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MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
#363808 - 02/24/17 01:36 AM
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#363810 - 02/24/17 02:58 AM
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Try -video gdi (if it hasn't been ripped out).
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#363813 - 02/24/17 03:48 AM
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Try a combination of these options: -video gdi -keyboardprovider dinput -keyboardprovider win32 -mouseprovider dinput
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: AaronGiles]
#363814 - 02/24/17 03:49 AM
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> Try -video gdi (if it hasn't been ripped out).
gdi is still available, it's ddraw that's been removed.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#363834 - 02/24/17 07:55 AM
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It's working! Here's an actual screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/5s8wEVB.jpg
I am not 100% sure it's 100% smooth, but it seems to be. When I say "smooth" I mean with no delays in audio/video sync, something I perhaps have noticed for 3DO. More games and tests need to be made.
Do you guys have any idea why most PC games and a few systems won't even work with this app if I attempt to stream anything?
What's the technical reason that explains why I am having such a hard time with PC games, for example? Do they crash when I send them to fullscreen or try to open them because Microsoft Remote Desktop is limited or because they need a good improvement?
I thought streaming whatever it was happening on my PC was going to be easy...
Edited by Perene (02/24/17 07:56 AM)
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#363973 - 03/01/17 10:15 AM
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#363975 - 03/01/17 12:41 PM
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> Do you guys have any idea why most PC games and a few systems won't even work with > this app if I attempt to stream anything? > > What's the technical reason that explains why I am having such a hard time with PC > games, for example? Do they crash when I send them to fullscreen or try to open them > because Microsoft Remote Desktop is limited or because they need a good improvement? > > I thought streaming whatever it was happening on my PC was going to be easy...
Remote Desktop is not intended for streaming games. It's intended for remotely using "well-behaved" Windows applications which tend to use Windows's built-in UI widgets. In those cases, sending updates to the window state across the network is easy, because to update some text, it just needs to send the updated text in string form, not in bitmap form. To move a button, Windows just needs to send a simple command over the wire to move the button - it doesn't need to repaint the entire window and then send that as a bitmap over the network.
It's possible to force an application to send its window contents in bitmap form over the network by making it use one of the most basic Windows drawing APIs, like GDI, but you seem to have noticed that it's slow. That's because all of the rendering, in that case, is done with your CPU, not your video card.
By contrast, trying to stream a modern PC game using the Remote Desktop Protocol is an exercise in failure. Why? Because most of the time, those games are going to be drawing the contents of their window using the GPU of the machine running the actual application, and the result of that drawing is going to be contained within the video memory of that machine. It's not going to be available to the CPU of the machine running the application, and so it can't send the image over the network to your local machine. Computers just don't work that way.
In all honesty I'm not sure where you got the idea that you could use Remote Desktop Protocol for something like this, as efficiently streaming a game's video one way and the inputs the other way with as low latency as possible is a problem that has literally had hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of people looking at it - just look at the likes of OnLive, Gaikai, what NVidia are doing with game streaming these days via the Shield, and what Microsoft are looking at with their planned Xbox-on-PC tech. You're not going to manage to solve this problem using off-the-shelf tools like Microsoft Remote Desktop, that's for sure.
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casm |
Cinematronics > *
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#363978 - 03/01/17 02:00 PM
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> In all honesty I'm not sure where you got the idea that you could use Remote Desktop > Protocol for something like this, as efficiently streaming a game's video one way and > the inputs the other way with as low latency as possible is a problem that has > literally had hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of people looking at it - > just look at the likes of OnLive, Gaikai, what NVidia are doing with game streaming > these days via the Shield, and what Microsoft are looking at with their planned > Xbox-on-PC tech. You're not going to manage to solve this problem using off-the-shelf > tools like Microsoft Remote Desktop, that's for sure.
As an addendum to the above: trying to stream gaming over VDI / PCoIP deployments (which are about as fast as you're likely to get for these sorts of things outside of a lab these days) also sucks for similar reasons. It likely won't be as crap as trying to do it over RDP, VNC, X, etc. but it's still going to hurt to some extent.
My experience with gaming has been that you can take a zero client or similar, attach it to the exact same switch in the datacentre that your VDI environment uses for client delivery, and see nowhere near a 100% usable improvement in performance over having the same zero client at a remote site with good connectivity back into the datacenter.
That's not to say that there won't be a noticeable performance improvement in the above scenario: there likely will be. But whether it's a useful enough improvement for the desired end result (completely smooth and responsive gaming in this case) is probably going to fall into the 'no' category.
PCoIP has essentially the same issues as VDI, except by way of an add-on card in a PC instead of using a sealed box and calling it a zero client. However, because it's a card in a PC, you also get to deal with PC system performance issues on top of those imposed by your PCoIP card and network infrastructure.
In fairness to Teradici (who make the majority of the VDI / PCoIP chipsets in use these days) and others, their hardware does a pretty good job of getting the video stream out onto the wire efficiently. But the process of getting that stream onto the wire is always going to add overhead in terms of the time that it takes to process the video, send it down the wire, then reprocess and ultimately display it at the other end. It's a maths problem, and one that can't be avoided since time is always a factor in making this happen.
Don't invest effort in trying to do this over remote displays. Just put together a decently powerful machine, give it a monitor and controls, and enjoy gaming on it.
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R. Belmont |
Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#363984 - 03/01/17 08:57 PM
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Both Steam itself and recent Nvidia drivers have built-in game streaming over LAN. For the Nvidia solution, there's an iOS client called "Moonlight Streaming", based on an open-source project, or you can use an Nvidia SHIELD set-top box or tablet.
For Steam's streaming, the client has to also run Steam.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: smf]
#363986 - 03/01/17 10:10 PM
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> Have you enabled remote fx? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RemoteFX > > https://social.technet.microsoft.com/For...dc?forum=winRDc
RemoteFX is not something you can just enable. It requires you to setup Remote Desktop Services with the proper license together with Hyper-V to virtualize a Desktop with an enterprise version of Windows and a supported video card.
Even with all that, performance still isn't great enough for general gaming and there is a noticeable amount of latency and image quality issues.
So just stick with the solutions that actually work, such as Steam or NVidia streaming.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#364023 - 03/03/17 01:42 AM
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> > It's possible to force an application to send its window contents in bitmap form over the network by making it use one of the most basic Windows drawing APIs, like GDI, but you seem to have noticed that it's slow. That's because all of the rendering, in that case, is done with your CPU, not your video card.
I wouldn't say it's slow. None of the systems in which I wrote "supported" or partially supported in that wiki have any signs of problems in this regard. That's what caught my attention about this.
But there is definitely something in M.A.M.E. that needs an experienced opinion (of the actual streaming, if it's OK or not). Maybe it's not just in M.A.M.E. and they all might have latency issues and I am too inexperienced to notice that.
There's an app that does the same and it says it streams games running from your PC:
http://kinoconsole.kinoni.com/
However I spotted from the onset two bugs:
- One that turns the iPAD screen upside down when I am using it (even if rotation is locked), and a tiny white dot/dead pixel in the upper left corner.
And the game Duke Nukem 3D: Megaton can't be used with the app for the simple fact that when you open DN3DLauncher.exe (that's what this app does) you are not playing directly, a window to choose the desired game appears first.
That can't be good... I am quite sure this app is inferior when compared to MS RD, I am not saying Microsoft has the best people in the world working on stuff like this, only that trusting this app (that also has a paid version) to work always fine with all PC games it's a shot in the dark.
I realize this work-around sounds (and you can say it is) terrible. My problem is that I only want to use the iPAD for most of the time now. I know, I could have used another TV/monitor and plugged my computer.
The idea of bringing another device to my room (and one that has to be in a fixed place and from a distance) doesn't appeal to me as much as playing and watching the very thing in my iPAD.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#364032 - 03/03/17 02:21 PM
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Whatever, the Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be in full force here, as you clearly are of the opinion that you know more than the people who actually develop MAME. Best of luck in accomplishing what you want to accomplish, but you're not going to get much help from the actual MAME developers.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#364047 - 03/03/17 09:04 PM
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> Whatever, the Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be in full force here, as you clearly > are of the opinion that you know more than the people who actually develop MAME. Best > of luck in accomplishing what you want to accomplish, but you're not going to get > much help from the actual MAME developers.
Just let him find out the hard way. For some stuff it will be 'ok'. For most games that mame has it will be an exercise in frustration due to the latency. I had typed it all out what the different ones were but then blew away the post. I would say that sort of tech would easily lead to frames dropped and at least 2-6 frames of latency. For something like a point and click game you would never really notice it. For a twitchy game like SMB you are going to get your ass kicked.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#364211 - 03/12/17 04:09 PM
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> Whatever, the Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be in full force here, as you clearly > are of the opinion that you know more than the people who actually develop MAME. Best > of luck in accomplishing what you want to accomplish, but you're not going to get > much help from the actual MAME developers.
You are very much mistaken if you think that is the case here. Please refrain from making these kinds of assumptions when you don't know anything about the intentions of the person who is talking to you.
I merely stated that buying a new TV/monitor to put in my room (or anywhere else in here) is something I would like to avoid as much as possible because it's not practical.
If you only had two alternatives, which are carry a ton of physical books and all the library in form of ebooks, and then you were defending the latter method, for good reasons (such as the one I gave in this thread) you wouldn't be inflexible, would you?
I never said that my solution is the ideal one or that someone that suggested another way (or the only way, if you wish to put in those terms) is a fool.
I tried playing MK II for MAME just now and this time I didn't use these options:
G:\Jogos\Arcade\mame64.exe -video gdi -keyboardprovider dinput -keyboardprovider win32 -mouseprovider dinput
Instead I selected "opengl" for video. I could definitely notice a lag when Shang Tsung morphed into another character right before the round finished... It's very subtle but it's definitely there the latency issue.
So unless these options are somehow wrong, or I need more potent hardware, or MAME needs to be improved (compared to other emulators)... the use of Microsoft Remote Desktop has problems as you all mentioned before.
I tend to believe that it isn't 100% fault of this work-around, this idea of using the app.
There must be something that if improved or modified would allow these latency issues to be reduced even more. When you try to play this M.A.M.E. game you notice right away it isn't running at 100% speed.
And before you say this is the case for ALL other emulators and games, I can assure you it isn't, and if you don't take my word for it, just try them. The others I tried so far are running without any signs of latency issues at all.
M.A.M.E. is more cumbersome, that I am sure.
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Re: MAME is one of the few emulators that can't work at all with this app
[Re: Perene]
#364282 - 03/15/17 08:44 PM
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> And before you say this is the case for ALL other emulators and games, I can assure > you it isn't, and if you don't take my word for it, just try them. The others I tried > so far are running without any signs of latency issues at all. > > M.A.M.E. is more cumbersome, that I am sure.
That is possible. I guess you need to grab the source of another emulator and see what changes need to be applied to MAME.
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