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Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
#313377 - 08/25/13 07:38 AM
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Just curious mainly but I started thinking of it today when I realized MAME is supporting multiboards like Space Invaders.
And for those who don't know what Outrun Enhanced is:
http://reassembler.blogspot.com/2011/08/outrun-enhanced-edition.html
Enhancements:
High score saving using existing RAM (no hardware modification required)
Improved freeplay mode with attract; press start to begin
Music is played during the music selection (radio dial) screen
Dipswitch-selectable "MPH" / "km/h" speed display
Bug Fixes to Sega's original release:
Corrupt audio percussion samples
Spurious sound in attract mode
Misplaced tile on music select screen (above steering wheel)
Mixed up ROM ID numbers on Memory Test diagnostic screen
Incorrect sprite zoom lookup table
Sprite x-position wrapping bug
Version 1.0.3: Corrupt audio percussion samples fixed.
Sprite X-Position Wrapping Bug.
Version 1.0.2: Fixed sprite zoom lookup table. This is a bug in the original game code.
Version 1.0.1: BUGFIX: The in-game music would continually play throughout attract mode if you failed to achieve a highscore. Now the in-game music is stopped at game over.
This issue was present in the original game, but the music would eventually stop during attract mode when the Best Outrunners screen displayed. It could arguably be considered a bug in the original game too.
Please note, that if you achieve a high score, Last Wave is correctly played into attract mode as per the original game.
Note that if you are upgrading from the previous version (1.0.0), you only need to program IC 118 and IC 133.
Version 1.0.0: Initial Release.
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| Tomu Breidah |
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No Problems, Only Solutions
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313379 - 08/25/13 08:38 AM
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> Just curious mainly but I started thinking of it today when I realized MAME is
> supporting multiboards like Space Invaders.
>
> And for those who don't know what Outrun Enhanced is:
>
> http://reassembler.blogspot.com/2011/08/outrun-enhanced-edition.html
>
Yeah, yeah. Cannonball.  It's been posted about here before.
It plays fine on it's own (without MAME), you just, of course, need the correct romset to play it.
Edit: Just to be clear. MAME isn't needed to play it, and since it was never in an arcade...
Edited by Tomu Breidah (08/25/13 09:00 AM)
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: Tomu Breidah]
#313380 - 08/25/13 09:03 AM
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> Yeah, yeah. Cannonball. It's been posted about here before.
>
> It plays fine on it's own (without MAME), you just, of course, need the correct
> romset to play it.
>
>
> Edit: Just to be clear. MAME isn't needed to play it, and since it was never in an
> arcade...
The Outrun Enhanced romset runs on Outrun hardware with no modifications. It's running on a LOT of Outrun cabs currently. And as my question states, why is D2K in MAME since it's basically a brand new game that runs on DK hardware? I know THAT was never in an arcade. It doesn't make sense.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313381 - 08/25/13 09:42 AM
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> The Outrun Enhanced romset runs on Outrun hardware with no modifications. It's
> running on a LOT of Outrun cabs currently. And as my question states, why is D2K in
> MAME since it's basically a brand new game that runs on DK hardware? I know THAT was
> never in an arcade. It doesn't make sense.
You can play it on HBMAME if you wish. Perhaps one day it will make the jump to MAME.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: Robbbert]
#313382 - 08/25/13 09:59 AM
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> You can play it on HBMAME if you wish. Perhaps one day it will make the jump to MAME.
I'm able to play it OK. I'm just trying to figure out why something basically homebrew like D2K is in MAME but Outrun Enhanced isn't. I'm just trying to figure out the logic. Outrun Enhanced is completely in the spirit of MAME.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313385 - 08/25/13 10:43 AM
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> I'm able to play it OK. I'm just trying to figure out why something basically
> homebrew like D2K is in MAME but Outrun Enhanced isn't. I'm just trying to figure out
> the logic. Outrun Enhanced is completely in the spirit of MAME.
d2k was written to be commercially sold, outrun enhanced wasn't.
Which is the usual cut off for MAME.
It's to raise the bar to stop people writing trivial hacks just to get them included in MAME rather than making something that people would find interesting enough to buy.
It has some casualties, but it means we don't spend all our time arguing over what should be added or not.
Outrun enhanced is not very interesting for preservation as the majority of changes are fixing Sega's bugs.
Edited by smf (08/25/13 10:49 AM)
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313388 - 08/25/13 03:12 PM
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> And as my question states, why is D2K in
> MAME since it's basically a brand new game that runs on DK hardware? I know THAT was
> never in an arcade.
It has been put in arcades. You're talking out of your ass to try and get the Outrun hack through your frontend or whatever.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#313389 - 08/25/13 04:20 PM
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> It has been put in arcades. You're talking out of your ass to try and get the Outrun
> hack through your frontend or whatever.
I'm not TRYING to do anything. As I stated, it works for me. I was just curious why other hacks are in MAME and this one isn't, especially when things like the Space Invaders Multi-board are. Was THAT in an arcade to? And since the Outrun Enhanced is a very simple upgrade, how do you know it hasn't been in an arcade - especially when there are forums of people talking about putting it in their machines in arcades? And by your criteria, wouldn't a large number of prototypes have to be removed from MAME? Many of them never saw the outside of the manufacturers building, let alone an arcade.
Also, I read on a different forum that PacManicMinerMan (a PC/platform only game) would possibly make it into official MAME if it were in a cabinet that was bought and sold... NOT if it was in an arcade. I would say the likelihood of PacManicMinerMan being in an arcade is far less likely than OutRun Enhanced being in an arcade.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313390 - 08/25/13 04:29 PM
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I don't know what you mean with "your criteria". I just said it was in arcades. I didn't say that was why its in mame.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313392 - 08/25/13 04:46 PM
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> Also, I read on a different forum that PacManicMinerMan (a PC/platform only game)
> would possibly make it into official MAME if it were in a cabinet that was bought and
> sold... NOT if it was in an arcade.
There are no trigger clauses that force us to include anything. If you sell one cabinet with a PC inside to a friend for the purpose of making us add a game to MAME then you'll be disappointed.
The best way of getting a game into MAME is to not try. We'll figure out whether your game was a legitimate game or not.
Bottom line is we add what we want.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313396 - 08/25/13 06:42 PM
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Quote:
If you sell one cabinet with a PC inside to a friend for the purpose of making us add a game to MAME then you'll be disappointed.
Just for clarification because I phrased it pretty poorly, PacManicMinerMan is remake of Manic Miner (that was a PC/Console game) that was written in 2012 to run on unmodified Pac-Man hardware. It made an appearance at Play Expo later that year so people had been asking if it would be in MAME now. Apparently the author contacted someone from the MAME team and sent them the ROMS inquiring if it would be added and he was told that if a cabinet running his code on Pac hardware was sold and bought, it could possibly make it to MAME. That just baffles me.
Here's a video of it in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux2yoT2UiYo
As far as Outrun Enhanced goes, it's just someone else updating the ROMS to fix bugs. MOST ROM revisions are the very same thing, just done on a more official basis. Had it been a cheesy hack like the 6 shot Asteroids mod or just modified graphics I would not see a place in MAME for it. Since it's what the theoretical final version would have been had it not been abandoned by the developers, I would think it has value, ESPECIALLY since it is running in arcades... somewhere.
Again, as my original post stated, I was just curious why some ROM hacks were included and some were not. I wasn't asking for anyone to add it. I personally don't care other than seeing things preserved.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313399 - 08/25/13 07:08 PM
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> Apparently the author contacted
> someone from the MAME team and sent them the ROMS inquiring if it would be added and
> he was told that if a cabinet running his code on Pac hardware was sold and bought,
> it could possibly make it to MAME. That just baffles me.
Someone from the MAME team might have said that. They might have said it because they didn't think it would happen, if he actually went through with it then it's no guarantee.
A rom swap for pacman boards doesn't really need a cabinet sold. If he was selling kits like d2k then it might count.
However it doesn't really work as an arcade game, the instructions on the bottom part of the screen just doesn't feel right.
p.s. Manic Miner is not a PC game.
Edited by smf (08/25/13 07:22 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313400 - 08/25/13 07:36 PM
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> > You can play it on HBMAME if you wish. Perhaps one day it will make the jump to
> MAME.
>
> I'm able to play it OK. I'm just trying to figure out why something basically
> homebrew like D2K is in MAME but Outrun Enhanced isn't.
I opposed and continue to oppose D2K, if that helps you sleep at night.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313404 - 08/25/13 07:53 PM
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> p.s. Manic Miner is not a PC game.
oh contraire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDEWuju0o4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Miner
Quote:
Official ports exist for the Commodore 64, Commodore 16, Amstrad CPC, BBC Micro, Dragon 32/64, Commodore Amiga, Oric 1, Game Boy Advance, MSX, SAM Coupé and mobile phones.
Unofficial ports exist for the IBM PC compatibles (Windows, DOS and Linux), Apple Macintosh, Atari ST, ZX81, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Neo Geo Pocket Color, Acorn Archimedes, Orao, Z88, PMD 85, HP48, and Microsoft Zune.[9]
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313409 - 08/25/13 08:34 PM
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> > p.s. Manic Miner is not a PC game.
>
> oh contraire:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Miner
>
> Official ports exist for the Commodore 64, Commodore 16, Amstrad CPC, BBC Micro,
> Dragon 32/64, Commodore Amiga, Oric 1, Game Boy Advance, MSX, SAM Coupé and mobile
> phones.
You do know that what you posted backed up smf's point, right? Manic Miner is not a PC game. There's a clone someone made for the PC, but that doesn't make it a PC game any more than MAME makes Tattoo Assassins a PC game.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313411 - 08/25/13 09:12 PM
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> You do know that what you posted backed up smf's point, right? Manic Miner is not a
> PC game. There's a clone someone made for the PC, but that doesn't make it a PC game
> any more than MAME makes Tattoo Assassins a PC game.
I don't see how I backed up his point at all. As I stated, it's a PC/platform game. It was specifically coded for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum (a PC) and was officially released on PC's (several PC's including the Amiga and Commodore 64) as well as several platforms. Also, it was inspired by the Atari 800 game Miner 2049er, another PC game.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313414 - 08/25/13 10:09 PM
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> p.s. Manic Miner is not a PC game.
Err... Actually PC stands for PERSONAL COMPUTER. And CBM64 and ZX81 were (and still are) PCs. So...
In any case, at this point we should include BUBBLE BOBBLE LOST CAVE, DODONPACHI ARRANGE EDITION and so on if only there's a proof they are sold as PCBs and installed in an arcade cabinet, which will never happens.
Edited by Mamesick (08/25/13 10:10 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313415 - 08/25/13 11:22 PM
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> > You do know that what you posted backed up smf's point, right? Manic Miner is not a
> > PC game. There's a clone someone made for the PC, but that doesn't make it a PC
> game
> > any more than MAME makes Tattoo Assassins a PC game.
>
> I don't see how I backed up his point at all. As I stated, it's a PC/platform game.
> It was specifically coded for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum (a PC) and was officially
> released on PC's (several PC's including the Amiga and Commodore 64) as well as
> several platforms. Also, it was inspired by the Atari 800 game Miner 2049er, another
> PC game.
None of those machines are PCs. No x86, no MS-DOS, no ISA or successor bus. In 1985 if you called any of those a "PC" you'd be mocked and run out of town. PC Magazine already existed then and it was clear what the 2 letter acronym meant.
"Personal Computer" spelled all the way out was more flexible, but the 2-letter "PC" even then had a strict definition.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313418 - 08/25/13 11:53 PM
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> None of those machines are PCs. No x86, no MS-DOS, no ISA or successor bus. In 1985
> if you called any of those a "PC" you'd be mocked and run out of town. PC Magazine
> already existed then and it was clear what the 2 letter acronym meant.
>
> "Personal Computer" spelled all the way out was more flexible, but the 2-letter "PC"
> even then had a strict definition.
Wow, seriously?
Well, I thought it was pretty obvious we were talking about the function, not the socially acceptable term. My point still stands, the game was a computer and console game. It's REALLY obvious that it was. BTW, people who used "IBM Compatibles" (the actual term that was used for what you consider a PC) were the ones who were mocked.
From Wikipedia:
For a substantial period (1983–1986), the C64 dominated the market with between 30% and 40% share and 2 million units sold per year, outselling the IBM PC compatibles, Apple Inc. computers, and Atari 8-bit family computers. Sam Tramiel, a later Atari president and the son of Commodore's founder, said in a 1989 interview "When I was at Commodore we were building 400,000 C64s a month for a couple of years."
And since this game came out in 1983, it is safe to say it was selling on the number one selling personal computer - the Commodore 64.
-Mc
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313454 - 08/26/13 11:19 AM
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> And since this game came out in 1983, it is safe to say it was selling on the number
> one selling personal computer - the Commodore 64.
Manic Miner was converted to the commodore 64, but PacManicMinerMan was converted from the spectrum version.
In the 80's they were called computer games to differentiate them from board games. If you were more specific you said which computer.
AFAIK Personal Computer wasn't shortened to PC until IBM used it for their computer line. I don't recall it ever being used as a generic slang for all Personal Computers (in the UK a PC back then was a Police Constable).
No matter how popular you think using PC to mean all Personal Computers was, we're not in 1983 and today PC means something else.
You were at best ambiguous and at worst you were wrong, it's impossible for me to say which.
Edited by smf (08/26/13 11:30 AM)
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313464 - 08/26/13 02:41 PM
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> AFAIK Personal Computer wasn't shortened to PC until IBM used it for their computer
> line. I don't recall it ever being used as a generic slang for all Personal Computers
> (in the UK a PC back then was a Police Constable).
>
> No matter how popular you think using PC to mean all Personal Computers was, we're
> not in 1983 and today PC means something else.
>
> You were at best ambiguous and at worst you were wrong, it's impossible for me to say
> which.
So you're admitting that Manic Miner *WAS* a computer game, you're just not allowing me to use today's generally accepted term of "PC" to describe a "Personal Computer" from the 80's if it wasn't made by IBM (one of the least successful personal computers at the time)?
Got it.
p.s. I pulled out some of my old RUN magazines. It does refer to the C-64 as a PC in the magazines from time to time when it's not calling it by name.
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: McHale]
#313465 - 08/26/13 02:57 PM
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> you're just not allowing me to use today's generally accepted term of "PC"
> to describe a "Personal Computer" from the 80's if it wasn't made by IBM
You're wrong, today's generally accepted term of "PC" is a computer that runs Windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_PC
A Mac is pretty much the same hardware, but made by Apple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_a_Mac
If you don't see why it's bad to use "PC" to mean something different than the rest of society then I think we're done.
Edited by smf (08/26/13 03:02 PM)
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Tafoid |
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313466 - 08/26/13 03:17 PM
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Original question has been asked and answered. Pointless discussion has derailed things.
Closing.
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| Mr. Do |
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MAME Art Editor
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Re: Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
[Re: ]
#313467 - 08/26/13 03:21 PM
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> > you're just not allowing me to use today's generally accepted term of "PC"
> > to describe a "Personal Computer" from the 80's if it wasn't made by IBM
>
> You're wrong, today's generally accepted term of "PC" is a computer that runs
> Windows.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_PC
>
> A Mac is pretty much the same hardware, but made by Apple.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_a_Mac
>
> If you don't see why it's bad to use "PC" to mean something different than the rest
> of society then I think we're done.
Heh... Tafoid beat me to it.
Edited by Mr. Do (08/26/13 03:23 PM)
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Why is D2K in MAME and not Outrun Enhanced?
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