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Tank 8 as FPGA version
#354975 - 05/30/16 09:11 AM
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Dear all,
New to the forum and new to Mame.
I have for some strange reason of later years gotten into the pleasures of transferring TTL only arcade schematics into FPGA - to understand how it was all done without CPU, for the fun of it, for game preservation purposes and for those arcade owners who cannot bring their old PCBs back to life or who have empty cabinet (non profit of course).
So far I have worked on Computer Space (complete), Monaco GP (sound still missing), Indy 800 (sound and some crash logic missing - but Sprint drone car logic added) and GT10/LeMans (crash and sound missing).
I was asked to look into Tank 8 - which according to the operations manual and schematics is all TTL, but when I look in the parts list it features some PROMs and a 6800 CPU. The PCB layout in the manual also shows the PROMs and 6800 positions. Quite strange actually.
I quickly noticed that Tank 8 had been released on MAME (cool - since quite some logic and sound generation is TTL only), which is why I turn to this forum. If anyone has some interesting insights to share I would be very happy.
br /mattias
Edited by computerspace (05/30/16 09:20 AM)
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: computerspace]
#354983 - 05/30/16 11:58 AM
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>New to the forum and new to Mame.
Welcome.
>I have for some strange reason of later years gotten into the pleasures of transferring >TTL only arcade schematics into FPGA - to understand how it was all done without CPU, >for the fun of it,
I like your first post since the non-cpu arcade video games era from 1971 to 1979 was my arcade years when seeing EM hardware games made by Chicago Coin and Allied Leisure standing alongside various pong clone cabs, Computer Space or Stunt Cycle.
There are actually a fair amount of manuals schematics online compared to 15 years earlier although many more needing to be added or found (if possible).
>for game preservation purposes and for those arcade owners who cannot bring >their old PCBs back to life or who have empty cabinet (non profit of course).
For some cabs, it should be possible to find a pcb, but it is getting a bit harder as time progresses. imo the old cabs should be left as is and resold if having to sell the cab. It's better to find some Street Fighter cab or a cab that housed a JAMMA hardware games and modify that to house a computer system that runs emulation or a multi games pcb.
>So far I have worked on Computer Space (complete), Monaco GP (sound still missing), Indy >800 (sound and some crash logic missing - but Sprint drone car logic added) and >GT10/LeMans (crash and sound missing).
Congrats with what you have got working so far. As I understand, Indy 800 might be missing a rom or some prom, but that still needs to be verified. I thought Gran Trak and LeMans roms haven't been dumped such as may be missing a rom or two. I am not sure.
In MAME source code, a fair number of roms for non-cpu video games (Ramtek games, PSE games, Atari etc) are documented, but still a ways to go before games are ever emulated.
The main files for non-cpu video games support: src/lib/netlist, and src/mame/drivers/pong.cpp
There are other files for discrete audio support that use netlist work. See the source file src/mame/nl.lst for reference.
couriersud is doing a great job expanding MAME net list emulation. For now, the current work is at the core/ground level for improving overall netlist emulation. Should be more TTL hardware devices to be supported, but that is at a later time.
And also Adam Bousley and Rich R. have improved DICE to run more games
http://adamulation.blogspot.com/
>I was asked to look into Tank 8 - which according to the operations manual and >schematics is all TTL, but when I look in the parts list it features some PROMs and a >6800 CPU. The PCB layout in the manual also shows the PROMs and 6800 positions. Quite >strange actually.
You ran into another example of inconsistency manual errors / misprints where what one page states, the part might not be on pcb (thankfully such as a rom or prom) A few other examples are Kee Games Crossfire and Atari Highway where parts list doesn't match what is shown on the pcb layout page. Even Juergen B. (former MAMEdev member) had to deal with misprints on the 2nd reprint of Atari Space Race manual schematics when he was trying to emulate Space Race back in 2010. Adam had to work around those misprint mistakes when emulating Space Race in DICE years earlier.
>I quickly noticed that Tank 8 had been released on MAME (cool - since quite some logic >and sound generation is TTL only), which is why I turn to this forum. If anyone has some >interesting insights to share I would be very happy.
I don't know if anyone here can help answer specific Tank 8 related questions. Both frotz and Hans A. aren't around these days. frotz left way back in 2003 or 2004 iirc
src/mame/drivers/tank8.cpp and src/mame/audio/tank8.cpp
As for contacting former Atari employees, maybe Owen Rubin? But that is a long shot since he probably didn't work on that game.
- Owen Rubin
http://www.orubin.com/ -
Very rarely do former arcade game designers/employees mention who they are in case any visit emulation sites. Owen is one and the other I recall was Atari Dave Shepherd who visited old MAME.net site back in 2006 to answer any questions about arcade games he designed himself for Atari. iirc Dave was doing that since Dave was attending the annual CA Extreme arcade event in 2006 along with some former Atari designers to answer questions by the attending audience.
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355028 - 05/31/16 08:02 AM
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Wow - thanks for a comprehensive answer...
Much appreciated. > > I was asked to look into Tank 8 - which according to the operations manual and > > schematics is all TTL, but when I look in the parts list it features some PROMs and > a > > 6800 CPU. The PCB layout in the manual also shows the PROMs and 6800 positions. > Quite > > strange actually. > > You ran into another example of inconsistency manual errors / misprints where what > one page states, the part might not be on pcb (thankfully such as a rom or prom) A > few other examples are Kee Games Crossfire and Atari Highway where parts list doesn't > match what is shown on the pcb layout page. Even Juergen B. (former MAMEdev member) > had to deal with misprints on the 2nd reprint of Atari Space Race manual schematics > when he was trying to emulate Space Race back in 2010. Adam had to work around those > misprint mistakes when emulating Space Race in DICE years earlier. Tank 8 is unfortunately beyond misprint... it actually does not disclose any CPU or CPU-PROM related information in the schematics, and it does not mention the CPU structure at all in the manual. I almost believe that the game was originally constructed without CPU - given that so much logic resides in TTL format.
> > I quickly noticed that Tank 8 had been released on MAME (cool - since quite some > logic > > and sound generation is TTL only), which is why I turn to this forum. If anyone has > some > > interesting insights to share I would be very happy. > > I don't know if anyone here can help answer specific Tank 8 related questions. > > Both frotz and Hans A. aren't around these days. frotz left way back in 2003 or 2004 > iirc Thanks for sharing - Hans Andersson sounds very Swedish to me. Small country, I will try to find him he here.
> src/mame/drivers/tank8.cpp and src/mame/audio/tank8.cpp > Pretty cool - I did not know that Mame could work with discrete in this way. Impressive.
Btw when I looked at some tank8 rom files available as downloads I noticed that they have extension .c1 .j1 .f1 .e1 .l1 .k1 .j5 .h5 .n6 etc. Is there a file extension logic and a guide on how to inspect and use these ROM files as non MAME (or are they deeply MAME configured)?
br /Mattias
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drewcifer |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: computerspace]
#355029 - 05/31/16 09:03 AM
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Hej Mattias,
First, welcome to the forums! It appears as though you are located in Sweden. It turns out there are 2 developers on the MAME mailing list who live in Sweden, and another recent heavy contributor, so you're among friends.
> Pretty cool - I did not know that Mame could work with discrete in this way. > Impressive.
There are actually two discrete subsystems in MAME - one was developed 5+ years ago and hasn't seen much love since (this is what's used in tank8), and the other is under active development. There are a lot of fun things going on in that department these days. The term "netlist" is used a lot with the modern discrete system, so things such as this:
(a full pong machine - no roms - simulated with relatively modern netlist code) https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/5d1...rivers/pong.cpp
(a full list of netlist uses) https://github.com/mamedev/mame/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=netlist
(examples of where to look for netlist code and what it looks like) https://github.com/mamedev/mame/tree/master/nl_examples
and this:
https://github.com/mamedev/discrete
are directly relevant to what you are doing. It's even possible whatever layout program you used to develop your simulations could be imported into MAME and it would "just work". I believe there are many opportunities for you to benefit from MAME as well as MAME to benefit from the knowledge you have.
> Btw when I looked at some tank8 rom files available as downloads I noticed that they > have extension .c1 .j1 .f1 .e1 .l1 .k1 .j5 .h5 .n6 etc. Is there a file extension > logic and a guide on how to inspect and use these ROM files as non MAME (or are they > deeply MAME configured)?
MAME's naming convention for ROMS goes ROM_label.PCB_location. This is so people who own the PCBs and need to service their board, can easily locate the ROM in question on the PCB (among various other reasons). Each ROM file is 'dumped' exactly as the ROM datasheet describes, and is independent of MAME - MAME has many different ROM loading procedures that adapt to the myriad of different ROM types produced over the years. In other words, these ROM files can be loaded by a ROM programmer, programmed directly to a ROM chip, and work on the PCB without any fuss. They should be useful to you.
There is plenty of other interesting things to talk about as well, so please enjoy taking a look at what MAME has already done, and let's see if there is a way both projects can benefit eachother.
/Andrew
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: computerspace]
#355197 - 06/02/16 06:04 PM
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>> You ran into another example of inconsistency manual errors / misprints where what >> one page states, the part might not be on pcb (thankfully such as a rom or prom) A >> few other examples are Kee Games Crossfire and Atari Highway where parts list doesn't >> match what is shown on the pcb layout page. Even Juergen B. (former MAMEdev member) >> had to deal with misprints on the 2nd reprint of Atari Space Race manual schematics >> when he was trying to emulate Space Race back in 2010. Adam had to work around those >> misprint mistakes when emulating Space Race in DICE years earlier.
>Tank 8 is unfortunately beyond misprint... it actually does not disclose any CPU or >CPU-PROM related information in the schematics, and it does not mention the CPU structure >at all in the manual. I almost believe that the game was originally constructed without >CPU - given that so much logic resides in TTL format.
I wonder if it is same scenario like Kee Games Quiz Show manual print. Maybe not, but as I recall the Quiz Show manual also left out a fair amount of details including the cpu type (S 2650 cpu) I don't know if that was intentional in order to throw off rival companies or make it harder for repairs to be made by non affiliated repair firms.
>Is there a file extension logic and a guide on how to inspect and use these ROM files >as non MAME?
Andrew provided the exact correct answers.
With some proms, especially any proms that contain graphic data image contents, it is possible to view the images themselves using Marc Lafontaine's program called Ripper.
The downloadable program file can be found in this old post.
- http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
Attachment: rip081.zip 152 KB
Marc Lafontaine
For those that have seen data images for Bazooka and wonder how they were generated, it would likely be from Marc Lafontaine's program called Ripper which can be grabbed from here as a zip file attachment. The zip file also includes same instructions I typed here for how to view PSE game images and an image of airplane targets from Desert Patrol. -
As an example, Matt showed that the prom that stores parachute images from his own Desert Patrol pcb was in readable condition.
-- http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
http://i.imgur.com/GEc1c3x.jpg --
There is a bit of a learning curve with Ripper, but it does work with 1970s era arcade game pcbs.
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355206 - 06/02/16 09:37 PM
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Feel free to contact Owen Rubin at the website that Greg mentioned. He doesn't mind answering questions at all (I'm his former webmaster). Although he may not have worked on any of the TTL games, he may be able to contact, for you, those that did with any questions you may have. That is no sure guarantee, but Owen is very helpful with what he *can* do.
The DICE simulator is open source as well (Greg didn't mention this, although it is stated on the site), so that might be able to help you as well.
Good luck and much appreciation for your work.
EDIT: another resource that may help is Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg's Atari Museum Facebook group. Many former Atari designers and programmers are members of the group.
Edited by Brian Deuel (06/02/16 09:40 PM)
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: drewcifer]
#355247 - 06/03/16 10:37 PM
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Welcome Matt,
It's very exciting to see the work you are doing.
I wish couriersud had some sort of WIP page. I would love to know where he is in the overall discrete picture. Maybe break down his progress for the layman.
Couriersud is the netlist specialist around here
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: Antny]
#355271 - 06/04/16 05:07 AM
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>I wish couriersud had some sort of WIP page. I would love to know where he is in the overall discrete picture.
A wip page these days may seem dated now that folks can check up with progress on github type pages these days with various code sent in.
Granted it isn't the same as seeing a wip page where Haze would provide a paragraph or two regarding a specific update on his own site, but users now get to see what updates take place compared to 15 years ago where users could only guess what was sent in to Nicola. And unfortunately some sent in code may have been misplaced when sent in to Nicola way back then. These days the development process is better, but I still miss some occasional Gridle old MAME.net wip comments that were amusing when Gridle would post wip updates.
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Stiletto![Administrator Administrator](//www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/images/adm.gif) |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355272 - 06/04/16 05:13 AM
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> > I wish couriersud had some sort of WIP page. I would love to know where he is in the > overall discrete picture. > > A wip page these days may seem dated now that folks can check up with progress on > github type pages these days with various code sent in. > > Granted it isn't the same as seeing a wip page where Haze would provide a paragraph > or two regarding a specific update on his own site, but users now get to see what > updates take place compared to 15 years ago where users could only guess what was > sent in to Nicola. And unfortunately some sent in code may have been misplaced when > sent in to Nicola way back then. These days the development process is better, but I > still miss some occasional Gridle old MAME.net wip comments that were amusing when > Gridle would post wip updates.
Well, we're working on bringing that back, in a way! mamedev.org's blog, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Imgur will feature not only the news updates regarding new releases but also news from devs that still post to their own WIP page. It's coming.
- Stiletto
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#355273 - 06/04/16 05:14 AM
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>The DICE simulator is open source as well (Greg didn't mention this, although it is stated on the site), so that might be able to help you as well.
Yep. I forgot to add that part.
>EDIT: another resource that may help is Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg's Atari Museum >Facebook group. Many former Atari designers and programmers are members of the group.
Does former Atari game designer Dave Shepherd visit there? If so, that would be great since Andy Welburn now has the Kee Games Quiz Show tapes, but needs to find out how the Quiz Show tape data was encoded back then so the data can be read out properly. The Kee Games Quiz Show manual had left off lots of technical details such as the cpu type (already known), but how tapes and the data from the tapes is/are handled when Quiz Show is running.
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: Stiletto]
#355274 - 06/04/16 05:16 AM
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>> Granted it isn't the same as seeing a wip page where Haze would provide a paragraph >> or two regarding a specific update on his own site, but users now get to see what >> updates take place compared to 15 years ago where users could only guess what was >> sent in to Nicola. And unfortunately some sent in code may have been misplaced when >> sent in to Nicola way back then. These days the development process is better, but I >> still miss some occasional Gridle old MAME.net wip comments that were amusing when >> Gridle would post wip updates.
>Well, we're working on bringing that back, in a way! mamedev.org's blog, Facebook, >Twitter, Instagram, and Imgur will feature not only the news updates regarding new >releases but also news from devs that still post to their own WIP page. It's coming.
"Hmmmm.....Interesting." as Seinfeld's "Newman" would say (actor: Wayne Knight)
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355410 - 06/07/16 03:34 PM
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> > The DICE simulator is open source as well (Greg didn't mention this, although it is > stated on the site), so that might be able to help you as well. > > Yep. I forgot to add that part. > > > > EDIT: another resource that may help is Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg's Atari > Museum > > Facebook group. Many former Atari designers and programmers are members of the > group. > > Does former Atari game designer Dave Shepherd visit there? If so, that would be > great since Andy Welburn now has the Kee Games Quiz Show tapes, but needs to find out > how the Quiz Show tape data was encoded back then so the data can be read out > properly. The Kee Games Quiz Show manual had left off lots of technical details such > as the cpu type (already known), but how tapes and the data from the tapes is/are > handled when Quiz Show is running.
Yes he does. Both Andy and Dave are members of the group, and I'd be willing to bet that Andy has already pinged Dave about this. I could be wrong, of course, but Andy's a smart bloke
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355411 - 06/07/16 03:38 PM
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#355414 - 06/07/16 05:28 PM
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![](http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061215040413/seinfeld/images/3/34/Newman.JPG)
"I believe that job [getting a hair sample from Jerry's hair] will require one year of free haircuts. And a comb!"
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gregf |
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#355415 - 06/07/16 05:35 PM
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>>>another resource that may help is Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg's Atari Museum >>>Facebook group. Many former Atari designers and programmers are members of the group.
>> Does former Atari game designer Dave Shepherd visit there? If so, that would be >> great since Andy Welburn now has the Kee Games Quiz Show tapes, but needs to find out >> how the Quiz Show tape data was encoded back then so the data can be read out >> properly. The Kee Games Quiz Show manual had left off lots of technical details such >> as the cpu type (already known), but how tapes and the data from the tapes is/are >> handled when Quiz Show is running.
>Yes he does. Both Andy and Dave are members of the group, and I'd be willing to bet that >Andy has already pinged Dave about this. I could be wrong, of course, but Andy's a smart >bloke
Ok. That looks promising in case Dave is still around to answer any specific questions. It would be good to see at least one 8-track data tape based arcade game preserved.
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Re: Tank 8 as FPGA version
[Re: gregf]
#355421 - 06/07/16 10:41 PM
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Thanks to all of you for the warm welcomes and recommendations.
I will pursue a couple of the proposed avenues and read in more on mame. Hopefully I will also be able to contribute somehow with my rather deep insights into Computer Space, Monaco GP and others. At least Computer Space is very well documented as VHDL code at KLOV/VASP - http://forums.arcade-museum.com/ for anyone who is interested - and also readily downloadable and playable on altera de0 dev board.
br /mattias
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