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Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
#322106 - 02/17/14 12:15 AM
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Hello to all.
I'd need a bit of help about the ensoniq SQ emulation in MESS.
Long story short, i'm trying to know how the samples are divided and looped, in an effort to replicate the sounds of my SQ1 using a sampler VST.
Some years ago a guy from this site helped me in identifying the SQ1 hardware, and around May 2012 i provided to R.Belmont the dumps of the samples ROM (and the dump of the firmware also), so he could put up the SQ1 in MESS.
I was hoping to get the infos i needed then, but things have gone a bit slow, i still don't have the needed answer, it is about 6-7 years that i'm hoping to have success, and now i'd really need to reach an end.
My question was, and is:
What are the exact initial, ending and looping samples for each of the sounds the SQ lists?
I tried to identify the sounds, but some are really hard... and finding the looping point is even harder.
With that infos, i could then replicate the SQ1 sounds on a VST sampler.
So, there's some programmer that could tell me, by looking at the emulator code, or by debugging it, what are the initial, ending and looping sample indexes for each of the waves the SQ list and play?
I have nothing to offer other than my gratidude (and the dumps i've already passed), but it will be very valuable for me.
Thanks (and sorry for my bad english).
edit:
You can find in my profile my other post explaining perhaps a bit better what i'd need... it's an hard thing to explain for me.
Edited by Parduz (02/17/14 12:20 AM)
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322108 - 02/17/14 12:42 AM
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> Hello to all.
>
> I'd need a bit of help about the ensoniq SQ emulation in MESS.
>
> Long story short, i'm trying to know how the samples are divided and looped, in an
> effort to replicate the sounds of my SQ1 using a sampler VST.
I'm not familiar with the ESQ-1 or the SQ-80 but when reading the wiki it seems there is much more too it than just the wavetable? I've never played one and I don't know what it sounds like but I'm thinking having only the dry wavetable samples in a VST sampler would result in a pretty poor representation. Sure, the VST sampler has LFO and ADSR envelopes for a filter and the sample itself but what about all the rest?
I bet the SQ sounds beastly in monophonic mode...how would you "emulate" that using a sampler? You'd have to have separate samples for monophonic mode.
Buchty.net doesn't load for me but the wiki says a VST already exists..? Are you Rainer Buchty?
S
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Sune]
#322155 - 02/17/14 03:15 PM
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Hey! Thanks for your reply.
> I'm not familiar with the ESQ-1 or the SQ-80 but when reading the wiki it seems there
> is much more too it than just the wavetable? I've never played one and I don't know
> what it sounds like but I'm thinking having only the dry wavetable samples in a VST
> sampler would result in a pretty poor representation. Sure, the VST sampler has LFO
> and ADSR envelopes for a filter and the sample itself but what about all the rest?
Well, to start: ESQ1 and SQ80 are very different machines from the SQ1/SQ1+/SQ2/KS32 family.
About the end results, there's some very good commercial VSTs that could come close to what it was, the best candidate is Camel Audio Alchemy, which have 4 OSC (SQ1 has 3), filters for each one, advanced evenlopes (and a lot of them), a super flexible modulation system and a whole lot of stuffs that i'll not use 'cause SQ1 did'nt had them.
The only thing i can't really "emulate" is the Multieffect stage, but i'd bear with what i'll found.
Anyway, how to make that waves sounds decent is on my part  I could even try to develop a VST. For now, all i want is to know how the waves are stored** and how to set looping points.
> I bet the SQ sounds beastly in monophonic mode...how would you "emulate" that using a
> sampler? You'd have to have separate samples for monophonic mode.
Monophonic? not at all. It had 21 notes polyphony, a 16 track sequencer, drum sounds... to make it short, it was like a Korg M1, just made in US by the SID inventor, so sounding less "japan/arcade"
> Buchty.net doesn't load for me but the wiki says a VST already exists..? Are you
> Rainer Buchty?
No, i'm italian.
EDIT
**
i mean, i need to know at what sample each of them start and end, and i still have to identify (associate to the displayed name) some of them.
Edited by Parduz (02/17/14 03:18 PM)
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322157 - 02/17/14 04:20 PM
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I have no idea about the hardware part, but if you have to solve it manually, which unfortunately is what I have to do a Lot professionally, here's a trick to solve it let's say more efficient. though I'm sure you know already:
If you are sure it is the absolute non-edited monophonic waveform being played, setting the sweet looping point is a matter of zooming in a lot so you can cut it on the smallest amount of time possible. You are a musician, so a program like pro tools (or in this case the free Audacity would work miracles as well) is probably around. Define the first ABSOLUTE full pulse of the waveform and select it to loop. Absolute means you probably have to zoom in to the point of insanity, but it's the only, tedious, tedious way. As zoomed-in as it gets, play the sound and slide the right loop-marker towards what you think is the beginning of the second pulse. Your entire screen should only display like a microsecond. You'll hear when you got it right.
If you want to cheat you could program MHz-crossfades between independent waveforms  just kidding.
Good Luck
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: RATMNL]
#322159 - 02/17/14 04:39 PM
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> If you are sure it is the absolute non-edited monophonic waveform being played,
> setting the sweet looping point is a matter of zooming in a lot so you can cut it on
> the smallest amount of time possible. You are a musician, so a program like pro tools
> (or in this case the free Audacity would work miracles as well) is probably around.
> Define the first ABSOLUTE full pulse of the waveform and select it to loop. Absolute
> means you probably have to zoom in to the point of insanity, but it's the only,
> tedious, tedious way. As zoomed-in as it gets, play the sound and slide the right
> loop-marker towards what you think is the beginning of the second pulse. Your entire
> screen should only display like a microsecond. You'll hear when you got it right.
> Good Luck
Thanks. I'm sorry for not haveing been clear enough, but this is the exact process i started and abandoned, 'cause:
1) It did'nt works for samples like cymbals, anvil hits or any "fast-changing" sounds. Still, the SQ1 loop them (almost) flawlessy.
2) I'm able to identify a lot of different samples in the ROM dump. Splitting them one by one i ended with more waves than the ones listed in the synth. There's some samples i never heard from the SQ1, and some listed sound that i can't find in the samples. I also suspect that the various LFO shapes are stored there, 'cause there's too much sine/tri waves with different frequecy in the samples.... trust me, guessing which is which is hard.
3) There's a part of "non-audio" data at the end of the ROM. Given how hard they've tryed to squeeze everything in the poor capacity, they could be useful data... perhaps a looping table, .... or it may just be garbage....
... so, i need someone which can debug the emulator and look where the synth goes to read the ROMS. I know for sure that the samples are not loaded in RAM but costantly seeked, as i saw this with a scopemeter when i was identifying the ROM pins. I just lack the (old  ) low-level programming skills to understand the M68000 code, or the MESS emulator code also.
I'm a selfmade programmer, born with VB6 and now working on C++Builder; i do Windows program, i have done 3D, directX programs in VB, i build complex programs for automation machinery, but i'm a "high-level" programmer and Mame/Mess is too much for me.... that's why i'm asking for specific help.
Edited by Parduz (02/17/14 04:41 PM)
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322167 - 02/17/14 08:48 PM
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> > I bet the SQ sounds beastly in monophonic mode...how would you "emulate" that using
> > a sampler? You'd have to have separate samples for monophonic mode.
> Monophonic? not at all. It had 21 notes polyphony
I know. You misunderstand. Monophonic mode is when it sums all the oscillators into one. This translates to "fatter" sounds. Like the game over "guitar solo" in Wizball on the C64 for example (it sums two channels to make a fat sound and the third channel plays delayed for effect).
http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Game_Over_-_Wizball_%28C64%29
You can't do that with a sampler, you'd have to create separate samples if you want it to sound like an SQ in monophonic mode.
> i mean, i need to know at what sample each of them start and end, and i still have to
> identify (associate to the displayed name) some of them.
From what I can tell, a sound can use several samples as a base and those could then be triggered independently according to velocity and other parameters. Some of the samples that you found in the ROM are probably single layers of a layered sound.
S
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Sune]
#322191 - 02/18/14 06:47 PM
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> > > I bet the SQ sounds beastly in monophonic mode...how would you "emulate" that
> using
> > > a sampler? You'd have to have separate samples for monophonic mode.
> > Monophonic? not at all. It had 21 notes polyphony
>
> I know. You misunderstand. Monophonic mode is when it sums all the oscillators into
> one. This translates to "fatter" sounds. Like the game over "guitar solo" in Wizball
> on the C64 for example (it sums two channels to make a fat sound and the third
> channel plays delayed for effect).
> http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Game_Over_-_Wizball_%28C64%29
Ok, understood...i think.
> You can't do that with a sampler, you'd have to create separate samples if you want
> it to sound like an SQ in monophonic mode.
There's not such a mode in SQ1. Each of the three oscillators is "alone": it plays a sample through his own filters and envelopes and only "meets" the other OSCs at the output stage, when they are routed to the multi-effect.
So it is a problem i don't have.
> From what I can tell, a sound can use several samples as a base and those could then
> be triggered independently according to velocity and other parameters. Some of the
> samples that you found in the ROM are probably single layers of a layered sound.
No. Each OSC usually plays ONE single sample. You can control the direction and the initial starting point, but still is a single sample.
There's one option to play the whole ROM as a sample (which means that they're not overlapped, just played in sequence as they're stored), which i still have to figure what pratical use it could have.
The only exception to this all could be what it calls "Transwaves", which COULD result in some specific samples played again in sequence. But i don't have the keyborad handy to check how it is, and still it will not be a problem.
Really, i'm confident that i can reproduce the sounds banks with a good precision, if i could know how the SQ1 loops each sample.
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Here is the main table contents. The columns may or may not be start, end and loop positions. The decimal part may be flags, volume, whatever. The other two columns, go figure. Have fun experimenting.
OG.
PS: c1ca14, 14 bytes per record.
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#322222 - 02/19/14 03:40 AM
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> Here is the main table contents. The columns may or may not be start, end and loop
> positions. The decimal part may be flags, volume, whatever. The other two columns, go
> figure. Have fun experimenting.
>
> OG.
... bloody hell.... this is the Holy Grail.... just tried line 07: and i have a bass sample, starting at the sample in third column, ending at the fifth, and perfectly looping between the end and the sample at the fourth column.
Now, while here is 2:25 AM and i'm no more able to handle this all without some sleep, and while i wish to you and your whole family and relatives a mountain of gold, eternal health and whatever you're hoping for, do you care to enlight me a little about this?
> PS: c1ca14, 14 bytes per record.
What exactly mean "c1ca14"?
I was thinking that they were 14 bytes like this:
(line 0 as example: 0: c4 00 00001.07f 00000.000 007d3.000)
0: c4 00 00 00 1.0 7f 00 00 0.0 00 00 7d 3.0 00
... the "nibble-ized" bytes makes me unsure... also i don't know why 3-digit decimals
And then i don't understand these lines:
Code:
257: c6 0e 18001c.07f fcf1c.080 fd01c.000
258: c6 0c 18001e.07f fd31e.080 fd41e.000
259: c3 a3 180020.07f fd706.080 fd7e5.000
260: dc 8d fff5007f.02c fba0e.080 fbbe4.001
261: dd 7e fff50001.034 fbc10.080 fbe00.001
262: dd 7e fff50003.03c fbe12.080 fc002.001
263: dd 7e fff50005.044 fc016.080 fc206.001
264: dd 7e fff60007.04c fc21e.080 fc40e.001
265: dd 7e fff80009.054 fc423.080 fc613.001
... sorry if i'm dumb, but would you teach me how these numbers are made?
Anyway, i can't thank you enough.
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322254 - 02/19/14 08:58 PM
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> > PS: c1ca14, 14 bytes per record.
>
> What exactly mean "c1ca14"?
The list of wave records is in the SQ-1's ROM at c1ca14. You can pull up a memory window in MAME's debugger, go to that address, and see the "raw" wave records.
> I was thinking that they were 14 bytes like this:
> (line 0 as example: 0: c4 00 00001.07f 00000.000 007d3.000)
>
> 0: c4 00 00 00 1.0 7f 00 00 0.0 00 00 7d 3.0 00
> ... the "nibble-ized" bytes makes me unsure... also i don't know why 3-digit decimals
The decimals are because the ES5505/06 work in fixed point with an 11 bit fractional part and a 21 bit integer. This gives greater precision when looping and doing interpolation between samples, but it's not as useful if you just want to load the waves into Kontakt or whatever.
Note also that some of the patches' sound comes primarily from the DSP program rather than the raw waves - the SQ-1 "ANALOG POWER" is much less interesting without the reverb, for instance, although in a VST environment that's pretty easy to make up for
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: R. Belmont]
#322266 - 02/19/14 11:12 PM
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> > > PS: c1ca14, 14 bytes per record.
> >
> > What exactly mean "c1ca14"?
>
> The list of wave records is in the SQ-1's ROM at c1ca14. You can pull up a memory
> window in MAME's debugger, go to that address, and see the "raw" wave records.
Ok, i'll try to do it...
...isn't the table "hardcoded" in the firmware? i searched for that values in the .bin but was'nt able to find them.
Anyway... could you explain that "longer lines2 i quoted?
> Note also that some of the patches' sound comes primarily from the DSP program rather
> than the raw waves - the SQ-1 "ANALOG POWER" is much less interesting without the
> reverb, for instance, although in a VST environment that's pretty easy to make up for
I know. Using the 16 tracks sequencer with just ONE FX set for them all was a pain and a training in compromises.
Anyway, i strongly love the "Analog Power" patch for how the filters are modulated. It's still the best "Jump" sound i've heard.... is a sound that i find pretty expressive.... the other much loved ones where ROM Mystic and Super Pad, and Glory which is a patch i got with an expansion card i bought, but i don't remember the sound bank producer name.
Back to the topic, i've done a quick conversion HEX -> Decimals -> SFZ opcodes with excel and now i have an half playable SFZ bank. The integer part of the last three columns are for sure start/loop/end values.... still there's something that does not fit exactly, but i'll catch it.
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322267 - 02/19/14 11:33 PM
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> ...isn't the table "hardcoded" in the firmware? i searched for that values in the
> .bin but was'nt able to find them.
Correct. C1CA14 is offset 1CA14 in the firmware. Note that the firmware is split up so each ROM file contains every other byte; you must combine them first to get the full image.
> Anyway... could you explain that "longer lines2 i quoted?
Those lines appear to be for invalid waves, perhaps ones that were removed prior to launch.
> Anyway, i strongly love the "Analog Power" patch for how the filters are modulated.
> It's still the best "Jump" sound i've heard.... is a sound that i find pretty
> expressive....
Yeah, it's a terrific "Jump" sound for a digital synth (works great for "Subdivisions", too, and probably other famous Oberheim-using songs).
> Back to the topic, i've done a quick conversion HEX -> Decimals -> SFZ opcodes with
> excel and now i have an half playable SFZ bank. The integer part of the last three
> columns are for sure start/loop/end values.... still there's something that does not
> fit exactly, but i'll catch it.
Very cool!
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: R. Belmont]
#322273 - 02/20/14 02:01 AM
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> > Anyway, i strongly love the "Analog Power" patch for how the filters are modulated.
> > It's still the best "Jump" sound i've heard.... is a sound that i find pretty
> > expressive....
>
> Yeah, it's a terrific "Jump" sound for a digital synth (works great for
> "Subdivisions", too, and probably other famous Oberheim-using songs).
Haha does it make me a total synth nerd to know exactly what you guys mean about here?
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: R. Belmont]
#322317 - 02/20/14 07:10 PM
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Ok, things are rolling pretty well:
Only the first 256 lines of the given table are actual "samples". What's below that line is a mistery, but it's not playable.
I put "samples" in quotes 'cause 4 entries "points" to the same area (line 256 is the fourth occourence) so i suspect that it really means "end of .... something".
Question: the table was that size 'cause it was somewhat declared and "pointed" in that way in the debugger, or was just a guessing 'cause the similarity of the data?
The loops points works almost flawlessy, and this means that the most hard and boring part of my task is already done.
What it remains to me is to identify some sounds, that i can't with just my ears.
There's any chance to get some help on them? Is the MESS SQ1 emulation playable, or it requires a hack to accept MIDI notes?
The basic question is: how much is hard for a "mame-noob" like me to get the emulated SQ1 play notes and look at what ROM address it is reading?
I don't think it's trivial without any help and guide, but i really don't know.
Is it an hard task for an expert person? OR: is it hard to write something that write what i need on screen?
-EDIT-
OR, if it is easier, someone could find what happens when the display is updated with the choosen sample name and "family" and look who point to that sample table...somewhere there's an association between the sample name strings and the samples table....
> The decimals are because the ES5505/06 work in fixed point with an 11 bit fractional
> part and a 21 bit integer. This gives greater precision when looping and doing
> interpolation between samples, but it's not as useful if you just want to load the
> waves into Kontakt or whatever.
There's an HEX Editor able to show this kind of Type?
Thanks again to all, i'm going back to the virtual sampler.
Edited by Parduz (02/20/14 08:34 PM)
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#322318 - 02/20/14 07:13 PM
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> > > Anyway, i strongly love the "Analog Power" patch for how the filters are
> modulated.
> > > It's still the best "Jump" sound i've heard.... is a sound that i find pretty
> > > expressive....
> >
> > Yeah, it's a terrific "Jump" sound for a digital synth (works great for
> > "Subdivisions", too, and probably other famous Oberheim-using songs).
>
> Haha does it make me a total synth nerd to know exactly what you guys mean about
> here?
I don't know
My synth knowledge is pretty scarce (i only had the SQ1 and the Korg WS/AD) but i know what we're talking here, so perhaps it depends on your own grade of "specialization" .... or year of birth
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322322 - 02/20/14 09:09 PM
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> Question: the table was that size 'cause it was somewhat declared and "pointed" in
> that way in the debugger, or was just a guessing 'cause the similarity of the data?
Pure guessing.
> What it remains to me is to identify some sounds, that i can't with just my ears.
> There's any chance to get some help on them? Is the MESS SQ1 emulation playable, or
> it requires a hack to accept MIDI notes?
I think you can send midi to it, but I have no idea how it's done on windows.
> The basic question is: how much is hard for a "mame-noob" like me to get the emulated
> SQ1 play notes and look at what ROM address it is reading?
Change the #define LOG_COMMANDS from 0 to 1 in src/emu/sound/es5506.c and you should have everything in a new es.log file.
> OR, if it is easier, someone could find what happens when the display is updated with
> the choosen sample name and "family" and look who point to that sample
> table...somewhere there's an association between the sample name strings and the
> samples table....
That would be more work than what I'm ready to do :-)
OG.
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322323 - 02/20/14 09:40 PM
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> There's any chance to get some help on them? Is the MESS SQ1 emulation playable, or
> it requires a hack to accept MIDI notes?
The MESS SQ1 emulation plays, including the ES5510 effects DSP. You need a MIDI interface and external MIDI keyboard or a USB-MIDI keyboard. Obviously it helps if your MIDI controller or keyboard can send Program Change messages to navigate the sounds
Run mess -listmidi to see recognized MIDI interfaces, and then mess sq1 -midiin (the name of the interface) to play the SQ1 remotely. There is significant latency right now; we hope to reduce it a lot.
If the name of the interface has a space in it (for instance, my USB-MIDI keyboard shows as "KeyStudio MIDI 1" in -listmidi) put quotes around the name. So mess sq1 -midiin "KeyStudio MIDI 1" would work.
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: R. Belmont]
#322331 - 02/21/14 01:53 AM
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> > There's any chance to get some help on them? Is the MESS SQ1 emulation playable, or
> > it requires a hack to accept MIDI notes?
>
> The MESS SQ1 emulation plays, including the ES5510 effects DSP. You need a MIDI
> interface and external MIDI keyboard or a USB-MIDI keyboard. Obviously it helps if
> your MIDI controller or keyboard can send Program Change messages to navigate the
> sounds
>
> Run mess -listmidi to see recognized MIDI interfaces, and then mess sq1 -midiin (the
> name of the interface) to play the SQ1 remotely. There is significant latency right
> now; we hope to reduce it a lot.
>
> If the name of the interface has a space in it (for instance, my USB-MIDI keyboard
> shows as "KeyStudio MIDI 1" in -listmidi) put quotes around the name. So mess sq1
> -midiin "KeyStudio MIDI 1" would work.
Well, there's no button in the SQ1 interface.... how should i reach the patch edit page and scroll the available samples?
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#322370 - 02/21/14 01:55 PM
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> > > Anyway, i strongly love the "Analog Power" patch for how the filters are
> modulated.
> > > It's still the best "Jump" sound i've heard.... is a sound that i find pretty
> > > expressive....
> >
> > Yeah, it's a terrific "Jump" sound for a digital synth (works great for
> > "Subdivisions", too, and probably other famous Oberheim-using songs).
>
> Haha does it make me a total synth nerd to know exactly what you guys mean about
> here?
yeah... it sorta does
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"Those voices in his head might not be real, but they have really good ideas!"
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> Here is the main table contents. The columns may or may not be start, end and loop
> positions. The decimal part may be flags, volume, whatever. The other two columns, go
> figure. Have fun experimenting.
If anyone else is interested in this all, here's the meaning of the data in the given table, from line 0 to line 256:
262 - column 1 = Sample Key note #
column 2 = unknown (but i suspect it could be some sort of fine-tuning for the sample, perhaps in semitone cents)
Integer of column 3 = Sound start sample.
Decimal of column 3 = upper note #. Usually 127, but used in the multi-sampled sounds like piano, strings, saxophone etc.
Integer of column 4 = Sound loop start sample.
Decimal of column 4 = Bitmask: 0x01 = Loop-able sound, 0x03 = unknown
Integer of column 5 = Sound end sample.
Decimal of column 5 = unknown
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9716
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: Parduz]
#322396 - 02/21/14 11:00 PM
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> Well, there's no button in the SQ1 interface.... how should i reach the patch edit
> page and scroll the available samples?
For now your best bet is to control it from a real SQ1 by MIDI In. There is some limited SQ-1 panel control in the driver using your PC's keyboard (the R and T keys are patch up/down) but I could use a list of what buttons a real SQ-1 keyboard has on the panel. My SQ-Rack isn't quite the same
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Re: Asking for help from a programmer about Ensoniq emulation
[Re: R. Belmont]
#322398 - 02/21/14 11:34 PM
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> > Well, there's no button in the SQ1 interface.... how should i reach the patch edit
> > page and scroll the available samples?
>
> For now your best bet is to control it from a real SQ1 by MIDI In. There is some
> limited SQ-1 panel control in the driver using your PC's keyboard (the R and T keys
> are patch up/down) but I could use a list of what buttons a real SQ-1 keyboard has on
> the panel. My SQ-Rack isn't quite the same
Well, the buttons on the right are eight, not six, but everything else is there.
Edited by Parduz (02/21/14 11:34 PM)
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[Re: 
I could even try to develop a VST. For now, all i want is to know 
just kidding.
) low-level programming skills to understand the M68000 code, or the MESS emulator code also.
