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DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
#294181 - 08/21/12 05:30 PM
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We picked up a medal game by Jaleco called Ganbare Jajamaru Hop Step & Jump. I have to guess at what the controls are but it looks like it's just a typical paper rock scissors style kids gambling thing. Not much to it, those Japanese kids gambling away their life savings as usual but the graphics are cute and the board is extremely rare. Never heard of or seen before.
board
http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/pics/hopstep.jpg
video
http://www.sendspace.com/file/ktt2vd
Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up. Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
card
http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Smitdogg]
#294182 - 08/21/12 05:50 PM
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> Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
Nope. The Daphne guys are working on a new way to dump laserdiscs that will require everyone to redownload the existing CHDs and has an uncertain time frame. Understandably we don't want to put out (m)any old-format CHDs while that percolates.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: R. Belmont]
#294186 - 08/21/12 08:02 PM
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> > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
>
> Nope. The Daphne guys are working on a new way to dump laserdiscs that will require
> everyone to redownload the existing CHDs and has an uncertain time frame.
> Understandably we don't want to put out (m)any old-format CHDs while that percolates.
10GB or 15GB for a CHD? What a joke. Must be other way to run this as CHD but more compressed without give any damage on MAME.
Instead hateting this, i'm enjoy to play the fullset "not 100% complete" Daphne emulator here.
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Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: R. Belmont]
#294187 - 08/21/12 08:13 PM
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> > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
>
> Nope. The Daphne guys are working on a new way to dump laserdiscs that will require
> everyone to redownload the existing CHDs and has an uncertain time frame.
> Understandably we don't want to put out (m)any old-format CHDs while that percolates.
Link to Work-In-Progress thread?
- Stiletto
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| Naoki |
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294189 - 08/21/12 09:32 PM
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...Theve always been that big, and it's uncompressed AVI data so I'm not surprised. Heck, some CHDs I've made are massive, 30+GB
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----
On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Naoki]
#294190 - 08/21/12 09:50 PM
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Hey, that's a pretty cool find! 8" laserdiscs are really unusual.
@Naoki: What did you make into a 30 GB CHD file?!
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294191 - 08/21/12 11:00 PM
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> > > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again?
> Last
> > > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> >
> > Nope. The Daphne guys are working on a new way to dump laserdiscs that will require
> > everyone to redownload the existing CHDs and has an uncertain time frame.
> > Understandably we don't want to put out (m)any old-format CHDs while that
> percolates.
>
> 10GB or 15GB for a CHD? What a joke. Must be other way to run this as CHD but more
> compressed without give any damage on MAME.
> Instead hateting this, i'm enjoy to play the fullset "not 100% complete" Daphne
> emulator here.
Yeah I've said it before. I'm all for making an pristine "archival copy" of these games for future use, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to actually run such a copy when most of those games ran a cruddy 480i via ntsc (coaxial) to rgb converter. I guess some people want the games to look better than they did originally, but if it would cut the file size in half I would be ok with compressed 480i.  I mean just look at cube quest. The file size is HUGE for that one, but if you play the actual game, the quality of the film isn't all that great.
It's one of those "options would be nice" deals again.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Naoki]
#294193 - 08/21/12 11:14 PM
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> ...Theve always been that big, and it's uncompressed AVI data so I'm not surprised.
> Heck, some CHDs I've made are massive, 30+GB
And i insist .Mp4 or .3gp much better... 
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294194 - 08/21/12 11:16 PM
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> > > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again?
> Last
> > > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> >
> > Nope. The Daphne guys are working on a new way to dump laserdiscs that will require
> > everyone to redownload the existing CHDs and has an uncertain time frame.
> > Understandably we don't want to put out (m)any old-format CHDs while that
> percolates.
>
> 10GB or 15GB for a CHD? What a joke. Must be other way to run this as CHD but more
> compressed without give any damage on MAME.
> Instead hateting this, i'm enjoy to play the fullset "not 100% complete" Daphne
> emulator here.
Look pal, if you want to play your porny games you'd better give up the hard drive space, you know?
As long as the data is preserved -perfectly-, who cares if the files are huge? I won't download it - seriously, it'd be a waste of time, I don't even know how to play Mahjong - but it's great that it's being preserved.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Foxhack]
#294197 - 08/21/12 11:27 PM
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I'd like to see the next (final?) batch be a resolution of exactly 2X the original instead of the odd 1.2 or whatever it is now. Don't care how many gigs they are. But I'd be happy with just getting the ball moving on it at all.
Bring on Dragon's Lair.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Foxhack]
#294200 - 08/22/12 12:15 AM
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> Look pal, if you want to play your porny games you'd better give up the hard drive
> space, you know?
>
> As long as the data is preserved -perfectly-, who cares if the files are huge? I
> won't download it - seriously, it'd be a waste of time, I don't even know how to play
> Mahjong - but it's great that it's being preserved.
Let'me inform you i got 4 discs with 2TB.
And i can buy some more.
So i'm not worried about at all.
Mahjong is very easy to learn, go to wikipedia and see for yourself.
And a little patience you can learn some japanese as well.
You can perfectly use 7-zip and compress this.
It will help you a lot.
Please don´t be a king. 
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: R. Belmont]
#294203 - 08/22/12 12:56 AM
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Any idea how it differs from the process Aaron explained back in '08?
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| *=/STARRIDER\=* |
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MAME Punk
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: WarrenO]
#294205 - 08/22/12 01:10 AM
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Hey Warren,
Any chance you could give a brief description of whats involved with the new capture process?
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There is no law in the arena
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Smitdogg]
#294207 - 08/22/12 01:20 AM
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> I'd like to see the next (final?) batch be a resolution of exactly 2X the original
> instead of the odd 1.2 or whatever it is now. Don't care how many gigs they are. But
> I'd be happy with just getting the ball moving on it at all.
>
> Bring on Dragon's Lair.
Oh yeah! If needed, I'd buy a hard drive specially for Don Bluth's games.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Foxhack]
#294237 - 08/22/12 12:57 PM
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> As long as the data is preserved -perfectly-, who cares if the files are huge? I
> won't download it - seriously, it'd be a waste of time, I don't even know how to play
> Mahjong - but it's great that it's being preserved.
Laserdiscs are analog technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc#Technical_information) so there is no -perfect-, just "not-as-good" and "better". Sorry, picky point.
But to expand on what Kitsune is saying, what is the concern with file size anyway? Hard drives are about $100 for 2tb. MAME is less than half that size. Unless you live in a place with ridiculously small download caps or expensive broadband, a few 15-20gb files are a small pain to download, but you only have to do it once. Or in this case, twice in (how long has it been- three? four?) years. What am I missing?
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Pochi]
#294248 - 08/22/12 03:20 PM
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Total is 48 games: http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/games/
With this new one 49. Less 500GB.
I Don´t expect 100 or 200. 1TB or 2TB.
The good option is using the same way as Daphne emu does to MAME emulator.
The games are all the same even without using CHD files.
That is good choise to save more space.
I have all games and i not worried about.
MESS is good choice to be on MAME for sure.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294249 - 08/22/12 03:39 PM
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#294250 - 08/22/12 03:44 PM
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294260 - 08/22/12 06:11 PM
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> Total is 48 games: http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/games/
>
> With this new one 49. Less 500GB.
> I Don´t expect 100 or 200. 1TB or 2TB.
>
> The good option is using the same way as Daphne emu does to MAME emulator.
> The games are all the same even without using CHD files.
> That is good choise to save more space.
> I have all games and i not worried about.
> MESS is good choice to be on MAME for sure.
The data is not the same.
That's like comparing a DVD to a Bluray - sure, the DVD looks fine and will be good enough for a normal person, but it has a lot less quality (in video) as a Bluray. Most people don't care or won't care about the difference, but when it comes to data preservation, the bigger option is better.
Also, doesn't Daphne use MPEG / MP4 videos? I thought they were out of MAME because of patent issues.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Foxhack]
#294262 - 08/22/12 06:48 PM
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> Also, doesn't Daphne use MPEG / MP4 videos? I thought they were out of MAME because
> of patent issues.
My conclusion is...
MAME Laser Discs is a waste of time.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294273 - 08/22/12 09:05 PM
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Stop bickering. This is not the place for it.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: *=/STARRIDER\=*]
#294275 - 08/22/12 09:13 PM
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Wow, such hate! 
Re: MP4 and various MPEG variants
This has been discussed many times. Heavily compressed formats and codecs are not suitable for several reasons:
- They don't support precise random access and playback modes. Good luck finding an MPEG player that can instantly skip forward exactly 30 frames, then play backwards at 2x, then 1x, then 3x speed, all at precise moments, without any pauses or glitches.
- One of MAME's primary goals is preservation. Using lossy formats goes against this, as it reduces quality and severely limits your options for conversion to other formats the future. (Think: priceless photographs archived as 256-color PC Paintbrush PCX format because it was "good enough" at the time.) If everyone just uses the lossy files, it's not being well preserved.
- The newer formats are heavily patent-encumbered. Even the "free" Theora codec has patents. This causes all sorts of licensing problems that the devs do not want to deal with.
- Disk space and bandwidth are going from cheap to nearly free. In a few years it'll be no big deal to push files of this size around.
This may be inconvenient for people who feel OMG MUST PLAY NOW THIS VERY MINUTE, but it's for the best.
Re: Resolution
720x480 is the broadcast standard, and most video gear works best at this resolution. Up or downscaling for display is simple, so it makes sense to store the original non-square pixels as-is.
Re: New format
There is an experimental format for Daphne and the Dexter hardware laserdisc replacement currently in development, but it's not related to what's needed for MAME and archival purposes.
However, I *am* hatching a plan to capture a much purer archival version of the video. I discussed it briefy with Aaron at CAX, and he seemed to like the idea, but I don't expect he'll be spending time on it. If there's anyone willing to help who's handy with SMD rework and/or FPGA programming, please PM me.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Ramirez]
#294280 - 08/22/12 10:58 PM
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Stop bickering. This is not the place for it.
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| AeroCityMayor |
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Entity formerly known as alien_mame
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Smitdogg]
#294295 - 08/23/12 12:44 AM
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>
> Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
>
>
> card
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
>
> manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
WOW d00d, thanks for grabbing this. I hovered over this a number of time but didn;t commit. Nice to know it's in good hands now.
Cheers,
Ralph.
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Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: WarrenO]
#294298 - 08/23/12 01:33 AM
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> Re: New format
>
> There is an experimental format for Daphne and the Dexter hardware laserdisc
> replacement currently in development, but it's not related to what's needed for MAME
> and archival purposes.
I think this is the format described at the DAPHNE wiki? JPEG-per-field+uncompressed 44100 PCM audio+VBI data?
https://www.daphne-emu.com:9443/mediawiki/index.php/LDIMage
> However, I *am* hatching a plan to capture a much purer archival version of the
> video. I discussed it briefy with Aaron at CAX, and he seemed to like the idea, but I
> don't expect he'll be spending time on it. If there's anyone willing to help who's
> handy with SMD rework and/or FPGA programming, please PM me.
Ooh. Someone please do this!
- Stiletto
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Translation needed.
[Re: Smitdogg]
#294300 - 08/23/12 01:38 AM
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> Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
>
> card
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
>
> manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
Could someone please translate the name for me?
- Stiletto
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| AWJ |
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: Stiletto]
#294305 - 08/23/12 02:00 AM
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> > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again? Last
> > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> >
> > card
> > http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
> >
> > manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> > http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
>
> Could someone please translate the name for me?
LD Mahjong #4 Shabon-dama
(Shabon-dama means "soap bubbles")
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: AWJ]
#294306 - 08/23/12 02:15 AM
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> > > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass up.
> > > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again?
> Last
> > > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> > >
> > > card
> > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
> > >
> > > manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
> >
> > Could someone please translate the name for me?
>
> LD Mahjong #4 Shabon-dama
>
> (Shabon-dama means "soap bubbles")
Thanks!
What's the original, non-translated form in kanji or whatever as on the manual/disc?
- Stiletto
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| AWJ |
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: Stiletto]
#294307 - 08/23/12 03:38 AM
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> > > > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass
> up.
> > > > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again?
> > Last
> > > > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> > > >
> > > > card
> > > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
> > > >
> > > > manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> > > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
> > >
> > > Could someone please translate the name for me?
> >
> > LD Mahjong #4 Shabon-dama
> >
> > (Shabon-dama means "soap bubbles")
>
> Thanks!
>
> What's the original, non-translated form in kanji or whatever as on the manual/disc?
>
> - Stiletto
The card reads ＬＤマージャン 第４弾 シャボン玉
The manual just reads ＬＤマージャン シャボン玉, so the 第４弾 part might not actually be part of the official title, just an indication that it's the fourth game in the series.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Lewis King]
#294308 - 08/23/12 04:32 AM
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Stop bickering. This is not the place for it.
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: AWJ]
#294319 - 08/23/12 07:51 AM
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> > > > > Also picked up a Nichibutsu laserdisc upgrade kit that was too cheap to pass
> > up.
> > > > > Maybe Aaron will read out the disc and get the laserdisc stuff rolling again?
> > > Last
> > > > > Survivor worked for Sega, will porn work for Nichibutsu?
> > > > >
> > > > > card
> > > > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/8pu8co
> > > > >
> > > > > manual (not sure about the correct order of the last 3 pages)
> > > > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/vf1hmb
> > > >
> > > > Could someone please translate the name for me?
> > >
> > > LD Mahjong #4 Shabon-dama
> > >
> > > (Shabon-dama means "soap bubbles")
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > What's the original, non-translated form in kanji or whatever as on the
> manual/disc?
> >
> > - Stiletto
>
> The card reads ＬＤマージャン
> 第４弾 シャボン玉
>
> The manual just reads ＬＤマージャン
> シャボン玉, so the 第４弾 part might
> not actually be part of the official title, just an indication that it's the fourth
> game in the series.
I took a peek at it and it appears the manual is just a generic one for all games in the series. Which would make sense, since this game was only a bunch of chips and a replacement Laser Disc - it would let operators update the game to something newer so players wouldn't get bored from watching the same girls.
If my hunch is true, then adding new clones will be pretty easy since you can just drop in new roms and LD CHDs when they show up and not have to worry about slightly different hardware.
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: Stiletto]
#294325 - 08/23/12 01:34 PM
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> > Re: New format
> >
> > There is an experimental format for Daphne and the Dexter hardware laserdisc
> > replacement currently in development, but it's not related to what's needed for
> MAME
> > and archival purposes.
>
> I think this is the format described at the DAPHNE wiki? JPEG-per-field+uncompressed
> 44100 PCM audio+VBI data?
> https://www.daphne-emu.com:9443/mediawiki/index.php/LDIMage
>
> > However, I *am* hatching a plan to capture a much purer archival version of the
> > video. I discussed it briefy with Aaron at CAX, and he seemed to like the idea, but
> I
> > don't expect he'll be spending time on it. If there's anyone willing to help who's
> > handy with SMD rework and/or FPGA programming, please PM me.
>
> Ooh. Someone please do this!
>
> - Stiletto
If you understand how video codecs work and the troubles getting video formats to skip to different frames this LDI format makes MUCH more sense.
It makes more sense than mame's current ld format btw. So why are they still doing that one again? I mean if you are worried about the quality, change the jpg to a lossless compressed png and you are good to go.
This is more true to how laserdic players operate as well. Most players back in the day would let to advance exactly one frame at a time on the remote, something you really can't even do on bluray players today.
So I'm guessing it would be a headerless PCM (aka "raw" file) for the audio that's streamed one frame at a time?
I think loading that many jpgs in rapid succession could get a bit hairy, but otherwise I'm loving that format!
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| AeroCityMayor |
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Entity formerly known as alien_mame
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Reged: 11/11/03
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Posts: 2438
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Loc: Wakefield, West Yorks, UK.
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: Foxhack]
#294327 - 08/23/12 02:07 PM
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>
> I took a peek at it and it appears the manual is just a generic one for all games in
> the series. Which would make sense, since this game was only a bunch of chips and a
> replacement Laser Disc - it would let operators update the game to something newer so
> players wouldn't get bored from watching the same girls.
>
> If my hunch is true, then adding new clones will be pretty easy since you can just
> drop in new roms and LD CHDs when they show up and not have to worry about slightly
> different hardware.
I have 11 of the High Rate DVD games and your guesses are consistent with my collection.
HTH
Cheers,
Ralph.
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Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!
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Re: DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
[Re: HowardC]
#294349 - 08/23/12 09:22 PM
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> It makes more sense than mame's current ld format btw. So why are they still doing
> that one again? I mean if you are worried about the quality, change the jpg to a
> lossless compressed png and you are good to go.
That's pretty much what the current CHD format does. Video fields are stored as individual images with lossless compression. It's not PNG -- Aaron used his own compression algorithm for it, which beats huffyuv for total file size.
The formats share some similarities, but I guess you could say CHD is optimized for quality, and .ldimg is optimized for performance.
>
> I think loading that many jpgs in rapid succession could get a bit hairy, but
> otherwise I'm loving that format!
It is intensive, but workable. The MJPEG video codec has done something similar for ages -- JPEG-like compression of individual fields or frames -- but with fairly poor quality vs. size.
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Translation needed.
[Re: AWJ]
#294353 - 08/23/12 10:14 PM
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Re: hopstep
[Re: Smitdogg]
#295380 - 09/09/12 12:03 PM
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> We picked up a medal game by Jaleco called Ganbare Jajamaru Hop Step & Jump. I have
> to guess at what the controls are but it looks like it's just a typical paper rock
> scissors style kids gambling thing. Not much to it, those Japanese kids gambling away
> their life savings as usual but the graphics are cute and the board is extremely
> rare. Never heard of or seen before.
>
>
> board
> http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/pics/hopstep.jpg
>
> video
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/ktt2vd
>
It's been added to MAME, but driver glitches are very noticeable in this game.
Please keep the board around for dumping the NEC ADPCM chip. Any volunteers? see uPD77P56 datasheet - PROM Data Readout Procedure.
I see you dumped it already, nevermind then 
Edited by hap (09/09/12 12:36 PM)
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Index 
Threaded 
DU Updates: A couple of weird bits from Japan
Reply
[Re: 
I mean just look at cube quest. The file size is HUGE for that one, but if you play the actual game, the quality of the film isn't all that great.
