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DU: Laserdisc updates and more
#378040 - 08/07/18 09:18 AM
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![](http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/du/dunews.png)
Brizzo sent out an A/V sample of the current WIP of laserdisc progress thanks to Chad Page.
http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/du/aug7-2018/ldsample.avi
Joe Magiera dumped an alt revision of Exidy's Crash.
ClawGrip, Roberto Fresca and Recreativas.org dumped an SNES to JAMMA (4 slots) adapter.
Ordyne dumped revision 1.66S of ID3 Cycraft Motion PC Software. Kevin Eshbach dumped revision K of Golfing Greats.
SpinalFeyd redumped the following Japan PC games to be in a better format.
Klik & Play Kitchen Panic Purunba Jii Jii Monster No O O A bare The Neverhood Underground Mission OrgaSlave Master Blaze Exit For Windows Geo Light Moon Doka Chan No Building Panic Claw Assassin 2015 Arabian Kid Ku2 Impact Yokai Ningen Bemu Aratanaru Tamashii No Meikyuu (MAC) Lunicus (MAC) ReVolte (Win Power VR) Kung-Fu Hero Akimbo Lee Battle Beat LE Segata Sanshirou Choujin Densetsu (WIN & MAC) Diet Go Go Kaseki Play
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Smitdogg]
#378044 - 08/07/18 12:24 PM
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Smitdogg]
#378047 - 08/07/18 02:16 PM
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> Brizzo sent out an A/V sample of the current WIP of laserdisc progress thanks to Chad > Page. > > http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/du/aug7-2018/ldsample.avi >
I wouldn't say it was a fair representation as it's MPEG4 / AC3 encoded. That's like if you'd put up the preview PNG as a JPEG.
seems odd to offer a WIP of something being done as losslessly as possible in a lossy format?
Other than that, it looks like the capture works well, hope it the various home system / arcade laserdiscs come out as well, the original versions of many of them need preserving before all that's available are HD remasters.
It will be nice to see the existing ones recaptured without errors too. Either the source discs MAME used for Mach3 before were corrupt, or the capture process didn't pick up the audio tracks correctly, hence bugs like http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=3223 where it's trying to read the tracking data from the audio track, can't, so just gives you an error message. IIRC some of the other platforms store code in the audio tracks too so they can load a small program specific to the laserdisc. (Laseractive maybe?)
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Haze]
#378052 - 08/07/18 07:01 PM
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The video is representing an audio WIP
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Smitdogg]
#378053 - 08/07/18 07:24 PM
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> The video is representing an audio WIP
would have made more sense to encode as MP4/Flac then if the audio was the focus
192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Haze]
#378091 - 08/10/18 02:48 AM
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> 192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed
Can you successfully ABX 192kB/s AC3 versus lossless?
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: apeman]
#378092 - 08/10/18 03:46 AM
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> > 192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed > > Can you successfully ABX 192kB/s AC3 versus lossless?
that's not really the point when you're dealing with preservation
moreso when you can have data encoded in there.
lossy techniques have their own artefacts and general signatures in the signal, audible or not, you don't want them building up. they're specifically designed to NOT represent the data, but represent what they think a person can hear and throw other bits away.
what the human ear can / can't hear is irrelevant here, best possible representation of data that was captured, and no user created artefacts etc. is key.
If you're analyzing a captured stream and the encoding has thrown away / changed data because it thinks you won't be able to hear the difference then you don't get a good idea of the actual capture capability from the data.
It's likely for a lot of these we're approaching the point where there's going to be one real chance to do them properly, before they rot too much. When presented with such a scenario you don't capture stuff only to throw bits of it away, you get what you can, while you can and store that for future generations.
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Foxhack |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Haze]
#378093 - 08/10/18 04:54 AM
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> > The video is representing an audio WIP > > would have made more sense to encode as MP4/Flac then if the audio was the focus > > 192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed
It might be related to audio levels.
When I capture stuff, I do tests with lossy codecs to make sure the color and audio levels, and other things like interlacing or even aspect ratios are correct before doing a run with the archival settings.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Haze]
#378107 - 08/11/18 03:52 AM
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> > > 192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed > > > > Can you successfully ABX 192kB/s AC3 versus lossless? > > that's not really the point when you're dealing with preservation
Wasn't this just supposed to be a WIP - a clip showing progress? Nobody was mentioning AC3 @ 192kB/s being the "final" audio product, unless I misunderstood something. So... get off their backs please. On the other hand (if I am wrong), I would very much doubt AC3 is transparent at this rate. See: http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Transparency
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: apeman]
#378108 - 08/11/18 04:15 AM
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> > > > 192Kb/s AC3 is very lossy indeed > > > > > > Can you successfully ABX 192kB/s AC3 versus lossless? > > > > that's not really the point when you're dealing with preservation > > Wasn't this just supposed to be a WIP - a clip showing progress? Nobody was > mentioning AC3 @ 192kB/s being the "final" audio product, unless I misunderstood > something. > So... get off their backs please. > On the other hand (if I am wrong), I would very much doubt AC3 is transparent at this > rate. See: http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Transparency
I don't expect the final thing to be AC3 / MP4, no.
I was just expressing surprise that such formats were being used for the WIP for the very reason that they're not going to be representative of the final thing as the capture quality is one of the big things about these new techniques.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Haze]
#378126 - 08/12/18 06:07 PM
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> It will be nice to see the existing ones recaptured without errors too. Either the > source discs MAME used for Mach3 before were corrupt, or the capture process didn't > pick up the audio tracks correctly, hence bugs like > http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=3223 where it's trying to read the tracking data > from the audio track, can't, so just gives you an error message. IIRC some of the > other platforms store code in the audio tracks too so they can load a small program > specific to the laserdisc. (Laseractive maybe?)
Greetings! I made a new MACH3 capture with error-free audio, but I think it might be better to try again with the raw RF capture method. I don't think the comb filtering is quite where it needs to be, but it has a lot of other advantages.
Better yet, build the software decode stack into MAME, so we can have 100 GB CHDs and play at 5 fps! (Not entirely joking -- this would be true preservation that allows for endless software tweaking in the future.)
These are pretty exciting times for laserdisc preservation nuts. (All 5 of them...?)
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: WarrenO]
#378129 - 08/12/18 10:43 PM
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> Greetings! I made a new MACH3 capture with error-free audio, but I think it might be > better to try again with the raw RF capture method. I don't think the comb filtering > is quite where it needs to be, but it has a lot of other advantages. > > Better yet, build the software decode stack into MAME, so we can have 100 GB CHDs and > play at 5 fps! (Not entirely joking -- this would be true preservation that allows > for endless software tweaking in the future.) > > These are pretty exciting times for laserdisc preservation nuts. (All 5 of them...?)
Can't tell if sarcasm.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: WarrenO]
#378133 - 08/13/18 01:16 AM
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> > Greetings! I made a new MACH3 capture with error-free audio, but ...
WarrenO,
Would it make sense to update the chd for MACH3 in MAME source with the error-free audio, since it may be some time before the new captures are available?
I guess I'm one of the 5 people that WarrenoO mentioned. I find the whole preseration process fascinating. I do have an old Astron Belt cabinet in the basement arcade, but sadly no boards or laserdisc.
A-Noid
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: anoid]
#378136 - 08/13/18 08:30 AM
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I too, am one of the 5. I wish mame could handle all things, and going to daphne is just heresy, not sarcasm
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gregf |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: WarrenO]
#378146 - 08/13/18 09:28 PM
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>I made a new MACH3 capture with error-free audio, but I think it might be better to try >again with the raw RF capture method. I don't think the comb filtering is quite where it >needs to be, but it has a lot of other advantages.
>Better yet, build the software decode stack into MAME, so we can have 100 GB CHDs and play >at 5 fps! (Not entirely joking -- this would be true preservation that allows for endless >software tweaking in the future.)
>These are pretty exciting times for laserdisc preservation nuts. (All 5 of them...?)
Has to be 50 to 100 hardcore disc fans with older LD thread from earlier this year.
For me, it is whatever it takes to get Mad Dog Mcree preserved is my main interest.....although some around here beg to differ with that particular laser disc game choice.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: gregf]
#378154 - 08/14/18 06:49 PM
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> > These are pretty exciting times for laserdisc preservation nuts. (All 5 of them...?) > > Has to be 50 to 100 hardcore disc fans with older LD thread from earlier this year.
Ah yes, I see now that my snarkiness was off by an order of magnitude... I'm glad to see there's interest in this.
Has there been any word from MAMEdev about how they might make use of raw captures? They could be software decoded and converted to the existing CHD format fairly easily, but the potential for decoding improvements in the future would be lost. Raw RF support in MAME is a much longer road, but it's really best in terms of preservation.
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: WarrenO]
#378155 - 08/14/18 11:10 PM
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> Has there been any word from MAMEdev about how they might make use of raw captures? > They could be software decoded and converted to the existing CHD format fairly > easily, but the potential for decoding improvements in the future would be lost. Raw > RF support in MAME is a much longer road, but it's really best in terms of > preservation.
This MAMEdev's word is that I cynically expect the people involved in this project to bikeshed for about 5-10 years and then maybe we'll see something.
In the event that doesn't happen, I would suggest two stages, inspired by the recent "AppleSauce" Kryoflux killer that the Apple II community developed: 1) do the initial reads in the rawest, largest, most lossless way you can reasonably manage. 2) Write something that downconverts to a format more amenable to real-time emulation. I'm thinking 640x480 RGB deinterlaced video frames with VBL data using LZMA or similar modern lossless compression would work best. After all, waiting for someone to write a live deinterlacer for MAME for the last 15 years hasn't worked out.
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: apeman]
#378156 - 08/14/18 11:14 PM
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> So... get off their backs please.
I think Haze's point is well made. The entire point of this is quality; if we didn't care about that we'd write something to convert all of the Daphne MPEG4 rips rather than having all these people spending all this time and money.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: R. Belmont]
#378157 - 08/14/18 11:59 PM
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> > So... get off their backs please. > > I think Haze's point is well made. The entire point of this is quality; if we didn't > care about that we'd write something to convert all of the Daphne MPEG4 rips rather > than having all these people spending all this time and money.
Since the video as posted lacked any information about what they were trying to show, we were all left to deduce what the WIP actually was.
My guess is that it was intended as a demonstration of the ability to decode the full NTSC signal from raw signal data, including both audio and video with proper color. From that perspective, I was hugely impressed. It looked great and sounded clean (for non-deinterlaced NTSC).
Given my guess, the whole compression issue was a big "who cares?" to me. Seemed like a lot of unnecessary shade was thrown over something that wasn't particularly relevant to what I am guessing was being demo'ed.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: AaronGiles]
#378160 - 08/15/18 02:07 AM
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Aaron! Nice to cross paths again. Has it really been 10 years?
You might remember I dismissed this approach as hopelessly impractical, but I guess it was just impractical for me, as it clearly does work.
> My guess is that it was intended as a demonstration of the ability to decode the full > NTSC signal from raw signal data, including both audio and video with proper color. > From that perspective, I was hugely impressed. It looked great and sounded clean (for > non-deinterlaced NTSC). >
That's what I got from it as well. I've experimented with the ld-decode software stack using an earlier hardware solution (a particular WinTV card with a raw 28 MHz 8-bit ADC mode), and this sample looks as good or better than what I was able to produce. I wouldn't say it beats a traditional video capture on all counts, but I think this is mostly due to software, particularly the comb filtering.
Perhaps the course events could look like this:
1) Get some raw captures with Simon's new hardware. I think it's close to ideal for the task; any improvements beyond this would be marginal. A few fanatics will archive these raw captures. Ideally there would be captures from 2 or 3 different source discs per title.
2) Convert to (digitally) lossless video files with the best quality possible from the current ld-decode software. Note that this requires "editorial" judgement for settings such as sharpness, noise reduction, dropout detection, etc., to get the best results. As such, there may be some disagreement about what "best quality" really means.
3) If these video files are significantly higher quality and/or more accurate than comparable traditional captures, it pretty much proves that the captures are viable as 'archival' quality. We can finally stop obsessing over the digitization step at this point. ![](//www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon_spin.gif)
4) Convert these video files to the current CHD format. IIRC, it uses Aaron-built 4:2:2 YUV lossless compression for video, linear PCM for audio, and decoded binary data for the line 17/18 VBI information. It might be worth considering RGB video, >720 horizontal pixels, or bitmap VBI, but I don't think these are particularly necessary.
5a) If, in the future, the software decode process is significantly improved, make new versions of the CHDs.
5b) If, in the future, MAME supports RF decode directly, replace the CHDs with raw captures in whatever format is required, along with metadata to tune the decode/DSP signal chain. (This combines 'preservation' and 'presentation' in one package.)
This allows things to move forward, regardless of when step 5b happens, if it happens at all, and allows people to see and make use of what's been done. I'd prefer to have raw intead of "baked" versions out in the wild at earlier stages, but it doesn't seem practical.
I'm out on the periphery here, so of course you're free to ignore all of this. Just trying to do what I can...
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: Smitdogg]
#378162 - 08/15/18 03:13 AM
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I hope that the release of this device will also lead to preserving the known VHD games before they're all worn out, even if emulating them will be probably much more complicated.
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: AaronGiles]
#378164 - 08/15/18 04:37 AM
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> My guess is that it was intended as a demonstration of the ability to decode the full > NTSC signal from raw signal data, including both audio and video with proper color. > From that perspective, I was hugely impressed. It looked great and sounded clean (for > non-deinterlaced NTSC).
MAME's been able to decode NTSC on the GPU for I think coming up on a decade now. One of these years we'll use it to make the Apple II render "the right way" at the expense of not being able to run without a GPU that does shaders.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: R. Belmont]
#378165 - 08/15/18 06:24 AM
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> MAME's been able to decode NTSC on the GPU for I think coming up on a decade now. One > of these years we'll use it to make the Apple II render "the right way" at the > expense of not being able to run without a GPU that does shaders.
No. Bad RB. The NTSC shader encodes composite pixels at 4x the horizontal resolution into a render target the same size as the source (packed CCCC instead of RGBA), then decodes them using a sinc filter.
Decoding already-framed composite data at it's native frequency is a fuckload easier than pulling out the actual color burst, sync, framing, and audio from a linear stream of RF-modulated data which has natural wobble to it due to disc droop.
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gregf |
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MAME laserdisc FAQ section quality post imo
[Re: WarrenO]
#378166 - 08/15/18 12:04 PM
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-- > My guess is that it was intended as a demonstration of the ability to decode the full > NTSC signal from raw signal data, including both audio and video with proper color. > From that perspective, I was hugely impressed. It looked great and sounded clean (for > non-deinterlaced NTSC). >
That's what I got from it as well. I've experimented with the ld-decode software stack using an earlier hardware solution (a particular WinTV card with a raw 28 MHz 8-bit ADC mode), and this sample looks as good or better than what I was able to produce. I wouldn't say it beats a traditional video capture on all counts, but I think this is mostly due to software, particularly the comb filtering.
Perhaps the course events could look like this:
1) Get some raw captures with Simon's new hardware. I think it's close to ideal for the task; any improvements beyond this would be marginal. A few fanatics will archive these raw captures. Ideally there would be captures from 2 or 3 different source discs per title.
2) Convert to (digitally) lossless video files with the best quality possible from the current ld-decode software. Note that this requires "editorial" judgement for settings such as sharpness, noise reduction, dropout detection, etc., to get the best results. As such, there may be some disagreement about what "best quality" really means.
3) If these video files are significantly higher quality and/or more accurate than comparable traditional captures, it pretty much proves that the captures are viable as 'archival' quality. We can finally stop obsessing over the digitization step at this point.
4) Convert these video files to the current CHD format. IIRC, it uses Aaron-built 4:2:2 YUV lossless compression for video, linear PCM for audio, and decoded binary data for the line 17/18 VBI information. It might be worth considering RGB video, >720 horizontal pixels, or bitmap VBI, but I don't think these are particularly necessary.
5a) If, in the future, the software decode process is significantly improved, make new versions of the CHDs.
5b) If, in the future, MAME supports RF decode directly, replace the CHDs with raw captures in whatever format is required, along with metadata to tune the decode/DSP signal chain. (This combines 'preservation' and 'presentation' in one package.)
This allows things to move forward, regardless of when step 5b happens, if it happens at all, and allows people to see and make use of what's been done. I'd prefer to have raw instead of "baked" versions out in the wild at earlier stages, but it doesn't seem practical.
--
Definitely informative road map of where things should be headed with future improved laser disc support. I hope some/or all of your post here makes it into one of the MAME FAQ laserdisc sections.
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gregf |
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: WarrenO]
#378167 - 08/15/18 12:25 PM
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>>> These are pretty exciting times for laserdisc preservation nuts. (All 5 of them...?) >> Has to be 50 to 100 hardcore disc fans with older LD thread from earlier this year.
>Ah yes, I see now that my snarkiness was off by an order of magnitude... I'm glad to see >there's interest in this.
The interest has always been there for older/earlier generations, but seemed to have been drowned out by the CPS-2 kidz generation such as the long ago daily posts on Gridle's old MAME.net forum of: "When will CPS-2 be emulated?"
If only 'couriersud' can be cloned a couple more times for more netlist emulation work and get For-Play's Rally (non-cpu arcade pong clone game with single player versus machine feature) be emulated, that might make one or two other emulation fans happy. And that number is literal since there aren't many left that will have actually played that particular pong clone and remembered playing For-Play's Rally at some arcade or business back in 1973. The numbers are higher for Nutting's Computer Space since that game is more memorable.
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Re: DU: Laserdisc updates and more
[Re: R. Belmont]
#378186 - 08/17/18 01:11 AM
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you're probably not joking at all with the last sentence, but I can't shake the feeling that you totally missed a opportunity
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Just broke my personal record for number of consecutive days without dying!
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