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HLSL changes by anikom15
#382317 - 05/06/19 01:24 AM
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Hello,
can somebody tell me at which version of MAME, anikom15 started to make changes in HLSL?
I hope i can create a working .diff for myself. As there are no new features with latest HLSL of any value, i might have a chance to use a old HLSL system (the last before anikom15 touched it) with newest MAME release.
All these HLSL changes just look terrible at least. Not a single interesting feature added, just ugly looking parameters nobody wants and needs. Especially all the unequal (default) values for RGB parameters, making it a nightmare to work with.
Vector games looking so utterly wrong, that even the video software mode at default settings looks better, than this shit.
At current state, you can not create anything interesting and good looking, with HLSL and vector games.
Edited by uman (05/06/19 01:27 AM)
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Tafoid |
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382319 - 05/06/19 01:52 AM
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> Hello,
>
> can somebody tell me at which version of MAME, anikom15 started to make changes in
> HLSL?
>
> I hope i can create a working .diff for myself. As there are no new features with
> latest HLSL of any value, i might have a chance to use a old HLSL system (the last
> before anikom15 touched it) with newest MAME release.
>
> All these HLSL changes just look terrible at least. Not a single interesting feature
> added, just ugly looking parameters nobody wants and needs. Especially all the
> unequal (default) values for RGB parameters, making it a nightmare to work with.
>
> Vector games looking so utterly wrong, that even the video software mode at default
> settings looks better, than this shit.
>
> At current state, you can not create anything interesting and good looking, with HLSL
> and vector games.
Not to stir things up too much, I'm of the opinion that HLSL as a stand alone Direct X9.0c construct will not be around too much longer. Shackling the project to an old/outdated DirectX verison when a much more compatible BGFX shader chain for HLSL is available will likely be the near term future for it all and allowing many OS's access to such features - not just Windows. The less we have unique to any particular OS in the end means more coherent function and execution for everyone. This is information as I understand it and AFAIK there has been no discussion to speak against it.
Personally, I don't have much interest either way for HLSL. I care much, much more for accurate emulation of the game itself, not added effects.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Tafoid]
#382321 - 05/06/19 02:54 AM
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> Not to stir things up too much, I'm of the opinion that HLSL as a stand alone Direct
> X9.0c construct will not be around too much longer. Shackling the project to an
> old/outdated DirectX verison when a much more compatible BGFX shader chain for HLSL
> is available will likely be the near term future for it all and allowing many OS's
> access to such features - not just Windows. The less we have unique to any particular
> OS in the end means more coherent function and execution for everyone. This is
> information as I understand it and AFAIK there has been no discussion to speak
> against it.
>
> Personally, I don't have much interest either way for HLSL. I care much, much more
> for accurate emulation of the game itself, not added effects.
I wish i could agree with you regarding bgfx, but bgfx is no comparison vs. hlsl (the old one, before anikom15 changes) when it comes to vector games. It is slower (if artwork is involved) and it still misses many parameters that hlsl has. I also would agree with you, that accurate emulation is more important, but there was not much of a change in decades when it comes to vector games and vector games have a "special" look, that you can not create without "effects", no matter how accurate the emulation is, but accuration can help to make that effects look even better.
I would not bother with MAME, if there would not be CRT simulation, to be honest. In fact, it is the only reason, why i play c64, amiga, etc. on MAME and not on maybe better alternatives.
Personally, i just want to know, when that anikom15 changes touched hlsl the first time, so that i can make a .diff.
Edited by uman (05/06/19 02:55 AM)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382325 - 05/06/19 11:05 AM
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No idea if it's got anything to do with the actual changes by anikom15 or more with the default settings, because whether you look at the d3d or the bgfx port, they look terrible.
So first thing people seek is to modify using the settings in the OSD...but several are obscure and there's no explanative documentation with provided neutral default values available anywhere, afaik.
Then the bigger issue becomes obvious: whatever you do in the OSD - which is of course the preferred way coz you see your changes in real time - doesn't save.
You have to edit files manually, which isn't too hard to learn for the d3d version (raster.ini) but much more obscure in BGFX.
I think I've read some time here that saving CRT shaders OSD settings in BGFX is something planned for the future, but you know these things are not top-of-todo-list because they're not related to emulation work proper.
So either you research the intricate settings files to edit (good luck getting the kind of CRT look you want that way) while waiting for saving to be a thing, either you give up on CRT shaders in MAME and you know where to find a more advanced system: RetroArch, which is the only thing that frontend is actually good for.
edit: correction the settings are explained but in the Windows/D3D section actually: http://docs.mamedev.org/advanced/hlsl.html
they're mostly the same in BGFX port iirc, the only difficulty is to understand how to edit the related files, it's not a .ini
And for geom er, dunno...
Edited by LensLarque (05/06/19 11:45 AM)
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382326 - 05/06/19 12:48 PM
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> No idea if it's got anything to do with the actual changes by anikom15 or more with
> the default settings, because whether you look at the d3d or the bgfx port, they look
> terrible.
> So first thing people seek is to modify using the settings in the OSD...but several
> are obscure and there's no explanative documentation with provided neutral default
> values available anywhere, afaik.
> Then the bigger issue becomes obvious: whatever you do in the OSD - which is of
> course the preferred way coz you see your changes in real time - doesn't save.
> You have to edit files manually, which isn't too hard to learn for the d3d version
> (raster.ini) but much more obscure in BGFX.
> I think I've read some time here that saving CRT shaders OSD settings in BGFX is
> something planned for the future, but you know these things are not top-of-todo-list
> because they're not related to emulation work proper.
> So either you research the intricate settings files to edit (good luck getting the
> kind of CRT look you want that way) while waiting for saving to be a thing, either
> you give up on CRT shaders in MAME and you know where to find a more advanced system:
> RetroArch, which is the only thing that frontend is actually good for.
>
> edit: correction the settings are explained but in the Windows/D3D section actually:
> http://docs.mamedev.org/advanced/hlsl.html
> they're mostly the same in BGFX port iirc, the only difficulty is to understand how
> to edit the related files, it's not a .ini
> And for geom er, dunno...
I hate to say this. RetroArch have a slowdown when using those. Be better on MAME than RetroArch. Unless RetroArch DEV fix that slowdown issue.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Dullaron]
#382327 - 05/06/19 01:07 PM
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> I hate to say this. RetroArch have a slowdown when using those. Be better on MAME
> than RetroArch. Unless RetroArch DEV fix that slowdown issue.
Never experienced slowdowns because of CRT shaders in RA myself, must be your system or settings, it probably comes from something else...really, I even combined lag reduction (hard gpu sync) with those without problem, but it's damn heavy.
Some shaders are very lightweight but less realistic than HLSL or Geom.
RetroArch isn't easier to configure than MAME nor without its issues, you can do everything via OSD and the shader settings save, but its a real mess that takes as much time to get used to.
At the end what matters is that you get what you want. Personally the reason I don't use RA as a main solution is that MAME doesn't work as well in there as the vanilla, and it lacks access to some options I need which is infuriating.
EDIT: I think I remember something related that might be the slodowns you mention, in retroarch if you edit the shaders settings live in the OSD then use the secondary menus to save, you will get slowdowns that might stick. To be honest I get slowdowns while setting shaders in MAME too, but they're gone when I exit the OSD.
If you want to edit and save without slowdonwns in RA iirc you have to edit the files and comment-out some lines, I don't remember clearly, but doing it in that fashion makes it as obscure and complicated as doing it from BGFX's .json files.
Bet if people like RA's shaders system more is bc you can still configure settings via OSD and save that way, and there's more choice (plus the lag reduction) although overall it is not much more convenient in practice.
Edited by LensLarque (05/06/19 01:38 PM)
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382329 - 05/06/19 02:40 PM
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> No idea if it's got anything to do with the actual changes by anikom15 or more with
> the default settings, because whether you look at the d3d or the bgfx port, they look
> terrible.
> So first thing people seek is to modify using the settings in the OSD...but several
> are obscure and there's no explanative documentation with provided neutral default
> values available anywhere, afaik.
> Then the bigger issue becomes obvious: whatever you do in the OSD - which is of
> course the preferred way coz you see your changes in real time - doesn't save.
> You have to edit files manually, which isn't too hard to learn for the d3d version
> (raster.ini) but much more obscure in BGFX.
> I think I've read some time here that saving CRT shaders OSD settings in BGFX is
> something planned for the future, but you know these things are not top-of-todo-list
> because they're not related to emulation work proper.
> So either you research the intricate settings files to edit (good luck getting the
> kind of CRT look you want that way) while waiting for saving to be a thing, either
> you give up on CRT shaders in MAME and you know where to find a more advanced system:
> RetroArch, which is the only thing that frontend is actually good for.
>
> edit: correction the settings are explained but in the Windows/D3D section actually:
> http://docs.mamedev.org/advanced/hlsl.html
> they're mostly the same in BGFX port iirc, the only difficulty is to understand how
> to edit the related files, it's not a .ini
> And for geom er, dunno...
Yes, i am aware of all this stuff. I was kind of a guinea pig for Jezze, who did the HLSL changes previously. I tried the whole night, to achieve the same results with current MAME, without any luck.
Editing related BGFX files is easy. You simply edit the parameters in .json files (mame>bgfx>effects).
Slider change saves, where always problematic. It was the first feature that was cutoff after initial release of HLSL.
I believe that the anikom15 changes, where a first step to enable HDR in MAME, but it was never finished. So we are left with something, that looks more worse then before and with parameters that have no real meaning in current state.
For example Space Zap: http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...true#Post379509
This problem still persists till today, in both systems hlsl & bgfx, due to (what it seems) his changes.
No, Retroarch is no option (for me), because it does not offer anything, regarding vector games. It is pretty much useless, when it comes to these kind of games.
Beside the fact that Retroarch offers barely better shaders. Thanks to Moogly Guy, Jezze and cgwg, MAME has nearly everything (sometimes even more, like in vector games) that Retroarch have, regarding the shaders.
In the meantime, someone pointed me to this: https://git.redump.net/mame/log/?qt=grep&q=anikom
I can see when the changes happened, i am just to dumb to see in which MAME version it happened, but i will find out.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382330 - 05/06/19 03:09 PM
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> Editing related BGFX files is easy. You simply edit the parameters in .json files
> (mame>bgfx>effects).
Says you! I gave up honestly, couldn't relate to what I was actually doing and having to set-try-goback-set-try-goback-set-try-etc a hundred times and still not getting the look I wanted tired me away from the thing. I use d3d and the raster.ini, easier, faster less trouble.
> Slider change saves, where always problematic. It was the first feature that was
> cutoff after initial release of HLSL.
Yet editing with sliders is the best thing, and having those settings save directly is what everyone expects in the end, no need to edit files manually that's why RA's shader systerm is popular even if it's badly made.
I guess if that's not implemented in MAME yet is because it's a big deal technically speaking to make that work right.
> I believe that the anikom15 changes, where a first step to enable HDR in MAME, but it
> was never finished. So we are left with something, that looks more worse then before
> and with parameters that have no real meaning in current state.
Can't say I have noticed since I always start from a more or less cleaned up raster.ini, basically copying most default values from the mame.ini (esp the colors-related)
And I don't use all HLSL effects.
Again I might be wrong and misunderstanding your point, but I think the problem is that MAME is delivered with unwanted setting by default instead of the most neutral, both in d3d and bgfx, and that's what we see when activating it.
> the fact that Retroarch offers barely better shaders.
Ouch er, I wouldn't say that, there's nothing as great as Royale yet for instance. Rather what's in MAME now is decent enough, but I'm sure there will be more in the future anyway.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382331 - 05/06/19 03:51 PM
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I agree with people who say that HLSL won't be aroung forever. And as soon as you get used to BGFX and know which parameters to edit in .json files, you won't want to go back to HLSL never again. BGFX is the way to go for sure.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: R.Coltrane]
#382332 - 05/06/19 03:58 PM
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> and know which parameters to edit in .json files, you won't want to go
> back to HLSL never again.
Too unpractical. I went back to d3d's HLSL for that reason.
No way BGFX is going to be popular enough against retroarch as long as there's no saving the CRT shaders settings directly from the OSD, nor any means to reduce the input delay a bit at the same time.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382333 - 05/06/19 04:21 PM
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> Again I might be wrong and misunderstanding your point, but I think the problem is
> that MAME is delivered with unwanted setting by default instead of the most neutral,
> both in d3d and bgfx, and that's what we see when activating it.
>
> > the fact that Retroarch offers barely better shaders.
> Ouch er, I wouldn't say that, there's nothing as great as Royale yet for instance.
> Rather what's in MAME now is decent enough, but I'm sure there will be more in the
> future anyway.
Yes, you are misunderstanding my point, because the changes that anikom15 did, are not just changed values in a parameter setting. He changed the shader itself. So you can drag, push, pull sliders or change values all day, but you will not get a nearly result, like it was before his changes. It has nothing to do with the presets or creating new ones.
Yes, the Royale shader from RA is the holy grail, but it is just slightly better. It is not a super innovation or something completely different from any CRT shader in MAME.
Like i said, i just want to revert the changes by anikom15 and create a .diff for my personal use. I am not here to discuss, if and when hlsl will be gone forever or if bgfx is better or the worst... changing to RA and leaving MAME, in favor for shaders or "input lag".
This at least, is the topic i want to discuss.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382334 - 05/06/19 05:16 PM
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Sorry no intent to irritate.
I may have not noticed bc I rarely play vector games myself, but anyway you're talking about the changes from 0.202~0.203, probably.
edit: specifically in 0.202 then seems to match your link.
Quote:
. VIDEO RENDERING SYSTEM
. HLSL
. Apply scanline effect before defocus effect and moved scanline effect into separate shader. Port scanline modification to BGFX.
. Fixed not set default uniforms for vector pass (render\d3d\d3dhlsl.cpp)
. A better way of doing scanline timers (machine\timer.h; (MESS) apple2e.cpp)
. Generate layouts for dual-screen machines rather than loading dualhsxs.lay. This ensures aspect ratio is correct for non-4:3 screens (emu\render.cpp).
. Allow watchdog timer to take any tag-like for the screen tag rather than only C strings (foodf.cpp, galaga.cpp, gottlieb.cpp, grchamp.cpp, mcr3.cpp, missile.cpp, polepos.cpp, rampart.cpp, sbrkout.cpp, sprint2.cpp, sprint4.cpp, tecmosys.cpp, toobin.cpp and ultratnk.cpp)
. Fixed palette-related asserts in ddragon.cpp, efdt.cpp, peplus.cpp, royalmah.cpp, spoker.cpp, system16.cpp, taito_h.cpp and wardner.cpp
. Replaced a fail-safe in util\palette.cpp with an assert. Expect regressions, so better to get it out of the way now.
. Added read functions for paletteram_ext (emu\emupal.cpp)
Quote:
. VIDEO RENDERING SYSTEM
. Fixed BGFX not rendering in multiple windows. Internal UI is still glitchy (osd\windows\window.cpp).
. HLSL Color Transforms and 3D LUT
. Removed broken scanline uniform from post_pass
. Added 3D LUT to HLSL
. Allow individual LUTs for screen and UI
. Added individual phosphor color conversion for HLSL: Shader for converting xyY3 to sRGB (hlsl\chroma.fx). Minor changes to emphasize idea that phosphors are color agnostic (hlsl\phosphor.fx). Conversion from signal RGB to xyY3 (hlsl\post.fx).
. Added phosphor examples and update presets
. Port 3D LUT and phosphor color shaders to BGFX
. Get rid of LCD_FRAMES_PER_SECOND (emu\video.h; (MESS) comquest.cpp, lynx.cpp and ssystem3.cpp)
. UFixed compilation with libjpeg for environments where TRUE and FALSE aren't preprocessor macros (emu\rendutil.cpp).
Edited by LensLarque (05/06/19 05:25 PM)
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382335 - 05/06/19 05:40 PM
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That where the last changes he made.
The first where made 2016-12-13. So its probably around the 0.19+ area or even earlier.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382342 - 05/07/19 02:11 PM
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> > and know which parameters to edit in .json files, you won't want to go
> > back to HLSL never again.
>
> Too unpractical. I went back to d3d's HLSL for that reason.
> No way BGFX is going to be popular enough against retroarch as long as there's no
> saving the CRT shaders settings directly from the OSD, nor any means to reduce the
> input delay a bit at the same time.
That's why retroarch is a piece of crap. Of course BGFX will survive to that crap because it works fine in MAME, which will be around wayyy more than that retroarch mess of a "project".
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: R.Coltrane]
#382344 - 05/07/19 02:38 PM
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> That's why retroarch is a piece of crap. Of course BGFX will survive to that crap
> because it works fine in MAME, which will be around wayyy more than that retroarch
> mess of a "project".
Please stop that discussion.
First changes of anikom15 where made in 0.181 MAME.
Now it is time to make a working .diff of 0.180 MAME and the current one.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382345 - 05/07/19 02:59 PM
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Could you post comparisons of these terrible changes you're talking about?
Are you 100% sure that they're not actual fixes?
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: ICEknight]
#382346 - 05/07/19 03:07 PM
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I am pretty sure, that these are cosmetic changes with one part being some kind of a beta- HDR support.
And yes, i will make comparisons/screenshots, once i am done with the .diff file.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: R.Coltrane]
#382353 - 05/07/19 08:06 PM
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> > > and know which parameters to edit in .json files, you won't want to go
> > > back to HLSL never again.
> >
> > Too unpractical. I went back to d3d's HLSL for that reason.
> > No way BGFX is going to be popular enough against retroarch as long as there's no
> > saving the CRT shaders settings directly from the OSD, nor any means to reduce the
> > input delay a bit at the same time.
>
> That's why retroarch is a piece of crap. Of course BGFX will survive to that crap
> because it works fine in MAME, which will be around wayyy more than that retroarch
> mess of a "project".
No that's why it wins. Guess some people are so delusional they can only perceive the opposite of reality no matter the facts. RetroArch is more popular than vanilla MAME and it keeps growing, even if it's badly made, because it offers those features. MAME with BGFX will earn back popularity ONLY when the CRT shader will save from OSD, and when it will have input delay reduction, and those are minimal conditions.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382356 - 05/07/19 08:34 PM
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> > > > and know which parameters to edit in .json files, you won't want to go
> > > > back to HLSL never again.
> > >
> > > Too unpractical. I went back to d3d's HLSL for that reason.
> > > No way BGFX is going to be popular enough against retroarch as long as there's no
> > > saving the CRT shaders settings directly from the OSD, nor any means to reduce
> the
> > > input delay a bit at the same time.
> >
> > That's why retroarch is a piece of crap. Of course BGFX will survive to that crap
> > because it works fine in MAME, which will be around wayyy more than that retroarch
> > mess of a "project".
>
> No that's why it wins. Guess some people are so delusional they can only perceive the
> opposite of reality no matter the facts. RetroArch is more popular than vanilla MAME
> and it keeps growing, even if it's badly made, because it offers those features. MAME
> with BGFX will earn back popularity ONLY when the CRT shader will save from OSD, and
> when it will have input delay reduction, and those are minimal conditions.
RetroArch is an absolute piece of shit, and there are so many other reasons to not be using it.
If it's growing in popularity it's only because people are stupid / lazy / both and the RA devs will do anything for 'mass appeal' no matter what consequence / impact it might have on the rest of the scene.
Unfortunately competing with that lack of morals is tricky.
Single worst thing to happen in the 20 years I've been involved in emulation and probably the one thing, if any, that will make me become disillusioned enough with emulation to give it up completely (although I have a feeling plenty of people are still hoping for that day)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382357 - 05/07/19 08:54 PM
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> RetroArch is an absolute piece of shit, and there are so many other reasons to not be
> using it.
Indeed.
> If it's growing in popularity it's only because people are stupid / lazy /
No because they very legitimately want features like CRT shaders they actualy understand how to control, and very legitimately don't want to play with unwanted additional frames of delay.
> Unfortunately competing with that lack of morals is tricky.
No you just have to acknowledge people aren't stupid and that it's very moral to want to experience the games closer to what they remember, how they looked and felt, it's only natural, and that's a desire for preservation too.
You also have to aknowledge that they weren't fed with coding, editing, hardware and programming knowledge all their lives like you, MAME's only been growing in complexity for users and the more it does the more users it loses.
Get such features in MAME, make it more users friendly - you'd do that infinitely better than RetroArch no doubt about it - and you'll obsolete RA and win back the love.
> Single worst thing to happen in the 20 years I've been involved in emulation.
Yes, that, and MAME's tunnel vision, refusal to see reality is a close second.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382361 - 05/07/19 10:07 PM
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> > RetroArch is an absolute piece of shit, and there are so many other reasons to not
> be
> > using it.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > If it's growing in popularity it's only because people are stupid / lazy /
>
> No because they very legitimately want features like CRT shaders they actualy
> understand how to control, and very legitimately don't want to play with unwanted
> additional frames of delay.
>
> > Unfortunately competing with that lack of morals is tricky.
>
> No you just have to acknowledge people aren't stupid and that it's very moral to want
> to experience the games closer to what they remember, how they looked and felt, it's
> only natural, and that's a desire for preservation too.
> You also have to aknowledge that they weren't fed with coding, editing, hardware and
> programming knowledge all their lives like you, MAME's only been growing in
> complexity for users and the more it does the more users it loses.
> Get such features in MAME, make it more users friendly - you'd do that infinitely
> better than RetroArch no doubt about it - and you'll obsolete RA and win back the
> love.
>
> > Single worst thing to happen in the 20 years I've been involved in emulation.
>
> Yes, that, and MAME's tunnel vision, refusal to see reality is a close second.
Problem is it's tip of the iceberg.
Yes, there are BGFX problems which mean BGFX can't be the primary video output (and why D3D is still around as we're not that stupid as to remove it while that is still a problem)
However, even if we get down to the minimum possible lag they undermine it with gross hacks to take it lower than it was ever even meant to be.
Even if we do perfect rendering, they push cores that hack things to higher resolutions, widescreen etc.
Even if we try to offer proper audio/video sync so that the emulation is reliable, they hack refresh rates, breaking it, without even caring because the edge cases are less common than the popular games.
Even if we improve the emulation, they keep offering older cores, keep bad romsets in circulation etc. resulting in more and more people running bad old emulation because they keep sharing those sets and cores. It kills progress by keeping zombie cores and emulators alive.
Even now we've changed our license to allow commercial use, products keep using them and bypassing non-commercial licenses because RA has a core downloader that will happily do that, regardless of if it's being used in a commercial product or not, undermining both the relicensing work and the will of the non-commercial projects too.
We could do everything perfectly (and in many areas MAME is still VASTLY superior) and they undermine the good work in the scene with dirty tactics that are impossible to compete against due to smooth PR, buzzwords, and appealing to the lowest common denominator. The thing is a cancer.
Trying to suggest that small changes would make a difference at this point I still think is naive because MAME is competing with something that is morally bankrupt.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382362 - 05/07/19 10:56 PM
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> Problem is it's tip of the iceberg.
>
> Yes, there are BGFX problems which mean BGFX can't be the primary video output (and
> why D3D is still around as we're not that stupid as to remove it while that is still
> a problem)
Can't you make BGFX force the use of only 1 frame for vsync instead of the usual 3 ?
I've read somewhere that it should be possible by now.
With that we'd get something the equivalent of the legacy D3D9ex, which represent only a minimal decrease in delay, but I know people who've tried it were very pleased, having for instance a game that's about 2 frames + 3 frames queue is crap, but 2 frame + 1 makes a good difference, plus it has no performance cost (well with d3d9ex it doesn't)
It's only a small thing until MAME's got something more advanced for input delay mitigation, but a gesture that would be very welcome anyway.
Remember MAME works badly in RA and some people would very well appreciate to play the real MAME and still have a benefit like that.
> they
> they
> they
> they
> commercial
> commercial
If you would stop obsessing over 'them' and and whoever for a moment, I'm talking about how to make MAME more appealing and friendly so people stop saying 'ew vanilla MAME is too hard to use, has too much input delay, etc'
> We could do everything perfectly (and in many areas MAME is still VASTLY superior)
You don't have to do it 'perfectly', or you could and take all the time you need for that. That's not what I'm talking about, just stop leaving it in a state that's almost the complete opposite of what people seek, so until the day you are ready for 'perfect' at least users can benefit and enjoy a least a little better.
Asking for things like crt shaders sliders saveable directly at the OSD, or a minimal input delay mitigation setting, is not asking you to destroy MAME, it's not asking you to make it another RetroArch.
> Trying to suggest that small changes would make a difference at this point I still
> think is naive because MAME is competing with something that is morally bankrupt.
It's not naive. No, the problem is you have deeply rooted condescension for users who play and love games but aren't super-techie-devs like you, and an irrational exclusively negative vision of them like they're all the same no-fucks-given retroarch and commercial crap adopters.
And while you're fixated on that extreme - and therefore wrong - vision, you don't think of the people who would like to continue to acknowledge MAME's superiority and support it both in word and practice but tell you of issues with it that bother them, seriously and honestly, yet you refuse to consider and always dismiss with whatever excuses you can think of in that sort of paranoid nightmare you live in.
Retroarch is cancer, yes, but at the same time MAME's display of contempt for the users like you show is shooing them away (and consequently in several cases pushing them in the arms of retroarch)
Keep putting all the blame on retroarch and whatever, and the users, keep believeing that you know everything and can't be wrong with what you understand of reality, and oh man, it'll be funny hearing you say things like 'naive'.
Buy a mirror, wake up.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382364 - 05/07/19 11:14 PM
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> Keep putting all the blame on retroarch and whatever, and the users, keep believeing
> that you know everything and can't be wrong with what you understand of reality, and
> oh man, it'll be funny hearing you say things like 'naive'.
> Buy a mirror, wake up.
I'd still say improving that part of MAME is a wasted effort because of it tho.
One day RA will just eat everything, and we'll all have to live under its shitiness and the negative models it encourages. I do hope by that day I've already jumped under a bus or something so I don't have to know it happened tho.
I have a feeling everybody else knows that too, hence why nobody is bothering. RA can apparently find 1000 devs to do this kind of thing, MAME can't find one, and expecting those with more of an interest in emulating things to do it is wrong.
So instead, we just get on with trying to make a difference, emulating what we can and hoping that piece of shit doesn't make that a wasted effort too if somebody decides for good that nothing newer than MAME2003 actually matters because everything 'worthwhile' was already done by then.
But if you want to see these things done, find new devs to do them. I'm pretty sick of people expecting the existing ones to do it and I'm telling you now, it isn't going to happen that way and nagging the existing devs etc. about it is more likely to just get the features ripped out entirely.
If people want to actually give MAME a future against that thing, and genuinely feel this would, they need to start doing it. We're already doing our part.
This thread is doubly annoying because it's ripping apart one of the few people who did actually try to do that (make improvements to the non emulation side with the HLSL improvements)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382365 - 05/07/19 11:29 PM
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> One day RA will just eat everything, and we'll all have to live under its shitiness.
Aaaaaand it goes on. No, it's no fatality, not if you do something about it. You just have to snap out of your crazy trippin and start listening to the users period.
> I do hope by that day I've already jumped under a bus or something so I don't have to
> know it happened tho.
>
> I have a feeling everybody else knows that too, hence why nobody is bothering. RA can
> apparently find 1000 devs to do this kind of thing, MAME can't find one, and
> expecting those with more of an interest in emulating things to do it is wrong.
Get help, really, you're not fine, you're stuck in some sort of delusional nightmare, forget about RetroArch, listen to the users, the people who play games, and make MAME better together with them.
> So instead, we just get on with trying to make a difference
You can't make a difference as long as you continue to despise and ignore the users. You're jeopardizing your project if you don't.
Come back to reality.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382367 - 05/07/19 11:44 PM
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> > One day RA will just eat everything, and we'll all have to live under its
> shitiness.
>
> Aaaaaand it goes on. No, it's no fatality, not if you do something about it. You just
> have to snap out of your crazy trippin and start listening to the users period.
>
> > I do hope by that day I've already jumped under a bus or something so I don't have
> to
> > know it happened tho.
> >
> > I have a feeling everybody else knows that too, hence why nobody is bothering. RA
> can
> > apparently find 1000 devs to do this kind of thing, MAME can't find one, and
> > expecting those with more of an interest in emulating things to do it is wrong.
>
> Get help, really, you're not fine, you're stuck in some sort of delusional nightmare,
> forget about RetroArch, listen to the users, the people who play games, and make MAME
> better together with them.
>
> > So instead, we just get on with trying to make a difference
>
> You can't make a difference as long as you continue to despise and ignore the users.
> You're jeopardizing your project if you don't.
>
> Come back to reality.
as I said, find some new devs to do it.
stop expecting the existing devs to, they won't
trying to bully and insult us into doing what you want won't work, it will just make us care less and less about what you ask, much as I no longer care to work on arcade emulation at all.
if you look at the healthy, productive sides of the project you'll see a distinct difference, new people are joining of their own will, new people are working on things that interest them, the project is getting better.
reach out, beyond these forums, and find the people you need to make that difference in the area you appear to care about and get them to contribute to something that isn't RA.
the reason you're getting a feeling that there are project members who despise users is because of the way users have acted, and your actions are forming part of that. it's never been a user-centric project, and for the health of the project it can't be, but it's only user-hostile if the users themselves start becoming hostile.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382368 - 05/08/19 12:04 AM
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> as I said, find some new devs to do it.
>
> stop expecting the existing devs to, they won't
You're all in the best position to find devs to do something, also I doubt yourselves don't know what to do already.
It's your project, people tell you of some issues honestly and you refuse to listen and consider, you dodge points and proposals, you escape the topics. So your fault if it loses against shit like RetroArch while you don't budge.
Stop pushing the all blame on anyone but mamedev.
> trying to bully and insult us
Bully? Insult? Look who's talking! the one who first came calling users stupid and lazy!
Wow...
> into doing what you want won't work, it will just make
> us care less and less about what you ask, much as I no longer care to work on arcade
> emulation at all.
It's fine finding any excuses that work for you, if it keeps you comfortable in your delusional dream.
Funny, it's like in those films where a group under a threat splits because there are those who know they have to take a path they know will give them a chance at safety, and those who stubbornly refuse to move, making up anything self-persuading it's better to stay where they are...unaware that death's coming for them.
MAME is led by that stubborn group. Good luck with the future of your project if you keep being that group.
And good night ------>
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382369 - 05/08/19 12:06 AM
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> > as I said, find some new devs to do it.
> >
> > stop expecting the existing devs to, they won't
>
> You're all in the best position to find devs to do something, also I doubt yourselves
> don't know what to do already.
> It's your project, people tell you of some issues honestly and you refuse to listen
> and consider, you dodge points and proposals, you escape the topics. So your fault if
> it loses against shit like RetroArch while you don't budge.
> Stop pushing the all blame on anyone but mamedev.
>
No, we're not in the best position. This is the WORST assumption people keep making.
We're good at emulating hardware, creating a big picture of the whole computing / hardware / software industry etc.. That doesn't mean we're in the best position to do other things like creating a slick UI experience.
Look at all the big tech firms etc. that seemingly can't get a competent web designer and somehow make their sites worse with each iteration (in part due to mobile I guess)
Look at all the Linux software which is massively powerful but is full of uncomfortable design choices.
In part, yes this is one reason people have moved to RA / LR as they apparently are meant to be all about that (even if in many sense it's a far WORSE user experience than MAME, they know how to sell / market it, which is really their specialization, not UI design or user experience) However, since that's a bad model for so many other reasons we can't just embrace that.
> > trying to bully and insult us
>
> Bully? Insult? Look who's talking! the one who first came calling users stupid and
> lazy!
> Wow...
>
I said that of RA users, because yes, it's a problem. The people still using MAME I'm not saying that about. I consider who have moved to RA for these reasons a lost cause anyway, actually I'm thankful a lot of them have moved on because their toxicity has not been missed. The problem is it's infectious and ends up limiting the availability of both information and resources for those who do want to do it properly which is why long term it's a threat, because whatever is done, it's always going to be the path of least resistance that people will have to actively fight against.
You instead are throwing direct insults at me and seem to continue to demand that we do work that we're not skilled in rather than what we're good at?
I'm not a suitable person for making the changes you want, I don't think any of the existing dev team are, continuing to expect those changes to be made by the current team is madness.
> > into doing what you want won't work, it will just make
> > us care less and less about what you ask, much as I no longer care to work on
> arcade
> > emulation at all.
>
> It's fine finding any excuses that work for you, if it keeps you comfortable in your
> delusional dream.
>
> Funny, it's like in those films where a group under a threat splits because there are
> those who know they have to take a path they know will give them a chance at safety,
> and those who stubbornly refuse to move, making up anything self-persuading it's
> better to stay where they are...unaware that death's coming for them.
> MAME is led by that stubborn group. Good luck with the future of your project if you
> keep being that group.
>
> And good night ------>
I've already said that I expect this to end badly? Just in this case the alternatives are bad too and the death is basically inevitable.
I am also aware of how stubborn the team can be, it took a long time before they realised that doing non arcade stuff was the only way to give the actual emulation side of the project a future too, so for now at least I'm glad we're doing good work and making a difference there. That was a field I knew we could do good work, did have the contacts for, and already had a lot of people interested in working on. The complete opposite of this UI stuff where there is literally nobody with the skills and no interest.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382370 - 05/08/19 12:23 AM
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> I said that of RA users, because yes, it's a problem. The people still using MAME I'm
> not saying that about. I consider who have moved to RA for these reasons a lost cause
> anyway, actually I'm thankful a lot of them have moved on because their toxicity has
> not been missed. The problem is it's infectious.
>
> You instead are throwing direct insults at me.
No, you see, you automatically mingle together people who raise the issues with the retroarch toxic bunch.
Because every time something like input delay of whatever issue that'd make users like MAME more comes in the discussion, you invoke RETROARCH! (so convenient heh?)
You won't consider some of them are indeed idiots, but some went to RetroArch because they have nothing the likes of the features we've discussed available in legit MAME, and you don't even want to consider they would be happy to come back to MAME if you offered something. Like you've dodged discussing the part aout BGFX and frame queue.
It's that problem, every time: RetroArch catches people because they offer some features MAME doesn't have, you refuse to admit the other side of the issue is that MAME doesn't have anything alike.
It's your blatantly dishonest evasive and moving goalposts attitude that is insulting, and your playing the hurt crybaby is hilarious, that doesn't work to mask your pitiful attemps at escaping the embarrassing topics.
And with that good night, for good. Also good night MAME, you were loved, but the fools will ruin you. *sob*
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382371 - 05/08/19 12:41 AM
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> Like you've dodged discussing the part aout BGFX and frame queue.
Maybe, because as I've said multiple times now, the existing team really doesn't know what to do about these issues? Best I know BGFX stuff was implemented to spec, it gives an extra frame of lag, maybe it's an unsuitable piece of middleware and should just be ripped out.
>
> It's your blatantly dishonest evasive and moving goalposts attitude that is
> insulting, and your playing the hurt crybaby is hilarious, that doesn't work to mask
> your pitiful attemps at escaping the embarrassing topics.
>
I don't feel I've done any of those things. I've explained, find developers with a knowledge of these things, get them to contribute to MAME. We'll get on with the parts we know about.
> And with that good night, for good. Also good night MAME, you were loved, but the
> fools will ruin you. *sob*
I think the only fools are those not actually doing anything to help to cause, but instead just demanding the existing team make changes that aren't really within the skillset they have.
There is a community responsibility, especially when it comes to non-emulation stuff which frankly this is.
We're doing everything we can to make the actual emulation better, that's what we're good at. We're specialists, which in terms of real life application is actually a bit of a curse, but was anybody else really going to reverse engineer all that wacky XaviX stuff for example? I'd bet no. Please learn to appreciate the team you have here for the reasons they exist.
Sorry but I'm seeing this 'MAMEdev must do everything by themselves' attitude all over the place lately. I don't know who is seeding it but it is ridiculous. Even when it comes to actually emulating systems it is essential for the community to contribute, but when it comes to maintaining things like UI code that has to work across many different systems, and cater to many different needs it's absolutely *essential* that the community, not the core development team, plays a big role and makes the features work how best suits them.
MAME has been pushing more and more into community hands, that's what the whole lua plugin scheme is for too. We're trying to embrace the community and show that they can be a big part in improving MAME and taking it forward.
If the community lets MAME down, then yes, RA will just take over.
If the community throws its weight behind RA, which, they seem to be doing (for other reasons, none positive on a technical level) rather than contributing improvements to the non-emulation part of MAME then it will simply accelerate MAME's demise. If there are people out there contributing to RA (which isn't even an emulator in the first place) they could be contributing to the non emulation parts of MAME that you want improving; I find it almost inconceivable that nobody has put together a decent mobile target for MAME yet, but those interested in mobile development also seem to be more interested in how easy RA makes it to monetize a lot more than just MAME all at once etc.
The community need to convince people outside of the team to get behind MAME and actually improve these things in MAME so that we can get on with the emulation.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382372 - 05/08/19 12:49 AM
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You're incredible, I want to go to sleep but you continue to be so unbearably dishonest, mg.
> Best I know BGFX stuff was implemented to spec, it
> gives an extra frame of lag
No, three.
> I think the only fools are those not actually doing anything to help to cause, but
> instead just demanding the existing team make changes that aren't really within the
> skillset they have.
Bullshit.
> If the community lets MAME down, then yes, RA will just take over.
If MAME lets the community down (which it very does by ignoring and looking down on user players) then RA will just take over (which is well engaged already, your fault not ours)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382373 - 05/08/19 12:58 AM
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> You're incredible, I want to go to sleep but you continue to be so unbearably
> dishonest, mg.
>
> > Best I know BGFX stuff was implemented to spec, it
> > gives an extra frame of lag
> No, three.
>
Well it was one last time somebody reported it, but as I've said, it's not our field.
> > I think the only fools are those not actually doing anything to help to cause, but
> > instead just demanding the existing team make changes that aren't really within the
> > skillset they have.
> Bullshit.
>
How? Why are you continuing to insist that people without a clue do the work?
> > If the community lets MAME down, then yes, RA will just take over.
> If MAME lets the community down (which it very does by ignoring and looking down on
> user players) then RA will just take over (which is well engaged already, your fault
> not ours)
and vast parts of the community are always going to think this if we don't bend to every request, no matter how detrimental it is to the project. This 'MAME hates users' 'problem' has been around for ages, and is the first thing people shout if they don't like something, be it performance, not overclocking games by default, not trying to map things to 3d hardware in ugly unreliable ways, not having a 'jump straight to title screen' option, emulating mahjong games instead of what people want to see, not maintaining compatibility with every out of date incomplete or broken romset that they could possibly download... it's been brought up so many times over the years as a weapon it's meaningless at this point, most of it isn't even anything that can be reasonably dealt with.
the rest seem to think this because they don't realise that if they want MAME to improve they actually have to put in the work rather than relying on devs with the wrong skills.
RA devs are a bunch of non emulation developers.
MAME devs are a bunch of emulation developers.
RA devs as a result leech off the work done by the actual emulation developers by wrapping it up in their frontend, and getting seemingly every capable frontend developer to contribute to that instead, starving MAME of the non-emulation developers needed all the while presenting themselves as the ultimate gateway to everything emulation to the point where a majority think it's where the real work happens. (which further feeds into the loop of people wanting to be associated with that)
Unless the community can influence that to change, it's not going to change.
Forcing emulation developers to do non emulation work is not the answer, which is all you seem to be pushing for with every single one of your posts.
Ultimately the most likely result is that MAME will abandon everything except the emulation code because there are no new non-emulation devs to maintain the non-emulation code as they all got hoovered up by RA. This will then severely limit what MAME can actually do. If the community wants to avoid that situation, they must do something about it beyond harassing the emulation devs.
If the community lets MAME down, the community lets MAME down, but calling the emulation devs 'fools' just because they don't have an interest in working on things that don't suit their skillset isn't productive, isn't constructive criticism, and instead simply shows a complete lack of understanding.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382374 - 05/08/19 01:05 AM
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What is the point in comparing an emulator frontened with MAME??
Are those filters that make games look unfaithful to their original graphics so important???
Really?...... up to the point of prefering to play arcade games under old mame revisions (cores) inside your "program to open mame"?
That was sooooo stupid, man.
And that program to open MAME is going to beat up MAME.
OMG, We are trembling !
Go to sleep.
Edited by MetalGod (05/08/19 01:09 AM)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382375 - 05/08/19 01:15 AM
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> every request, no matter how detrimental it is to the project.
No not EVRY, you can't put evverything on the same level, some things they ask are unreasonable, some are not and would be worth discussing with user and try something, but you refuse to discuss ANY, making bullshit excuses to wipe away the topic, systematically, makinh excuse like they would be detrimental or you can't do anything, and yest I absolutely call BULLSHIT on that.
Just more of your dodging dishonesty period.
> Unless the community can influence that to change, it's not going to change.
> Forcing emulation developers to do non emulation work is not the answer, which is all
> you seem to be pushing for with every single one of your posts.
You have the wrong idea about what you're emulating, they're games, not just piles of components and code.
And users can't be developers in your place, and no one has ever been in position nor had anything to force you to do anything. But the very dramatic part is that you hold the power to emulate but ignore what games and people who play them are.
If there's a drama about emulation with MAME that will remain in history it's very much that,
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382376 - 05/08/19 01:19 AM
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> > you seem to be pushing for with every single one of your posts.
> You have the wrong idea about what you're emulating, they're games, not just piles of
> components and code.
except to the people you're talking to, their job is to treat them as piles of components and code and be entirely indiscriminate in doing that.
at best we help construct an evidence based narrative to show their roles in history, and how various IPs were licensed, how hardware used by different developers evolved official and unofficial influences of what was produced etc. it's a technical project, documenting history.
that is our role, that is what mamedev does best, and has done best for 20 years.
stop trying to change our role to what you want our role to be
again, this is just trying to bully us into doing something that doesn't match our skills, something that is a job for somebody else.
this is not some user hating thing, this is simple logic, simple development roles etc.
you're talking to the wrong people.
if you want people to fill a different role, find the correct people for that.
also maybe be glad that some of us take up this role, i've probably spent over a £700 of my money this year on random plug+play units that really nobody is ever going to want to play, purely because I can view them as piles of components and code that have a place in a historical document that tells a story. without people willing to do that, for things that would otherwise be deemed junk, we'd be a lot worse off even if nobody plays them in the next 20 years they're emulated (if they get emulated)
likewise, look at the recent dumping union posts, that print club stuff etc. certainly isn't about the games, those things at this point are nothing but a curiosity, but there's enough interest to get them picked up, dumped, and in MAME (and enough interest that we're investing in hardware to break the weird protections some of them have)
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382377 - 05/08/19 01:35 AM
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> except to the people you're talking to, their job is to treat them as piles of
> components and code and be entirely indiscriminate in doing that.
>
> that is our role, that is what mamedev does best, and has done best for 20 years.
Well you've started and continued for 20 years on a basis that states doing something that's destined to remain always partially inappropriate/incomplete then.
> stop trying to change our role to what you want our role to be
>
> again, this is just trying to bully us into doing something that doesn't match our
> skills, something that is a job for somebody else.
>
> this is not some user hating thing, this is simple logic, simple development roles
> etc.
I'm just stating the facts, the problem then as you describe it is developer logic that's not compatible-enough with what they've been working on, video games and what they are to people who are not developers.
An accident, sort of ironic. Emulating games but not for the purpose of playing. Absurd.
But nah, I don't have to swallow all your ridiculous statements, of course MAME can attend to the parts that count to make the experience of using and playing with it better. The lack of worthy communication is the problem.
It's just...you're crazy, maybe all of mamedev is crazy idk, but the sure thing is that you're the one hurting people, and I begin to think you hve some sort of morbid pulsion to make people disgusted. In short you're in the way.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382378 - 05/08/19 01:38 AM
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> > except to the people you're talking to, their job is to treat them as piles of
> > components and code and be entirely indiscriminate in doing that.
> >
> > that is our role, that is what mamedev does best, and has done best for 20 years.
>
> Well you've started and continued for 20 years on a basis that states doing something
> that's destined to remain always partially inappropriate/incomplete then.
>
> > stop trying to change our role to what you want our role to be
> >
> > again, this is just trying to bully us into doing something that doesn't match our
> > skills, something that is a job for somebody else.
> >
> > this is not some user hating thing, this is simple logic, simple development roles
> > etc.
>
> I'm just stating the facts, the problem then as you describe it is developer logic
> that's not compatible-enough with what they've been working on, video games and what
> they are to people who are not developers.
>
> An accident, sort of ironic. Emulating games but not for the purpose of playing.
> Absurd.
>
> But nah, I don't have to swallow all your ridiculous statements, of course MAME can
> attend to the parts that count to make the experience of using and playing with it
> better. The lack of worthy communication is the problem.
> It's just...you're crazy, maybe all of mamedev is crazy idk, but the sure thing is
> that you're the one hurting people, and I begin to think you hve some sort of morbid
> pulsion to make people disgusted. In short you're in the way.
again with the insults...
not sure what you're hoping to achieve.
you're simply talking to people who are passionate about these things, have made a massive difference, and yet all you can do is call them crazy, morbid, and tell them that they're hurting people and are in the way.
sorry, but I think you're on your own with that one.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382379 - 05/08/19 01:40 AM
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> not sure what you're hoping to achieve.
that's the very most important question you should ask yourself.
call them crazy, morbid, and tell them
> that they're hurting people and are in the way.
Again can't help twisting words eh? to the bitter end always dishonest.
The crazy and mobid were for you, and yes I very much think you are.
> sorry, but I think you're on your own with that one.
Oh the irony. You're probably one of the loneliest persons I've ever read on the bloody internet since it's been around.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382380 - 05/08/19 01:43 AM
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> > not sure what you're hoping to achieve.
>
> that's the very most important question you should ask yourself.
and I already know the answer?
I'm making a difference to the preservation of these things, so that in 100, 200, maybe even 1000 years things that would have been lost are still accessible and can still be studied, so that no pieces of the jigsaw are missing, so that contributions people made can be traced right back to their origins, so that the full story of certain IP licenses can be told etc. I want to make sure no knowledge is lost when it comes to our computing history to the fullest degree possible (I could list off 100 more reasons and goals here)
you seem to have simply resorted to trolling, if you weren't from the start.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382381 - 05/08/19 01:53 AM
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I'm just going to weep for you, because someone so far way, so disconnected from the reality of the living is so sad. *sob*
And leave it at that. /end
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382382 - 05/08/19 01:53 AM
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> An accident, sort of ironic. Emulating games but not for the purpose of playing.
> Absurd.
This is taken from the readme file in MAME 0.27, released in August 1997:
Quote:
The main purpose of MAME is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated Arcade Machines. This is done for educational purposes and to preserve many historical games from the oblivion they would sink into when the hardware they run on will stop working.
Of course to preserve the games you must also be able to actually play them; you can see that as a nice side effect.
The goal of the project has been the same for more than 20 years, even before most of the current developers joined.
And the focus on documenting history and not on playing games is the main reason why the project has progressed thus far.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382383 - 05/08/19 01:56 AM
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Not half as absurd as thinking that you're entitled to play tens of thousands of games and that the developers have to cater to you.
Retroarch brought in a pretty entitled crowd, a ton of people who feel they have the right to play perfectly emulated games and yet virtually none of them have contributed to the project(s).
I've contributed, many times, giving a pretty good amount of money over the course of more than a decade, often for things I have no interest in. Contributing simply because the target is exceedingly rare and undocumented.
Before we have any other conversations, IMO, the Retroarch community needs to start donating to the dumping union.
Join the project, don't sit on the fence and argue with the people who are doing amazing things. Or don't join the project and let those who care do the right things.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Mazinger]
#382384 - 05/08/19 02:05 AM
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> The goal of the project has been the same for more than 20 years
that narrative has always been there to divert atention from IP holders a bit
Stating that attenting to what matters for playability doesn't count is irrational as games aren't painting nor statues in a museaum.
Actually deliberately leaving it unatended while claiming a goal for accuracy at the same time is contradictory.
Pretending they can't do even a little bit for it not even in 20 years is bullshit.
Just stating the obvious.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: LensLarque]
#382385 - 05/08/19 02:11 AM
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> > The goal of the project has been the same for more than 20 years
>
> that narrative has always been there to divert atention from IP holders a bit
>
has it really, or are you just defining it that way because you want to define it that way?
has nothing i've said about my genuine reasons for doing this in any way maybe made you think we're telling the truth about what we say there?
just because you think the reason given is just to divert attention doesn't mean it is.
i'm 100% in this for the educational value and plenty of the others are too, not everyone, sure, and 'educational' is a broad field anyway, but a good number of the key members over the years.
has it not clicked that maybe a lot of what you complain about is the way it is because the statement holds a lot more truth with those contributing than it does with yourself?
the evidence overwhelmingly suggests there's more than a bit of truth in the statement.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Rygar9]
#382386 - 05/08/19 02:12 AM
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> I've contributed, many times
I'd contribute, I would have contributed many times, under the condition the playability/useability parts would have been attended to at least a bit reasonably, and it still stands.
The day they'll introduce things like we've discussed i'll contribute both in money donations and even pcbs if any of what I have left matters.
> Before we have any other conversations, IMO, the Retroarch community needs to start
> donating to the dumping union.
As I said it's better to forget about them and focus on the issues that make people disregard MAME to begin.
There's nothing to expect from RA.
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: Haze]
#382387 - 05/08/19 02:21 AM
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> has it not clicked that maybe a lot of what you complain about is the way it is
> because the statement holds a lot more truth with those contributing than it does
> with yourself?
>
> the evidence overwhelmingly suggests there's more than a bit of truth in the
> statement.
That's what you say, but it's you and I know you're far way from understanding reality.
But if most of mamedev actually believe that, then it'd just mean the confirmation that the whole project was made by people who can't see the obvious mistake they' made about the very material they've worked on all that time.
And that'd just make it all more sad.
> i'm 100% in this for the educational value and plenty of the others are too
Also massive lol to that. I've said it games are not paintings nor statues material for a museum, they're not books for a library either, they're not things people will be interested in nor want to play forever, your 100, 200, 1000 years claim is nuts, there will be fewer and fewer people into old games as time passes, a number of decades of popularity and recognition at best can be maintained, for the handful that were the most popular ones in their time, but the vast majority is forgotten anyway even if emulated.
The very essence of games is that they're here to be played, and if emulation doesn't care about that, leaving important parts directly related to that purpose aside and actually made worse like leaving too much input delay on top of the game's, then it's incomplete/inaccurate emulation period. And nobody expects to wait several decades past the time a game was popular, to fully experience again how it was to play it back then e.g not a thing with laggy controls run by a software you almost need a degree in computer science to use.
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: HLSL changes by anikom15
[Re: uman]
#382388 - 05/08/19 03:08 AM
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> > That's why retroarch is a piece of crap. Of course BGFX will survive to that crap
> > because it works fine in MAME, which will be around wayyy more than that retroarch
> > mess of a "project".
>
> Please stop that discussion.
> First changes of anikom15 where made in 0.181 MAME.
> Now it is time to make a working .diff of 0.180 MAME and the current one.
I'm glad you got your information.
Since this thread doesn't want to end, I am locking it and may delete all the crap I am seeing. Useless trolling and arguing being called discussion...
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