uKER |
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Hi. I usually play Mortal Kombat 1 and I thought I'd point out that the game's DAC volume is set way too high by default.
With the default levels, there's a boomy drum sound that overwhelms everything else, and it appears both in the music, and throughout the game over various sound effects.
For reference, I'm attaching three 320 kbps MP3 files: 1. A rip of the CD audio track of the "player select" song from the SegaCD version of the game, which includes the arcade's music in CD audio format. 2. A dump of the same music sequence with MAME's default output levels. 3. A dump of the same sequence with the DAC volume set to 0.10 (default is 0.50).
I normalized the SegaCD rip's volume to -11 db in order for its volume to somewhat match the MAME files, and make the comparison easier.
Hope this helps make MAME better in portraying MK1 the way it deserves.
Thank you people for some incredible work on MAME. Keep it up!
Edited by uKER (11/25/12 08:44 PM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299823 - 11/25/12 09:06 PM
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I believe the devs would prefer an audio recording straight from the machine rather than the Sega CD audio track.
It was not uncommon to "enhance" the audio recordings on the CD tracks to make them sound cleaner.
Edited by Sacrilego (11/25/12 09:10 PM)
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uKER |
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Unfortunately I don't own a MK arcade machine, but it's not that I'm reporting this just because the SegaCD track sounds different. On the contrary, I've always known MAME wasn't right and I just got the SegaCD disc to use it as a reference when I thought of making this report, and trust me, the track in the SegaCD disc is the way the arcade is meant to sound.
For additional reference, here's the same music from Mortal Kombat Kollection, allegedly the closest to an arcade-perfect home release MK1 has ever had. Granted, some SFX have been replaced in the game, but that's the way the music is supposed to sound.
Changing that parameter in MAME can't be more than two keystrokes, and it's a shame that the game will go into history sounding the way it does in MAME. It's not like it's a subtle inaccuracy I'm reporting. That overwhelming drum sound destroys the game's audio if you don't alter the default setting.
Edited by uKER (11/25/12 10:37 PM)
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299845 - 11/26/12 01:27 AM
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Lots of people have these machines so I'm sure a proper reference recording will show up soon enough.
But yes, console ports and OSTs are not generally allowable reference.
(Also, people play MK with the sound on? Everyone I know mutes MAME and plays MP3s, because the game has pretty terrible sound, even in the cabinet).
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: R. Belmont]
#299849 - 11/26/12 01:49 AM
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LOL. I LOVE MK1's music. And even if I didn't, I love the game and if I can help MAME offer a proper rendition of it, I will help in whichever way I can.
If the devs really won't take these files as reference, I really hope you're right and someone turns up with recordings from the actual machine.
If anyone sees this and know someone that can possibly help, I'll really appreciate it if you told them to do so.
As I said, it's really sad that MAME doesn't do justice to this great game.
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redk9258 |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299851 - 11/26/12 02:05 AM
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You could always make changes to the MAME source and compile your own build.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: R. Belmont]
#299881 - 11/26/12 12:45 PM
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> (Also, people play MK with the sound on? Everyone I know mutes MAME and plays MP3s, > because the game has pretty terrible sound, even in the cabinet).
I quite like the music but it's drowned out by all the crazy shouting and screaming. All you can hear in the cabinet is the bass. MK2 was more balanced in this respect.
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Phil Bennett]
#299884 - 11/26/12 01:37 PM
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Are you talking about the actual arcade or MAME? If you're talking about a MAME cabinet, try the DAC at 0.10 and the OKI6295 at 0.30. I think that's as close to the arcade as it gets.
Edited by uKER (11/26/12 01:46 PM)
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: redk9258]
#299885 - 11/26/12 01:42 PM
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The change I'm asking is not mainly for myself. I manually adjusted those volumes to match the arcade. No problems there.
Problem is, MAME doesn't offer a proper rendition of the game, and that's the way everyone is experiencing the game.
One of MAME's goals is to keep old games from falling into oblivion and it's a shame that MK will be remembered as having that horrible bass drum all over it and people muting its sound to play.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299887 - 11/26/12 02:51 PM
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I don't mind tweaking the volume balance when it's very obvious it's currently wrong. But we'd still need to document that it should be tested against a mk cab.
Tell you what: if you care enough about this issue, post it to MameTesters. Then, I'll make sure it gets improved. =)
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Phil Bennett]
#299888 - 11/26/12 03:01 PM
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> > (Also, people play MK with the sound on? Everyone I know mutes MAME and plays MP3s, > > because the game has pretty terrible sound, even in the cabinet). > > I quite like the music but it's drowned out by all the crazy shouting and screaming. > All you can hear in the cabinet is the bass. MK2 was more balanced in this respect.
Yeah, the later DCS-audio versions were definitely better balanced.
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: hap]
#299889 - 11/26/12 03:04 PM
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> I don't mind tweaking the volume balance when it's very obvious it's currently wrong. > But we'd still need to document that it should be tested against a mk cab.
The problem is it's *not* very obvious it's currently wrong. It's been at current settings for in excess of 5 years, it's one of the top 10 games people play in MAME, and nobody's noticed a problem until now.
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: hap]
#299893 - 11/26/12 04:15 PM
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I sure care about it. Now, MAMETesters is where I began. I followed the link on the main page that says "For MAME Bugs, use MAMEWORLD's EmuChat Forum" and I ended up posting here. Can you give me a link for the right place to post it?
Thanks a lot!
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299894 - 11/26/12 04:30 PM
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> I sure care about it. > Now, MAMETesters is where I began. > I followed the link on the main page that says "For MAME Bugs, use MAMEWORLD's > EmuChat Forum" and I ended up posting here. > Can you give me a link for the right place to post it? > > Thanks a lot!
The trouble is you need conclusive evidence of correct behaviour, i.e. a recording of the final mixdown off a PCB or something. Until you actually have that, there's nothing to post.
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#299902 - 11/26/12 05:42 PM
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> I sure care about it. > Now, MAMETesters is where I began. > I followed the link on the main page that says "For MAME Bugs, use MAMEWORLD's > EmuChat Forum" and I ended up posting here.
Those instructions aren't the clearest wording. The intent is that while you are in your 24 hour waiting period for a new account, you may choose to discuss the bugs at the MAME or MESS forums. Not that you are required to
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: R. Belmont]
#299933 - 11/28/12 03:22 PM
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I have to admit, I've always suspected there was something off about the sound in MK1 in MAME, I just couldn't put my finger on it until now.
I have a bootleg MK1 but then I don't think that'll be acceptable as a reference. The sound hardware is the same on this one but who knows if the cap, resistor values etc are. They used bootleg Yamaha and Oki chips on these too so it could sound quite different.
Is it just MK1? Surely this means all Y-Unit games sound wrong? Meaning any one of them should be an acceptable source.
Edited by RetroRepair (11/28/12 03:23 PM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: R. Belmont]
#366027 - 05/15/17 03:05 AM
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> The problem is it's *not* very obvious it's currently wrong. It's been at current > settings for in excess of 5 years, it's one of the top 10 games people play in MAME, > and nobody's noticed a problem until now.
Damn, I had to register and ressurrect this old ass thread just to say how wrong you are.
I grew up playing MK1 in the arcades and the music is printed onto my memory, because I just LOVED it. When I tried in MAME a few days ago, I couldn't believe how wrong it was sounding. Only loud boomy drums, very faint synth, not right at all.
This is actually very easy to verify in the newer arcade collections. The sound is enhanced, but balance of instruments and sound effects is very close to the original and wildly different from MAME.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to an arcade machine anymore, but comparing to the current-gen ports, setting both ym2151 channels to 2.00, dac to 0.26 and oki to 0.37 brings it very close and definitely faithful to my memories.
This problem seems to be specific to MK1. At least, I checked MK2 and it doesn't have individual sliders for each sound board channel, so there's no way of messing the levels like this.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366028 - 05/15/17 03:10 AM
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While I'm sure we're all happy that you felt compelled to resurrect a thread that's 5 years old to tell us you remember the sounds differently, but the "enhanced" arcades play them pretty similar to how you remember it, that really helps no one at all.
I played the game quite a lot when it came out & it sounds right to me in MAME. So, unless you can prove otherwise it's not useful to any of the devs
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Envisaged0ne]
#366029 - 05/15/17 03:30 AM
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Here you have it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf52wiuInzw
Full arcade playthrough. Sound starts at 1:11
I don't know if it helps, it's just a camera recording afterall, but it's very clear how this doesn't sound like the defaults we have on MAME. Bass and synths are clearly audible, drums are not remotely nearly as loud.
Why this is? No idea. Maybe the arcades passed through some kind of standard sound level tweaking before being sent to the buyers, who knows? All machines I heard in my life sounded like the one in this video. I'd guess it's not MAME's fault, though. Sound channel levels are configurable in MK1 and MAME defaults them at... default. But it's not how it sounded in the arcades, I tell you.
Edit: (I love Google) Full arcade soundtrack in MP3. Compare The Courtyard's and Goro's Lair's songs with those in the test switch's sound board test. This is what I'm talking about.
https://downloads.khinsider.com/game-soundtracks/album/mortal-kombat-arcade-1992-
Edited by Gonira (05/15/17 04:09 AM)
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R. Belmont |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366050 - 05/15/17 05:53 PM
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Microphone videos and OSTs aren't helpful. We need actual direct-connect output from the board in order to analyse things and set them properly.
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: R. Belmont]
#366065 - 05/16/17 12:44 AM
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I don't think it's easy for an average Joe to even find a MK1 machine nowadays. Let alone get access to the internals of the machine to get a proper audio dump. Supposedly being on the team that developed the thing, don't you have much easier access to one?
I'm under the impression that the sound levels in MAME are based off a bootleg version that sounds wildly different to the actual game.
Edited by uKER (05/16/17 12:45 AM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#366066 - 05/16/17 01:08 AM
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> I don't think it's easy for an average Joe to even find a MK1 machine nowadays.
You don't need a cab.
> Let > alone get access to the internals of the machine to get a proper audio dump.
That's 100% incorrect. All the parts are readily available on ebay. I can link to them all if you want.
> Supposedly being on the team that developed the thing, don't you have much easier > access to one?
No.
> I'm under the impression that the sound levels in MAME are based off a bootleg > version that sounds wildly different to the actual game.
Nope.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Smitdogg]
#366082 - 05/16/17 06:38 PM
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Wouldn't it be better, if possible, to tweak the default levels in the sound chips "by ear", using our suggestions and the OST as some sort of guideline, instead of just keeping levels that we proved to be wrong?
It wouldn't be objective or completely accurate emulation, but it would definitely be more faithful to the original than the current state.
This isn't even a request, just a suggestion. I'm in the same boat as uKER, as I already found a solution for myself, but it bugs me to know that people are experiencing the game with its awesome music destroyed like this.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366083 - 05/16/17 07:11 PM
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More faithful to who? Someone who hasn't heard the Arcade version in ages? Someone living in Latin-America who probably remembers bootlegs than originals and can't differ between them? Someone pointing to OST and port versions that are sold, normalized and volume fixed after the game release? If things would get fixed like that, for every "fix" in MAME there would be a lot of "broken" ones.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: BIOS-D]
#366084 - 05/16/17 07:45 PM
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Wow! What my location has to do with anything? Why do you attack me just because of a suggestion?
There's lots of evidence in this thread already. There's a thing called Internet, you know, where you can see actual footage of actual arcade machines running. I even posted one of these videos in this thread. There's obvious loss in sound quality, but it's enough to perceive that it just doesn't sound the same, I'm not using my memory only as a baseline for anything.
If some of you guys refuse to acknowledge that MK sound is not right, so be it. I was only trying to help. Signing out.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366086 - 05/16/17 07:58 PM
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There's more to it than that. For example if they used a specific speaker type in the cab that somehow makes the changes you perceive, the speaker doesn't get emulated in mame (last I checked anyway). But stuff can't be done by ear or what sounds best to someone, imagine doing that with graphics, someone making the driver thinks purple looks better than blue, it's not the right way to do things.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Smitdogg]
#366090 - 05/16/17 08:09 PM
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> There's more to it than that. For example if they used a specific speaker type in the > cab that somehow makes the changes you perceive, the speaker doesn't get emulated in > mame (last I checked anyway). But stuff can't be done by ear or what sounds best to > someone, imagine doing that with graphics, someone making the driver thinks purple > looks better than blue, it's not the right way to do things.
There's no speaker in the world that could change the source in the way it's changed in this specific case, but I totally understand your point about wanting to keep it objective. I hope someone with a PCB shows up eventually to feed the devs with accurate data. Thanks for your attention.
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uKER |
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#366094 - 05/16/17 09:15 PM
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I completely understand your point. However, since we currently don't have a digital source as a reference, can't we at least exercise a bit of common sense and do the best with what we have?
We don't have a machine handy, so nobody can attest to MAME's current accuracy, and there's two of us that noticed and cared enough to come here and report it.
So let's say I could cite, say four or five OFFICIAL CD audio sources with MK1's music that sounded just like each other (which BTW, also matches the music in the recent MK Arcade Collection), and I could provide a combination of MAME volumes that made it match those sources, wouldn't it lend some credibility to my affirmation that that's the way it's supposed to sound and there's something not quite right with MAME's levels?
I mean, we're not talking about some audiophile level "I think this minute detail is somewhat different" thing. It's more like "why are all these loud banging sounds all over the place?".
Furthermore, changing those levels will affect other common sounds, like uppercuts, the fatality sound, and even the title screen fanfare, so those could also serve as reference to compare to other official sources (official videos, trailers, the Arcade Collection or whatever).
Edited by uKER (05/16/17 09:17 PM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366095 - 05/16/17 09:18 PM
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> Wow! What my location has to do with anything? Why do you attack me just because of a > suggestion? >
Attacking? No, I'm merely pointing things out. Since when explaining the reasons things can't be your way via "suggestions" is attacking? In any case the one being rude after being told NO a lot is you.
Location has a meaning. Where I live it was fairly common to find bootlegs and not knowing about them. Given the situation with Latin-America back then, that is not a surprise.
That would be like me complaining Street Fighter II can't change characters by pressing start during battles in MAME.
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The full story
[Re: uKER]
#366098 - 05/16/17 09:40 PM
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> I completely understand your point. > However, since we currently don't have a digital source as a reference, can't we at > least exercise a bit of common sense and do the best with what we have? > > We don't have a machine handy, so nobody can attest to MAME's current accuracy, and > there's two of us that noticed and cared enough to come here and report it. > > So let's say I could cite, say four or five OFFICIAL CD audio sources with MK1's > music that sounded just like each other (which BTW, also matches the music in the > recent MK Arcade Collection), and I could provide a combination of MAME volumes that > made it match those sources, wouldn't it lend some credibility to my affirmation that > that's the way it's supposed to sound and there's something not quite right with > MAME's levels? > > I mean, we're not talking about some audiophile level "I think this minute detail is > somewhat different" thing. It's more like "why are all these loud banging sounds all > over the place?". > > Furthermore, changing those levels will affect other common sounds, like uppercuts, > the fatality sound, and even the title screen fanfare, so those could also serve as > reference to compare to other official sources (official videos, trailers, the Arcade > Collection or whatever).
I understand where you're coming from, and it's definitely an argument that seems perfectly reasonable on its face: An OST is purported to be an "Original Sound Track", that's the whole origin of its acronym. But there's a lot more nuance than that.
While the other team members have been perhaps a bit forward in their shooting down of your suggestion, let me provide a concrete example: Taito's "Zuntata" sound group, who composed the vast majority of the music for the entire company's 90's lineup, have often released so-called "OSTs" that have been tweaked to have a more listenable mix, so to speak. It's only when guaranteed, verifiable physical recordings, taken off the actual hardware, came up that the team was able to get a realistic perspective on how the games actually sounded.
This has nothing to do with the team being obstinate, or not wanting MAME to become objectively better. It's just that it's been shown, time and time again, that the publishers and game studios themselves are not objective in their releases of soundtracks. To an extent, it makes perfect sense, since they would want to release something that sounds good when it's put into a CD player.
By contrast, the heavy emphasis on sampled sounds is a hallmark of arcades from that era. I don't at all mean to imply that you yourself weren't there back in the day, but at the time, it was the sound effects that drew people towards arcade cabinets - not the music - and so games would be released with that particular auditory skew well in mind.
Meanwhile, there have been several cases - though the specific examples escape me - where the sound levels have been modified in bootlegs. And it's worth keeping in mind that bootlegs were pretty insidious when it came to being put out on location, back in the day: There weren't a lot of arcade operators who were 100% on the up-and-up, and you were just as likely as not to encounter a bootleg machine masquerading as the real thing when it came to going to an arcade.
So, we circle back to the initial MAMEdev argument that memories are fallible, OSTs are not guaranteed to be representative of the audio output of an actual board, and bootlegs were far more common than people realize. When keeping all of this in mind, I hope you can understand the team's reticence to accept OST CDs - even multiple OST CDs - as an accurate representation of how the machines sounded, and that the team would strongly prefer to have a recording off an authentic machine, sampled directly off the audio-out: Anything else might be accurate, but it's just as likely not to be. And there's no point in faffing with the driver if there stands a decent chance that it will be no more accurate at the end of it all than it was before.
EDIT: Just to speak on the topic of the MK Arcade Collection, since I feel that you're owed a worthwhile answer on that topic: The vast majority of commercial emulation packages, of which MK Arcade Collection is most likely representative, are based largely on observations gleaned from existing emulators, not so much from actual hardware. There's no end of examples of "retro" packs which were objectively inaccurate compared to the source material, partly due to the compilation teams assuming emulators were already 100% correct, and that they wouldn't have to actually check anything on hardware. I've worked in the video game industry as a programmer for the better part of the past 12 years, and I can tell you in full candor that most companies have absolutely awful archival practices. When it comes time for a company to release a retro game pack, their data is only only still around in the first place for them to re-release it due to MAME ostensibly incentivising the massive redundant backing-up of these companies' games. I strongly suspect that this is, at least partly, why MAME has not been absolutely slammed with takedown requests, despite the team's open policy of removing support for any game which a licensed rights-holder asks us to.
Edited by MooglyGuy (05/16/17 09:52 PM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Gonira]
#366099 - 05/16/17 09:53 PM
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> > There's more to it than that. For example if they used a specific speaker type in > the > > cab that somehow makes the changes you perceive, the speaker doesn't get emulated > in > > mame (last I checked anyway). But stuff can't be done by ear or what sounds best to > > someone, imagine doing that with graphics, someone making the driver thinks purple > > looks better than blue, it's not the right way to do things. > > There's no speaker in the world that could change the source in the way it's changed > in this specific case, but I totally understand your point about wanting to keep it > objective. I hope someone with a PCB shows up eventually to feed the devs with > accurate data. Thanks for your attention.
This is only a suggestion, but you can start MAME with the -cheat trigger (cheats) enabled to add volume level adjusters to the Slider Controls menu for YM, DAC, OKI sounds. This will allow you to tune the game as you see fit to your ears. Perhaps with adjusted volume levels+settings with real numbers there may be something a dev can do about changing the source to better fit your assertions. At the very least, it gets fixed on your end.
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Re: The full story
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#366100 - 05/16/17 11:09 PM
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I'm sure companies have used MAME when they released there arcade collections. For example, there was a arcade compilation released with the MK games. I think it was for the PS2, but I'll have to double check. Anyway, at the time, MAME's emulation of the MK games wasn't perfect, and the characters shadows were either absent, or just would flicker in and out depending what screen you were on. There were other small bugs in the emulation as well. Sure enough, those exact same bugs were in the compilation that was officially released by Midway. I couldn't believe that they basically just stole MAME's source & used it for there own compilation, then sold it to the masses
Edited by Envisaged0ne (05/16/17 11:10 PM)
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Windows 11 64 bit OS
Intel Core i7-10700
Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 6GB
32GB DDR4 RAM
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Tafoid]
#366101 - 05/17/17 12:36 AM
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> This is only a suggestion, but you can start MAME with the -cheat trigger (cheats) > enabled to add volume level adjusters to the Slider Controls menu for YM, DAC, OKI > sounds. This will allow you to tune the game as you see fit to your ears. Perhaps > with adjusted volume levels+settings with real numbers there may be something a dev > can do about changing the source to better fit your assertions. At the very least, it > gets fixed on your end.
I did this already, the settings I'm using are in my first post. I didn't actually ressurrect the thread to seek help for myself, but to share awareness about this issue with the community (99% probably don't even notice and just assume it's really supposed to sound that bad).
Thanks for the tip anyway, it's a confirmed working solution.
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uKER |
MAME Fan
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Reged: 06/25/07
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Posts: 25
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Loc: Montevideo, Uruguay
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Tafoid]
#366102 - 05/17/17 01:12 AM
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@MooglyGuy really appreciate the tone of your reply. While frustrating, I kinda have to understand your position of not wanting to make a permanent change in your software based on the opinion of a Mr. Nobody on the 'net.
I've just contacted someone on YouTube that can hopefully aid in getting our hands on an actual rip from the machine's hardware. Let's see how that goes.
Edited by uKER (05/17/17 01:12 AM)
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uKER |
MAME Fan
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Reged: 06/25/07
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Posts: 25
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Loc: Montevideo, Uruguay
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#393865 - 04/25/22 05:24 AM
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Well, while I could not make any progress with this, it was the utmost pleasure to try MAME 5 years later and see that the whole MK1 volumes have been reworked and that booming drum is no longer there. I would have died a bitter man if MK's music had been left the way it was for people to remember.
Edited by uKER (04/25/22 05:25 AM)
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#398501 - 05/20/24 10:20 PM
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I know this was awhile ago but did it get sorted? the drum sound over the music is very annoying. It is present in Arcade 1up's machines and on my version of the game.
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uKER |
MAME Fan
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Reged: 06/25/07
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Posts: 25
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Loc: Montevideo, Uruguay
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Stuxda]
#398502 - 05/20/24 10:55 PM
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Yeah, fortunately it sounds correctly in the latest versions of MAME.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: uKER]
#398510 - 05/21/24 04:49 PM
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Im using batocera version 39 and Mortal Kombat Rev 5.0 T-unit 03/19/93. I tried the same rom on mame on windows and the drum sound isnt there, its closer to the arcade sound.
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Re: DAC volume way too high in Mortal Kombat 1
[Re: Stuxda]
#398511 - 05/21/24 05:17 PM
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Sorted it, a different emulator on batocera solved.
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