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WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
#314989 - 09/23/13 10:11 PM
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| redk9258 |
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: Firehawke]
#314995 - 09/23/13 11:07 PM
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I haven't tried it yet, but holy smokes it DOES look pretty cool.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: Firehawke]
#314996 - 09/23/13 11:30 PM
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It's really nice to see someone take a preliminary feature and make improvements to it making it that much better.
Awesome work Firehawke 
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: B2K24]
#315023 - 09/24/13 08:39 PM
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Awesome progress.
Just a thought. In theory, you could also mimic MAWS with this ?
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: zambr]
#315025 - 09/24/13 09:50 PM
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In theory. Even if we do it, it's probably a long ways off, and I'm not sure if it's even in the scope of MAME and MESS.
Then again, with the MAWS generation code, I could probably have it dynamically generate the necessary HTML during the compile process..
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: Firehawke]
#315034 - 09/25/13 02:29 AM
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Nice work, Firehawke!
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Sorry, my English is bad!!!
Slackware Linux 14.2 beta 2/Fluxbox 1.3.7
Linux user #438128
MAME for Slackware
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"...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Firehawke]
#315076 - 09/26/13 10:28 PM
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Is this dependent on mobile device usage? Cos on my dekstops/gaming rigs I'm not seeing a need for myself.
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Scifi frauds. SF illuminates.
_________________
Culture General Contact Unit (Eccentric)
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Traso]
#315077 - 09/26/13 10:30 PM
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Eventually, the goal is to get to where you can remote control aspects of MAME and MESS that are slightly less friendly to get to-- for instance, floppies in MESS.
There's not much point to remote controlling a MAME or MESS instance from the same PC, but it'd be useful for MAME cabs, MESS installs where you have a tablet or smartphone handy, etc.
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Firehawke]
#315085 - 09/27/13 02:31 AM
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> Eventually, the goal is to get to where you can remote control aspects of MAME and
> MESS that are slightly less friendly to get to-- for instance, floppies in MESS.
>
> There's not much point to remote controlling a MAME or MESS instance from the same
> PC, but it'd be useful for MAME cabs, MESS installs where you have a tablet or
> smartphone handy, etc.
Well, your work does seem pretty neat, but as long as you're on the subject - I understand the point he's making. I've seen many MAME cabs controlled easily with something like a wireless keyboard/touchpad, which is a required component anyway, and doesn't require a fullblown web server that I imagine would tax resources (minimally, but precious in some emulated scenarios) and introduce potential known and unknown security issues, especially when things like file system access are involved. It would likewise seem a bit clunky to require a separate device to control MESS rather than an internal UI that can be more easily toggled on/off by the same keyboard as used by the emulated system when needed.
This may be an incorrect or unfair conclusion, but certainly by the sounds of things, I'm guessing there are plans to eventually scrap or abandon the internal UI rather than improve it, to make way for the internal MAME/MESS web server as a requirement at some point in the future. That's difficult to reconcile and understand. Don't mean to sound like a downer since some people here are interested in this feature, but as you surmised in your blog, it shouldn't be hard for anyone to see why folks like Traso don't get it(tm).
On the bright side, hopefully these assumptions are at least somewhat wrong and the internal UI can be modernized with similar features and a more mobile-friendly touch interface as other similar projects have done. Who knows. The http feature does sound like it could be a nice idea either way and may have some benefit down the road as an optional interface though.
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Shoegazr]
#315086 - 09/27/13 02:38 AM
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You're reading WAY too much into this. They're side-by-side. This does not and WILL NEVER replace the OSD UI. Period.
The current process of inserting a floppy in MESS on Windows using the internal UI:
1. Switch off of full keyboard mode using scroll lock.
2. Hit tab to go into the OSD UI
3. Choose File Manager, Drive, choose image of choice
4. Exit the OSD UI through either TAB again or exiting back through the top menu.
5. Scroll lock to get back into full keyboard mode.
In particular, the difference between full and partial keyboard modes tends to seriously confuse people.
Under the web interface (when fully implemented):
1. Open browser on tablet or phone to the web server.
2. Image menu, Drive, choose image of choice
The web server IS and will CONTINUE to be an optional thing that uses minimal additional resources.
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Firehawke]
#315090 - 09/27/13 04:43 AM
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> You're reading WAY too much into this. They're side-by-side. This does not and WILL
> NEVER replace the OSD UI. Period.
I think you're being a bit too emotional about this but anyway that's good to hear. Maybe it's just wishful thinking that the internal UI gets as much love sometime in the future.
> The current process of inserting a floppy in MESS on Windows using the internal UI:
Right, and the way you've presented it sounds like a big deal - 5 steps vs. 2 - but notice the internal UI steps boil down to only a few keypresses extra (scroll lock and tab) and the web interface steps omit finding the phone if it isn't nearby, picking up the phone, finding the web browser, entering the URL, etc. I personally think the former is easier, but not everyone's usage pattern is the same, so perhaps others are different. Think about how divided the Office ribbon interface topic is/was, and... yeah. Who was right? Who was wrong? Impossible to say.
Again, please don't misconstrue - as I said, your work seems pretty neat to me with a refreshingly modern look. I'm sure in the future we'll see benefits that may outweigh any usage, security etc. drawbacks. Either way though, you surmised in your own blog that people will have other opinions, so I think you've allowed some room for that, no?
ETA: also just want you to know that I do strongly believe you should continue what you're doing. It's awesome and rare to see such fresh air being piped into the project by someone who cares enough to devote time and effort and give back. It's far more than the majority of us who have mostly just taken. So, thank you!
Edited by Shoegazr (09/27/13 05:04 AM)
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Firehawke]
#315095 - 09/27/13 07:51 AM
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> Under the web interface (when fully implemented):
>
> 1. Open browser on tablet or phone to the web server.
> 2. Image menu, Drive, choose image of choice
I think this will be one of the biggest benefits of the web server. As of now, changing floppies in MESS is a bit of a PITA.
I'm looking forward to future progress and you've done a great job so far.
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Waremonger]
#315105 - 09/27/13 11:06 AM
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> > Under the web interface (when fully implemented):
> >
> > 1. Open browser on tablet or phone to the web server.
> > 2. Image menu, Drive, choose image of choice
>
> I think this will be one of the biggest benefits of the web server. As of now,
> changing floppies in MESS is a bit of a PITA.
>
> I'm looking forward to future progress and you've done a great job so far.
yeah, being able to just keep keyboard emulation always on "full keyboard emulation" (=no UI action detected) and use a separate device to manage UI action will be great!
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: etabeta]
#315123 - 09/28/13 09:47 AM
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> > > Under the web interface (when fully implemented):
> > >
> > > 1. Open browser on tablet or phone to the web server.
> > > 2. Image menu, Drive, choose image of choice
> >
> > I think this will be one of the biggest benefits of the web server. As of now,
> > changing floppies in MESS is a bit of a PITA.
> >
> > I'm looking forward to future progress and you've done a great job so far.
>
> yeah, being able to just keep keyboard emulation always on "full keyboard emulation"
> (=no UI action detected) and use a separate device to manage UI action will be great!
I hated the clunkiness of computers as a kid, and happened not to have the opportunity to get one until the time of XP, which (as many such things have in my time) suited me.
I stay away from MESS partly for this reason (and partly cos I prefer [old] arcade games).
So, while this implementation seems to cut steps, it is a work-around - which if I cared I still probably would give it up.
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| B2K24 |
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Traso]
#315124 - 09/28/13 10:48 AM
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> I hated the clunkiness of computers as a kid, and happened not to have the
> opportunity to get one until the time of XP, which (as many such things have in my
> time) suited me.
>
> I stay away from MESS partly for this reason (and partly cos I prefer [old] arcade
> games).
>
> So, while this implementation seems to cut steps, it is a work-around - which if I
> cared I still probably would give it up.
What?
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: B2K24]
#315125 - 09/28/13 11:39 AM
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> > I hated the clunkiness of computers as a kid, and happened not to have the
> > opportunity to get one until the time of XP, which (as many such things have in my
> > time) suited me.
> >
> > I stay away from MESS partly for this reason (and partly cos I prefer [old] arcade
> > games).
> >
> > So, while this implementation seems to cut steps, it is a work-around - which if I
> > cared I still probably would give it up.
>
> What?
Basically he’s saying that computers of the vintage MESS emulates were too difficult to use at the time, so he isn’t going to be using them in MESS either. Somehow in his world this means that features useful for MESS shouldn’t be developed.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#315184 - 09/30/13 05:14 PM
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> Basically he’s saying that computers of the vintage MESS emulates were too difficult
> to use at the time, so he isn’t going to be using them in MESS either. Somehow in his
> world this means that features useful for MESS shouldn’t be developed.
Yeah, that's what I got out of it too. And he's missing out, because MESS with software lists makes playing games on supported computers just as easy as playing MAME. "mess apple2gs rastan" or "mess a2600 et" means you don't have to interact with the internal UI at all if you don't want to, and you get a nice set of curated software just like MAME.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Shoegazr]
#315186 - 09/30/13 05:35 PM
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> Right, and the way you've presented it sounds like a big deal - 5 steps vs. 2 - but
> notice the internal UI steps boil down to only a few keypresses extra (scroll lock
> and tab) and the web interface steps omit finding the phone if it isn't nearby,
> picking up the phone, finding the web browser, entering the URL, etc.
I can assure you, as one of the heaviest users of emulated computers on MESS, it *is* a big deal. Especially since your UI keystrokes leak through to the emulated system. You press Enter several times in the disk switch process; underneath the UI the system is likely saying "switch disks then press Enter" and at least one Apple IIgs game crashes if you press Enter without the correct disk in.
At the same time, you can also do it from a browser on your local computer with a single-click bookmark. This usage closely tracks how many other computer emulators work where you have an emulation window and a second control window which handles media and configuration, often "live" while the emulator runs. I'd originally planned to do the second window as actual hardcoded UI via Qt or something (and we may yet implement it that way too - anything in MAME that doesn't have at least 3 ways to do it isn't worth doing, as long as the backend code is shared). But then I saw that the latest version of the "Sweet16" Apple IIgs emulator had outsourced most of their UI to HTML5, including a working MAME-style debugger in a browser window. And there are many advantages to that setup.
There's also the reverse setup: imagine a future official Android port. Getting the MAME debugger to work on such a device would be painful, and actually using it would be even worse (soft keyboards, anyone?). So in that case, controlling the mobile device from a browser on your PC would be advantageous.
Edited by R. Belmont (09/30/13 05:36 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: WIP: Web UI improvements for 0.151
[Re: zambr]
#315187 - 09/30/13 05:37 PM
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> Awesome progress.
>
> Just a thought. In theory, you could also mimic MAWS with this ?
Generating a live link to Progetto EMMA would be fun too.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: "...either you Get It(tm) immediately and think of a dozen uses for it,..."
[Re: Shoegazr]
#315188 - 09/30/13 05:44 PM
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> Well, your work does seem pretty neat, but as long as you're on the subject - I
> understand the point he's making. I've seen many MAME cabs controlled easily with
> something like a wireless keyboard/touchpad, which is a required component anyway,
> and doesn't require a fullblown web server that I imagine would tax resources
> (minimally, but precious in some emulated scenarios) and introduce potential known
> and unknown security issues, especially when things like file system access are
> involved. It would likewise seem a bit clunky to require a separate device to control
> MESS rather than an internal UI that can be more easily toggled on/off by the same
> keyboard as used by the emulated system when needed.
It's not a full blown server, it's a microserver specifically built for our kind of use case. We wouldn't throw in Apache Anyway, the server costs no cycles when no actual HTML transactions are occurring. It's like the screenshot code or the savestate code or even the internal UI - if it's not running, it doesn't exist for all intents and purposes.
And we are aware of the security implications; the server component we use supports IP whitelisting which will be exposed through mame.ini at some future point.
At the same time, "h4x0rz can take screenshots of my Haunted Castle practice runs" isn't the end of the world, and if you run MAME as root/admin right now there are probably dozens of ways a local commandline user could exploit it to ruin your whole day.
Edited by R. Belmont (09/30/13 05:45 PM)
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