Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Reged: 03/07/04
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Posts: 6472
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From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
#351062 - 03/04/16 07:48 PM
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http://mamedev.org/?p=423
Quote:
Please be aware that only files distributed by Mamedev (those available via the official GitHub) have been subject to the relicensing efforts.
If you maintain a derivative build please be aware that you will have to gain the correct permission from all contributors for any extra code you have in your build. Code that was distributed under the previous MAME license can not be included or linked to MAME from this point forward without being relicensed, requiring permission from all contributors to that code.
This applies to all derivative builds, including MAMEUI, MESSUI etc. so if you have a derivative build based upon that code you will need to either rewrite from scratch or obtain permission from all contributors to the code in order to relicense.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: Stiletto]
#351064 - 03/04/16 07:57 PM
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> http://mamedev.org/?p=423
>
> Please be aware that only files distributed by Mamedev (those available via the
> official GitHub) have been subject to the relicensing efforts.
>
> If you maintain a derivative build please be aware that you will have to gain the
> correct permission from all contributors for any extra code you have in your build.
> Code that was distributed under the previous MAME license can not be included or
> linked to MAME from this point forward without being relicensed, requiring permission
> from all contributors to that code.
>
> This applies to all derivative builds, including MAMEUI, MESSUI etc. so if you have a
> derivative build based upon that code you will need to either rewrite from scratch or
> obtain permission from all contributors to the code in order to relicense.
to further clarify
this applies to the MAMEUI / MESSUI code itself, we have made no effort to relicense it. Anybody using it (including John IV etc.) will need to seek permission of all authors and have them agree on one of the compatible licenses before publishing another build.
it also applies to any additional code in other builds, for example, things like image filters, you'll need permission from each of the authors of those filters in order to relicense them and include them.
The same applies to any other non-trivial code changes.
Please be aware that from this point onwards the licensing requirements are very strict, every file you use should have a proper license text at the top stating the copyright holder(s) of that file and the license they've agreed to distribute it under.
As MAME now contains GPL code any changes made in future versions to files distributed with a GPL license cannot be backported to older versions / forks of older versions (eg mame4all etc.) as the previous MAME license(s) and GPL are NOT compatible.
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Can be discussed thanks (nt)
[Re: Stiletto]
#351083 - 03/05/16 05:59 AM
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: Stiletto]
#351101 - 03/05/16 08:11 AM
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I am no lawyer, but wouldn't be enough if the derivative builds also released their code under the new license (with updated header files?
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: mangamuscle]
#351109 - 03/05/16 10:58 AM
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> I am no lawyer, but wouldn't be enough if the derivative builds also released their
> code under the new license (with updated header files?
Yes, that's literally all that needs to happen. There haven't been nearly as many external contributors to projects like MAMEUI or MAMEUIFX as there have been to MAME, so it should be an absolute walk in the park to take care of. If e.g. Mamesick wanted to keep MAMEUIFX going, it would be trivial to do so, and the fact that he's instead using this as an opportunity to stir up anger and resentment amongst his doe-eyed sycophants is really telling.
The fact of the matter is that people like Mamesick have been abrasive towards the MAME team at best and downright abusive at worst over the past decade, and have made it abundantly clear that they would see everything MAME has accomplished over the past 19 years razed to the ground if it meant having one more game become "playable" for the rest of the l33t fr33 g4m3z!11`! crowd who don't give a shit about accurate emulation. As usual, he's acting like a spoiled child who isn't getting his way, and it's a shame that people like Big Karnak and crew are being taken in by his vitriol.
It seems that the main genesis of this rift was 2-3 weeks ago, when the MAME team started cleaning up legacy code and removing old, less-than-maintainable bits. It's at this point where Mamesick's sense of unwarranted self-importance, and that of the rest of the people trying to keep MAME running on XP and earlier, really started to show. According to these people, we are literally Hitler for caring more about getting MAME running on modern devices than we are for catering to people using PCs older than some of the people who post on Tumblr. It's this sense of unwarranted self-importance that causes these people not to realize that in the long run, it's going to be MAME running on these more modern devices that attracts new developers and new talent to the team, not MAME running on a 486 that was fished out of a dumpster or traded for a fucking dime bag.
It's really unfortunate that the "free games" crew is under the mistaken impression that they're the ones keeping MAME alive, rather than the progressive modernization of both MAME's code and its policies over the past year, so let me be very clear: Either you're aboard the MAME progress train, or you're standing in front of it - in which case, get the fuck out of the way before you get run over.
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John IV |
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IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
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Reged: 09/22/03
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Posts: 1969
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Loc: Washington, USA
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: Haze]
#351117 - 03/05/16 12:12 PM
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351124 - 03/05/16 01:29 PM
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Oh please, lets keep it somehow human. Its not necessary to start verbal attacks again. IMHO it is also the responsibility of the dev team, to formulate things a little more clearly. Just take those two initial posts here (locked thread at start) and dont tell me, people could easily misunderstand this whole stuff.
As i feel a little addressed by your text, i can tell you that i dont want to clean dirty laundry here and will not dig out all the things that where said at that time. From my side, all started with the "extraordinary" talk, about CRT support and is the main reason (for me), how the XP stuff started to escalate. I really try to understand all the steps that where done lately, but you also need to understand, that some things can be delicate, from a community POV. I am happy that most things could be cleared and appreciate your open approach with Calamity for example. But if you talk about Hitler stuff, then i also hope, you remember how this started  and who you called pigs etc.
I have seen pigs eating human corpses, so it leaves me cold, the same goes for RB, who thinks that germans brought us only WW2. I could dig out even more stuff, but this would be absolute childish behaviour and doesnt bring us forward. No one wants (at least not me) to halt/stop the necessary steps for MAME that are needed for a healthy future, but next time please try to keep away the arrogant attidude or try not seeing everything from a paranoia view, that people always want to do something intentionally bad for MAME (the same applies to myself of course).
Many things are a big misunderstanding most of the time, so we should focus sometimes more on "clearly" words. You have problems to understand my english, i have problems to understand yours.
And what is this "free games" debate lately? I dont see anything wrong with gaming, cause thats how MAME started and how the majority sees MAME, even if MAME has grown up in the past view years. I dont mind if there are some more games (or less) and have no interest to see games appearing at any cost, but if you talk about accuracy, i see a big loss for kicking CRT-support and i am sure that i am not the only person who see it that way and you should stop thinking that this is only 1% of the MAME community and even if this would be true (which is not), exactly this 1% is the community that really cares about accuracy, that you initially treat with contempt.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: uman]
#351126 - 03/05/16 02:05 PM
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> And what is this "free games" debate lately? I dont see anything wrong with gaming,
> cause thats how MAME started and how the majority sees MAME, even if MAME has grown
> up in the past view years.
And with this you've proven that you know nothing about the history of MAME and "how MAME started", and everyone should feel free to disregard your posts. Unlike you, I've used MAME since the late 90's and have been an active developer since roughly 2001/2002. I've seen how MAME started. I've seen what the developers cared about since the beginning. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you are completely wrong.
I stand by my statement that the people actually contributing to MAME are not the people trying to keep MAME running on ancient setups. The people trying to keep MAME running on ancient setups are the ones who have complained endlessly over the years every time MAME gets slower. They're the people who prove their ignorance about anything technical via wrong assertions that "MAME is slow because the executable is large". They're the people who have hacked MAME apart in the past to add plugin support, because they wrongly think that if you just delete mahjong.dll it'll magically get faster.
People like Calamity are the sort of people who, in the end, contribute to MAME - not his users. The sort of people moaning about MAME making progress in cleaning up legacy code aren't the ones who contribute to MAME. It's the people who you never see, who stay silent and actually get things done rather than whining on message boards.
You're falling into the same incorrect line of thinking that other anti-MAME apologists have tried to put forth over the years, which is that every user has the potential to be a useful contributor. That hasn't proven to be true in the 19 years that MAME has been around, and it's not true now. Someone who can't even figure out how to operate MAME from the command line isn't going to suddenly turn around and contribute a working driver for Polygonet Commanders. Sorry to break it to you, but the MAME team doesn't hand out participation trophies, and every user isn't created equal. Wake up and smell the shit you're shoveling.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351133 - 03/05/16 04:22 PM
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Ok, let me explain it better, what i mean with "how MAME started". From the majority of users POV, MAME was and is a emulator, nothing more or less and a emulator is mainly there for playing old games from abondened/discontinued hardware. Your problem is, that you face this from your developers POV and now trying to pigeonhole me into a category, even if you dont know my past. To clarify this, i am very well aware of your POV and i really respect all your effort. What you say with "what the developers cared about since the beginning" is not a MAME exclusive thing, there where other emulators with the same aim, but with the difference that they mostly and unfortunately didnt survived your so called "long run". It makes me sad, how you always try to make me look like a complete idiot. So from my POV i am NOT 100% completely wrong and i just wanted to reflect how the casual user sees MAME and that it doesnt matter how hard you try to overlook this fact. Someone who downloads MAME do this in 99% of the cases,with the intention to play games... even if you dont like this fact.
You dismantle my post in a wrong way and try to implement things i never talked about initially. I never said, that people with ancient setups are contributing anything. I only said that people with a CRT setup actually care a lot more about accuracy then most of the people with modern setups. So if you talk about accuracy and kick CRT-support (thank godness it will not happen), you harm people that take care of accuracy, believe it or not. Dont mix two different things, by putting this community into the same category of the guys that are moaning about something is slow. I for example never did this, show me one single case where i did this. I dont give a shit, if game x/y is slow and also never complained about this or said how bad the devs are to us, cause the game could run faster. I am not this stereotype and i wish you realize this.
"You're falling into the same incorrect line of thinking that other anti-MAME apologists have tried to put forth over the years, which is that every user has the potential to be a useful contributor. That hasn't proven to be true in the 19 years that MAME has been around, and it's not true now. Someone who can't even figure out how to operate MAME from the command line isn't going to suddenly turn around and contribute a working driver for Polygonet Commanders. Sorry to break it to you, but the MAME team doesn't hand out participation trophies, and every user isn't created equal. Wake up and smell the shit you're shoveling. "
You are so wrong with this statement and you take this to some extreme level too, by describing it with some noob-kinda person, that cant even operate MAME from the command line. Of course you maybe cant expect much from such a person. I have learned my lessons from the past and you would only wonder what i did silently in the past. Your problem is the definition of "contribute" and only a person who "silently" solves some huge driver problems, is a worth person. Whenever a first post person comes in, you most of the time have the habit to treat it like shit. I dont mind any "participation trophies", i do things because my passion to some emulation drives it and i have no problems to keep it this way. I wish i had your skills for contributing that you consider "worth", but i am also fine with my tiny, small steps i can do. You are blessed with awesome skill, then start to calm your tits. Maybe then you will realize, that you could way faster met people like Calamity for example.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: uman]
#351134 - 03/05/16 05:57 PM
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> Whenever a first post person
> comes in, you most of the time have the habit to treat it like shit.
Look, the majority of your reply is great, and I actually agree with it, but this is the core issue that me and a lot of developers take with your and other peoples' attitudes.
When a first-post person comes in, do we treat these people like shit? No, no we don't.
If some newbie comes along and wants to know how to get up and running with MAME, we're almost always quite happy to help that person and get them running. If someone comes along with questions, we're happy to answer that person's questions. If someone wants to know why something is done a given way, we will tell them.
Do you know what the real problem is? The real problem is that with a lot of posts, it doesn't go this way. More often than not, newbies roll in here full of attitude, full of hubris, and generally seem to act like they can treat MAME developers like garbage because of issues that are usually their own fault. This is the sort of unwarranted self-importance that I talked about in my earlier post: It seems to me like a lot of people would rather believe that MAME developers are complete idiots that have somehow YOLO'd their way into emulating tens of thousands of games. The attitude that these people cop is so much more often along the lines of "I can't get MAME working, MAME is trash" than it is "I can't get MAME working, what am I doing wrong". The fact that you can't see this just proves how blind you are to the sort of acrimony that MAME devs face on an almost weekly, if not daily, basis from users.
I urge you, go look back at R. Belmont's replies to Mamesick. Up until the point that Mamesick absolutely lost his mind and started abusing RB, RB was perfectly civil. He asked him what his use case was for needing DI7 support, and in a subsequent reply, he reiterated that we were genuinely interested in knowing what device he's using that isn't supported by later versions, because we don't want to kill support for older things if we can keep it around, we just honestly didn't think anyone would still be using a system so archaic. It was only when Mamesick started hurling abuse at all of the developers, myself included, that everything went to hell. Maybe I'm just an idealist here, but I would like to think that MAME developers should be able to participate in discussions on these forums without having insults about their sexuality thrown in their face, but I guess I'm not so lucky. Maybe it's just me, but Mamesick has said "I won't lick your ass" to me so many times that I'm beginning to think he has feelings for me that he's not prepared to deal with.
Don't get me wrong, this is hardly a new thing. These sorts of entitled people have been around just about as long as MAME has. The only difference is that back then, MAMEWorld was staffed by people like Twisty, who let these users-with-'tudes run roughshod over the forums, doing nothing but trash-talking developers over issues they couldn't possibly understand. Any MAME developer attempting to meet these users at their level, fighting fire with fire, was summarily banned, because it was so much easier to preserve the circle-jerk status quo than to actually moderate the forums.
Nowadays, Smit seems to have a much more hands-off approach, and lets us meet these people with exactly the same sort of vitriol that they lob in our direction. Yet, as always, you people try to make it out like we're the monsters, like we're supposed to just sit here for 10-15 years and cop no end of abuse from entitled users. Personally, I say fuck that. If someone wants to insult and abuse MAME team members, then that same person has absolutely no moral high horse to stand on and cry from when they get their trash thrown in their faces.
The only reason why you're even saying these things is because certain developers are finally standing up against the seemingly impenetrable wall of entitlement and attitude that so many people on these god-ridden forums throw in our direction. And quite frankly, I think it's been a long time in coming.
Long story short, we're more than happy to be civil to users who are interested in being civil to us. But speaking solely for myself, I have no intention of maintaining civility with someone who comes right out of the gate with an attitude. There's no reason why I should have to put up with that sort of shit over a project that I work on as a hobby, that I don't make any money out of.
Do you want me to be civil to people more abusive to MAME developers than a redneck with a jar of moonshine abuses his wife? Fuck you, pay me.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351147 - 03/05/16 07:48 PM
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Ok, lets keep Mamesick out of this, as this is a hopeless/ dead loss case and the situation is deadlocked. I admit that you really have your enlightened moments, where you are nice, helpful and have informative advices/explanations, but in the wink of an eye this can turn into the opposite. I have a thick skin and beside all the cursing from your side, you are at least still able to answer the questions, so i dont mind the cursing before. I still will never forget the first posts we had, where you managed to write 27 times the word "fuck" in three sentences and if i wouldnt know it better, i would say you are a true "ex-yugoslavian" .
Take a look into the amiga thread at emuversal for example and look how you behaved to a first post person. I dont see any reason, that would explain and justify your and other devs (not all) answers. It is no wonder, that you didnt experienced in 19 years of MAME a case, that a first post user could be useful, if you ask me. I would like to help in that particular amiga-case, but i am scared and afraid it could turn out the same, for the person i would like to introduce to you, not to mention some "nah, keep away that middle-man stuff, (b)uh-man". Sometimes it doesnt simple work in another way. This time i would just exchange e-mails with the relevant person(s), that are responsible for the amiga-driver and maybe have 1 or 2 questions left regarding what you really need, to solve what is discussed in the thread.
To come back to the "silent approach": it is also interesting, that this statement is really true, i mean every dev that approached to me that way via PM and so on, was really kind and nice to me, but sadly you wont see them active in the forums and sadly the forums look often more like a war-zone. MAME enthusiasm can be very difficult sometimes  .
Edited by uman (03/05/16 07:48 PM)
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#351152 - 03/05/16 08:46 PM
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> Nowadays, Smit seems to have a much more hands-off approach,
It's a different world (to me) than it was in the early days of emulation and I've re-thought things. Rom requests for example, are the longest running traditional no-no on emulation forums. I saw the arguments 15 years ago - people didn't know if they were going to be sued over rom linking so there was that tension every day with a new rom post, but now in 2016? Send to pleasuredome and move on. A thread derails a bit? Just enjoy the ride and let's not worry about it. People bark at each other? Let them and go read something else if their horseshit doesn't entertain you.
I think mostly hands off modding is the best way for mameworld in 2016, a push to have the only things censored be terrible things like if someone posts about their human trafficking plans or something. We're not going to ban discussion of a frigging computer program license.
I'm done playing mommy too, separating barking brothers into their rooms. If other mods want to spend their personal free time doing it then they can go for it but this isn't a job. People are going to bark at each other and today I'd rather let them duke it out. I'm not going to stress myself out with making the website "family friendly 24/7" or anything.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: uman]
#351176 - 03/06/16 06:39 AM
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> And what is this "free games" debate lately? I dont see anything wrong with gaming,
> cause thats how MAME started and how the majority sees MAME, even if MAME has grown
> up in the past view years. I dont mind if there are some more games (or less) and
> have no interest to see games appearing at any cost, but if you talk about accuracy,
> i see a big loss for kicking CRT-support and i am sure that i am not the only person
> who see it that way and you should stop thinking that this is only 1% of the MAME
> community and even if this would be true (which is not), exactly this 1% is the
> community that really cares about accuracy, that you initially treat with contempt.
This is wrong in so many ways its not funny.
MAME has always been about preservation. We've been fielding people who say it should be about free games for close to two decades now, there's no "lately" about it. MAME has "grown up" somewhat in terms of development processes in the last year or so, but preservation was always the goal, nothing changed there.
We are not dropping CRT support, I don't know why you keep saying that. We have brought Calamity (of GroovyMAME fame) onboard, and intend to improve our CRT support. The only thing we removed was a mess of obsolete code that depended heavily on deprecated Microsoft APIs.
Finally, far less than 1% of the "MAME community" actually contributes to the project, and strangely enough the people who contribute also happen to care about preservation. We've come almost twenty years with this approach, why should we break it now?
The classic example of an emulator that focussed on playability and supporting old hardware is NeoRageX. Where's NeoRageX now? It got steamrolled by the MAME train. For all the bitching about MAMEdev, the fact that people still use MAME, and in fact have abandoned emulators that aligned more closely with what they demand from MAMEdev, shows that MAME is doing something right.
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Re: From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#351186 - 03/06/16 11:59 AM
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You read only what you want to read. I explained every point in later posts. You where not present at the (initial) discussion (at emuversal), regarding CRT-support, so i can safely say, that the first statements where of another nature and i wrote more than one time, how good it is that Calamity is on board, that the sanity has won and that this co-op is a wonderful thing. So i do exactly the opposite of "I don't know why you keep saying that". You on the other side, tries to make me believe, that the CRT-support thing, was never on a knife edge. Like i said in previous posts, i dont want to clean dirty laundry here and i dont want to add fuel to the fire. You only pick some arguments and dismantle my posts to a degree that is not funny anymore. I am fine, if you dont like me, but if you start like this, than at least take the time and read the full posts, before posting your answer.
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From MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds
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[Re: 
and who you called pigs etc. 
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