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@Kale's: The COP Diary #1
#295689 - 09/13/12 09:10 PM
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Loc: southern CA, US
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Smitdogg]
#295691 - 09/13/12 10:16 PM
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It's impressive with the trial and error work to try to reach goal of being able to emulate the mechanisms of the hardware protection. I wonder how long it will take with emulating the protection of later (1990s era) Atari games (sloop?) whenever work begins on emulating that protection.
Maybe have a poll of which of the two is more challenging: Atari's sloop versus Seibu's. COP  ie: not counting anything that uses Dallas MCU protection
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: gregf]
#295697 - 09/14/12 12:21 AM
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> It's impressive with the trial and error work to try to reach goal of being able to
> emulate the mechanisms of the hardware protection. I wonder how long it will take
> with emulating the protection of later (1990s era) Atari games (sloop?) whenever work
> begins on emulating that protection.
>
> Maybe have a poll of which of the two is more challenging: Atari's sloop versus
> Seibu's. COP ie: not counting anything that uses Dallas MCU protection
I can't say anything about challenge, but in terms of outright complexity seibu's stuff has sloop beaten hands down.
LN
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"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Lord Nightmare]
#295698 - 09/14/12 12:50 AM
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> I can't say anything about challenge, but in terms of outright complexity seibu's
> stuff has sloop beaten hands down.
>
> LN
They probably have betting pools over at Seibu/Moss on when Mamedev finally breaks the protection.
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"Note to Noobs:
We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Master O]
#295699 - 09/14/12 02:08 AM
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> > I can't say anything about challenge, but in terms of outright complexity seibu's
> > stuff has sloop beaten hands down.
> >
> > LN
>
> They probably have betting pools over at Seibu/Moss on when Mamedev finally breaks
> the protection.
It isn't protection so much as a complete game-programmable co-processor with access to a ton of obscure peripherals, complicated sprite-sprite collision, an extremely complex dma engine (and palette dma), and math acceleration (sin/cos/tan/arctan/exp/etc). The games used these features (often poorly) to speed things up and offload processing from the main cpu.
The only part I know for sure is protection is the sprite encryption, but that's actually done by the sprite controller chip; raiden2 and zeroteam and raidendx just use the co-processor to unpack the key data before uploading it to that chip. (we have not yet figured out the exact correlation between the key data and the hardcoded-in-mame keys for each game but eventually it will get worked out)
LN
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"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Lord Nightmare]
#295708 - 09/14/12 06:06 AM
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> > > I can't say anything about challenge, but in terms of outright complexity seibu's
> > > stuff has sloop beaten hands down.
> > >
> > > LN
> >
> > They probably have betting pools over at Seibu/Moss on when Mamedev finally breaks
> > the protection.
>
> It isn't protection so much as a complete game-programmable co-processor with access
> to a ton of obscure peripherals, complicated sprite-sprite collision, an extremely
> complex dma engine (and palette dma), and math acceleration
> (sin/cos/tan/arctan/exp/etc). The games used these features (often poorly) to speed
> things up and offload processing from the main cpu.
> The only part I know for sure is protection is the sprite encryption, but that's
> actually done by the sprite controller chip; raiden2 and zeroteam and raidendx just
> use the co-processor to unpack the key data before uploading it to that chip. (we
> have not yet figured out the exact correlation between the key data and the
> hardcoded-in-mame keys for each game but eventually it will get worked out)
>
> LN
So, basically, Seibu has put up as many barriers (custom hardware) as it possibly can to frustrate anyone who attempts to reverse engineer it. Saying they've done a good job in that regard is an understatement.
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"Note to Noobs:
We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Lord Nightmare]
#295721 - 09/14/12 01:19 PM
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Sounds a bit like e.g. the Nintendo DSP chips except much more powerful and implemented as a custom ASIC instead of as an MCU.
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: jonwil]
#295743 - 09/14/12 07:21 PM
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Well it's mostly amazing how great this trojan is, because Angelo is discovering step by step interesting things and how it works 
we will surely have a very interesting update(s) in moments concerning those.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: @Kale's: The COP Diary #1
[Re: Lord Nightmare]
#295752 - 09/14/12 10:34 PM
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> It isn't protection so much as a complete game-programmable co-processor with access
> to a ton of obscure peripherals, complicated sprite-sprite collision, an extremely
> complex dma engine (and palette dma), and math acceleration
That's not really correct - it's more like the SNES's multiply assist writ very, very, very large.
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ie: not counting anything that uses Dallas MCU protection
