay with me because some serious real life stuff was occurring at the time
and I never had time to read through all the posts from that thread last year.
I didn’t view all of Smit’s posts then, but do agree with him after reading
a couple of his specific posts.



O/t : I would liked to have had a successful search for Moose’s ( Australia / New Zealand region )
game name for the mysterious “Choplifter 1987” game as Moose described it when he was doing his search.
It was probably some Kyle Hodgetts type hack product that was on a limited trial run in that region. It would
been great finding the game name by itself even if no boards no longer can’t be found.

Edited by gregf (04/24/23 08:46 AM)


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