hi, i am a new user on this forum. and one of the first threads i've noticed was an old one that talked about the old 1977 game called Bazooka.
well, i'm trying to remake that game in Unity.
i know that this is not a Unity forum, that's why i posted it here on the loony bin, which is the forum section for other stuff), but i need some help from you.
anyway, checking this old manual: (which i also found it that thread) it seems that the game had a lot of noises. but anyone (if you played that game) remember how they sounded? for now i've just created some simple squarewave sounds (and a sine one for ambulance) but from what i've seen those old games counted a lot on realistic sound (for example death race). so i wanted to have an idea how to reproduce them in the most similar way to the original game
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
>hi, i am a new user on this forum. and one of the first threads i've noticed was an old one >that talked about the old 1977 game called Bazooka.
You are so going to have a particular Bazooka fan that might reply here later since that was his game. :-) My favorite PSE (Project Support Engineering) brand game is Desert Patrol.
>well, i'm trying to remake that game in Unity.
Good luck there. MAME does have some building blocks in place (preliminary support for some TTL components), but still a ways to go. There have been some non-cpu game additions by couriersud (MAMEdev) with pong and Breakout and MooglyGuy doing preliminary support of Stunt Cycle.
>i know that this is not a Unity forum, that's why i posted it here on the loony bin, >which is the forum section for other stuff), but i need some help from you. >anyway, checking this old manual:
imo It's fine. This thread might be moved to emuchat forum section later so check there if it is not in Loonybin forum.
>(which i also found it that thread) it seems that the game had a lot of noises. >but anyone (if you played that game) remember how they sounded?
I don't remember details about Bazooka. I played it, but not as much compared to Desert Patrol.
>for now i've just created some simple squarewave sounds (and a sine one for ambulance) >but from what i've seen those old games counted a lot on realistic sound (for example >death race). so i wanted to have an idea how to reproduce them in the most similar way to >the original game
....might be able to assist in audio sound effects of the other Bazooka sounds. Vernimark probably hasn't posted on here MAMEWorld in a while. You'll have to email and send a reference link to this thread. Hopefully he still has the cab.
As you already know, a lot of the analog circuitry (discrete) for audio sounds is quite involved when being emulated in something such as MAME.
The one shot sound effects for explosions is possible, but complex sound effects such as ambulance sirens might pose a challenge.
In MAME or other emulators, emulating some of those games is a challenge since they use 3 or 4 pcbs hooked up to a mainboard pcb.
That's why only single board non-cpu pcbs games are emulated at this time even though roms have been added/supported/dumped and documented in MAME so users can repair their pcbs and replace roms chips that have gone sour.
that game looks very interesting! hopefully it will be the next one i'm going to remake (though i have in mind to remake Heavyweight Champ or Cobra Gunship, which don't have any gameplay video, so i have to imagine what gameplay they had)
also, i'll try to contact Vernimark as soon as possible. (he also has a FB page, so it will probably be easier to contact him)
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
also, finally managed to create a little gameplay video. Bazooka WIP
anyway, i tried to contact Vernimark, but he said the cabinet has been broke since a long time, but in the next weeks he'll start to repair it. in the meantime i'll try to do some other things (both in the game and also other projects).
also, does Taito's Attack have ripped sprites, or i have to draw them by looking at gameplay videos?
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
>also, finally managed to create a little gameplay video. Bazooka WIP
The Bazooka fan will appreciate that work.
>i tried to contact Vernimark, but he said the cabinet has been broke since a long time, >but in the next weeks he'll start to repair it.
Bummer about that. There may have been actual Youtube videos of a PSE Bazooka with gameplay, but that was in 2007 or 2008 and taken down way back then.
As for Bazooka sound effects, I am not sure if there was a specific prom that held very specific sound data that would be generated at a specific gameplay moment and then the analog circuitry would manipulate the sound data to generate a specific sound effect.
For PSE Desert Patrol, there is a specific prom that does store sound data and comes into play when a player hits a pilot/parachute stick figure (not supposed to do that) with gunfire and the parachute figure then displays a spiraling falling stick figure that generates an audio scream sound effect that is manipulated by the analog circuitry. That specific prom has not yet been dumped. rom was missing from previous dumped Desert Patrol pcbs. The rest of the sounds of Desert Patrol are generated via discrete analog circuitry that don't use any roms.
see blinddog's post that shows the Desert Patrol pilot/man images:
I forgot that vernimark had posted in the thread at the time.
>in the meantime i'll try to do some other things (both in the game and also other >projects). >also, does Taito's Attack have ripped sprites, or i have to draw them by looking at >gameplay videos?
It has been a while, but I was using Marc Lafontaine's Ripper program when working with Desert Patrol images at the time. My old post gives a brief explanation of how to work with Marc's program.
- PSE Desert Patrol mini thread *edit* 10/02/14 04:22 PM Attachment: rip081.zip 152 KB
>(though i have in mind to remake Heavyweight Champ or Cobra Gunship, which don't have any >gameplay video, so i have to imagine what gameplay they had)
Sega Heavyweight Champ is not really possible because the game uses proms for storing images and unfortunately no Sega Heavyweight Champ pcb has not surfaced with roms that can be dumped compared to other non-cpu games.
Fortunately Meadows Cobra Gunship has been dumped and uncertain, but the roms that contain/store the graphic data may be good. Not certain though since Cobra Gunship hasn't been worked on yet. This is where Marc Lafontaine's Ripper program can be used to examine the specific prom file that stores the sprite image(s).
I do have Meadows Cobra Gunship logic schematics sheets and need to take those to a shop in Long Beach, CA that do scans of large size foldout logic schematics and create pdf files and upload to forum for others to download like what was done a few months ago.
*see old thread* - For-Play Rally, For-Play Sport Center, Meadows Bombs Away
Here are some of the ttl placeholders of non-cpu games not yet fully emulated (reasons: ttl components not yet emulated...etc.) Some of these do have roms that store sprite/graphic images. The problem is some entries are better documented since there is more known about them especially the pse.cpp source file or the Atari source file.
Allied Leisure src/mame/drivers/aleisttl.cpp Atari src/mame/drivers/atarittl.cpp Electra src/mame/drivers/electra.cpp Exidy src/mame/drivers/exidyttl.cpp Meadows src/mame/drivers/meadwttl.cpp PSE src/mame/drivers/pse.cpp Ramtek src/mame/drivers/ramtek.cpp Sega src/mame/drivers/segattl.cpp Taito src/mame/drivers/taitottl.cpp
You might have faster success with Meadows Bombs Away compared to Meadows Cobra Gunship.
Quote: Bummer about that. There may have been actual Youtube videos of a PSE Bazooka with gameplay, but that was in 2007 or 2008 and taken down way back then.
Quote: It has been a while, but I was using Marc Lafontaine's Ripper program when working with Desert Patrol images at the time. My old post gives a brief explanation of how to work with Marc's program.
i tried to extract sprites from the Cobra Gunship rom using Ripper and this was the result: Halved sprites. some puzzle skill needed here.
and for Heavyweight Champ, that should be no problem since i tried to recreate the sprites from scratch using original game references. this was the result:
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
>>There may have been actual Youtube videos of a PSE Bazooka with gameplay, but that was in >>2007 or 2008 and taken down way back then.
>maybe you mean this one? Bazooka
I believe that is the video of Taito de Brazil version of the game. A shop in Brazil had a Taito cab down there. Someone else will know details, but I guess Taito had been supplier of games in Brazil back in 1970s and 1980s. Bootlegged or actual licensed originals, I am not sure. There are old posts in emuchat forum section when there were contributors posting from a Brazil a while ago.
The video I am recall and it was either 2007 or 2008 was a PSE brand cab of Bazooka and the video was made in someone's gameroom collection. It was made about the time that a seller (same person) was trying to auction a PSE brand Bazooka cab on ebay at the time.
>>It has been a while, but I was using Marc Lafontaine's Ripper program when working with >>Desert Patrol images at the time. My old post gives a brief explanation of how to work >>with Marc's program.
>i tried to extract sprites from the Cobra Gunship rom using Ripper and this was the >result:
Might be a case in which the roms might need to be redumped again for Cobra Gunship. That is one of the non-cpu Meadows games in which the documentation needs a bit more updating. The non-cpu Meadows with best odds of being emulated/simulated is Bombs Away since logic schematics are available and video clips available.
I need to take Cobra Gunship logic schematics to a print service in Long Beach, CA so those sheets can be scanned and copies outputted to a pdf file for folks to download. On my to-do list, but may be a few more weeks.
>and for Heavyweight Champ, that should be no problem since i tried to recreate the >sprites from scratch using original game references.
Good luck, but that one will still be a stretch of guessing involved. It's any guess without actual proms being dumped from a pcb and no logic schematics makes it a challenge of how game really runs.
Going back several years earlier, one of the rarely known non-cpu games that was marketed was Atari / Kee Games Crossfire. I thought it was some game that someone was guessing by mistake and then in late 2012, TNT Amusements was auctioning off paperwork and I had noticed something with words Crossfire in a photo.
- * old thread * evidence of Atari Crossfire *edit* 02/22/13
I bought that from store owner Todd Tuckey and then had photocopies made to Adam Bousley and Rich R. for DICE and they were able to emulate the game Crossfire in DICE around 2014 or 2015 iirc.
No video reference of the cab, but there was a text description recalling how game works. With logic schematics of Crossfire Adam and Rich were able to emulate the game.
It's too bad the logic schematics are really hard to find these days compared to the service manuals. Not having logic schematics usually means no way anyone wants to trace out all the circuits on a pcb should person have a pcb for doing circuit tracing work unless it is a game the person really enjoyed playing and really wants to see being preserved.
Quote: Might be a case in which the roms might need to be redumped again for Cobra Gunship. That is one of the non-cpu Meadows games in which the documentation needs a bit more updating. The non-cpu Meadows with best odds of being emulated/simulated is Bombs Away since logic schematics are available and video clips available.
yeah, that's true. since Bombs Away has more stuff to understand how the original game was, it would be probably better to do that one before Cobra Gunship (though i imagine that CG was a bit like Red Baron but simpler) anyway, i did a little puzzling of those halved sprites and this was the result:
also, i've saved some screenshots from those Attack (Taito) videos, hopefully i can recreate the sprites in the most similar way to the original ones.
Quote: I need to take Cobra Gunship logic schematics to a print service in Long Beach, CA so those sheets can be scanned and copies outputted to a pdf file for folks to download. On my to-do list, but may be a few more weeks.
Good luck with that!
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
>>Might be a case in which the roms might need to be redumped again for Cobra Gunship. That >>is one of the non-cpu Meadows games in which the documentation needs a bit more updating.
I may have only seen Meadows Cobra Gunship cab at a long ago Time Out arcade that used to be at the Westminster Mall in Westminster,CA back in mid 1970s (1976 iirc). I don't recall seeing that game at other places. I never played the game and a young age at the time, Cobra Gunship probably wouldn't have been a game I would have wanted to play. The same arcade had Nintendo WG film projection screen game at the same time and I spent money on that game quite a few times. This was when as a kid and could get no more than two or three quarters from parents in those days when going to the mall and had to be real selective in which game of wanting to play then. The WG cab coin credits setting was defaulted to two quarters rather than one so it meant not being able to hang out at Time whenever I played Nintendo WG game.
>>The non-cpu Meadows with best odds of being emulated/simulated is Bombs Away since logic >>schematics are available and video clips available.
Assuming that the pdf file for Bombs Away can be downloaded these days (server issues earlier this year when MW host had moved things around), one of the pages should be readable, the other page ink is in really faded condition and would need photoediting work to be readable.
- Meadows Bombs Away logic schematic pdf scans 05/26/18 12:03 AM Attachment: meadowsbombsawaylogicschematics.zip 8367 KB
This should minimize some guess work, unless it is something on sheet one needing to be looked over. Andy Welburn had redumped proms from a Bombs Away pcb a year or two ago and Andy's work is good since pcb repair work is his area. Andy also did PSE Game Tree so I am certain PSE Game Tree images from a couple of the proms will be viewable.
>before Cobra Gunship (though i imagine that CG was a bit like Red Baron but simpler) >anyway, i did a little puzzling of those halved sprites and this was the result:
I am certain I never saw any video action of Cobra Gunship even though there was a cab at one of the Time Out locations. The way how I was as a kid back then when wandering around in arcades back in 1970s, my behavior was somewhat similar to the tv series character "Young Sheldon" (show the depicts when Jim Parson's Dr. Sheldon Cooper as a kid) for reference. That was how I was a kid back then....not really paying attention to arcade games unless it caught my attention span. It would be like as if Cobra Gunship never existed even though I walked by a Cobra Gunship cab a couple times back in the days when visiting Time Out arcade when it was in business in Westminster, CA Mall from years 1975 till about 1981.
>also, i've saved some screenshots from those Attack (Taito) videos, hopefully i can >recreate the sprites in the most similar way to the original ones.
I'd like to believe Andy might be able to track down and find the Taito board set of that game some time in the future.
>I need to take Cobra Gunship logic schematics to a print service in Long Beach, CA so >those sheets can be scanned and copies outputted to a pdf file for folks to download. On >my to-do list, but may be a few more weeks.
With the specific work order that I wanted, ARC did a great job. It isn't cheap, but they did quality work with what I needed to have done.
If downloading any of the files, their scans for creating the pdf files work is very good imo. They couldn't do anything with one of the sheets with the faded ink of Bombs Away, but their scans for creating the pdf results is/are really good and readable imo. Check the For-Play schematics pdf files.
Meadows Cobra Gunship schematics are in readable condition so the creation of pdf files should be okay when that eventually gets underway. It is the roms from the Cobra Gunship pcb that might need to be redumped again some time later.
-- For Play and Meadows logic schematic pdf scans 05/24/18
Quote: This should minimize some guess work, unless it is something on sheet one needing to be looked over. Andy Welburn had redumped proms from a Bombs Away pcb a year or two ago and Andy's work is good since pcb repair work is his area. Andy also did PSE Game Tree so I am certain PSE Game Tree images from a couple of the proms will be viewable.
i've tried to check the files contained in Game Tree Zip file, and yeah, the sprites are available. Same thing for some other games like Outlaw (halved in two but can be puzzled), Destruction Derby(4 parts) and Death Race (same).
also talking about Death Race, two years ago someone did a "almost 100% nailed" simulation of it here it is
"My son always brawls with childrens at school! it's Death Race fault! not mine that i can't educate him!"
>are those green and blue colors real game colors, or just an overlay?
I have never seen the cab in person, but my guess is if the cab backside were opened, the monitor would be seen as seated in bottom of cab with monitor facing upwards and the video output is reflected off of a mirror and illuminated to back end of the cab onto the background/backpiece artwork piece.
The monitor is probably grey output (think of Atari Stunt Cycle monitor sans the bube tube sticker pieces (look like purple pipes) that shows both black and white and shades of gray/grey in between. Either the overlay consists of colored tapes adhered to the monitor. (ie: Exidy Circus and Midway Clowns) Or maybe it is a color translucent overlay piece that contains different colors that is mounted to the monitor.
Anybody's guess unless the manual / service operator manual can be found.
ok, thanks for the info about Attack. i'll try to nail the overlay effect as better as possible.
also, i guess i got the original jeep sprite wrong in that picture, because when i tried to look at the video in a slowed down version, the sprite looked like this, and not like the previous. it seems that that thing behind the driver isn't a car hood but two other people.
jeez! it's really hard to nail a sprite from such blurry videos.
also, i've read your message, and i've sent to him the schematics. anyway, he told me that his Play Rally machine isn't real Play Rally, but a Pong clone. or is the original game a Pong clone itself? i'm not sure.
also, i tried to remake again the jeep sprite based on the better image i posted.
this was the old one i did based on the most blurry one.
what's the best one in your opinion? i know that i have to do the sprites as similar as possible to original game, but i like the more bulky design of the old one.
>what's the best one in your opinion? i know that i have to do the sprites as similar as >possible to original game,
I was guessing Taito Attack might have different type of targets. I am guessing both might be possible to use.
I have a hunch that a Taito Attack pcb might be found later and actual prom images (assuming prom(s) are readable) will be dumped. Andy has a good track record finding these types of Taito pcbs.
>and i've sent to him [vernimark] [link to] the schematics.
Thanks. If he were still posting here on MW frequently, I might have messaged him.
>anyway, he told me that his Play Rally machine isn't real Play Rally, but a Pong clone. >or is the original game a Pong clone itself? i'm not sure.
The link to the cab shows a For-Play's Rally cab and I had thought maybe it had a Rally pcb in the cab. That is a bummer that he didn't have a working Rally pcb for that cab. I wonder what pcb his cab is using now.
There were a lot of different pong clone variations (if strictly going with 2-player variations...not the 2 to 4 players pong versions) to Atari's original Pong.
Allied Leisure Paddle Battle was most seen, but there were other 2-player pong variations such as Midway's Winner, For-Play's Rally, Williams Paddle Ball, Nutting Associates Computer Space Ball etc.
The unique feature with For-Play's Rally is the ability to switch the game selection to play either against another player or player versus machine. That wasn't a common feature with early generation of arcade pong hardware until the next generation of 2 or 4 players arcade pong hardware did have the versus machine option capability. The versus machine option was a common feature with pong console's since many of the brands of consoles had the pong games programmed down to single chip.
Quote: I have a hunch that a Taito Attack pcb might be found later and actual prom images (assuming prom(s) are readable) will be dumped. Andy has a good track record finding these types of Taito pcbs.
yeah, i'll guess i will have to wait before using the original sprites. in the meantime i've started progress with Taito Attack simulation on Unity.
Update: sadly i had to scrap Attack for now for different motives.
first, my attempt to nail the original sprites was successful only with the foreground jeep, while the others came out wrong. also because of wrong sprites proportions and wrong positioning, my game came out with all the sprites cluttered too tight in the game screen. it can be adjustable but with such wrong sprites it isn't worth it in my opinion.
so i passed to a more simple game. Western Gun (still made by Taito), also this one hasn't got ripped sprites, but in this case i had the occasion to nail the sprites almost perfectly by using this video
Update: >sadly i had to scrap Attack for now for different motives.
>first, my attempt to nail the original sprites was successful only with the foreground >jeep, while the others came out wrong. also because of wrong sprites proportions and wrong >positioning, my game came out with all the sprites cluttered too tight in the game screen. >it can be adjustable but with such wrong sprites it isn't worth it in my opinion.
That was going to be an uphill battle when not having actual rom images from pcb to work with. Good try though.
>but in this case i had the occasion to nail the sprites almost perfectly by using this >video
Good reference videos that came from some tv show that showed actual clips of Taito games. There is a old thread on emuchat forum that talked about this and all the actual vid images from Taito games. I'll see if I can find the thread later and update this post later with link to thread.
>Western Gun (still made by Taito), also this one hasn't got ripped sprites,
I'd like to believe Andy will eventually come across these Taito pcbs later.
There was an older thread posted here on MW that showed several cabs at some North Korea arcade location. One of the cabs was a Western Gun cab.....a needed/wanted roms from a pcb and of all places the cab is in N. Korea.
As shown, Taito Western Gun would consist of a monitor output of gray (see Stunt Cycle for reference) with Western Gun showing some objects all black and others all white etc.
"Cheetolini" seems to talk useless feeble flattery describing his dealings with N. Korea Kim Jong Um Maybe arrange a trade for that Western Gun cab? (ie: means intentionally kidding with unfunny humor and vaudeville stage performer gets pelted with tomatoes from the angry crowd)
>Western Gun. well, there's still a lot of stuff to tweak.
Definitely a challenge, but it does look good from what I can see. I'd like to believe the N. Korea cab location photos helped a tiny bit. At least that game didn't use any background artwork scenery pieces.
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(ie: means intentionally kidding with unfunny humor and vaudeville stage performer gets pelted with tomatoes from the angry crowd)
