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Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
#304334 - 02/15/13 06:47 AM
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Sup guys,
So....with Haswell on the horizon, will we finally see hardware accelerator support in mame? Haswell is supposed to be the first Intel chip containing a KILLER on board graphics processor, rivaling even the nvidia 680! With this being the case, will the mame devs be able to give us graphics acceleration and allow us turn on various effects such as Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering? I know Rave Racer could sure use some nice effects   
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304336 - 02/15/13 06:54 AM
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Hardware acceleration could happen in MAME at some point, but I don't see haswell being the magic bullet. It's not really any different than having a standalone graphics card, it's just built into the CPU. You'd still be using the same API's as you would right now.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Reznor007]
#304346 - 02/15/13 02:17 PM
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> Hardware acceleration could happen in MAME at some point, but I don't see haswell
> being the magic bullet. It's not really any different than having a standalone
> graphics card, it's just built into the CPU. You'd still be using the same API's as
> you would right now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How do you know this for sure?
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Tafoid |
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304348 - 02/15/13 02:27 PM
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> Sup guys,
>
> So....with Haswell on the horizon, will we finally see hardware accelerator support
> in mame? Haswell is supposed to be the first Intel chip containing a KILLER on board
> graphics processor, rivaling even the nvidia 680! With this being the case, will the
> mame devs be able to give us graphics acceleration and allow us turn on various
> effects such as Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering? I know Rave Racer could sure
> use some nice effects
I would believe anything done with MAME as far as hardware assisted graphics rendering would have to be using something which most people have in their system or have access to and is established technology. If you expect this to be something MAME will use.. you'll be waiting a long time.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Tafoid]
#304351 - 02/15/13 04:25 PM
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lol...hardware acceleration in MAME
15yrs I've been using MAME, and every now and then somebody,somewhere starts talking about 3d cards coming to the rescue of slow PC's.
I'm sure it's been thought about by the devs...for about 10 seconds.
It isn't happening.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304352 - 02/15/13 04:26 PM
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Hahahahahahahahaha.
1) Haswell will not rival the GTX680. Maybe the GT430 or so. It's a major step up for Intel, sure, but it's not going to make the discrete guys sweat. Broadwell *may* break into at least the low end of enthusiast-class GPUs, but that's a year+ off yet. Also, Intel's drivers historically kind of suck.
2) The reason to do hw rasterization in MAME is the now-reasonable installed base of ATI and Nvidia cards that are capable (ie, DX10+ compliant).
3) MAME will never add effects to games that they didn't have originally. Ridge Racer will have no filtering and certainly no ansiotropic. No artifical resolution boosts either - we'll draw to an off-screen surface the size of the original game and then HLSL that up to your monitor size, just like we do now.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304353 - 02/15/13 04:27 PM
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How do I know for sure? Well have you heard of Intel developing a new graphics api for Haswell? I haven't, but maybe I missed it. But what kind of dev would support something new and exclusive to it rather than direct3d/opengl that everything else has supported for years.
Also, mame's hardware acceleration will not cover extra features like anti aliasing or texture filtering for hardware that didn't do that originally
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304354 - 02/15/13 04:27 PM
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> > Hardware acceleration could happen in MAME at some point, but I don't see haswell
> > being the magic bullet. It's not really any different than having a standalone
> > graphics card, it's just built into the CPU. You'd still be using the same API's as
> > you would right now.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> How do you know this for sure?
Because we're not suicidal. Any such rasterization tech would use D3D/OpenGL in order to work on the broadest possible number of cards.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304383 - 02/16/13 01:58 AM
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> Sup guys,
>
> So....with Haswell on the horizon, will we finally see hardware accelerator support
> in mame? Haswell is supposed to be the first Intel chip containing a KILLER on board
> graphics processor, rivaling even the nvidia 680! With this being the case, will the
> mame devs be able to give us graphics acceleration and allow us turn on various
> effects such as Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering? I know Rave Racer could sure
> use some nice effects
Someone already tried that with the PSX-based games by grafting on the PSEmu/ePSXe/ZiNc plugin interface (and violating the MAME license in the process since the plugin code was closed source). The speed increase was negligible and really only made the games "HD-ready" just like the kiddie emulators mentioned above. Besides, Haswell will be Hasbeen two years after release anyway, probably only seeing use in tablets, crappy low-budget PCs from Dell and the like and laptops/SFF machines (on a side note, can anyone seriously imagine MAME running System 22 at a decent speed on a tablet or iOS device?).
Better off just playing the PlayStation versions in ePSXe if you want that HD look, even if it's Revolution and Rage Racer instead of RR2 and Rave Racer.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#304399 - 02/16/13 06:37 AM
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> Also, Intel's drivers historically kind of suck.
And when RB says that Intel's drivers suck, he's actually being very kind to Intel. I have a Core i3-2100 (w/Intel HD 2000) in my HTPC and the Intel graphics drivers are ridiculously bad. So bad that I bought a GT430 for that box and disabled the onboard GPU.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#304411 - 02/16/13 10:59 AM
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> even if it's Revolution and Rage Racer instead of RR2 and Rave Racer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As much as I love those games, they look like shit now. 30fps and brutally disgusting looking textures that make your eyes bleed....not worth stepping back into the stone age for. Ridge 1, 2 and Rave all look better in MAME.
Anyway thanks for clearing that up guys. I admit I over exaggerated on the Haswell = 680 thing. Just thought I'd throw it out there to mess with ya 
Well, let's hope full HW acceleration comes to mame someday. 
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304412 - 02/16/13 12:19 PM
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"Well, let's hope full HW acceleration comes to mame someday."
Yeah...riiiiiight.
Oh look there's a pig flying overhead.
Edited by Ziggy100 (02/16/13 12:20 PM)
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#304422 - 02/16/13 04:39 PM
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> "Well, let's hope full HW acceleration comes to mame someday."
>
>
> Yeah...riiiiiight.
>
> Oh look there's a pig flying overhead.
Actually, Mame emulated pigs flying already:
http://youtu.be/S8Z4lOexiPk?t=19s
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We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304436 - 02/16/13 07:53 PM
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I think the system 22 games have held up ok actually. It's about how they play anyway, not how they look. I thought you were a racing fan 
BTW all the RR games run perfectly on my 2500k using xp64.
MAME's about preservation anyway, if it looked totally different it wouldn't very well be preserved would it?
Edited by RetroRepair (02/16/13 07:56 PM)
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http://www.youtube.com/retrorepair
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: RetroRepair]
#304438 - 02/16/13 09:06 PM
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> I think the system 22 games have held up ok actually. It's about how they play
> anyway, not how they look. I thought you were a racing fan
>
> BTW all the RR games run perfectly on my 2500k using xp64.
>
> MAME's about preservation anyway, if it looked totally different it wouldn't very
> well be preserved would it?
Full hardware acceleration isn't about how they look, it's about how fast they run.
With Namco stuff it's not so important these days since the 2500k became available.
But if you ever want Naomi and other 3d arcade systems to run at full speed within our lifetimes, well, it aint gonna happen without using GPU's.
But the devs have neither the motivation (or maybe the capability) to bother with it.
So people should stop hoping for it to avoid inevitable disappointment.
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| mesk |
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@ the arcade
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304440 - 02/16/13 09:19 PM
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> > even if it's Revolution and Rage Racer instead of RR2 and Rave Racer.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> As much as I love those games, they look like shit now. 30fps and brutally disgusting
> looking textures that make your eyes bleed....not worth stepping back into the stone
> age for. Ridge 1, 2 and Rave all look better in MAME.
If you really love these games as much as you say you do the graphics wouldnt bother you in the least.Personally I love the SNES version of Starfox and I still play it to this day even though the ships look like a bunch a triangles glued together.
Stop being a graphics whore and play the games you say you love
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: mesk]
#304477 - 02/17/13 02:09 PM
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Mesk, there is no need to remind me about the value of gameplay over graphics. Look, I am the biggest Ridge Racer fan you will ever meet. Period. I have invested enough time into the Playstation RR games over the years(ie thousands of hours, literally) and if their graphics bothered me that much I would have stopped playing them long ago.
But let's face it, PSX technology has not done their games any favors in the cosmetic department. The RR games are ass-pimple ugly. I am not a graphics whore, but I am a framerate whore, and after putting so many hours into Revolution, Rage and RR Type 4, am just about done with 30fps racers. If there was a hack or something that allowed them run at 60fps while maintaining their proper game speed, I'd play them more often. But if it's between the PSX RR games and the arcade ones plus Ridge Racer V for PS2, then I'm going with those, since they run at 60fps.
Besides, I have not had the chance to really sink my teeth into Rave Racer. That is why I'm having so much fun playing it now. That City course is sublime, and it was good to finally play it after driving the PSP version and seeing where the inspiration came from.
As for Full hardware acceleration, Ziggy makes a good point. Newer 3D Mame games would benefit tremendously from it such as Naomi, Model 2 and 3, etc. Would be great to see it supported one of these days.
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Rage Racer was bad ass!
[Re: Outrun2006]
#304482 - 02/17/13 04:25 PM
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Love that game! Had so much fun in the PSX/Saturn era
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Re: Rage Racer was bad ass!
[Re: DiodeDude]
#306512 - 03/29/13 09:46 PM
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306515 - 03/29/13 10:07 PM
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> As for Full hardware acceleration, Ziggy makes a good point. Newer 3D Mame games
> would benefit tremendously from it such as Naomi, Model 2 and 3, etc. Would be great
> to see it supported one of these days.
Any use of the GPU is likely to be in the form of HLSL/GSLS or some other GPGPU technology. While it will accelerate the rendering, it won't improve the look or allow higher resolutions.
It also won't affect the games internal frame rate.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: ]
#306567 - 03/30/13 05:58 PM
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I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you explain why this would be? Why not have those extra graphical and internal resolution options available if the gpu's are capable? Why not incorporate them into MAME, while other 3D emus such as SuperModel/Model2 emu/Dolphin, etc has them already? Just wondering.
Edited by Outrun2006 (03/30/13 05:59 PM)
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306569 - 03/30/13 06:08 PM
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> I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you explain why this would be? Why not have
> those extra graphical and internal resolution options available if the gpu's are
> capable? Why not incorporate them into MAME, while other 3D emus such as
> SuperModel/Model2 emu/Dolphin, etc has them already? Just wondering.
Because MAMEDEV doesn't want it.
Right from the main page of mamedev.org (have you even read it?)
Quote:
When used in conjunction with images of the original arcade game's ROM and disk data, MAME attempts to reproduce that game as faithfully as possible on a more modern general-purpose computer.
What you're asking about is not a faithful representation.
- Stiletto
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Stiletto]
#306573 - 03/30/13 07:30 PM
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> Because MAMEDEV doesn't want it.
..and thank God for that.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Shoegazr]
#306683 - 04/01/13 03:27 PM
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> > Because MAMEDEV doesn't want it.
>
> ..and thank God for that.
I like to think that out there somewhere, at least one Mame Dev has built his private version of MAME with full 3D hardware acceleration and is playing Ridge Racer at 1080p,60fps with full tri-linear filtering and 4 x Anti Aliasing..
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306696 - 04/01/13 08:02 PM
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> > > Because MAMEDEV doesn't want it.
> >
> > ..and thank God for that.
>
>
> I like to think that out there somewhere, at least one Mame Dev has built his private
> version of MAME with full 3D hardware acceleration and is playing Ridge Racer at
> 1080p,60fps with full tri-linear filtering and 4 x Anti Aliasing..
>>>>>>>>>>>
A pleasant thought but he knows if that if the other devs find out, they'll sentence him to death via stoning 
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306731 - 04/02/13 01:28 PM
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> I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you explain why this would be? Why not have
> those extra graphical and internal resolution options available if the gpu's are
> capable?
Putting aside for a moment that MAME is about preserving old games, including their limitations.
There is no free lunch. To enable higher resolutions it's not always just a case of changing one line of code. Pete's PSX GPU plugins (http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm) for example have to run a software emulator as well as the accelerated renderer because the game can read from the frame buffer.
> Why not incorporate them into MAME, while other 3D emus such as
> SuperModel/Model2 emu/Dolphin, etc has them already? Just wondering.
As other emulators are available, then why do we need to incorporate it into MAME?
What you're asking for is for people to dedicate more time to something they don't want, when other software already does it.
Edited by smf (04/02/13 01:30 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: ]
#306735 - 04/02/13 03:39 PM
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> There is no free lunch. To enable higher resolutions it's not always just a case of
> changing one line of code. Pete's PSX GPU plugins
> (http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm) for example have to run a software emulator as
> well as the accelerated renderer because the game can read from the frame buffer.
In fairness, technology has moved on significantly from when Pete wrote those. Nowadays you'd render to a texture the correct size of the PSX output and then use that as the source for the final output pass.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#306739 - 04/02/13 06:44 PM
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> In fairness, technology has moved on significantly from when Pete wrote those.
> Nowadays you'd render to a texture the correct size of the PSX output and then use
> that as the source for the final output pass.
You're still rendering each frame twice & you have the overhead of coding something that is accurate to the original renderer by default (dither patterns etc) and can also render in high resolution.
Edited by smf (04/02/13 06:50 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: ]
#306745 - 04/02/13 08:00 PM
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> You're still rendering each frame twice & you have the overhead of coding something
> that is accurate to the original renderer by default (dither patterns etc) and can
> also render in high resolution.
Yes, but you can render the frame twice much, much faster on the GPU. And if you want to guarantee pixel perfection, that's not a problem with GPGPU.
And you didn't put in any of that work in MAME's software renderer, as Javier Donoso likes to remind us.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#306756 - 04/03/13 01:25 AM
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> Yes, but you can render the frame twice much, much faster on the GPU. And if you want
> to guarantee pixel perfection, that's not a problem with GPGPU.
I know, but writing the GPGPU renderer so it can work at standard resolution and in combined high and standard resolution is not free.
> And you didn't put in any of that work in MAME's software renderer, as Javier Donoso
> likes to remind us.
Not yet, but I can :-) I've been hoping for someone to take on GPGPU on another system first. I'm almost tempted to make it generate code using the dynamic re-compiler.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: ]
#306764 - 04/03/13 02:42 AM
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> > I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you explain why this would be? Why not
> have
> > those extra graphical and internal resolution options available if the gpu's are
> > capable?
>
> Putting aside for a moment that MAME is about preserving old games, including their
> limitations.
>
> There is no free lunch. To enable higher resolutions it's not always just a case of
> changing one line of code. Pete's PSX GPU plugins
> (http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm) for example have to run a software emulator as
> well as the accelerated renderer because the game can read from the frame buffer.
>
> > Why not incorporate them into MAME, while other 3D emus such as
> > SuperModel/Model2 emu/Dolphin, etc has them already? Just wondering.
>
> As other emulators are available, then why do we need to incorporate it into MAME?
>
> What you're asking for is for people to dedicate more time to something they don't
> want, when other software already does it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fair enough, but I'm not sure your reply explains the whole picture. There are many other aspects of MAME that allow certain things to be done that pass or "enhances" the original games' limitation.
Why for example, can we turn on bi-linear filtering?
Why is Triple Buffering allowed?
Why is there support for screen effect png files?
Why allow us to run the games in 48000Hz sound?
Why allow cheat files to be used?
Why allow us to any controller we want to play any game?
Is Ms Pac-man really being authentically preserved when we can play it with an xbox analog stick or even a steering wheel?
How exactly would having graphical effects as an option, with the ability to simply to use them *IF* desired, be detrimental to the authenticity of the game, when all the other above mentioned things are already available in MAME?
Furthermore, if it's striving for 100% authenticity why is there still no force feedback for any of the driving games that originally supported it?
See where I'm going with this? All the other things have been implemented in MAME but the line has been drawn at hardware graphical effects support....why?
Again, I'm not criticizing the emu. I love the mame devs to death and I'm eternally grateful for what they've given us. I'm just looking for a bit of rational clarity.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306782 - 04/03/13 11:48 AM
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Quote:
I'm just looking for a bit of rational clarity.
All these questions have been asked many times before when it comes to 3D acceleration support, and the answer you'll get will either disappoint you or make no sense for the reasons given.
Personally, I'm not really interested in 'pimping out' the Ridge Racers of this world with higher resolutions, filtering, anti-aliasing etc, All I want is the extra FPS it would deliver.
I don't see anything wrong in using the GPU to deliver full speed on older PC's with slower CPU's, even if that meant running them at their original low resolutions and 'blocky' non bilinear filtered outputs etc,etc.
But then you'll get the response that using GPU's wont increase the speed, which bizarrely,must be a first, of a piece of dedicated hardware not helping increase the speed, maybe that's down to the way MAME drivers are coded.
I think the real reason above all, is simply a lack of time and motivation to undertake the somewhat onerous task of rewriting each driver for the 3d games that would qualify for GPU acceleration, either that or there are no Dev's with the requisite skills to make use of GPU's beyond the limited use they are put too at the moment, such as HLSL.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306783 - 04/03/13 12:56 PM
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> Why for example, can we turn on bi-linear filtering?
>
> Why is Triple Buffering allowed?
>
> Why is there support for screen effect png files?
>
> Why allow us to run the games in 48000Hz sound?
>
> Why allow cheat files to be used?
>
> Why allow us to any controller we want to play any game?
>
> Is Ms Pac-man really being authentically preserved when we can play it with an xbox
> analog stick or even a steering wheel?
>
> How exactly would having graphical effects as an option, with the ability to simply
> to use them *IF* desired, be detrimental to the authenticity of the game, when all
> the other above mentioned things are already available in MAME?
None of those require extra work when writing the emulation code.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306785 - 04/03/13 03:59 PM
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> Why for example, can we turn on bi-linear filtering?
Because it's free and easy. If you want to hang our integrity on it, we'll be glad to remove it and include all of your known contact information in the whatsnew in case others disagree.
> Why is Triple Buffering allowed?
This is a PC hardware implementation detail for compatibility.
> Why is there support for screen effect png files?
Because it's free and easy. Your contact information, etc, etc.
> Why allow us to run the games in 48000Hz sound?
This is a PC hardware implementation detail for compatibility. (In particular, some Creative cards slightly distort anything not played at 48 kHz). It doesn't enhance the sound quality: we always run the sound cores at their real quality and then resample as needed to fit your PC, just like we do with graphics.
> Why allow cheat files to be used?
Because the devs largely suck at playing the games, so if you want the boss of level 7 glitching out fixed in this lifetime, they have to be able to get there.
> Why allow us to any controller we want to play any game?
To facilitate the largest possible testing audience.
> Is Ms Pac-man really being authentically preserved when we can play it with an xbox
> analog stick or even a steering wheel?
Namco themselves let you play it with an analog stick in the PSN/XBLA ports, and a touchscreen on iOS/Android. So apparently they disagree with you.
> Furthermore, if it's striving for 100% authenticity why is there still no force
> feedback for any of the driving games that originally supported it?
We're eagerly awaiting your patch, if it meets our technical requirements (must work on Linux and Mac OS X, not just Windows).
> See where I'm going with this? All the other things have been implemented in MAME but
> the line has been drawn at hardware graphical effects support....why?
None of those other things actually alter the game in any significant way. Early 3D systems had just enough geometric precision to handle their low resolutions; if you scale the entire game up it introduces errors in the graphics and gameplay which didn't actually exist. Running the audio output at 48 kHz to avoid the infamous Creative Labs distortion problems does not alter anything; Street Fighter II's samples still sound like they're being played underwater.
You want rational clarity? Here's some: you want the games enhanced because your friends point and laugh at the games you download while they download the latest Forza or DiRT or NFS. You just need to drop the right hipster terms ("vintage" or "retro") and they'll be eating out of your hand.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306786 - 04/03/13 04:02 PM
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> would qualify for GPU acceleration, either that or there are no Dev's with the
> requisite skills to make use of GPU's beyond the limited use they are put too at the
> moment, such as HLSL.
This is an adorable bit of trolling. HLSL does a full mathematical simulation (when you enable YIQ mode) of all of the electronics and electromagnetics of a CRT monitor. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's "limited use". There's a reason it eats GPUs for breakfast.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#306792 - 04/03/13 05:38 PM
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> Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's "limited use". There's a
> reason it eats GPUs for breakfast.
It's still a limited use in the sense they're not being used to render 3D geometry..you know, the thing they were primarily invented for.
You really need to grow a thicker skin, because all this faux outrage when even the slightest bit of criticism comes the way of 'some' Mame dev's is really tiresome.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306794 - 04/03/13 07:20 PM
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> You really need to grow a thicker skin, because all this faux outrage when even the
> slightest bit of criticism comes the way of 'some' Mame dev's is really tiresome.
http://youtu.be/WJbv8HNZK4E
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: B2K24]
#306795 - 04/03/13 07:32 PM
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306796 - 04/03/13 07:50 PM
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> It's still a limited use in the sense they're not being used to render 3D
> geometry..you know, the thing they were primarily invented for.
Welcome to 2013, where Nvidia sells more GPUs for general-purpose computing than for graphics (we're talking cards with no video outputs), and AMD is trying to catch up. The last 2 generations of NV GPUs were designed for compute first and gaming second (and AMD's next-gen chips will be as well), so in fact everything you do on your PC is currently not "the thing they were primarily invented for".
We hope to change that in the future in MAME ;-)
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#306797 - 04/03/13 08:01 PM
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Quote:
> Welcome to 2013, where Nvidia sells more GPUs for general-purpose computing than for
> graphics (we're talking cards with no video outputs), and AMD is trying to catch up.
> The last 2 generations of NV GPUs were designed for compute first and gaming second
> (and AMD's next-gen chips will be as well), so in fact everything you do on your PC
> is currently not "the thing they were primarily invented for".
Lol, it's amazing the lengths some people will go to, and construct bogus arguments with apples to oranges comparisons, all because they're too arrogant to ever admit they got something wrong, however innocuous.
To try and claim companies like Nvidia and AMD didn't release 3d cards on the PC for primarily gaming resons, is just a breathtaking rewriting of history.
Whether that's their primary purpose today is irrelevant, as the use they're being put to, that you describe, came later, much later.
3d gaming was the reason these companies released GPU's in the first place.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306798 - 04/03/13 08:09 PM
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> You really need to grow a thicker skin, because all this faux outrage when even the
> slightest bit of criticism comes the way of 'some' Mame dev's is really tiresome.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't pay Arbee no mind, he's our resident bitter old fart but we love him all the same
 
Thanks for reply arbee, point taken and was just looking for some developer input on the subject.
By the way, anyone who downloads Need For Speed isn't a friend of mine
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#306804 - 04/03/13 10:31 PM
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> By the way, anyone who downloads Need For Speed isn't a friend of mine
As a big Criterion fanboy I appreciate that they used the NFS name to sneak a sequel to Burnout Paradise past the EA beancounters ;-)
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#306805 - 04/03/13 10:36 PM
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> > By the way, anyone who downloads Need For Speed isn't a friend of mine
>
> As a big Criterion fanboy I appreciate that they used the NFS name to sneak a sequel
> to Burnout Paradise past the EA beancounters ;-)
Yeah Most Wanted is basically Paradise on steroids  Too bad Surf Island never came to the PC 
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#306807 - 04/03/13 11:02 PM
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> To try and claim companies like Nvidia and AMD didn't release 3d cards on the PC for
> primarily gaming resons, is just a breathtaking rewriting of history.
>
> Whether that's their primary purpose today is irrelevant, as the use they're being
> put to, that you describe, came later, much later.
I'm not rewriting history. You said that HLSL was not performing the primary purpose of GPUs, which you believe is drawing polygons. I pointed out that drawing polygons is no longer the primary purpose of GPUs, and is not even their primary design intent now. (This is even true in gaming, by the way: modern PC games can and do run physics, collision detection, AI, and data decompression on the GPU). GPUs have evolved in the direction of becoming massively-parallel general purpose CPUs that have hardware texture lookup acceleration. This all makes them far more amenable to how MAME likes to work.
Incidentally, HLSL is currently run as a series of vertex and fragment shader passes applied to GPU-drawn polygons. The game screen, overlays and underlays (including the phosphor overlays), and on-screen UI are all polygons drawn by the GPU. So even if we accept your definition of what GPUs are for, HLSL is still doing things "the right way".
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#307213 - 04/13/13 12:53 AM
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> Hahahahahahahahaha.
>
> 1) Haswell will not rival the GTX680. Maybe the GT430 or so. It's a major step up for
> Intel, sure, but it's not going to make the discrete guys sweat. Broadwell *may*
> break into at least the low end of enthusiast-class GPUs, but that's a year+ off yet.
> Also, Intel's drivers historically kind of suck.
>
Well, now Anandtech is claiming it should be competitive with the Nvidia 650M, at least with the GT3e graphics anyway.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Spekkio]
#307253 - 04/13/13 10:12 PM
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> Well, now Anandtech is claiming it should be competitive with the Nvidia 650M, at
> least with the GT3e graphics anyway.
I love Anand for a lot of things, but for graphics card reviews they use a worthless methodology. Don't believe the hype.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Reznor007]
#308712 - 05/15/13 04:48 PM
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> How do I know for sure? Well have you heard of Intel developing a new graphics api
> for Haswell? I haven't, but maybe I missed it. But what kind of dev would support
> something new and exclusive to it rather than direct3d/opengl that everything else
> has supported for years.
The private API interacts with and extends D3D, like NVAPI and ATI's Eyefinity API have for years. It's sort of like GL vendor extensions except there's no standardized framework.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#308716 - 05/15/13 05:45 PM
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In that case I don't see it gaining traction outside of maybe a small niche here and there.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#308727 - 05/15/13 10:21 PM
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> > Well, now Anandtech is claiming it should be competitive with the Nvidia 650M, at
> > least with the GT3e graphics anyway.
>
> I love Anand for a lot of things, but for graphics card reviews they use a worthless
> methodology. Don't believe the hype.
Well, apparently, it seems they got this from Intel. Looks like the 650M is Intel's target competition.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Spekkio]
#313077 - 08/18/13 03:45 PM
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Welp...Looks like Haswell came out the door swinging at first but its star has now faded and fizzed away. Overclocking seems to be severely limited and temps tends to get very hot. :\
How do you guys anticipate Ivy-E will fair against it when it comes out next month?
5Ghz OC possible?
Do you expect it to deliver significant speed gains in MAME? Hikaru/Chihiro/Model 3 all @ 60fps?
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| Dullaron |
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Mitchell or Dunard Garaus
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Agreed. Those of you want 3D or better then make MAME 2 and stop all this.
[Re: B2K24]
#313083 - 08/19/13 01:07 AM
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I want this and that. 
By the way. Nvidia can handle HLSL just fine. Just have to mess with the settings. Nothing wrong with it unless you have a outdated one that is under 3.0 or having a big issues.
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| Dullaron |
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Mitchell or Dunard Garaus
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Master O]
#313084 - 08/19/13 01:15 AM
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> > "Well, let's hope full HW acceleration comes to mame someday."
> >
> >
> > Yeah...riiiiiight.
> >
> > Oh look there's a pig flying overhead.
>
> Actually, Mame emulated pigs flying already:
>
> http://youtu.be/S8Z4lOexiPk?t=19s
This video is private. lol
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: Outrun2006]
#313114 - 08/19/13 05:48 PM
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> Welp...Looks like Haswell came out the door swinging at first but its star has now
> faded and fizzed away. Overclocking seems to be severely limited and temps tends to
> get very hot. :\
Yes and no - it's still a good CPU for a large majority of users, including MAME users. It just didn't turn out to OC as well as was hoped.
> How do you guys anticipate Ivy-E will fair against it when it comes out next month?
I haven't seen or heard anything, which is a bit unusual for a major new Intel part. We'll find out when it ships I guess.
> Do you expect it to deliver significant speed gains in MAME? Hikaru/Chihiro/Model 3
> all @ 60fps?
Definitely not.
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Re: Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313115 - 08/19/13 06:12 PM
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Thanks rb. I was sorta being sarcastic with the Hikaru/Chihiro/Model 3 question LOL.
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Index 
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Haswell = A new dawn for mame?
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[Re: 
Too bad Surf Island never came to the PC 
