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Question about MAME's intended purpose
#326642 - 06/06/14 02:40 PM
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I've got a question: The Facebook page of MAME says the following about MAME's purpose:
"M.A.M.E. is an emulator application designed to recreate the hardware of arcade game systems in software, with the intent of preserving gaming history and preventing vintage games from being lost or forgotten.
The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered "a nice side effect" ."
I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect while the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
Obviously, MAME is supposed to be a program that allows people to play the games seriously. Otherwise, the MAME team wouldn't invest time and energy to include nice gimmicks that provide a better gaming experience for an actual player, but that would have no value whatsoever for demonstration of the technical aspects of arcade boards.
So, why is this statement about the "nice side effect" even made?
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326643 - 06/06/14 02:51 PM
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I suspect that was MAME's original mission statement. The goalposts have moved somewhat since then it seems, probably due to MAME's massive popularity.
*shrugs*
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326644 - 06/06/14 03:41 PM
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That statement is not a farce. It is still mentioned (wording changed) in the official MAME FAQ and the "about" section at mamedev.org. That is the official stance of the MAME project. Whether that statement is made 100% seriously, or it's done to cover their backs in case of license/patent trolling it's another matter.
And over the years I think the people involved in the project has shown that MAME is really about proper documentation of the hardware. Removing patches and kludges and one-shot tricks to make certain games work, in order to faithfully describe how exactly the hardware operates is just one little example.
And that's the primary focus of the project. That doesn't mean the project doesn't have any other aims. Hence the excellent support for all kinds of inputs, the HLSL stuff, and similar things. Again, when one of these features messed up the documentation side and correct emulation part, it was removed, like hiscore savings. Other features started as a help for devs like state saving and DRCs so they don't have to wait 15 minutes to test if the texture in the third scene after the intro screen has been fixed.
And all this documentation is available to anyone who want to develop another kind of emulator that has as primary focus lightweight emulation in old or underpowered hardware, or reliving the classics playing in a 3D cabinet model in your screen, or substitute the original sprites with enhanced graphics (as RAINE and others have done in the past), or support force-feedback under name-your-os.
And yes, MAME has many features aimed at enhancing the playing experience, and the games are very playable (for the most part). You can argue what you want and interpret things the way you want, but remember that any interpretation is just an opinion, not a fact.
And remember, MAME is a condom 
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326646 - 06/06/14 04:38 PM
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A statement can not be a farce. A book, or a play, or a movie, etc. can be.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326651 - 06/06/14 07:37 PM
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My two cents: games can be played in MAME without any graphic embellishments like bezel artwork, CRT monitor visuals, etc. The addition of said embellishments is exactly what makes MAME an instrument of preservation of arcade history: so that the games will appear on your monitor just as they appeared in arcades 30+ years ago.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: big10p]
#326652 - 06/06/14 08:10 PM
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> I suspect that was MAME's original mission statement. The goalposts have moved
> somewhat since then it seems, probably due to MAME's massive popularity.
>
> *shrugs*
quite the opposite.
fruit machines, pinballs and hundreds of MESS systems shows that documenting properly the hardware is valued a lot more than playing games. and those are recent additions.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: Pi]
#326653 - 06/06/14 08:28 PM
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Quote:
or it's done to cover their backs in case of license/patent trolling it's another matter.
..that's all it was originally for, a misplaced wording in the hope that the Arcade manufacturers legal departments would stay away.
In the highly unlikely event anything ever went to court, such 'cover our backs' mission statements wouldn't have held any sway in legal terms, but I guess it helped Nicola and the rest sleep at night in the early days.
Since then of course, the phrase has been misused and abused by certain MAME dev's to deflect away any and all questions about such stuff as 'Why no 3D graphics card support for the newer 3D games' and similar questions.
Although it has to be said a lot of the more aggressive Devs have either left MAME or mellowed with age and are no longer so hostile to such questions..they've gone soft..
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326654 - 06/06/14 08:47 PM
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> I've got a question: The Facebook page of MAME says the following about MAME's
> purpose:
>
> "M.A.M.E. is an emulator application designed to recreate the hardware of arcade game
> systems in software, with the intent of preserving gaming history and preventing
> vintage games from being lost or forgotten.
>
> The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade
> machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered "a nice side effect"
> ."
>
> I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect while
> the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME
> contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use
> borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
>
> Obviously, MAME is supposed to be a program that allows people to play the games
> seriously. Otherwise, the MAME team wouldn't invest time and energy to include nice
> gimmicks that provide a better gaming experience for an actual player, but that would
> have no value whatsoever for demonstration of the technical aspects of arcade boards.
>
> So, why is this statement about the "nice side effect" even made?
You'll find that statement, copy-pasted word for word, on just about every single MAME website on the net, including the Wikipedia article.
Officially, it is located on the about page, but going back, you'll also find the words "nice side effect" in the readme on the old mame.net website from the early days. The "nice side effect" also lives on today in mame.txt in every official binary and source package.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326655 - 06/06/14 10:27 PM
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> I've got a question: The Facebook page of MAME says the following about MAME's
> purpose:
>
> "M.A.M.E. is an emulator application designed to recreate the hardware of arcade game
> systems in software, with the intent of preserving gaming history and preventing
> vintage games from being lost or forgotten.
>
> The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade
> machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered "a nice side effect"
> ."
>
> I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect while
> the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME
> contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use
> borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
>
> Obviously, MAME is supposed to be a program that allows people to play the games
> seriously. Otherwise, the MAME team wouldn't invest time and energy to include nice
> gimmicks that provide a better gaming experience for an actual player, but that would
> have no value whatsoever for demonstration of the technical aspects of arcade boards.
>
> So, why is this statement about the "nice side effect" even made?
One also needs to keep in mind that the inclusion of things such as artwork and backgrounds, etc., is required in some games in order to properly display what is going on. The fact that the bezels and whatnot can be displayed in games that don't require overlays, etc. to function properly is just a side effect of that. In order to determine if the emulation is correct, one needs to be able to see what the output on the screen is in all parts of the game, so the artwork/overlays/bezels etc. play a huge role in that.
For the HLSL stuff, that is actually another form of preservation. CRT monitors are dead. There are very few, if any, in production, and each time one breaks and is unrepairable, it's gone forever. The HLSL feature, as it gets fleshed out and cleaned up over time, will be a way to preserve the way CRT monitors looked using the LCD/LED screens that are now in mass production and commonplace today.
Preservation isn't just about having documentation of the hardware. It's about being able to preserve how the hardware functioned, how the output sounded, how the output looked, how the cabinet it ran in looked, how the artwork looked, how the controls function etc. etc.
So I believe that yes, the "playing games is a side effect" is fairly true. It's akin to the preservation of old films and old books. By the act of preserving them, you are allowing them to be viewed and read throughout eternity. By preserving arcade games, you are allowing them to be played and experienced in their entirety through the future.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326676 - 06/07/14 10:31 AM
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> I think this statement is a farce.
Funny, pretty much all of your posts are a farce.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#326722 - 06/08/14 06:01 PM
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> I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect while
> the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME
> contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use
> borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
Because we've gone from just documenting the boards to documenting the cabinets too.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: ]
#326917 - 06/14/14 01:36 AM
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> > I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect
> while
> > the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME
> > contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use
> > borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
>
> Because we've gone from just documenting the boards to documenting the cabinets too.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: Pi]
#327155 - 06/19/14 08:04 PM
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> Whether that statement is made 100% seriously, or it's done to
> cover their backs in case of license/patent trolling it's another matter.
Exactly what I wanted to say.
> A statement can not be a farce. A book, or a play, or a movie, etc. can be.
Farce: "An event or situation that is absurd or disorganized:
'the debate turned into a drunken farce'"
Source: www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/farce
> The addition of said embellishments is
> exactly what makes MAME an instrument of preservation of arcade history: so that the
> games will appear on your monitor just as they appeared in arcades 30+ years ago.
Yup. And where do you need this specific kind of preservation of arcade history? When you actually want to play the game.
But, for example, a computer science class that learns about he inner workings of arcade boards of the 80s wouldn't need this. For talking about the algorithm of the ghosts in "Pac-Man", you merely need the board and ROM code and maybe a 224 x 288 pixel window and a keyboard to validate your conclusions. Bezels and CRT filters are only useful for people who actually play the game. Hardware preservation needs nothing like that.
So, if the MAME documentation stated that they want to preserve arcade history and the feel of the games, then I would have said nothing. But they talk as if MAME was supposed to be some mere tech documentation of PCBs. And a PCB doesn't know anything about what the game will look like on a screen, therefore, if MAME was really just about hardware preservation of arcade boards in software form, filters wouldn't be necessary.
> One also needs to keep in mind that the inclusion of things such as artwork and
> backgrounds, etc., is required in some games in order to properly display what is
> going on.
Oh, really? Well, where do we need this? Oh, right: When we actually want to play the game. From a programming point of view, it makes no difference. And that's why I'm saying: The statement that playing the game is a "side effect" is a flat-out lie. The developers of MAME do a lot to make the gaming experience as authentic as possible, far beyond faithfully recreating the workings of the PCBs. Therefore, being able to play the game is the main reason for development.
Nobody would bother to work on MAME if it was only able to play "Pac-Man" at one frame per second with the sound output as a mere wave graphic, just because the code would be a board documentation. The ability to play the game like in the arcade, that's what motivates the people. And one of the rules is to recreate the hardware as authentic as possible. (That's why they don't want software tricks in the program, but the game shall behave exactly like the board.) But if playing was nearly impossible, nobody would care about the "hardware preservation".
> In order
> to determine if the emulation is correct, one needs to be able to see what the output
> on the screen is in all parts of the game, so the artwork/overlays/bezels etc. play a
> huge role in that.
Nope, that's a lie. To determine if the emulation is correct, you don't need any bezel or artwork. The board's code knows nothing of it. For comparison, all you need is the real board. The question which artwork was placed where in the cabinet plays no role here.
> CRT monitors are
> dead. There are very few, if any, in production, and each time one breaks and is
> unrepairable, it's gone forever. The HLSL feature, as it gets fleshed out and cleaned
> up over time, will be a way to preserve the way CRT monitors looked using the LCD/LED
> screens that are now in mass production and commonplace today.
That's all good, but there are two things:
1. MAME doesn't describe itself as a program to preserve cathode ray tubes.
2. The way the monitor displayed the image is totally unimportant if you're just interested in the inner workings of the board. If I merely want to know how data was moved from ROM to RAM etc. in a PCB, then I don't need to know about CRT monitors because an actual arcade board doesn't know either. In the same way CRT monitors are lost for emulation, they are also lost for the real boards. Which is a shame, but if a program explicitly declares itself to be a preservation of arcade board hardware while the possibility to play the games is only a side effect, it shouldn't care about the fate of monitors. This specific topic only becomes an issue if your program aims to make the games faithfully playable again.
Don't get me wrong: I love it that the MAME developers do all this. I'm not complaining about MAME's countless features. My complaint goes to the fact that they claim that playing is just a side effect. If that was true, they wouldn't aim to improve the gaming quality with things that have nothing to do with the inner workings of the board. But since they do include these optional features, obviously playing the game is still the main focus.
> Preservation isn't just about having documentation of the hardware.
Yes, it's exactly that. The text explicitly says:
"The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered "a nice side effect"."
The inner workings are the boards.
These:
And this thing knows nothing about monitors, bezels or specifically shaped controllers.
If they had written the following:
"The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the overall feeling and atmosphere of the emulated arcade machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered a central goal, therefore the emulator goes far beyond just recreating the hardware."
the you were right.
> So I believe that yes, the "playing games is a side effect" is fairly true. [...]
> By preserving arcade
> games, you are allowing them to be played and experienced in their entirety through
> the future.
You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, do you?
And about your movie analogy: Nobody would ever claim that actually watching the movies is a nice side effect. Everybody knows that being able to watch the movie is the central reason for preservation.
> Because we've gone from just documenting the boards to documenting the cabinets too.
You just made this up out of thin air, didn't you? If this was true, then why can I include any bezel with any game? Why isn't there a CRC check or anything similar? Why hasn't the documentation been updated to: "An emulator to preserve the inner workings of arcade boards as well as the optical look of arcade cabinets, monitors and whatever belongs to a full arcade machine."
No, sorry, you cannot tell me that you include these features because MAME has officially extended its preservation to wooden arcade cabinets and monitors.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327159 - 06/19/14 10:54 PM
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> So, if the MAME documentation stated that they want to preserve arcade history and
> the feel of the games, then I would have said nothing. But they talk as if MAME was
> supposed to be some mere tech documentation of PCBs. And a PCB doesn't know anything
> about what the game will look like on a screen, therefore, if MAME was really just
> about hardware preservation of arcade boards in software form, filters wouldn't be
> necessary.
It's not just about the PCBs; it's also about the relevant cabinet components that went into what the games actually looked like at the time. And CRTs and their foibles are a *huge* part of that.
> > One also needs to keep in mind that the inclusion of things such as artwork and
> > backgrounds, etc., is required in some games in order to properly display what is
> > going on.
>
> Oh, really? Well, where do we need this? Oh, right: When we actually want to play the
> game. From a programming point of view, it makes no difference.
Incorrect. For games like Golly! Ghost the electromechanical elements are as much a part of the game's operation as the ROM code. The sensors that tell where the mechnical stuff is feeds back to the board, so the board is not properly documented if there isn't some kind of simulation of the mechanical bits.
> Nobody would bother to work on MAME if it was only able to play "Pac-Man" at one
> frame per second with the sound output as a mere wave graphic, just because the code
> would be a board documentation.
You say this at a time when the majority of the dev team spends the majority of their time on MESS, sometimes on machines that had no games at all, and many of which do not run 100% on any computer available.
> But if playing was nearly
> impossible, nobody would care about the "hardware preservation".
No end user would. MAMEdev would roll merrily along.
> > In order
> > to determine if the emulation is correct, one needs to be able to see what the
> output
> > on the screen is in all parts of the game, so the artwork/overlays/bezels etc. play
> a
> > huge role in that.
>
> Nope, that's a lie. To determine if the emulation is correct, you don't need any
> bezel or artwork. The board's code knows nothing of it. For comparison, all you need
> is the real board. The question which artwork was placed where in the cabinet plays
> no role here.
Incorrect. For games with e.g. colored overlays and the like, you are not giving an accurate representation of the operation without them. Bezels and such similarly offer a more accurate representation of how the machine operated.
> That's all good, but there are two things:
> 1. MAME doesn't describe itself as a program to preserve cathode ray tubes.
CRTs are a pretty vital part of accurately representing the operation of these games, so we've gotten into that business.
> 2. The way the monitor displayed the image is totally unimportant if you're just
> interested in the inner workings of the board. If I merely want to know how data was
> moved from ROM to RAM etc. in a PCB, then I don't need to know about CRT monitors
> because an actual arcade board doesn't know either.
You're welcome to run -video none -debug if that's the only part of the operation you're interested in.
Basically, I don't get why this is so important to you. The statement that gameplay is a nice side effect is entirely true, you will never ever get MAMEdev to admit otherwise (because the statement is true), and your arguing otherwise changes nothing.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327161 - 06/19/14 11:07 PM
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I don't know why you quote parts of other messages in an answer to my message. Your supposedly logic arguments are a post-facto rationalization of one or all of the following:
* You want to troll.
* You want to show you're smarter than anyone because you've spotted a supposed flaw somewhere and want to rub it on.
* You do not understand what you did read.
* Doesn't matter which arguments others lie before you, yours will be better.
* You're bored.
So I haven't torn down each and every of your assumptions (note that I haven't even tried to use the word affirmations) because it seems it would be futile to argue with someone as "enlightened" as you (quotes intended as sarcasm, to avoid confusion). You will not either understand the condom analogy, so I'll spare you of it so you can feel better with yourself. To sum up each and every refutation of each and every statement you might make regarding these matters in the future, I'll use three words:
* Wrong.
* Are.
* You.
Order them in any way you want, for entertainment purposes.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: R. Belmont]
#327180 - 06/20/14 05:23 AM
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> Basically, I don't get why this is so important to you.
Because he thinks that if MAMEdev is untruthful in this matter, then the moment he gets MAMEdev to change their tune and say "it's about simulating the experience, playing games is the central goal of this project" then he gets to ask questions like:
- what about netplay? that simulates my home arcade experience
- I like 2xsai filter, please add it
- why are these ROM things so illegal anyhow? just build in some downloader. Or bundle them!
- I want MAME to emulate my homebrew SF2 hack that only stars fat Chun-Li. It runs in my arcade, at least.
It's a slippery-slope argument. Or at least that's my interpretation.
Also, if the statement were indeed untruthful, well, any sort of dissembling the truth probably offends him, much as it might a teenager diagnosed with Asperger's. Wait, perhaps I am thinking of someone else.
[EDIT] Also, what Pi said.
> The statement that gameplay
> is a nice side effect is entirely true, you will never ever get MAMEdev to admit
> otherwise (because the statement is true), and your arguing otherwise changes
> nothing.
QFT.
- Stiletto
Edited by Stiletto (06/20/14 05:26 AM)
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: R. Belmont]
#327362 - 06/24/14 09:50 AM
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> It's not just about the PCBs; it's also about the relevant cabinet components that
> went into what the games actually looked like at the time. And CRTs and their foibles
> are a *huge* part of that.
Please show me the official statement that says that MAME's intention is to preserve arcade games the way they looked back then, including monitors and bezels, and not just to preserve the inner workings of boards.
> Incorrect. For games like Golly! Ghost the electromechanical elements are as much a
> part of the game's operation as the ROM code.
O.k., o.k., I understand that there might be games that have these things. But bezels and overlays are definitely not necessary for getting the board to work properly. You know why? Because when I plug in an arcade board to an LCD TV, we neither have bezels, nor overlays, nor CRT look. And the board cares shit about it.
> You say this at a time when the majority of the dev team spends the majority of their
> time on MESS, sometimes on machines that had no games at all, and many of which do
> not run 100% on any computer available.
But obviously, their goal is to get it to work eventually. Would you still work on it if there was a sure chance that it will never be properly playable? Or would you have started the MAME project if we lived in a world where computers have the power of today, but still work with monochrome text-only displays and cannot show graphics?
> Incorrect. For games with e.g. colored overlays and the like, you are not giving an
> accurate representation of the operation without them. Bezels and such similarly
> offer a more accurate representation of how the machine operated.
Exactly: You need this stuff to have a proper gaming experience. From a purely technical point of view (are the sprites in the right place, is everything synced with each other etc.), you need nothing of that. And since the MAME documents claim that gaming is merely a nice side effect and that the aim is to preserve how the hardware worked, you don't need anything like that. If my aim is to document the works of a car engine in a simulation program, I don't need to add graphical filters that make the car look like it was polished with a certain brand of wax.
> You're welcome to run -video none -debug if that's the only part of the operation
> you're interested in.
Well, it wasn't me who made the claim about the nice side effect. For me, playing the games is the most important thing. The thing is: If that statement about the nice side effect is true, then you should be the one contend with this option.
> Basically, I don't get why this is so important to you. The statement that gameplay
> is a nice side effect is entirely true, you will never ever get MAMEdev to admit
> otherwise (because the statement is true), and your arguing otherwise changes
> nothing.
Exactly: "We're right and no matter what you say, you will never get us to admit otherwise." Yup, you nailed it.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: Pi]
#327363 - 06/24/14 09:50 AM
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> I don't know why you quote parts of other messages in an answer to my message.
Because the tree structure in forums is shit. If I write an answer, I usually summarize everything into one message. No need to write one message per person and to create countless branches. Forums threads should work in a linear way because that's the way communication works in real life. This time, I wrote three posts, one to each answer.
You see how messy this will eventually become?
> So I haven't torn down each and every of your assumptions (note that I haven't even
> tried to use the word affirmations) because it seems it would be futile to argue with
> someone as "enlightened" as you (quotes intended as sarcasm, to avoid confusion). You
> will not either understand the condom analogy, so I'll spare you of it so you can
> feel better with yourself. To sum up each and every refutation of each and every
> statement you might make regarding these matters in the future, I'll use three words:
> * Wrong.
> * Are.
> * You.
>
> Order them in any way you want, for entertainment purposes.
Yeah, funny. You know what I like about the internet? People don't care if someone is just trolling or if he actually tries to make logical statements. If they don't agree with him, they will consider him a troll.
Look at my previous posts: Did I merely say: "I'm right, you're wrong"? Didn't I give specific answers to various statements, trying to refute them one by one? If you think this is stupid, what kind of dicussion would you accept? What kind of statements by me would you take seriously? If your answer is: "None, because you're a troll", well, there you have it: No matter what I write, if good or bad arguments, you will always consider it bad arguments by default.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: Stiletto]
#327364 - 06/24/14 09:52 AM
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> Because he thinks that if MAMEdev is untruthful in this matter, then the moment he
> gets MAMEdev to change their tune and say "it's about simulating the experience,
> playing games is the central goal of this project" then he gets to ask questions
> like:
Firstly: I never ever hoped that the MAME developers will change their statement. I'm not that naive. I just wanted to see how much they'll be pissed again if someone points it out.
Secondly: I'm not a moron. I understand very well that, even if they included a statement about preserving arcade history, this would only count for the way the games were presented in an actual arcade, not for my own personal setup at home. I also understand why MAME cannot include ROM images. I know where to find the ROMs, so why should I ever ask the MAME team to include them? Your examples are ridiculous.
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| drewcifer |
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One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327365 - 06/24/14 10:22 AM
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> I just wanted to see how much they'll be pissed again if someone points it out.
You do know that's the pure definition of a troll, right? 
I'm thinking the word 'again' is your tell.
/Andrew
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327366 - 06/24/14 10:55 AM
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> > You're welcome to run -video none -debug if that's the only part of the operation
> > you're interested in.
>
> Well, it wasn't me who made the claim about the nice side effect. For me, playing the
> games is the most important thing. The thing is: If that statement about the nice
> side effect is true, then you should be the one contend with this option.
how do you suggest to test accuracy of the emulation of each pcb component and of their interaction without running the original code and comparing the output against the real thing?
when even schematics are sometimes inaccurate, the only way to verify whether emulation is good or not is to be capable to run the software and to interact with it as you would in an arcade.
in turn, once the emulation is verified as good, people owing faulty pcbs can use the emulation as a reference to see whether some rom got bitrot or everything is fine
no matter how much you argue, we do not care as much as you about the side effect: it is mostly functional to improve the codebase
if gaming was that important, a lot of crappy hardwares would not have been emulated at all
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: drewcifer]
#327376 - 06/24/14 03:11 PM
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> You do know that's the pure definition of a troll, right?
Not if the accusation is justified. There's a difference between
"Let's see how much the Obama fanboys get pissed off when I tell them that Obama is a communist"
and
"Let's see how much the Obama fanboys get pissed off when I tell them that he didn't manage to close Guantanamo, as he promised."
Trolls usually make up statements and don't justify their view. On the other hand, while my thread might have been provoking, the actual content of the statement is still meant totally seriously. A development team who calls the most important part of a program "a nice side effect", but at the same time puts much time and energy to improve this very part, even though it has nothing to do with their "official" goal (documenting PBCs), is a ridiculous situation.
> I'm thinking the word 'again' is your tell.
This was not referring to my previous posts, but to the fact that the development team tends to get pissed off or react in a bitter way quite often. At least, that's what I observed in the past. Not in my own threads, but in the way they act here in general. They always have a "If you don't like it, fuck off!" mentality.
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: etabeta]
#327377 - 06/24/14 03:21 PM
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> how do you suggest to test accuracy of the emulation of each pcb component and of
> their interaction without running the original code and comparing the output against
> the real thing?
> when even schematics are sometimes inaccurate, the only way to verify whether
> emulation is good or not is to be capable to run the software and to interact with it
> as you would in an arcade.
Yup, that's right. Still doesn't explain why you would need a copy of the wooden border of the arcade machine, though. Neither bezels, nor overlays, nor CRT filters add anything that is needed for verifying the board.
But you know when it is a useful feature? When you actually want to play with the damn thing. So, why was it included? Right: So that people can have an authentic experience when they play the game. That means, being able to play the game is what? Correct: An essential part of MAME, not just a side effect.
> no matter how much you argue, we do not care as much as you about the side effect: it
> is mostly functional to improve the codebase
The ability to play, yes, this might be necessary. And in how far are customizable bezels and overlays useful for the codebase again?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327379 - 06/24/14 03:34 PM
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> Trolls usually make up statements and don't justify their view. On the other hand,
> while my thread might have been provoking, the actual content of the statement is
> still meant totally seriously.
No, trolls hope to make people mad with no specific goal of causing change.
So, again, if you aren't a troll, what is your goal?
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| Mr. Do |
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MAME Art Editor
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327384 - 06/24/14 05:17 PM
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> I've got a question: The Facebook page of MAME says the following about MAME's
> purpose:
>
> "M.A.M.E. is an emulator application designed to recreate the hardware of arcade game
> systems in software, with the intent of preserving gaming history and preventing
> vintage games from being lost or forgotten.
>
> The aim of M.A.M.E. is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade
> machines; the ability to actually play the games is considered "a nice side effect"
> ."
>
> I think this statement is a farce. If playing the games is merely a side effect while
> the actual focus is purely to provide some kind of tech demo, then why does MAME
> contain stuff like simulation of CRT monitor visuals or the possibility to use
> borders around the screen that look like the arcade machine bezels?
>
> Obviously, MAME is supposed to be a program that allows people to play the games
> seriously. Otherwise, the MAME team wouldn't invest time and energy to include nice
> gimmicks that provide a better gaming experience for an actual player, but that would
> have no value whatsoever for demonstration of the technical aspects of arcade boards.
>
> So, why is this statement about the "nice side effect" even made?
I had to re-read this again to make sure I read it right... MAME has a Facebook page? I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure the FB page that has your exact quote is not an official MAME page (even if it does link back to the main site). And the other one that does definitely isn't.
Here is the REAL quote from MAMEDev.org:
Quote:
MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines. This is done both for educational purposes and for preservation purposes, in order to prevent many historical games from disappearing forever once the hardware they run on stops working. Of course, in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games. This is considered a nice side effect, and is not MAME's primary focus.
It is not our intention to infringe on any copyrights or patents on the original games. All of MAME's source code is either our own or freely available. To operate, the emulator requires images of the original ROMs, CDs, or hard disks from the arcade machines, which must be provided by the user. No portions of the original game code are included in the executable.
And to be sure that we are being accurate here, WB shows that it is the same quote going back to 2006:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060213034253/http://mamedev.org/about.html
For shits and giggles, here is the original one from MAME.net
Quote:
Even though MAME allows people to enjoy the long-lost arcade games and even some newer ones, the main purpose of the project is to document the hardware (and software) of the arcade games. There are already many dead arcade boards, whose function has been brought to life in MAME. Being able to play the games is just a nice side-effect. The huge success of MAME would not be possible without the talent of the programmers who joined to form the MAME team. At the moment, there are about 100 people on the team, but there is a large number of contributors outside the team too. Aaron Giles is the current coordinator of the project.
So let's go back to the quote on the current MAMEDev site... let's point out two specific parts:
1) Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines.
2) ...in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games. This is considered a nice side effect, and is not MAME's primary focus.
The MAIN purpose of MAME is to be an inner workings reference, not its ONLY purpose, but its MAIN purpose. And although playing the games is not its PRIMARY focus, that's not its only focus.
So it seems that your main argument is that why is there artwork, if playing the game is a side effect. Let's point to another part of the purpose:
3) ...in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games.
Now... for the most part, yeah, you can say the artwork is "unnecessary" as far as the PCB is concerned, if you are going to be so narrow as to say that's the only point of the project (which it isn't as stated above, but anyway...)
But the artwork system does help in that #3 area of verifying that things work. As a few examples:
a) Triple Hunt is a game where at first glance, without artwork, it probably looks like just a bunch of stuff moving around on the screen. Add in the artwork, and you can see that the graphics on the PCB are interacting directly with the backdrop. Without the artwork, how can it be verified that things are correct on screen?
b) Afterburner II has lights on the cabinet that warn when a plane is behind you, and when they are locked on to you. By simply displaying the game screen, you don't know if any of that has been programmed correctly or not. By having the artwork system in place, we now know it's programmed correctly.
c) In Monopoly by JPM, the lamps and bezel artwork on the outside of the cabinet are an integral part of the game. If all you saw on the screen was the main monitor screen, you're missing a large part of the game, and don't know if any of the other parts are working.
I could go on here with many more examples, but I think that there is enough to cover why there is an artwork system. Also note that none of the artwork is actually hosted on mamedev.org; it's a completely separate site. The fact that there is artwork that exists which doesn't contribute at all to the "hardware preservation" aspect of MAME has nothing to do with the MAME project, and is in itself, a "nice side effect" (if I want to be a smart-ass).
I guess your other point is why HLSL? We could argue this either way. I could say it's because as stated above, the MAIN purpose is hardware preservation, but that's not its only purpose, so MAMEDev are allowed to add features they want. Or... I could go the other route, and say that HLSL is about providing a visual example of how a CRT monitor from back in the day actually looked, and that is a form of hardware preservation.
However, all of the above depends on whether you're keeping an open mind about this whole discussion, or you're locked in to the fact that the "nice side effect" quote is bullshit, and no matter what anyone says, you'll still think it's bullshit. If the former, I think I've made a case and await your counterpoint, or maybe I actually convinced you otherwise. If the latter, well then, I guess it doesn't matter what I write then, now does it?
I can see how easy it might be for you to take the hacked up quote and misunderstand it, so I don't think that should be held against you; not your fault.
Anyway... you asked for fair points, there you go.
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RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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There was a MAME page on Facebook while back.
[Re: Mr. Do]
#327385 - 06/24/14 05:35 PM
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I checked today and it been taking down. No telling when it was taking down. They were showing high scores, snapshots and some other stuff. I never did browse on their page. I just saw what been loaded.
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: Mr. Do]
#327681 - 07/02/14 04:30 PM
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@Mr. Do:
You know, the things that you say are all basically correct. Yes, I agree that preserving the hardware workings is MAME's primary focus.
But: There's a huge difference between something that is a secondary focus and something that is "a nice side effect". And being able to play the games is probably the second most important aspect of MAME (with the ability to emulate the visuals of the CRT screen and the bezels being the third most important thing).
MAME is developed so that you can play the games. The task to emulate the hardware correctly might be more important, but playing the game is the second most important apsect.
It's hardly "a nice side effect". Calling it like that is nonsense.
But it perfectly matches what the developers try to make you think: "Oh, we're only interested in preserving hardware. Playing the games? Pff. Who needs that? We surely don't. Yes, you can play with it. But seriously, that was never our concern."
I agree that hardware preservation is the primary focus and gaming only comes next. But it does come next. A side effect is something that's there, but that isn't really needed. Not the thing that's the second most essential attribute of the product.
Having an easy to navigate menu for a plasma TV is a nice side effect. But the possibility to actually hear the sound of the movie on TV is not just a side effect. It's not as important as the picture, but it's still essential. But if you argued like the MAME developers, it would be: "It's a television. The main focus is on a perfect visual output of the picture. Being able to hear the sound is merely just a nice side effect."
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327684 - 07/02/14 05:56 PM
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> @Mr. Do:
>
> You know, the things that you say are all basically correct. Yes, I agree that
> preserving the hardware workings is MAME's primary focus.
>
> But: There's a huge difference between something that is a secondary focus and
> something that is "a nice side effect". And being able to play the games is probably
> the second most important aspect of MAME (with the ability to emulate the visuals of
> the CRT screen and the bezels being the third most important thing).
>
> MAME is developed so that you can play the games. The task to emulate the hardware
> correctly might be more important, but playing the game is the second most important
> apsect.
> It's hardly "a nice side effect". Calling it like that is nonsense.
> But it perfectly matches what the developers try to make you think: "Oh, we're only
> interested in preserving hardware. Playing the games? Pff. Who needs that? We surely
> don't. Yes, you can play with it. But seriously, that was never our concern."
>
> I agree that hardware preservation is the primary focus and gaming only comes next.
> But it does come next. A side effect is something that's there, but that isn't really
> needed. Not the thing that's the second most essential attribute of the product.
> Having an easy to navigate menu for a plasma TV is a nice side effect. But the
> possibility to actually hear the sound of the movie on TV is not just a side effect.
> It's not as important as the picture, but it's still essential. But if you argued
> like the MAME developers, it would be: "It's a television. The main focus is on a
> perfect visual output of the picture. Being able to hear the sound is merely just a
> nice side effect."
A bloo bloo blurp blurp I know better than MAME devs hur dur
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| Tafoid |
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: Question about MAME's intended purpose
[Re: DaRayu]
#327687 - 07/02/14 06:34 PM
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Not going to quote you directly, DaRayu, or pick apart your words and selectively take what you said out of context because you do enough of that already with the replies of everyone else to fit your interpretation of THREE WORDS in a document.
Simple facts: The term "nice side effect" was added to MAME documents (readme.txt file) as part of the license agreement/goals. Download MAME 0.27 for yourself to see:
Quote:
Legal Issues
------------
1) The main purpose of MAME is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated Arcade Machines. This is done for educational purposes and to preserve many historical games from the oblivion they would sink into when the hardware they run on will stop working. Of course to preserve the games you must also be able to actually play them; you can see that as a nice side effect.
That is the original wording. The original intent was to say, yes, as a result of our documentation and preservation, you also must be able to play the games. It is not MAME's fault that the phrase has been twisted or reworded in a way that causes people to think otherwise. There is no official place for MAME other than MAMEDEV.org. There are also no official Windows MAME forums, no official Facebook groups, Twitter handles, Instagram pages either. Even wikipedia is not under direct control - so if you read stuff related to MAME elsewhere, you may be misinformed. And, before you say it, this forum (mameworld.info) is just a fan site for MAME and emulation where it just happens that some MAME Devs happen to also be a part of the userbase. It is in no way "official".
This discussion has gone on long enough, sadly, and there is no point in continually nitpicking intent vs. interpretation. I can only suggest that you please try to enjoy this project for what it is, not for what you personally wish it to become.
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