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DMala
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Can I tell you how much I hate wireless?
#328636 - 07/25/14 06:48 AM


I am so sick to death of shitty connection speeds, and fiddling with settings, and futzing around with antennas, and replacing shitty routers. The entire 802.11 protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck themselves. I swear to god I'm finally going to lose it, lock my wife out of the house, get a big fucking drill, and run me some goddamned Cat 5.



Sorry about that, I feel better now.



Dullaron
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328640 - 07/25/14 08:22 AM


> I am so sick to death of shitty connection speeds, and fiddling with settings, and
> futzing around with antennas, and replacing shitty routers. The entire 802.11
> protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck themselves. I swear to god
> I'm finally going to lose it, lock my wife out of the house, get a big fucking drill,
> and run me some goddamned Cat 5.
>
>
> Sorry about that, I feel better now.

Tell her go outside and look in the window. Then put the computer into the window. Start up the chainsaw by the window. She start flipping out and lost it. Take a picture of her afterward to post on Facebook or what ever. Be sure tell her it a joke.



W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB



Gor
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: Dullaron]
#328643 - 07/25/14 01:21 PM


> > I am so sick to death of shitty connection speeds, and fiddling with settings, and
> > futzing around with antennas, and replacing shitty routers. The entire 802.11
> > protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck themselves. I swear to god
> > I'm finally going to lose it, lock my wife out of the house, get a big fucking
> drill,
> > and run me some goddamned Cat 5.
> >
> >
> > Sorry about that, I feel better now.
>
> Tell her go outside and look in the window. Then put the computer into the window.
> Start up the chainsaw by the window. She start flipping out and lost it. Take a
> picture of her afterward to post on Facebook or what ever. Be sure tell her it a
> joke.

It sounds like you've been married a few times.



Oh for Pete's sake.
loser.com



MooglyGuy
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328646 - 07/25/14 02:48 PM


> I am so sick to death of shitty connection speeds, and fiddling with settings, and
> futzing around with antennas, and replacing shitty routers. The entire 802.11
> protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck themselves. I swear to god
> I'm finally going to lose it, lock my wife out of the house, get a big fucking drill,
> and run me some goddamned Cat 5.
>
>
> Sorry about that, I feel better now.

What kind of router do you have? Some kind of shitty old 802.11b monstrosity? I bought a new router out of necessity when I moved to Sweden, haven't had a single issue with it.



DMala
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#328650 - 07/25/14 07:29 PM


> What kind of router do you have? Some kind of shitty old 802.11b monstrosity? I
> bought a new router out of necessity when I moved to Sweden, haven't had a single
> issue with it.

It's one of those Cisco ashtray routers, it does 802.11b/g. I haven't heard too many good things about them, but it came free with my cable service. I could probably bitch at RCN to at least give me an 'n', but the thought of fighting through first tier tech support right now makes my eyes bleed.

It's further complicated by the fact that my office upstairs is connected via a WRT-54G, running DD-WRT acting as a wireless bridge, which is a whole other set of headaches. Hence why I am tempted to risk my marriage and go the big fucking drill route.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328661 - 07/26/14 04:48 AM


> The entire 802.11 protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck themselves.

Haha I'm one of those people - I was involved in development of 802.11n. There are a lot of issues involved, and a lot of the time I feel like saying all the people who complain about 802.11 can go fuck themselves.

Firstly, the 2.4GHz band is never going to work well unless you live on a ranch. It's far too crowded. There's only enough space in the band for three non-overlapping channels. If you switch on channel bonding or "wide channels" there's only room for one signal at a time. Sure there are 17 channels or whatever, but they all overlap and interfere with each other so you can't use them all at once anyway. If you're on 2.4GHz and you're anywhere near anyone else on 2.4GHz you're going to be backing off for everyone else's transmissions all the time. You'll also cop interference from leaky microwave ovens, baby monitors, certain cordless phones, and whatever else is using the band.

Spectrum is far more plentiful at 5GHz - you actually get about 16 non-overlapping channels. The biggest drawback is it doesn't penetrate brick and concrete anywhere near as well as 2.4GHz. Antenna choice and placement can make a huge difference to where in your house you get usable signal. 5GHz devices play nicer with each other when spectrum gets tight, largely because they have to be able to play nice with pulse doppler radar in the same band. You're also less likely to be interfering with the neighbours because of the limited range (see, range limitations aren't always a bad thing).

802.11n is a mixed blessing. It gets you better range and turns multi-path reception into an asset. But getting you better range means you're going to be interfering with networks that are further away and vice versa. Yes, 802.11n makes congestion worse by virtue of working further away.

The MAC layer is inherently inefficient, and the overhead for sending a frame tends to grow as you increase the sophistication of the air protocol. You need to do a whole bunch of channel sounding and setup to send your data at high rates, and this takes time. Wireless base stations can do all sorts of tricks to buffer up several smaller frames and concatenate them to reduce overhead, but this increases latency.

Wireless repeaters, WDS, etc. all suck up precious air time as well. They have to deal with the overhead, receive and decode the data on the way in, and possibly handle some errors/retransmissions. Then they have to do the same thing on the way out. If you're using wireless repeaters, expect your latency to double and bandwidth to halve.

People want miracles, but it won't happen, because physics, bitches. Air is a shitty shared medium prone to all kinds of interference and propagation issues. Copper will always perform better in no small part because you have a dedicated channel on each twisted pair. Single mode optical fibre will perform even better on very long runs because it's even close to being immune to electromagnetic interference.

So yeah, if you want wireless, be prepared to deal with physics. Otherwise, you might want to have a chat with God about how the universe should actually work, or you can just go fuck yourself. Or if you think we're all that stupid, go and design a standard with better compromises, get world-wide regulatory approval, and convince people to make interoperable implementations.

More seriously, I get that it's shit compared to wired connections, but can you say with a straight face that the improvements in wireless networking in the last three decades are anything less than spectacular? I mean do you even remember what things were like in the early '90s? We've come a very long way.



Traso
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#328686 - 07/26/14 07:21 PM


> People want miracles, but it won't happen, because physics, bitches.


The answers are in Greg Bear's DEADLINES....um, but watch out for the baddies......

More seriously, though, things like 'scalar waves' and Tesla come to mind in this sort of circumstance....and at the very least I'm still positing the question, 'Why is Tesla's stuff still under government lock and key?'



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Vas Crabb
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: Traso]
#328702 - 07/27/14 03:18 AM


> More seriously, though, things like 'scalar waves' and Tesla come to mind in this
> sort of circumstance....and at the very least I'm still positing the question, 'Why
> is Tesla's stuff still under government lock and key?'

Sorry to break this to you, but Tesla was losing it well before the end of his career. He blew all his money on crazy ideas that would never work. There's nothing to lock up.



Traso
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#328722 - 07/27/14 09:49 AM


> Sorry to break this to you, but Tesla was losing it well before the end of his career. He blew all his money on crazy ideas that would never work. There's nothing to lock up.


Mmm, wiki says this:

Two days later, the FBI ordered the Alien Property Custodian to seize Tesla's belongings,[19] even though Tesla was an American citizen.[63] Tesla's entire estate from the Hotel New Yorker and other New York City hotels was transported to the Manhattan Storage and Warehouse Company under Office of Alien Property (OAP) seal.[19] John G. Trump, a professor at M.I.T. and well-known electrical engineer serving as a technical aide to the National Defense Research Committee, was called in to analyze the Tesla items in OAP custody.[19] After a three-day investigation, Trump's report concluded that there was nothing that would constitute a hazard in unfriendly hands, stating:


[Tesla's] thoughts and efforts during at least the past 15 years were primarily of a speculative, philosophical, and somewhat promotional character often concerned with the production and wireless transmission of power; but did not include new, sound, workable principles or methods for realizing such results.[132]

In a box purported to contain a part of Tesla's "death ray," Trump found a 45-year-old multidecade resistance box.[133]


Estate

In 1952, following pressure from Tesla's nephew, Sava Kosanović, Tesla's entire estate was shipped to Belgrade in 80 trunks marked N.T



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Robbbert
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328724 - 07/27/14 10:59 AM





DMala
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#328783 - 07/28/14 05:38 AM


> > The entire 802.11 protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck
> themselves.
>
> Haha I'm one of those people - I was involved in development of 802.11n.

Hah!

For what it's worth, I appreciate how far the technology has come, and all of the issues involved with it. But none of that really helps when I just want to check my mail and go to bed, and instead get sucked into two hours of fruitless troubleshooting.

I'm pretty much a worst case scenario for wireless. I'm competing with a baby cam in the next room, which has *murdered* my bandwidth since we started using it. I'm also in a wood frame house with four condos in it, so we basically have four networks sitting directly on top of each other, in addition to all of the other networks in a moderately dense neighborhood. Also adding to my frustration is the fact that most of the devices I care about are wired desktop machines, but, for a number of reasons beyond my control, I'm stuck connecting them via wireless bridge.



jonwil
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328785 - 07/28/14 05:53 AM


Replace the baby-cam with one that doesn't use the same frequencies as the other WiFi stuff.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Can I tell you how much I hate wireless? new [Re: DMala]
#328789 - 07/28/14 07:59 AM


> > > The entire 802.11 protocol and everyone who was involved in it can go fuck
> > themselves.
> >
> > Haha I'm one of those people - I was involved in development of 802.11n.
>
> Hah!
>
> For what it's worth, I appreciate how far the technology has come, and all of the
> issues involved with it. But none of that really helps when I just want to check my
> mail and go to bed, and instead get sucked into two hours of fruitless
> troubleshooting.

Yeah, from my PoV it's a lot like when MAMEdevs get annoyed at the, "Why no full speed N64?" questions. There are inherent limitations of physics, regulatory issues, power budget limitations, and countless trade-offs. And the complaints are coming from people who'd have no chance of doing it better if they ever tried. But believe me I get just as pissed off as you do when my WiFi doesn't work - knowing exactly how/why it works (or doesn't) makes no difference.


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