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Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
#387720 - 09/03/20 10:46 AM
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Stern "The End" is a FANTASTIC Arcade game but it got a poor emulation.
The ROM "theends" has many bugs in it and missing elements.
The last attack stage keeps repeating itself and you never get to the bricks subtracting stage which is crucial if you want to get a high score. The stage of the single alien attack is also missing. Oh and there is this Bug which gives you infinite lives every time you get to a score of about 20000 points (although that won't help you much since the bricks keep forming the words "the end" -remember the missing bricks subtraction stage).
A couple of years ago,I submitted a game at TG which got rejected because of the problems in the emulation.
Since then I always hoped that someday this game will get emulated properly as it it is a gem of a game!
Here's my rejected effort:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/182230-M-A-M-E-The-End-Stern-Points-46-400-Doron-Gronski
Cheers!
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It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387721 - 09/03/20 01:26 PM
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Can you get us better information about the protection devices used on The End? It has a custom IC that provides protection data, and there's a PAL16R8 that also provides protection-related functionality.
If not, then no.
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Re: It depends
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#387723 - 09/03/20 02:41 PM
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Sorry,I don't really understand the technical aspect of ROMs and emulation.
But just to be clear ,the ROM's name I'm talking about is "theends" by Stern ,not to be confused with the Konami version entitled "theend".
It's a shame that a great game like that doesn't have a proper ROM..
I wish I could help but as a low-tech man I can only play the game not analyse it..lol
Cheers mate!
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387724 - 09/03/20 03:19 PM
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> Sorry,I don't really understand the technical aspect of ROMs and emulation.
> But just to be clear ,the ROM's name I'm talking about is "theends" by Stern ,not to
> be confused with the Konami version entitled "theend".
> It's a shame that a great game like that doesn't have a proper ROM..
> I wish I could help but as a low-tech man I can only play the game not analyse
> it..lol
> Cheers mate!
The ROM is dumped just fine, it's just not emulated correctly. It has a "proper ROM", dude.
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Re: It depends
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#387725 - 09/03/20 03:39 PM
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Thanks MooglyGuy for the quick reply!
So.. to whom Do I turn to in order to get the game emulated correctly? Will it have to be a new dumped ROM starting from scratch or could the old ROM be changed and modified?
Thanks
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387727 - 09/03/20 05:14 PM
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Re: It depends
[Re: Robbbert]
#387729 - 09/03/20 05:41 PM
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Hi Robbert
I assure you that I have no intention to harass anyone.
I'm new to this site and I have zero knowledge about ROM emulating.
All I asked for is information about a game that I love and I did not realize that that would bother anybody.
Sorry if that's the case
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387730 - 09/03/20 05:45 PM
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Let me try to explain at a basic level...
Arcade games are made up of many rom chips - there could be rom chips for audio, video, logic, etc. - and the various circuits that connect them all together. The goal of MAME is to document and emulate the entire circuit, not just specific roms. So, just because a game is not working, it doesn't mean that a specific rom is bad. In this case, the instructions in the roms are correct, but the rest of the circuit emulation is not complete. In this case, there is a protection component that is not understood, so it cannot be emulated at this time. The only way to get the protection circuit emulated is to study the component and write the proper emulation for it. So, unless you can help with the decryption of the component, then you will have to wait until that work is done by someone else who has the expertise in that field. There is nothing more that can be done, so please stop trying to request workarounds just to get the game to work.
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Re: It depends
[Re: Moochieone]
#387731 - 09/03/20 05:53 PM
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Thanks Moochieone for the explanation,got it.
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387740 - 09/04/20 01:02 PM
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> Thanks MooglyGuy for the quick reply!
> So.. to whom Do I turn to in order to get the game emulated correctly? Will it have
> to be a new dumped ROM starting from scratch or could the old ROM be changed and
> modified?
> Thanks
As Moochi explained, we need to understand a lot of things from the original hardware.
If you love this game but can't provide the technical things to emulate properly, you can help donating an original PCB for reverse-engineering purposes.
At least it's a start.
Robbie.
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-- Risen from my grave --
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Hi Roberto,thanks!
I would have loved to donate an original Stern PCB but unfortunately I have only two left.. lol
just kidding..
I could help donate money in order to buy one
Cheers!
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387742 - 09/05/20 01:05 AM
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Let me give you a simple rule of thumb since you're new to these forums. Coming in and asking them to fix a game that YOU want, without offering any real help is greatly frowned on. We all have games we want to be fixed and working someday. If you can't provide a PCB, or contribute any help towards coding or research, then all you're doing is nagging the devs and they don't appreciate it. They all do this for free and generally they work on the projects that interest them. So if a dev eventually is interested in getting this game to work, then they will work on it. So, in theory, it could never be emulated fully if other projects interest the dev's more than this one.
I'm not trying to harass you, or insult you. I apologize if I come across that way. I just want you to understand why you're seeing some heat coming your way and to hopefully understand that the dev's don't like requests, without having the resources and skills to contribute towards the project. There answer will essentially be, that if you want something working in MAME, then do it yourself, otherwise don't ask
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Re: It depends
[Re: Envisaged0ne]
#387743 - 09/05/20 01:19 AM
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Thanks Ensivagrone!
Yeah,I understand,no hard feelings
Thank you all
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: DOR]
#387744 - 09/05/20 01:26 AM
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> Stern "The End" is a FANTASTIC Arcade game but it got a poor emulation.
> The ROM "theends" has many bugs in it and missing elements.
> The last attack stage keeps repeating itself and you never get to the bricks
> subtracting stage which is crucial if you want to get a high score. The stage of the
> single alien attack is also missing. Oh and there is this Bug which gives you
> infinite lives every time you get to a score of about 20000 points (although that
> won't help you much since the bricks keep forming the words "the end" -remember the
> missing bricks subtraction stage).
> A couple of years ago,I submitted a game at TG which got rejected because of the
> problems in the emulation.
> Since then I always hoped that someday this game will get emulated properly as it it
> is a gem of a game!
> Here's my rejected effort:
> https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/182230-M-A-M-E-The-End-Stern-Points-46-400-Doron-Gronski
> Cheers!
Somebody did attempt to improve it a few years back, but possibly even made it worse, or at best just made it fail in different ways.
The problem is the protection maintains some kind of state machine for the game, and even the correct original behaviour isn't fully understood (the hacks / bootlegs seem to be questionable in their logic)
It's probably done with a 'simple' PAL, but those can have quite complex behaviour.
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: Haze]
#387745 - 09/05/20 01:56 AM
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Thank you Haze!
Sadly I'm getting used to the idea that I would never play this game as there are no classic Arcade halls in my country and now I understand that there's a slim chance to ever see a properly emulated ROM for this one.
Cheers!
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387746 - 09/05/20 04:29 AM
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Please understand that all is not "gloom and doom". There is continuing work being done on various projects, and new information comes through on a regular basis.
See post here about Gorf: https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh...part=1&vc=1
As stated earlier, any significant information towards various projects are much appreciated and can lead to further developments. Now that you know, please keep an eye out on any information you may come across and post accordingly.
Unfortunately, we see a ton of people who join the forum only to harass the development community because they want to play a certain game without fully understanding the effort and expertise involved. And, because they refuse to contribute, they get mad, and are eventually booted or leave the forum with a bad impression. Over time, you can see how this attitude can affect the developers.
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: DOR]
#387747 - 09/05/20 07:16 AM
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Because there are no warning flags like graphics or protection, this could have been easily suitable for a MameTesters bug report. I honestly didn't know the Stern version of The End even had protection to begin with.
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-.-
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: Hydreigon]
#387748 - 09/05/20 10:20 AM
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Thanks Moochione and Hydreigon
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| gregf |
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Re: will Stern's "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: DOR]
#387749 - 09/05/20 03:10 PM
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>Sadly I'm getting used to the idea that I would never play this game as there are no
>classic Arcade halls in my country and now I understand that there's a slim chance to ever
>see a properly emulated ROM for this one.
There have been far worse case scenarios in the past that eventually get resolved/fixed such past examples would be Taito C-chips being handled to get data extracted so some Taito games eventually become playable. Same with Gaelco games with mcu that Morten (unfortunately now gone) was able to work on and get those games rescued and playable.
Robbie's (Roberto Fresca) post is the simplest start in order to try and get the game properly preserved. It will take time, but a pcb should be available for purchase if really wanting to see the game eventually be playable.
Maybe someone already has a pcb of the game, but some effort (on user's side) would be needed to get things started from the user's end in order to get any possible progress underway.
Fortunately the hardware is scramble hardware ....so it might be possible to find a pcb with this hardware compared to say a 1970s era Sega non-cpu video game that is not a Sega Monaco GP pcb.
Make sure the pcb is a Konami brand pcb that is either Konami's version or if it has Stern's version. Avoid the bootleg pcbs. There should be a pcb photo of non-bootleg Konami pcb on line for reference in case of wanting to get a Konami pcb.
--
https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/galaxian.cpp
// The End/Scramble based hardware
GAME( 1980, theend, "Konami", "The End", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
GAME( 1980, theends, "Konami (Stern Electronics license)", "The End (Stern Electronics)", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
GAME( 1981, theendss, "bootleg (Sonic)", "The End (SegaSA / Sonic)",
MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
GAME( 1981, takeoff, "bootleg (Sidam)", "Take Off (bootleg of The End)", MACHINE_WRONG_COLORS | MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE ) // colors likely need bitswap
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Re: It depends
[Re: Moochieone]
#387750 - 09/05/20 03:21 PM
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>Unfortunately, we see a ton of people who join the forum only to harass the development
>community because they want to play a certain game without fully understanding the effort
>and expertise involved. And, because they refuse to contribute, they get mad, and are
>eventually booted or leave the forum with a bad impression. Over time, you can see how
>this attitude can affect the developers.
*remembers the "When will those Capcom CPS2 gamez be working? I wanner pleyz Dark Stalkerz....gibberz nowz."
Those types of posts were appearing 5 times per day whether on any Retrogames forum including Gridle's old MAME.net web site from years 1999 through 2002 even though Razoola had a temporary XOR file solution to load those Capcom games.
There might have been a neat thread on old MAME.net forum sometime in years 1999 to 2002 and then it gets interrupted by another kiddies CPS-2 request.
*waiting for Exidy Death Race kiddies romz play gamez begs one of these days* 
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| TrevEB |
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Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
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Re: It depends
[Re: gregf]
#387761 - 09/06/20 09:33 PM
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On the positive side:
Your post does bring light to a title that may have been overlooked over time.
Stern’s The End is or at least was in my friends collection as I scanned the bezel years ago.
If additional information can be gleamed without damaging the PCB, I can borrow it for a time and bring it to Andrew for study.
TrevEB
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Re: It depends
[Re: TrevEB]
#387769 - 09/07/20 10:24 AM
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> On the positive side:
> Your post does bring light to a title that may have been overlooked over time.
>
> Stern’s The End is or at least was in my friends collection as I scanned the bezel
> years ago.
>
> If additional information can be gleamed without damaging the PCB, I can borrow it
> for a time and bring it to Andrew for study.
>
> TrevEB
Hi TrevEB
That would be brilliant!
Thank you so much Trev for keeping my hope alive.
Cheers mate
Doron
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: Hydreigon]
#387849 - 09/12/20 08:16 PM
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> Because there are no warning flags like graphics or protection, this could have been
> easily suitable for a MameTesters bug report. I honestly didn't know the Stern
> version of The End even had protection to begin with.
all versions do, it just manifests in different ways.
Mixmaster was the one claiming to have fixed it a few year ago, but really didn't, if anything it got worse.
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387903 - 09/16/20 09:00 PM
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I love this game too as I played it a lot as a kid.
Wasn't aware of these bugs.
Is the original Konami version correctly emulated or has similar issues as the Stern one ?
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Re: It depends
[Re: RaspBear]
#387915 - 09/18/20 02:01 AM
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> I love this game too as I played it a lot as a kid.
> Wasn't aware of these bugs.
> Is the original Konami version correctly emulated or has similar issues as the Stern
> one ?
Hi RaspBear!
A few minutes after reading your post, out of curiosity I downloaded and played this game in the Konami version. Indeed, the same old Bugs exist here,as in the Stern version: the element of the bricks subtracting stage does not exist, the lone mother ship attack does not happen, and you get infinity lives at a certain point. But..one time I did not get infinity lives for some reason, and that was the attempt that beat the TG record..lol (I submitted that game so if you're interested,you can check it out at the TG site)
I personally hate the Konami version as it's very frustrating- your ship is UNDER the bricks so it's ironic that you're trying to defend them while at the same time they get in the way of you trying to shoot their kidnappers.
I think that the Stern version ( in which the ship is ABOVE the bricks) is the superior version of the two and more of a pure shooter.
Cheers!
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#387917 - 09/18/20 09:24 AM
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Thanks for checking.
That's a pity it is not working too.
Fully agree the arcade Stern version is way better than the original Konami.
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Re: Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
[Re: DOR]
#390399 - 03/22/21 09:05 PM
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Just to let all the fans of "The End" out there
know that bezel artwork is finally now available.
Of course I too would love to see it fully emulated one day (no pressure intended).
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UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: DOR]
#392672 - 11/25/21 06:47 PM
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Hi guys
I've downloaded the latest MAME 0.238 and tried to play this game - and it worked!
It turns out that the ROM is emulated just fine but it wasn't compatible with MAME versions up until now
Thank you all for your help and advice
btw you can check out my WR attempt here:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread....77=#post1137877
I'll improve the score in the near future - that's a promise
Cheers!
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: DOR]
#392673 - 11/25/21 10:04 PM
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> Hi guys
>
> I've downloaded the latest MAME 0.238 and tried to play this game - and it worked!
>
> It turns out that the ROM is emulated just fine but it wasn't compatible with MAME
> versions up until now
>
> Thank you all for your help and advice
>
> btw you can check out my WR attempt here:
> https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread....77=#post1137877
>
> I'll improve the score in the near future - that's a promise
> Cheers!
does it really work properly now? I had it glitch out on me in different ways (randomly giving me infinite lives) with the current version of the fix back when the fix was added...
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: Haze]
#392675 - 11/25/21 10:32 PM
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>
> does it really work properly now? I had it glitch out on me in different ways
> (randomly giving me infinite lives) with the current version of the fix back when the
> fix was added...
Yes, it works perfect now - see for yourself in the video.
I don't know about any fix that was added, you see I use the same ROM that I used years ago..
I now use the last MAME (I use WOLFMAME 0.238 so I can submit games to TG) and all the old glitches are gone and the missing elements are now restored -absolute joy!
Cheers!
Edited by DOR (11/25/21 10:32 PM)
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| gregf |
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: Haze]
#392676 - 11/25/21 10:41 PM
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> does it really work properly now? I had it glitch out on me in different ways (randomly giving me infinite lives)
> with the current version of the fix back when the fix was added...
User will probably need to play game with .238 version of MAME until the specific supposed protection chip can be figured out. Going by your post The End issue is probably still there, but fortunately not present during
the user’s gameplay.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: DOR]
#392677 - 11/25/21 11:07 PM
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>> I don't know about any fix that was added,
Haze’s post in this thread from last year.
—
Somebody did attempt to improve it a few years back, but possibly even made it worse, or at best just made it fail in different ways.
The problem is the protection maintains some kind of state machine for the game, and even the correct original behaviour isn't fully understood (the hacks / bootlegs seem to be questionable in their logic)
It's probably done with a 'simple' PAL, but those can have quite complex behaviour.
—
> you see I use the same ROM that I used years ago..
For this issue, the problem doesn’t have anything to do with romfile, but how the rom is handled. With recent work on emulation of Monster Zero, maybe a slim chance that any files associated with galaxian.cpp source got
an update or two that improved gameplay of The End
Good to know that The End is currently playable for now.
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: gregf]
#392682 - 11/27/21 01:15 PM
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> User will probably need to play game with .238 version of MAME until the specific
> supposed protection chip can be figured out. Going by your post The End issue is
> probably still there, but fortunately not present during
> the user’s gameplay.
Thanks Greg
User is happy now..
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: DOR]
#392697 - 11/29/21 11:21 AM
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>> User will probably need to play game with .238 version of MAME until the specific
>> supposed protection chip can be figured out. Going by your post The End issue is
>> probably still there, but fortunately not present during
>> the user’s gameplay.
Thanks Greg
>User is happy now..
I stumbled into my “customer service” mode from my prior work days. I blame
Thanksgiving for that.
Keep in mind with holding onto specific MAME versions since all it might take is another future
Galaxian.cpp refactoring update to possibly mess up gameplay of The End. The specific chip(s) on pcbs of The End have yet to be determined of how they work such as if used for hardware protection etc.
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: gregf]
#392698 - 11/29/21 11:57 AM
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> Keep in mind with holding onto specific MAME versions since all it might take is
> another future
> Galaxian.cpp refactoring update to possibly mess up gameplay of The End
Thanks Greg for the great advice. I WILL hold on to this MAME version as you suggested.
in the meantime as promised I've imroved the score:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread....243#post1138243
Cheers!
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: gregf]
#392699 - 11/29/21 01:20 PM
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> >> User will probably need to play game with .238 version of MAME until the specific
> >> supposed protection chip can be figured out. Going by your post The End issue is
> >> probably still there, but fortunately not present during
> >> the user’s gameplay.
>
>
> Thanks Greg
>
> > User is happy now..
>
> I stumbled into my “customer service” mode from my prior work days. I blame
> Thanksgiving for that.
>
> Keep in mind with holding onto specific MAME versions since all it might take is
> another future
> Galaxian.cpp refactoring update to possibly mess up gameplay of The End. The
> specific chip(s) on pcbs of The End have yet to be determined of how they work such
> as if used for hardware protection etc.
I'm wondering if it's just not save-state friendly, or if F3 resets break the protection state. I'm a bit surprised to hear it's working fine because this was still on my list of 'games that need fixing / are badly emulated' as it didn't seem to work properly for me after testing the fix when it went in.
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Re: UPDATE- - Problem Solved!
[Re: Haze]
#392703 - 11/30/21 04:27 AM
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> I'm wondering if it's just not save-state friendly, or if F3 resets break the
> protection state.
Both, probably. m_protection_result doesn't appear to be saved anywhere in either the driver nor any derived classes. Plus m_protection_state only seems to be saved by zac_scorpion_state::init_scorpion, which isn't (and can't be) called by galaxian_state::init_theend. Neither member is initialized in any constructor or derived constructor.
So for theend at least, DOR seems to just be getting lucky that both pieces of data are being initialized to a "good" state, loading a savestate will certainly not restore whatever values they had when saving, and in either case, resetting using F3 will probably not result in either value being valid for power-on.
What's particualrly baffling is that all of the drivers in galaxian.cpp seem to be marked with MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE, when they pretty clearly haven't been vetted for all used driver members being registered for saving. Either that or any members that have been added since they were marked as such haven't been added to the registration list.
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Re: It depends
[Re: RaspBear]
#392717 - 12/03/21 01:15 AM
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> I love this game too as I played it a lot as a kid.
> Wasn't aware of these bugs.
> Is the original Konami version correctly emulated or has similar issues as the Stern
> one ?
The Konami version now works as well
I've just played and submitted this:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread....0-Doron-Gronski
Cheers! 😀
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Re: It depends
[Re: DOR]
#392718 - 12/03/21 01:19 AM
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Gonna try it asap, thanks !!
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Will the ROM of Stern "The End" get fixed someday?
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