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DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
#298724 - 11/10/12 07:09 PM
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Andrew Welburn dumped Haunted Castle Revision E. I dumped the eeprom out of Dodge City which should be its protection code. Bonky dumped an alternate Street Fighter II YYC hack. ShouTime loaned us GUN SURVIVOR 2 BIOHAZARD CODE: Veronica, BHF2 Ver E. I'm in the middle of a few deals but the box from Japan is still going to be a ways off because I am adding more games to it.
It's time I mention something about the big picture. Over the past couple of years and especially really recently, the number of "dump and emulate" games has dwindled down to jack squat, even for clones. The vast majority of what is left undumped and showing up for sale are PC based games because that is what makes up most of the past 10 or so years of arcade game hardware. So a lot of the donation money is going to start going toward PC based games that probably won't run in mame for a long time unless there is some new change where devs will use a PC's CPU and RAM on them directly, working like some sort of loader. Or it could be that mame skeleton drivers a ton of PC based games and someone else comes along with a massive loader program to run them for now.
I have pushed for easily emulatable stuff for as long as I could but we've gotten almost all of it all now other than what collectors are hoarding or what is out of the sane price range (thousands). You can go through PCB shop's entire stock lists and auction sites and most of the time there is nothing undumped other than PC based games. There are a ton of games from the past ~10 years that were PC based and they will disappear if we don't get them, a lot of them are old as dirt in arcade years. On the upside, we can often get them cheaply by just buying discs or discs and dongle or a hard drive and dongle, with only one motherboard needed to dump bioses from. But anyway, I will still give easily emulated stuff priority when possible, but they are quickly becoming impossible to find and a lot of the PC based games are starting to get torn down and parted out, and that is when we strike.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298726 - 11/10/12 08:52 PM
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Will there still be releases for the Arcade based MAME till all those that can be run in MAME are completed?
Yeah it does suck. I could remember going to the Arcades when I was younger and saw all the Games. Now, they dont release jack anymore. Anything that comes out now, is either for PC, PS3, 360 or Wii/Wii U. Think the Developers are getting greedy. But then that is when they notice all the Hackers coming in and making Cracks/Keys/Patches for the games so people can just download the ISO of whatever game it is.
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HP HPE h8-1360t
GeForce GTX 670 2GB
32GB RAM
i7-3770k 3.50GHz
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298727 - 11/10/12 08:59 PM
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Bravo. 2012 has been a great year for Mame in large part because of you guys.
What is the current situation with decapping roms? There was some excitement about that a while ago (and some emulation victories as a result) but that activity seems to have fallen off the radar.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smoker1]
#298728 - 11/10/12 09:06 PM
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I don't understand your question.
Arcade games have been strong (aside from the boring fact that they run on a PC) forever in Japan. I just never see anything exported anymore. Just look over System 16, endless interesting games that you'll never see in person.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: mamegod]
#298729 - 11/10/12 09:11 PM
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Dr. Decap quit sending us updates. Every time it seems he will start again, he doesn't. Guru says he knows someone in Japan that can do them now for...I think 300 per chip, maybe 200. I don't know. But we would need to get the chips back from the doc before pursuing that. Also a lot of the excitement was that it was seen as a magic bullet and the reality turned out to be pretty hit and miss. That's about it. With the backlog and chip stack we already have, a lot of which I'm invested in, I don't want to buy anything else for decapping until they are done. So it's sort of at a standstill. I've tried to get the ball rolling again with it several times.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smoker1]
#298730 - 11/10/12 09:22 PM
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--
"The vast majority of what is left undumped and showing up for sale are PC based games because that is what makes up most of the past 10 or so years of arcade game hardware. So a lot of the donation money is going to start going toward PC based games that probably won't run in mame for a long time"
--
>Will there still be releases for the Arcade based MAME till all those that can be run in
>MAME are completed?
What Smit means is the recent hardware in arcades these days that uses a PC based hardware instead of earlier generation arcade games that used only pcbs.
All this will still be in MAME and MAME will still continue, but more focus will be towards finding games that are PC based type hardware since some of the earlier released PC based games and the hardware that runs the various games is starting to be scarce.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298732 - 11/10/12 09:51 PM
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>especially really recently, the number of "dump and emulate" games has dwindled down to
>jack squat, even for clones.
There has to be a Sega/Gremlin Car Hunt pcb surfacing one of these days. imo there's still a fair amount left, but they are getting harder to find as stated many times in the past.
>vast majority of what is left undumped and showing up for sale are PC based games
>because that is what makes up most of the past 10 or so years of arcade game hardware.
>So a lot of the donation money is going to start going toward PC based games that
>probably won't run in mame for a long time
Good luck in this area. MESS has made very good progress this year on some of the PC based hardware. I believe if not this year, then next year some of the very early generation PC based hardware games might be emulated, but running slow....just like pong in MAME.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298733 - 11/10/12 10:11 PM
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There are tons of undumped rom based games from Korea, and many from China. I imagine that most shouldn't be too hard to find within their own countries. At least I hope they can be found eventually.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Diet Go Go Fan]
#298734 - 11/10/12 10:12 PM
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If you find one let me know...
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298738 - 11/10/12 10:58 PM
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IMHO it's a waste of time to put these games in mame because mame isn't well suited for them at least not yet it isn't. Emulation isn't necessary, they are typically xp compatable programs, they just require a loader to bypass either a hardware or software form of protection. Now 10 years from now, when we have pcs powerful enough to run a dos-box-like xp emulator, it would make sense to do a dedicated arcade variant.
You are absolutely correct in the fact that they need to be preserved though, so they should be bought up while they are available.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: HowardC]
#298739 - 11/10/12 11:03 PM
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The best only way to preserve them is get them in a mame skeleton driver.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: gregf]
#298741 - 11/10/12 11:09 PM
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> > especially really recently, the number of "dump and emulate" games has dwindled down
> to
> > jack squat, even for clones.
>
> There has to be a Sega/Gremlin Car Hunt pcb surfacing one of these days. imo there's
> still a fair amount left, but they are getting harder to find as stated many times in
> the past.
DICE has me really excited. I know he doesn't have a whole lot of time to work on it, so releases are sporadic, and the games that he is simulating take a ton of work. An interesting concept to ponder is a multi-game, multi-developer simulator like MAME for these games, but that concept has its own issues and mountains to climb (i.e. developer interest, etc). Still... something to ponder...
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298744 - 11/10/12 11:41 PM
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>
I just never see anything exported anymore. Just look over System
> 16, endless interesting games that you'll never see in person.
Do you think that's because they are trying to prevent "Gaijin" like us from getting those games, dumping them, then preserving them in MAME?
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"Note to Noobs:
We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Master O]
#298746 - 11/10/12 11:42 PM
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| TrevEB |
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Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298748 - 11/11/12 12:32 AM
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Thanks Smit for starting the conversation that needed to be started.
It's a shame we can't all meet at a giant table with. Hoards of food to discuss cheer and growl over things done and left undone.
Well the forum will do.
Are there titles that were released in the USA that are missing that shouldn't be? That of course excludes prototypes. Maybe site tested games that would bring fond memories for some. Clones that had gameplay so unique that they stood out?
Laserdisc titles. Everything is dumped, every disc is backed up. Nothing added to Mame in years.
Aside from that, I could only ask for more effort at sound, or at least add sample support. Along with the games, we don't want to lose how they sounded either. Then continued work on rebuilding the Black & White classics.
It would be cool to see mame pick up the very few pinball titles that include video. The pinball 2000 system would be an impressive piece to hack.
PC titles. Gotta preserve those hard drives. Need me some Savage Quest
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: TrevEB]
#298749 - 11/11/12 12:41 AM
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There are tons of non-PC based games left but most are in collections not being sold. They aren't showing up for sale and PC based games are starting to flood. We will probably get just a few per year from here out, plus clones.
The laserdiscs seem to be stuck because there is a belief that we can achieve perfect instead of just really good. But then again they were stuck before that idea was born.
I'm not interested in pinball simulation but I did enjoy playing the pinball 2000 machines, the real ones.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298759 - 11/11/12 03:31 AM
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> we've gotten almost all of it all now other than what collectors are hoarding
Oh Marble Man, how you haunt me.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Surgeville]
#298760 - 11/11/12 03:47 AM
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A drop in a bucket compared to what is in Japan.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298765 - 11/11/12 05:54 AM
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> The best only way to preserve them is get them in a mame skeleton driver.
Not really imho. They aren't arcade games... there's nothing to emulate... they are pc games. I mean do you really want to bloat mame/mess with a windows xp emulator at this stage of the game? As I said, years from now it will be more doable, but not at the present time. Even when the time comes it STILL makes more sense to just write loaders because... well... they are pc games.
I think the type-x games are the best example of this. It was trivial to get them running on a normal pc and you can find em all over the net and will continue to do so. Now if you are talking about the more ancient games that run on the equivelent of a 486 then sure, but the high level ones are a ways off. MAME would be so slow running them that it would be tedious to even write a driver.
Instead of focusing on newer games, it might make more sense to focus on the ancient ones. I'm talking EM games and EM hybrids. They are more expensive, and it's a bigger pain in the butt (in most instances you'd have to buy the entire game, not just a circuit board) but these types of games are fading fast and as of yet there is NO effort to preserve them... pinball excluded of course.
Most of them are so primative that it wouldn't take much to make an emulator/simulator. They just need to be carefully taken apart, have the artwork scanned and have their "trace boards" scanned as well as the speed of movements documented.
I think 18 wheeler is a good example of this. It's already emulated pretty well in mame.... we just need a scan of the road surface and lamps and some 2d/3d models based on the truck. Then it's just a matter of exploiting the artwork system and setting up some virtual switches and you've got a really good approximation of a game most people will never get the chance to play.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: HowardC]
#298767 - 11/11/12 06:09 AM
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> > The best only way to preserve them is get them in a mame skeleton driver.
>
> Not really imho. They aren't arcade games... there's nothing to emulate...
100% wrong and what I do is preserve arcade game data. They are arcade games with data to preserve.
> they are
> pc games. I mean do you really want to bloat mame/mess with a windows xp emulator at
> this stage of the game? As I said, years from now it will be more doable, but not at
> the present time. Even when the time comes it STILL makes more sense to just write
> loaders because... well... they are pc games.
Having games in mame puts them on hard drives around the world and stops the few people who work at this stuff from having to keep up with it. I can speak about this with as much authority as anyone. Ask Tafoid how many times he has asked me to reupload stuff. It isn't even possible for some of the stuff now because of bandwidth caps. Getting stuff in mame quickly is the best way. What if I got hit by a bus. You are completely wrong.
> I think the type-x games are the best example of this. It was trivial to get them
> running on a normal pc and you can find em all over the net and will continue to do
> so. Now if you are talking about the more ancient games that run on the equivelent of
> a 486 then sure, but the high level ones are a ways off. MAME would be so slow
> running them that it would be tedious to even write a driver.
No... The Type-X, you don't even understand the picture of the situation. The fact that they are shitdumped just makes a lot of people less concerned about getting correct dumps. The ones on the web aren't in mame because they are hacked up. That's the only reason. People I know are scared to try to dump them correctly because of rumors that they self destruct if you do it wrong.
> Instead of focusing on newer games, it might make more sense to focus on the ancient
> ones. I'm talking EM games and EM hybrids. They are more expensive, and it's a bigger
> pain in the butt (in most instances you'd have to buy the entire game, not just a
> circuit board) but these types of games are fading fast and as of yet there is NO
> effort to preserve them... pinball excluded of course.
>
> Most of them are so primative that it wouldn't take much to make an
> emulator/simulator. They just need to be carefully taken apart, have the artwork
> scanned and have their "trace boards" scanned as well as the speed of movements
> documented.
I deal with arcade game data. The task you are talking about is for someone else.
> I think 18 wheeler is a good example of this. It's already emulated pretty well in
> mame.... we just need a scan of the road surface and lamps and some 2d/3d models
> based on the truck. Then it's just a matter of exploiting the artwork system and
> setting up some virtual switches and you've got a really good approximation of a game
> most people will never get the chance to play.
18 Wheeler road art is a viable target for the DU but most EM games are not.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298770 - 11/11/12 07:50 AM
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>No... The Type-X, you don't even understand the picture of the situation. The fact that they are shitdumped just makes a lot of people less concerned about getting correct dumps. The ones on the web aren't in mame because they are hacked up. That's the only reason. People I know are scared to try to dump them correctly because of rumors that they self destruct if you do it wrong.
You are right. By the way. Raiden III or Raiden IV. I don't remember which one but I saw the planes having graphics problem. The other one having speed problem at the video screen. No telling what else is broken. lol
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298772 - 11/11/12 08:03 AM
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I still see the value in buying these rare PCB's that have un~emulated protection devices when they come up for sale.
We had a good percentage success rate with the de-caps that have been completed, although there have been some failures.
Granted we have managed to clear most of the backlog of undumped early games and hack variant PCB's but we should not stop looking for them, and purchasing them as they come up.
In reality the de-capping may take each hardcore members of the MAME community to commit to paying something each week or month for these chips to be de-capped in a more timely fashion.
Has anyone contacted the academics at the Game Preservation Society about our quandary with getting these chips emulated?
These academics interested in game preservation are more likely to be able get free access to the required high powered scanning electron microscopes needed to read the protection chips through the various university campuses they are doing research at.
http://www.archaeology.org/1107/features/mos_technology_6502_computer_chip_cpu.html
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Tingoes]
#298773 - 11/11/12 08:18 AM
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> I still see the value in buying these rare PCB's that have un~emulated protection
> devices when they come up for sale.
> We had a good percentage success rate with the de-caps that have been completed,
> although there have been some failures.
> Granted we have managed to clear most of the backlog of undumped early games and hack
> variant PCB's but we should not stop looking for them, and purchasing them as they
> come up.
If I gave the impression that I was going to stop looking or buying then that was not intended.
> In reality the de-capping may take each hardcore members of the MAME community to
> commit to paying something each week or month for these chips to be de-capped in a
> more timely fashion.
Well I'm not sure how realistic that is at this time on multiple levels but there has never been an excess of money for more than a day or 2.
> Has anyone contacted the academics at the Game Preservation Society about our
> quandary with getting these chips emulated?
I work with them directly and have never seen them decap a chip.
> These academics interested in game preservation are more likely to be able get free
> access to the required high powered scanning electron microscopes needed to read the
> protection chips through the various university campuses they are doing research at.
>
> http://www.archaeology.org/1107/features/mos_technology_6502_computer_chip_cpu.html
Hmm well hopefully in the future they will get the equipment? I haven't read the article but their members have been involved with donating chips and money to the doc effort.
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298783 - 11/11/12 07:02 PM
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Am I the only one who wants to know what was the rare Capcom game ?
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: CTOJAH]
#298784 - 11/11/12 07:08 PM
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I'll announce it when it arrives just like everything else. It is not a game that is going to blow minds and be a favorite so I suggest you don't get your hopes up. It's just extremely rare like I said.
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298785 - 11/11/12 07:13 PM
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Thank You !
My curiosity is (half)satisfied 
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Diet Go Go Fan]
#298795 - 11/12/12 12:52 AM
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Good luck, hope you find "Ryu Vs Ken" Poker game up there.
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| Naoki |
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Reged: 11/10/09
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298802 - 11/12/12 02:11 AM
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SO is the question "Do we go with getting PC based arcade games"? If so, yes IMO. No matter what system, whether it be unique, based on consoles or standard PCs, they're a part of history and should be preserved, even if they're lackluster titles or crappy clones, still nice to see them and also (atleast to me) it's fun to see how they worked. My Megatouch board for example, knew it was PC based but didn't know much more, turns out the board was a lot older than I was expecting (original pentium than the P3/4 I expected lol) and the custom ISA card which was just a combination of a Crystal soundblaster clone, PCMCIA card reader, joystick input and security reader, was nice to see how it was made. It gives me an understanding of how some buisnesses work when maing games, but I digress.
Speaking of MT, what happened to the submision I gave? (Soryr, haven't followed for a while)
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On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Naoki]
#298803 - 11/12/12 02:18 AM
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I'm basically saying I have to start buying PC based games with donation money so if you don't want your money going toward them then don't donate anymore.
Megatouch stuff is submission-cursed. Don't hold your breath.
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| Naoki |
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Reged: 11/10/09
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298804 - 11/12/12 02:36 AM
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Ah fair enough.
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----
On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: HowardC]
#298841 - 11/12/12 05:50 PM
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> IMHO it's a waste of time to put these games in mame because mame isn't well suited
> for them at least not yet it isn't. Emulation isn't necessary, they are typically xp
> compatable programs, they just require a loader to bypass either a hardware or
> software form of protection.
Call us in 5 years when new PCs no longer can boot XP (and then in 10 to 15 when Intel removes 32-bit mode entirely from the CPUs and the processor just comes up in x64). We'll be ready. Your piracy loaders won't be.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: HowardC]
#298842 - 11/12/12 05:54 PM
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> Not really imho. They aren't arcade games... there's nothing to emulate... they are
> pc games.
Nonsense. They are arcade games. The hardware is irrelevant. Or do you want to argue that Q*Bert isn't really an arcade game because it runs on an 8086 and a sufficiently fancy loader could make it run on a PC?
> I mean do you really want to bloat mame/mess with a windows xp emulator at
> this stage of the game?
You're way too late for that.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Smitdogg]
#298843 - 11/12/12 06:00 PM
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> The laserdiscs seem to be stuck because there is a belief that we can achieve perfect
> instead of just really good. But then again they were stuck before that idea was
> born.
Yeah. I'd like to see the "really good" dumps at least released so the drivers can be made to work while we wait on the Daphne guys and their nifty custom ASICs to get done, but even Aaron doesn't have control of that AFAIK.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#298850 - 11/12/12 08:10 PM
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>DICE has me really excited. I know he doesn't have a whole lot of time to work on it, so
>releases are sporadic, and the games that he is simulating take a ton of work.
Kudos to what Adam B. has been doing regarding DICE this year and also credits to Tingoes [Guru too] for the Stunt Cycle pcb from years earlier in why Stunt Cycle is running in DICE.
>An interesting concept to ponder is a multi-game, multi-developer simulator like MAME
>for these games, but that concept has its own issues and mountains to climb (i.e.
>developer interest, etc). Still... something to ponder...
For this year, it has been a good start so far after Couriersud's summer contributions got things started for preliminary non-cpu support. Other non-cpu games should eventually be supported, but it will be a while.
--
http://www.progettoemma.net/gioco.php?game=pong
http://www.progettoemma.net/gioco.php?game=pongf
http://mamedev.org/source/src/mame/drivers/pong.c.html
http://mamedev.org/releases/whatsnew_0147.txt
- Implemented a generic implementation to model discrete net lists.
[Couriersud]
* Based on timeslot modelling, the implementation models gate delays
in logic chips.
* Design ready to be split into a generic and a MAME implementation
part.
* Design prepared to merge in discrete components from discrete.*
* Supports code based as well as external net list parsing.
Ultimately, net lists and discrete emulation should share one code
base. The class design was set up to accomplish this. There is no
point in having multiple 555, 7474 implementations around. Most of the
code will be moved to lib/netlist going forward to allow usage in
other projects.
- Pong now uses netlist.h. This implementation reproduces all gate
timing and 555 related effects as described by Dr. H. Holden in his
2012 publication "ATARI PONG E CIRCUIT ANALYSIS & LAWN TENNIS".
[Couriersud]
-Updated netlist implementation: [Couriersud]
* Now supports any resolution fitting reasonably into a UINT64
* Execution now uses a list sorted by execution time
* Implementation now supports analog and digital inputs / outputs
* First step in a move to "terminals" being both input / output
* Improved object model
Pong:
* Rewrote video code, now emulates a monitor by analyzing the analog
video signal and identifying vsync and hysnc pulses.
* Removed all hacks.
Overall performance increase of about 10% over the previous "pongf"
implementation.
--
There is an old thread if wanting to see what remaining (emulation bug related?) issues there are concerning emulation of Pong.
--
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
--
It's odd that Pong works on every computer except mine. Short of formatting my hard disk drive, I have tried everything I can think of. I recently experimented with borrowing an lcd display and ran pong with lcd display while my old crt monitor was unplugged and sitting over to the side. Even the lcd display had exact same visual behavior as my old crt monitor.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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>It's a shame we can't all meet at a giant table with. Hoards of food to discuss cheer
>and growl over things done and left undone.
A MAME meet at a Round Table pizza parlor is in order. 
*see December 2006 'soCali MAME meet' photo below and example of delicious Round Table pizza imo*
>Are there titles that were released in the USA that are missing that shouldn't be?
For cpu controlled video games that were in N. America market, one would have to start looking at smaller tiered companies like Electro-Sport along with others just to see what else is left.
>Laserdisc titles. Everything is dumped, every disc is backed up. Nothing added to Mame
>in years.
A source file for Cops was recently added.
>Aside from that, I could only ask for more effort at sound, or at least add sample
>support. Along with the games, we don't want to lose how they sounded either. Then
>continued work on rebuilding the Black & White classics.
Going with what was mentioned by couriersud in .146u4 portion, it appears future plan will be to change handling of audio (generated by discrete hardware). Whatever audio and video that can be recorded would be useful for reference material. I am not sure if any of them would be added as external audio support files unless if audio came from a different hardware source such as tape cassettes that play audio.
--
http://mamedev.org/releases/whatsnew_0147.txt
- Implemented a generic implementation to model discrete net lists.
[Couriersud]
* Based on timeslot modelling, the implementation models gate delays
in logic chips.
* Design ready to be split into a generic and a MAME implementation
part.
* Design prepared to merge in discrete components from discrete.*
* Supports code based as well as external net list parsing.
Ultimately, net lists and discrete emulation should share one code
base. The class design was set up to accomplish this. There is no
point in having multiple 555, 7474 implementations around. Most of the
code will be moved to lib/netlist going forward to allow usage in
other projects.
--
btw: If able to take extreme closeup photos of artwork stickers and decals that are on the monitor of a Stunt Cycle cab, that would help out for artwork support.
[ATTACHED IMAGE]
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: HowardC]
#298854 - 11/12/12 09:13 PM
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>it might make more sense to focus on the ancient ones. I'm talking EM games and EM
>hybrids. They are more expensive, and it's a bigger pain in the butt (in most instances
>you'd have to buy the entire game, not just a circuit board) but these types of games
>are fading fast and as of yet there is NO effort to preserve them... pinball excluded
>of course.
>Most of them are so primative that it wouldn't take much to make an emulator/simulator.
>They just need to be carefully taken apart, have the artwork scanned and have
>their "trace boards" scanned as well as the speed of movements documented.
>I think 18 wheeler is a good example of this. It's already emulated pretty well in
>mame.... we just need a scan of the road surface and lamps and some 2d/3d models based
>on the truck. Then it's just a matter of exploiting the artwork system and setting up
>some virtual switches and you've got a really good approximation of a game most people
>will never get the chance to play.
I agree, but in some cases some serious money is needed to get a working cab unless a non-working/unrepairable cab is for sale and various parts can be salvaged in order to improve artwork.
As dwidel had posted here many years earlier on the forum (iirc something along this line): "It's not the cost of the item iself, but the cost of shipping that item. That is the main expense itself." imo one of the top 10 opinions ever posted here. A recent example comes to mind. A seller had a For-Play Rally cab on craigslist for sale at $50 in northern California. Someone here that wanted that cab resides in central Texas. With gas expenses these days shipping charge is likely around $600 to $900 to get a small, miniature size cab between those two locations. Even if I could have driven up there to get the cab, it would have been about $300 to 350 for gas expense.
As for old games being supported, I believe the best chances are with the various wall unit games like Gremlin's Trap Shoot or other simple artwork usage games since it appears to be possible to carefully remove section that has artwork piece and carefully scan that piece. What would still be needed is more folks in artwork area to clean up and improve scan quality and also a few folks with heavy duty EE experience that can emulate analog hardware discrete components in order to get audio sounds emulated and also any of the lamp backdrop visual effects. Unfortunately it looks like we're almost running on empty in this area that is needed for the older generation games.
With Pong emulated, it is a nice start for non-cpu videogames getting preliminary support.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: R. Belmont]
#298858 - 11/12/12 10:06 PM
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>
> Call us in 5 years when new PCs no longer can boot XP (and then in 10 to 15 when
> Intel removes 32-bit mode entirely from the CPUs and the processor just comes up in
> x64). We'll be ready. Your piracy loaders won't be.
Wouldn't a virtual machine do the trick? Or are you saying that new PCs won't be able to run Win XP 32bit virtual machines?
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: DaPlumber]
#298861 - 11/12/12 10:23 PM
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> Wouldn't a virtual machine do the trick? Or are you saying that new PCs won't be able
> to run Win XP 32bit virtual machines?
I believe he is saying it's possible future CPUs won't be able to execute X86 and will only be X64.
In other words they will not be backwards compatible.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: B2K24]
#298865 - 11/13/12 12:02 AM
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> I believe he is saying it's possible future CPUs won't be able to execute X86 and
> will only be X64.
>
> In other words they will not be backwards compatible.
Yup. You'd have to use a dynamic recompiler to run 32-bit software on a system like that. Which isn't the end of the world, but it means everything has to work like MAME (and Bochs and DOSBox, which are both also pure emulators).
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: R. Belmont]
#298866 - 11/13/12 12:07 AM
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>Yeah. I'd like to see the "really good" dumps at least released so the drivers can be >made to work while we wait on the Daphne guys and their nifty custom ASICs to get done, >but even Aaron doesn't have control of that AFAIK.
When you say really good dumps do you mean the video/audio capture? Couldn't they be put into MAME and then later be replaced by perfect captures? Isn't it possible that even with the perfect dump a better copy of a disc may turn up at a later date? Then the "perfect" copy would no longer be "perfect"?
BTW, what kind of equipment is the Daphne team using to get perfection? Is NASA involved?
Edited by Antny (11/13/12 12:10 AM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Antny]
#298903 - 11/13/12 07:03 PM
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> BTW, what kind of equipment is the Daphne team using to get perfection? Is NASA
> involved?
Late 80s/early 90s high-end LD players used a chipset which has:
1) A handy take-off point for the digitized raw data off the pickup after analog-domain conditioning/cleanup
2) A signal indicating if the current frame is valid or if there's been a drop-out
So if you can get 100% of the frames for a game with no drop-out you have guaranteed perfection. It's expected multiple copies of games may be required to achieve this (frames that drop out on one disc will be fine on another) but it's quite achievable.
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| Naoki |
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: B2K24]
#298914 - 11/13/12 08:59 PM
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XP 64-Bit.
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----
On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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| *=/STARRIDER\=* |
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MAME Punk
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Loc: an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door.
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: R. Belmont]
#298958 - 11/14/12 07:03 AM
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I would almost bet my life that Warren_O would be more than happy to share the Star Rider image if Phil said his driver was ready.
Then again Phil could already have it. ? :/
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There is no law in the arena
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: gregf]
#299491 - 11/20/12 12:17 PM
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> - Implemented a generic implementation to model discrete net lists.
> [Couriersud]
> * Based on timeslot modelling, the implementation models gate delays
> in logic chips.
> * Design ready to be split into a generic and a MAME implementation
> part.
> * Design prepared to merge in discrete components from discrete.*
> * Supports code based as well as external net list parsing.
> Ultimately, net lists and discrete emulation should share one code
> base. The class design was set up to accomplish this. There is no
> point in having multiple 555, 7474 implementations around. Most of the
> code will be moved to lib/netlist going forward to allow usage in
> other projects.
>
> - Pong now uses netlist.h. This implementation reproduces all gate
> timing and 555 related effects as described by Dr. H. Holden in his
> 2012 publication "ATARI PONG E CIRCUIT ANALYSIS & LAWN TENNIS".
> [Couriersud]
>
> -Updated netlist implementation: [Couriersud]
> * Now supports any resolution fitting reasonably into a UINT64
> * Execution now uses a list sorted by execution time
> * Implementation now supports analog and digital inputs / outputs
> * First step in a move to "terminals" being both input / output
> * Improved object model
> Pong:
> * Rewrote video code, now emulates a monitor by analyzing the analog
> video signal and identifying vsync and hysnc pulses.
> * Removed all hacks.
> Overall performance increase of about 10% over the previous "pongf"
> implementation.
Per our private conversation, a class design is really the best (and only) way to accomplish component condensation. Back when I did my preliminary work, I still had much to learn about C++ and had no chance of implementing any of what I discussed with you without some serious C++ wood-shedding (or help). The analog signal monitoring is what I had in mind back then as well, although I wouldn't have been able to accomplish it with my limited coding skills. couriersud's discrete approach is also what we had in mind, and I'm impressed with how he accomplished it. Way out of my league!
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU Update: And now, Weekend Update with Smitdogg Jones
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#299509 - 11/20/12 09:10 PM
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>a class design is really the best (and only) way to accomplish component condensation.
I am looking forward to how things will go when any of the multiple pcb board non-cpu video games are challenged sometime later.
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