| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
#351367 - 03/09/16 05:14 PM
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Qun Mang]
#351472 - 03/11/16 08:47 PM
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> A shocking development to no one who read the news of their faking the console first
> with an SNES Jr. inside the case, then a photo of a transparent case with a PCI card
> inside.
Yeah, a lot of us have been following the hilarity on this via the AtariAge thread. I never understood why you'd want to make a "modern system that plays new retro-style games" when the PS4/XB1/WiiU/PC already do that (Hotline Miami, Cave Story, and Shovel Knight to name 3) and most people already have one or more of those four. So I wasn't surprised when the RetroVGS Kickstarter failed hard.
And when it changed from that to the "Coleco Chameleon" which could emulate anything, well, again, my PC already does that.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: R. Belmont]
#351479 - 03/12/16 12:56 AM
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> Yeah, a lot of us have been following the hilarity on this via the AtariAge thread. I never understood why you'd want to make a "modern system that plays new retro-style games" when the PS4/XB1/WiiU/PC already do that...And when it changed from that to the "Coleco Chameleon" which could emulate anything, well, again, my PC already does that.
Never underestimate the power of RETRO. Like, we all thought stuff was dying down several years ago....
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Traso]
#351492 - 03/12/16 03:53 AM
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> > Yeah, a lot of us have been following the hilarity on this via the AtariAge thread.
> I never understood why you'd want to make a "modern system that plays new retro-style
> games" when the PS4/XB1/WiiU/PC already do that...And when it changed from that to
> the "Coleco Chameleon" which could emulate anything, well, again, my PC already does
> that.
>
True, that.
>
> Never underestimate the power of RETRO. Like, we all thought stuff was dying down
> several years ago....
I'm always for seeing more retro games related stuff out there, within reason. The Coleco branding made me think of the Colecovision Flashback as I once had a Colecovision growing up. Too bad it is said to be not very good. I'll just stick with emulation on my PC and phone/tablet.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Qun Mang]
#351495 - 03/12/16 05:02 AM
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> A shocking development to no one who read the news of their faking the console first
> with an SNES Jr. inside the case, then a photo of a transparent case with a PCI card
> inside.
>
> http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/03...s_in_the_future
Don't want to be sued by Nintendo. 
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Dullaron]
#351496 - 03/12/16 05:17 AM
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> > A shocking development to no one who read the news of their faking the console
> first
> > with an SNES Jr. inside the case, then a photo of a transparent case with a PCI
> card
> > inside.
> >
> >
> http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/03...s_in_the_future
>
> Don't want to be sued by Nintendo.
LOL, that has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Traso]
#351498 - 03/12/16 05:21 AM
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> Never underestimate the power of RETRO. Like, we all thought stuff was dying down
> several years ago....
Indeed, never underestimate the power of the word "retro" when it comes to moving units. Thousands of people exist who don't realize that the retro games they remember fondly were good despite their limitations, not because of them, so they latch onto the first project that comes along to try to justify its shitty graphics by saying that they're "retro". The whole indie market has basically become a paper-thin justification for people to put next to no effort into the art or audio of a game while still expecting to be met with horns and heraldry.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351500 - 03/12/16 05:33 AM
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> > > A shocking development to no one who read the news of their faking the console
> > first
> > > with an SNES Jr. inside the case, then a photo of a transparent case with a PCI
> > card
> > > inside.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/03...s_in_the_future
> >
> > Don't want to be sued by Nintendo.
>
> LOL, that has nothing to do with it.
I know. Just pop in my mind when I saw the post. 
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351502 - 03/12/16 05:43 AM
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> the retro games they remember fondly were good despite their limitations, not because of them
I disagree with this part. To quote Orson Welles, the enemy of art is the absence of limitations. I think the limitations were a big part of what made them come up with the ideas they did, and if there wouldn't have been limitations it would have jumped right into my least favorite shits like 1st person shooters and flight sims.
Today it's not the same situation with people wanting to make retro genre games though like you said, we already had the explosion of game genres in the 80s and they might as well make it on a PC. The groundwork was done decades ago.
A lot of retro fans, I think they really want a new cartridge based system, games being on manly and solid hardware instead of a feminine downloaded app or lame disc.
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351507 - 03/12/16 07:19 AM
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> A lot of retro fans, I think they really want a new cartridge based system, games
> being on manly and solid hardware instead of a feminine downloaded app or lame disc.
Put a rom on an SD card, plug it in, load it with an emulator. There ya go.
Not enough testosterone for you? Mold a shell to hold the SD card, then shove it in. 
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Qun Mang]
#351509 - 03/12/16 07:27 AM
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I can't tell the extent of your joke but no.
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351510 - 03/12/16 07:54 AM
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That bad? I guess if I have to explain it then I know the answer. How about, fix an old cartridge shell (or other molded plastic) to hold the SD card then? Child-size SD card, man-size "cartridge". Well, whatever. Back to lurking mode.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Qun Mang]
#351511 - 03/12/16 08:11 AM
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Your example I guess is based off the Neogeo gold bullshit that uses an SD card and mix that with geek porn using MVS shells. That means what you had in mind doesn't appeal to the demographic I'm talking about and you don't understand what they want. Bye.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351514 - 03/12/16 05:23 PM
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> Your example I guess is based off the Neogeo gold bullshit that uses an SD card and
> mix that with geek porn using MVS shells. That means what you had in mind doesn't
> appeal to the demographic I'm talking about and you don't understand what they want.
> Bye.
"The demographic" wants something that appeals to "The demographic" because they think that the mere presence of a demographic (however small) means that it's worth making a product that caters to that demographic.
It costs quite a lot to make a nicely-cased platform for retro gaming. It costs a lot to develop the hardware, and it costs a lot to make development kits to give for free to interested developers who can actually give you something that's going to sell the hardware - because let's be honest, a platform is only as good as the things that are available on it, it doesn't sell itself.
Doing all of this costs on the order of hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars right at the outset, before you've had time to recoup your losses in licensing fees. Atari, Nintendo, and Sega could afford it due to arcade profits. Sony could afford it because of consumer electronics. Microsoft could afford it because it was already wildly profitable in the 80's and 90's due to MS-DOS and Windows.
"The demographic" that you're talking about either doesn't exist or is so vanishingly small that making a dedicated console for such a demographic is financial suicide.
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351515 - 03/12/16 05:33 PM
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> Your example I guess is based off the Neogeo gold bullshit that uses an SD card and
> mix that with geek porn using MVS shells. That means what you had in mind doesn't
> appeal to the demographic I'm talking about and you don't understand what they want.
> Bye.
Wow, my post really went in a direction I didn't intend. I meant, forget the console altogether and just run an emulator on a computer. Want the feel of the "manly" cart? The closest thing to a cartridge port on a computer is an SD card port. Throw a ROM on an SD card and set the emulator to load from the it. SD card not as manly as a true cart? Make it cartridge-sized by wrapping the SD card in some sort of shell. Useless, but makes the SD card feel like a cartridge.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351516 - 03/12/16 05:36 PM
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I didn't say it would make financial sense to actually build that.
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Your joke made me remember about this. Good times, I guess I'll build one myself.
[ATTACHED IMAGE]
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351518 - 03/12/16 06:43 PM
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> A lot of retro fans, I think they really want a new cartridge based system, games
> being on manly and solid hardware instead of a feminine downloaded app or lame disc.
I guess senility took hold and they forgot how much cartridges sucked.
OG.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351527 - 03/12/16 10:55 PM
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> "The demographic" that you're talking about either doesn't exist or is so vanishingly
> small that making a dedicated console for such a demographic is financial suicide.
I'm also surprised a demographic for "retro" games exists in this day and age where kids seemingly struggle to play NES games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njzAyjAFCMI
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#351529 - 03/12/16 11:26 PM
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hahahaha... you nail it... funny video.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#351531 - 03/12/16 11:29 PM
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> > "The demographic" that you're talking about either doesn't exist or is so
> vanishingly
> > small that making a dedicated console for such a demographic is financial suicide.
>
> I'm also surprised a demographic for "retro" games exists in this day and age where
> kids seemingly struggle to play NES games.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njzAyjAFCMI
Parents be like they don't play video games. We don't allow them to play. lol
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Nice
[Re: BIOS-D]
#351532 - 03/13/16 12:01 AM
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I guess USB will do too, but SD card is still more similar I think. In either case, just set up an autorun on the device to run the emulator and load the game when inserted. Or a shortcut if you were smart and disabled devices from auto running anything when inserted.
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| Qun Mang |
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Legend of Link
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Reged: 12/12/03
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#351533 - 03/13/16 12:19 AM
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> I'm also surprised a demographic for "retro" games exists in this day and age where
> kids seemingly struggle to play NES games.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njzAyjAFCMI
There's hard, and there's NES hard. Says...someone.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#351538 - 03/13/16 01:11 PM
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> I guess senility took hold and they forgot how much cartridges sucked.
>
> OG.
People only remember the good things about cartridge-based gaming - no installation, no Internet connection required, no load times, to updates to download.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#351540 - 03/13/16 06:35 PM
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What was the downside? Cartridges rocked. They were sturdy too.
The only downside I remember was their limited capacity, but that was a product of the time.
Interested into hearing why people think they sucked?
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#351542 - 03/13/16 07:25 PM
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> > "The demographic" that you're talking about either doesn't exist or is so
> vanishingly
> > small that making a dedicated console for such a demographic is financial suicide.
>
> I'm also surprised a demographic for "retro" games exists in this day and age where
> kids seemingly struggle to play NES games.
>
Kids? No, I'm talking about a group within Generation X & Y.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vaughan]
#351543 - 03/13/16 08:00 PM
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> What was the downside? Cartridges rocked. They were sturdy too.
>
> The only downside I remember was their limited capacity, but that was a product of
> the time.
>
>
> Interested into hearing why people think they sucked?
Basically capacity, production costs and program faults by dirty terminals. However even if cartridges were to make a come back it doesn't matter anymore. Why? Because the license still needs permission from a server to run on a console, also it has to download and read from writable memory everything again for DLC or update purposes. In the end as much as a cartridge was considered a complete fully tested game, current development standards won't allow to shine the few advantages cartridges have. Even cartridge additional hardware doesn't matter anymore because software doesn't exploit hardware at maximum.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351544 - 03/13/16 09:06 PM
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> > Never underestimate the power of RETRO. Like, we all thought stuff was dying down
> > several years ago....
>
> Indeed, never underestimate the power of the word "retro" when it comes to moving
> units. Thousands of people exist who don't realize that the retro games they remember
> fondly were good despite their limitations, not because of them, so they latch onto
> the first project that comes along to try to justify its shitty graphics by saying
> that they're "retro". The whole indie market has basically become a paper-thin
> justification for people to put next to no effort into the art or audio of a game
> while still expecting to be met with horns and heraldry.
There are some 'retro' style games out there that are *very* well done. But most of them are exactly like you describe. Poor artwork, poor screechy music with poor and punishing gameplay. Your assessment of most of the games out there is spot on. Most of the older games are the same way. We know what are the good games... now. That is more of a hindsight is 20/20 sort of thing. However, we also know which ones sucked. I am also one of the very few who seem to think in comparison to the other 2600 games ET was an OK game. Most of them sucked.
My point (and I think yours)? Take something like the upcoming thimbleweed park game. A 'retro' style game but they are doing it right (for that particular style). But then take something like Steam and set the tag to 'pixel graphics' and you will not go more than a page or two before you find something pretty abysmal. Just because its 'retro' does not mean do a crap job at it.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: BIOS-D]
#351545 - 03/13/16 09:21 PM
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> > What was the downside? Cartridges rocked. They were sturdy too.
> >
> > The only downside I remember was their limited capacity, but that was a product of
> > the time.
> >
> >
> > Interested into hearing why people think they sucked?
>
> Basically capacity, production costs and program faults by dirty terminals. However
> even if cartridges were to make a come back it doesn't matter anymore. Why? Because
> the license still needs permission from a server to run on a console, also it has to
> download and read from writable memory everything again for DLC or update purposes.
> In the end as much as a cartridge was considered a complete fully tested game,
> current development standards won't allow to shine the few advantages cartridges
> have. Even cartridge additional hardware doesn't matter anymore because software
> doesn't exploit hardware at maximum.
I agree cartridges don't make any sense today. I made the switch to downloading games some time ago, so basically any physical media is a step backwards in that regard.
But speaking in the past tense, they really were great - and the optimal solution, imo. My use of them was in the era of the Atari 2600, and they far surpassed alternatives at the time - which was either tape, or five and a quarter inch floppies - which were slow and much more prone to error.
Must say, I'm struggling to think of a single cartridge that failed because of dirty terminals, even the ones I sometimes use now (I still have a 2600 and a bunch of games). I'm sure it happens, but with minimal care cartridges last.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vaughan]
#351547 - 03/13/16 10:24 PM
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> I agree cartridges don't make any sense today. I made the switch to downloading games
> some time ago, so basically any physical media is a step backwards in that regard.
>
> But speaking in the past tense, they really were great - and the optimal solution,
> imo. My use of them was in the era of the Atari 2600, and they far surpassed
> alternatives at the time - which was either tape, or five and a quarter inch floppies
> - which were slow and much more prone to error.
>
> Must say, I'm struggling to think of a single cartridge that failed because of dirty
> terminals, even the ones I sometimes use now (I still have a 2600 and a bunch of
> games). I'm sure it happens, but with minimal care cartridges last.
Well, cartridges started to suck right after the NES. I don't know who in their right mind consider "nostalgic" to blow NES, SNES and GameBoy carts. I never did something like that to my Atari 2600/7800 cartridges and neither to my SEGA Genesis games. There was also the thing with the CIC chip causing faulty errors. Region locking used to be a physical method (i.e. different slot shape) and anyone could build a cart without asking for permission nor "Seal of Qualities" Nazi restrictions.
I'm starting to think Nintendo rescuing the console industry back then was a major drawback and it only delayed what it's happening now. The "everything is turning to PCs" back then had a name: MSX standard. Not saying we could all be playing in Z80 based computers, but probably an evolution from it a lot earlier.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: BIOS-D]
#351549 - 03/13/16 11:31 PM
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I'm not so sure that the NES blow ever did much. It was just something that caught on. People saw their friend do it and assumed it worked. The act of removing and reinserting probably did the real trick. I had more success with difficult games by adjusting how far back or forward the carts were inserted / reseated. And yes NES was the only system I recall having these issues with, though highly used MVS boards sometimes do something similar.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vaughan]
#351550 - 03/14/16 12:09 AM
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> What was the downside? Cartridges rocked. They were sturdy too.
>
> The only downside I remember was their limited capacity, but that was a product of
> the time.
>
>
> Interested into hearing why people think they sucked?
High cost and long manufacturing lead times. This manifested itself in various ways. Publishers would be reluctant to pay the setup costs for a production run of a game that they thought might not sell well. Poor demand forecast could lead to a game not being available in necessary quantities, or a big loss on oversupply if you overestimated demand.
Limited capacity. No it wasn't just a product of the time. ROM was expensive and this limited how much content you could fit in a game while keeping it affordable. Even then the bigger games were expensive.
I only ever ran into the reliability issues on NES and N64, but they were annoying when they happened. Also on-cart backup batteries are a PITA.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#351552 - 03/14/16 01:58 AM
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Oh. I've never owned a Nintendo anything. I went from an Atari 2600 to an Atari 400, then an 800, then XE etc. Cartridges were great in those.
Still, as said, there doesn't seem a role for cartridges today.
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Reged: 01/30/04
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Smitdogg]
#351564 - 03/14/16 05:28 AM
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> I'm not so sure that the NES blow ever did much. It was just something that caught
> on. People saw their friend do it and assumed it worked. The act of removing and
> reinserting probably did the real trick. I had more success with difficult games by
> adjusting how far back or forward the carts were inserted / reseated. And yes NES was
> the only system I recall having these issues with, though highly used MVS boards
> sometimes do something similar.
I did that "far back" thing too, it's the only way I could get some games to work.
It's that godawful pin insertion system on the NES, just... gah. So goddamn stupid.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Foxhack]
#351575 - 03/14/16 01:26 PM
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> I did that "far back" thing too, it's the only way I could get some games to work.
>
> It's that godawful pin insertion system on the NES, just... gah. So goddamn stupid.
Yup. It's part of the reason why it's a shame the revised top-loader NES is so hard to come across these days - it didn't have that issue.
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#351605 - 03/15/16 03:25 PM
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> I only ever ran into the reliability issues on NES and N64, but they were annoying
> when they happened. Also on-cart backup batteries are a PITA.
I hear you. Add the SNES and Mega Drive/Genesis to that list as well. Not just dirty carts and loose contacts on the console, but and in the case of the Mega Drive, failing/faulty ROM chips which require a resistor soldered to ground to get them running again (it seems that anything from 330 through 1000 ohms is fine, although testing known good games it should be around 820-1000, see here).
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#351631 - 03/16/16 04:45 PM
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> High cost and long manufacturing lead times. This manifested itself in various ways.
> Publishers would be reluctant to pay the setup costs for a production run of a game
> that they thought might not sell well. Poor demand forecast could lead to a game not
> being available in necessary quantities, or a big loss on oversupply if you
> overestimated demand.
This, not Warshaw and Frye, was the ultimate cause of the 1983 crash. The market was still growing when everyone abruptly went out of business (which is why ex-Mattel guys who'd seen the numbers bought the Intellivision rights and continued making and selling games until 1991), but nobody was profitable because their forecasts were so far out of whack.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9716
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Coleco ends relationship with RetroVGS
[Re: Foxhack]
#351657 - 03/17/16 04:47 PM
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> It's that godawful pin insertion system on the NES, just... gah. So goddamn stupid.
In the US, the conventional wisdom was that video game consoles were dead and never coming back, like the Pet Rock. The VCR-style cartridge loading was part of the "disguise" the NES wore.
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