*=/STARRIDER\=* |
MAME Punk
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Your papers please!!!
#290262 - 06/26/12 06:21 AM
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This is gonna be my first political post since the incident, let's see how it goes.
As an American citizen who grew up playing hockey near the northern border, I went to Canada probably 20+times. I have memories of my father having to have that documentation at the crossing and being damn sure it was all together and easily accessible while we were in Canada.
At the time the idea of that did scare me a little but being an adult and understanding now what it was about, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do the same and actually enforce it.
We were there lawfully and knew we needed our shit! Why should the US be any different?
PS: Obama is scaring the fuck out of me!
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There is no law in the arena
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GatKong |
Tetris Mason
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: *=/STARRIDER\=*]
#290264 - 06/26/12 06:43 AM
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I know of no other country where you don't get thrown in jail for crossing the border illegally, and especially none that rewards you for said crime with preferential treatment above and beyond those privileges afforded to its legal residents.
If a nation can't distinguish between citizen and non-citizen, then being a citizen has no meaning, and sovereignty of the nation is therefore corrupt.
If the President can pick and choose which laws duly passed by congress he will enforce... and which he will knowingly and willfully ignore... then where do we draw the line? That's a dangerous precedent to set. Shall we also look the other way for misappropriation of funds, or illegal search and seizures, maybe voter fraud... what is the difference? A law is broken, and some future president may just say,"That's ok, because this fraud voter is under the age of 32, he's free to go." So I agree, the precedent set by this administration scares me too. No member of either political party should support disregard for the Constitution and its separation of powers, for while it may serve your party's immediate political expediency, the precedent it sets is a far more dangerous price to pay for that advantage.
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: GatKong]
#290265 - 06/26/12 07:25 AM
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The problem comes in enforcing these laws. If you require foreigners to have papers on hand to prove they're allowed to be in your country, how do you determine that someone is a foreigner before demanding their papers? You have to require everyone to have their papers on hand a la USSR. Otherwise what do you do with a person who claims they are a citizen and therefore need no papers, when an officer of the law suspects they are not? Well, an alternative that seems to be favoured by certain elements in the USA is to only require brown people to have papers, while leaving the innocent white people alone.
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*=/STARRIDER\=* |
MAME Punk
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Reged: 02/06/12
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Loc: an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door.
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BullShit!!!
[Re: Matty_]
#290266 - 06/26/12 07:32 AM
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Every Active American has and is proud to have a license or ID, we strive for them! The police ask for the LEGAL documents when you cannot provide STANDARD ID!
EOD
Edited by *=/STARRIDER\=* (06/26/12 08:02 AM)
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There is no law in the arena
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> Every Active American has and is proud to have a license or ID, we strive for them! > The police ask for the LEGAL documents when you cannot provide STANDARD ID!
What is "STANDARD ID"? Do children carry such documents at all times? Do you pick up your "STANDARD ID" when you go for a walk? Anyway, you're advocating a society where everyone has to carry papers at all times - your "STANDARD ID" amounts to the same the USSR required. Want to leave the house? Better have your "STANDARD ID" or you could be locked up for not being able to prove your entitlement to be there.
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Wow.
[Re: Matty_]
#290270 - 06/26/12 09:46 AM
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Was actually in full agreement with you until you brought the brown/white shit into play.
*whew!* That was close!
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Re: Wow.
[Re: aavada]
#290271 - 06/26/12 09:52 AM
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> Was actually in full agreement with you until you brought the brown/white shit into > play. > > *whew!* That was close!
Hey, I said "certain elements" - not necessarily you. (I also have to live up to my title.)
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Matty_]
#290272 - 06/26/12 11:25 AM
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> Do children carry such documents at all times?
It's particularly important that children carry their STANDARD ID so law enforcement can stop them on every street corner and ensure they aren't the children of ILLEGALS who will teach them to steal American jobs, just like Salma Hayek.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Matty_]
#290275 - 06/26/12 02:39 PM
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> > Every Active American has and is proud to have a license or ID, we strive for them! > > The police ask for the LEGAL documents when you cannot provide STANDARD ID! > > What is "STANDARD ID"? Do children carry such documents at all times? Do you pick up > your "STANDARD ID" when you go for a walk? Anyway, you're advocating a society where > everyone has to carry papers at all times - your "STANDARD ID" amounts to the same > the USSR required. Want to leave the house? Better have your "STANDARD ID" or you > could be locked up for not being able to prove your entitlement to be there.
Asking if children have standard ID is kind of a moot point, because if they are too young to be on their own, then their parents should be with them and could/should have proper ID.
If the child is old enough to be on their own, then they should have some form of ID with them. I know when I was old enough to have my first job (10), I always had my social security card in my wallet.
I ALWAYS carry ID on me, if not for law enforcement purposes, then others. A great example is if I get in a horrible accident, I have do not resuscitate on my ID, it also has information on who I am so they can contact my family.
Not having an ID is just a poor excuse, for almost any given situation.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Kuehnau]
#290276 - 06/26/12 02:50 PM
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> If the child is old enough to be on their own, then they should have some form of ID > with them. I know when I was old enough to have my first job (10), I always had my > social security card in my wallet.
WTF when I was five I played at the park with my friends with no parents around, and we had just the clothes on our backs. My mum would send me to the supermarket when I was six with just change enough change in my pocket to buy some rice. I didn't have any form of ID until much later. I would have been in my mid to late teens before I got any form of ID that I carried with me at all.
> Not having an ID is just a poor excuse, for almost any given situation.
So you're happy in a society where everyone is required to carry ID. I'd rather have the freedom to go about my business without being asked for papers without reasonable suspicion. In fact, I like the fact that I don't even present ID when I fly domestically (just the boarding pass that I print before I leave).
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mesk |
@ the arcade
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#290279 - 06/26/12 03:56 PM
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My mother is a immigrant.Her,my aunt and 2 uncles all came from Italy,when my mother was 9,so about 1958.They came here legally.If they had to it right way,why shouldnt all immigrants? So they can come here,get work,not pay taxes,and send that money back to their home country.That just isnt right. Something needs to be done about it,but I have very little faith that the current white house occupant will do anything about it.
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Gor |
Giver of truth.
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> Every Active American has and is proud to have a license or ID, we strive for them! > The police ask for the LEGAL documents when you cannot provide STANDARD ID! > > EOL
I don't think that's true. When I went to college in Chicago, I knew some 20-somethings that had no license as they were from Chicago and never intended to drive. Yeah, I thought it was nuts too, but it is what it is. I can't say whether they had state issues IDs or not. Of course, state IDs and driver's licenses don't prove anything, since they give illegals drivers licenses.
[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]
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Oh for Pete's sake.
loser.com
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Gor |
Giver of truth.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: mesk]
#290281 - 06/26/12 04:34 PM
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> My mother is a immigrant.Her,my aunt and 2 uncles all came from Italy,when my mother > was 9,so about 1958.They came here legally.If they had to it right way,why shouldnt > all immigrants? So they can come here,get work,not pay taxes,and send that money back > to their home country.That just isnt right. > Something needs to be done about it,but I have very little faith that the current > white house occupant will do anything about it.
Obama’s Record-High Deportations Draw Hispanic Scorn
Quote:
Since 2009, the annual average number of deportations has approached 400,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security. That’s double the annual average during President George W. Bush’s first term and 30 percent higher than the average when he left office.
I guess the current white house occupant doesn't like doing it, he's just really good at it.
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Oh for Pete's sake.
loser.com
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mesk |
@ the arcade
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Gor]
#290282 - 06/26/12 04:47 PM
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Yes I know that Gor.But im not talking about deportations,im talking about immigration law reform.I probably should have been clearer.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: mesk]
#290284 - 06/26/12 05:31 PM
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> My mother is a immigrant.Her,my aunt and 2 uncles all came from Italy,when my mother > was 9,so about 1958.They came here legally.If they had to it right way,why shouldnt > all immigrants? So they can come here,get work,not pay taxes,and send that money back > to their home country.That just isnt right.
That's not what I'm arguing about – it’s only orthogonally related. Imagine the following conversation:
Cop: Got evidence that you’re allowed to be in this country? Foreign worker: Sure, here’s my permit to work. Cop: Thanks, have a good day!
All well and good. Now imagine this situation:
Cop: Got evidence that you’re allowed to be in this country? ???: I’m a citizen, I’m not required to carry documentation.
Now Cop is faced with a difficult choice. He can presume that ??? is telling the truth and let them go on their way, potentially not enforcing immigration laws. His other choice is to arrest ??? and check their immigration status, in which case he risks infringing on a citizen’s right to move freely within the country without carrying papers. This right is written into law in the US.
The correct choice probably depends on the situation. If the cops are raiding a business with irregularities in their employment and tax records, I’d probably support checking immigration status. But in most situations I’d support the presumption of innocence and preservation of liberty.
Liberty is being eroded all over the Western world. An example that’s closer to home for me right now is the legislation introduced in an attempt to crack down on violent, drug-dealing bikie gangs. Yes, these gangs are a problem. But is the response appropriate? It’s now an offence to wear ”bikie gang colours” in any venue licensed to serve alcohol in Kings Cross (five minutes’ walk from my apartment). Members of bikie gangs and their associates are not permitted to own or operate tattoo parlours in the City of Sydney. A recently opened place (Kings Cross Ink) is coming under scrutiny – the cops say the proprietor is a bikie gang member, he says he isn’t. How do you prove it? How do you even define it? Is the law an infringement on the right to freely associate? But at the same time, I don’t want to see any more gang related shootings, etc.
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GatKong |
Tetris Mason
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#290286 - 06/26/12 05:56 PM
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> > Do children carry such documents at all times? > > It's particularly important that children carry their STANDARD ID so law enforcement > can stop them on every street corner and ensure they aren't the children of ILLEGALS > who will teach them to steal American jobs, just like Salma Hayek.
Honestly, your speaking about hypotheticals and hyperbole, but no law or policy calls for searching children on playgrounds.
In reality, children are enrolling in public schools, WIC and welfare, and getting state-sponsored medical care who aren't here legally because some states (California for example) don't require ID to enroll. Isn't today a milestone day for the state of California because it is officially bankrupt unless other states (responsible states?) bail it out?
In SC and TX, when I enroll my children for school every year, I need to provide birth certificates and social security cards... reasonable id checks before enrolling them in tax-funded public services.
In contrast to the lax US, when we travel in Brazil with my small children, not only do we need their picture IDs even to board a simple bus going from one city to the next, we also need a notarized letter from their state of residence AND a letter from that state verifying that the notary who signed said letter is actually a verified notary, in order to ride that bus. Even with all of this paperwork on us, we routinely get detained while they call various offices to verify our papers, and we schedule a couple extra hours for travel to compensate for this. We aren't even getting on a plane to leave the country... we're taking a BUS! We are clearly being racially profiled because Gatinha is a typical Brazilain "brown" skinned woman, but our children are atypically porcelain white, blue eyed and blond. We don't resent being stopped all the time for this documentation because Brazil is addressing a huge problem they have with child kidnapping and trafficking. I APPRECIATE that it is difficult to travel with our small children in Brazil, because it would hopefully save my children should they one day get taken from us.
A society has to do what it can to protect its citizens and vulnerable populations when there is a need and a problem. Our social services in the US are literally being bankrupt, so the need and problem is factually there. Fact checking citizens when enrolling for services is not an unreasonable step. Calling for manufactured outrage and demanding NOT to check IS unreasonable, because its only motivation is to garner votes at the expense of the society's sovereignty.
To expect a country to forgo its sovereignty and solvency so its citizens can walk around in unchecked anarchy mingling with likewise unchecked illegals is unreasonable. You'll eventually be "free" in a lawless bankrupt society of no value to its citizens.
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GatKong |
Tetris Mason
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: Matty_]
#290288 - 06/26/12 06:30 PM
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Hi Matty,
Your concerns about profiling assumes the law is stopping otherwise law-abiding persons on the street at random, which no policy or law has ever called for. Any person stopped by police routinely gets a background check, and including citizenship in that check not only isn't unreasonable, its the norm worldwide. Jaywalk in Mexico, speed in Italy, be publicly drunk in England, you'll get checked. If you claim a policy is calling for random citizen checks, you'll need to cite a reference.
Jump to this part of the thread here, plz.
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Gor |
Giver of truth.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: GatKong]
#290289 - 06/26/12 06:40 PM
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> > > Do children carry such documents at all times? > > > > It's particularly important that children carry their STANDARD ID so law > enforcement > > can stop them on every street corner and ensure they aren't the children of > ILLEGALS > > who will teach them to steal American jobs, just like Salma Hayek. > > Honestly, your speaking about hypotheticals and hyperbole, but no law or policy calls > for searching children on playgrounds. > > In reality, children are enrolling in public schools, WIC and welfare, and getting > state-sponsored medical care who aren't here legally because some states (California > for example) don't require ID to enroll. Isn't today a milestone day for the state of > California because it is officially bankrupt unless other states (responsible > states?) bail it out? > > In SC and TX, when I enroll my children for school every year, I need to provide > birth certificates and social security cards... reasonable id checks before enrolling > them in tax-funded public services. > > In contrast to the lax US, when we travel in Brazil with my small children, not only > do we need their picture IDs even to board a simple bus going from one city to the > next, we also need a notarized letter from their state of residence AND a letter from > that state verifying that the notary who signed said letter is actually a verified > notary, in order to ride that bus. Even with all of this paperwork on us, we > routinely get detained while they call various offices to verify our papers, and we > schedule a couple extra hours for travel to compensate for this. We aren't even > getting on a plane to leave the country... we're taking a BUS! We are clearly being > racially profiled because Gatinha is a typical Brazilain "brown" skinned woman, but > our children are atypically porcelain white, blue eyed and blond. We don't resent > being stopped all the time for this documentation because Brazil is addressing a huge > problem they have with child kidnapping and trafficking. I APPRECIATE that it is > difficult to travel with our small children in Brazil, because it would hopefully > save my children should they one day get taken from us. > > A society has to do what it can to protect its citizens and vulnerable populations > when there is a need and a problem. Our social services in the US are literally being > bankrupt, so the need and problem is factually there. Fact checking citizens when > enrolling for services is not an unreasonable step. Calling for manufactured outrage > and demanding NOT to check to IS unreasonable, because its only motivation is to > garner votes at the expense of the society's sovereignty. > > To expect a country to forgo its sovereignty and solvency so its citizens can walk > around in unchecked anarchy mingling with likewise unchecked illegals is > unreasonable. You'll eventually be "free" in a lawless bankrupt society of no value > to its citizens.
Gatinha is in Arizona for who knows why, maybe looking for a place for you two to die when you get old, and her purse gets stolen by a natural born citizen. She goes to the police to report her stolen purse, and because she is a typical Brazilian "brown" skinned woman with an accent and no ID, they detain her until her status can be determined. As per county policy, she's strip searched before going into the lockup. You're able to get her out within a few hours, but she found the whole experience degrading.
Is this cool because it might help catch an illegal, or BS because it's your wife? Or both?
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Oh for Pete's sake.
loser.com
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italie |
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: GatKong]
#290290 - 06/26/12 06:45 PM
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> Hi Matty, > > Your concerns about profiling assumes the law is stopping otherwise law-abiding > persons on the street at random, which no policy or law has ever called for. Any > person stopped by police routinely gets a background check, and including citizenship > in that check not only isn't unreasonable, its the norm worldwide. Jaywalk in Mexico, > speed in Italy, be publicly drunk in England, you'll get checked. If you claim a > policy is calling for random citizen checks, you'll need to cite a reference. > > Jump to this part of the thread here, plz.
Sheirif. Joe. Arapasshole.
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: Matty_]
#290291 - 06/26/12 07:04 PM
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It's called a state ID or driver's license.
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Re: BullShit!!!
[Re: Gor]
#290319 - 06/27/12 05:18 AM
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> Gatinha is in Arizona for who knows why, maybe looking for a place for you two to die > when you get old, > and her purse gets stolen by a natural born citizen. She goes to the police to report > her stolen purse, and > because she is a typical Brazilian "brown" skinned woman with an accent and no ID, > they detain her until > her status can be determined. As per county policy, she's strip searched before going > into the lockup. > You're able to get her out within a few hours, but she found the whole experience > degrading. > > Is this cool because it might help catch an illegal, or BS because it's your wife? Or > both?
Sounds like public airport checking for terrorists. It looks like your best solution would be a Berlin wall with a kilometer deep foundation, something definitely not cheap.
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Foxhack |
Furry guy
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Re: Your papers please!!!
[Re: GatKong]
#290369 - 06/27/12 10:33 PM
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> Hi Matty, > > Your concerns about profiling assumes the law is stopping otherwise law-abiding > persons on the street at random, which no policy or law has ever called for. Any > person stopped by police routinely gets a background check, and including citizenship > in that check not only isn't unreasonable, its the norm worldwide. Jaywalk in Mexico, > speed in Italy, be publicly drunk in England, you'll get checked. If you claim a > policy is calling for random citizen checks, you'll need to cite a reference. > > Jump to this part of the thread here, plz.
Actually, nobody gives a damn about your citizenship here.
Unless you're American. Then they mug you. Cops or robbers, same thing.
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