I don't know if this is the place to comment about it, but I have to say that I never really liked both MAME / MESS names that much. But now, I really appreciate that a new name for both projects is raising while both emulators are merging into an unique and huge project. I heavily support the new name 'UME' as stated in Haze's homepage: http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2012/05/21/ume-0-146-universal-machine-emulator/
> The "U" is not the same font as the rest of it in that one, it looks obviously wrong.
In my minds eye, the front left leg of the M in front of the right curve of the U, and the right leg of the M is behind the E. Kinda twisted/wedged in.
However my opinion weighted still = 0, so no worries
> I don't know if this is the place to comment about it, but I have to say that I never > really liked both MAME / MESS names that much. But now, I really appreciate that a > new name for both projects is raising while both emulators are merging into an unique > and huge project. I heavily support the new name 'UME' as stated in Haze's > homepagehttp://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/). > > I'll begin working in a new logo for it soon
> In my minds eye, the front left leg of the M in front of the right curve of the U, > and the right leg of the M is behind the E. Kinda twisted/wedged in.
Yeah, I see what he's trying to do, but to me it'd "read" better without the line of nothingness. Just let the U go behind the M naturally (and the M behind the E).
> I don't know if this is the place to comment about it, but I have to say that I never > really liked both MAME / MESS names that much. But now, I really appreciate that a > new name for both projects is raising while both emulators are merging into an unique > and huge project. I heavily support the new name 'UME' as stated in Haze's > homepagehttp://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/). > > I'll begin working in a new logo for it soon
The MAME and MESS name are not going anywhere. There is too much brand awareness, at least with MAME, to just discard them for something even less meaningless.
Nothing that Haze says represents either the MAME or MESS team, as he is not part of either one.
UME is like misfitmame. Which is ironic as universal machine emulator does not include sets supported by misfitmame.
> The MAME and MESS name are not going anywhere. There is too much brand awareness, at > least with MAME, to just discard them for something even less meaningless.
Indeed the names shouldn't go anywhere. MAME is the name to keep (for everything). I know people that don't go far from clicking "start" on their Windows that do know MAME. (btw none of them knows MESS - which is a pity)
> Nothing that Haze says represents either the MAME or MESS team, as he is not part of > either one.
Point being? I don't think he tried to talk as part of any of the two teams (still as an external viewer I don't get the "closed circle" that you call "team" as Haze clearly DOES contribute to both projects, correct?).
> UME is like misfitmame. Which is ironic as universal machine emulator does not > include sets supported by misfitmame.
No it is not like misfitMAME. UME plain and simple, is a single exe for MAME and MESS with AFAIK the same compile flags as the two separate official compiles. Why you present it as something else?
MESSUNI could possibly be identified as some kind of misfitMAME, as it is a very specific build.
Do you have actual data to backup your claim? (memory eater I mean) Just curious. I don't have any comparison data, it would be interesting to see.
That said, I am not paying any "usage fee" for using my RAM and I also limit multitasking when I run something like MAME anyway (or playing a commercial game).
> I believe this was already busted as a line of reasoning. Only the parts of the > program in-use get loaded into memory.
Yes that's what I thought too. Then again I don't know much, so I still would like to have his real data analysis on this. (he wouldn't take the time to make the "logo" he created if he wasn't sure of his statement... ...would he?)
> Nevertheless, this is my last response on this line, lest this go down the EXACT same > road the last few discussions have.
Oh it will. We all know it. It's not even funny any more.
Oh dear ! You don't like the colors ?! I just choose random phrase... ...like Upsetting Man's Ego, or Underground Mame Emulator, or ... ...Never Listen Spammer...
> Nevertheless, this is my last response on this line, lest this go down the EXACT same > road the last few discussions have.
To be fair, it generally goes OK until NLS shows up to white knight the bejesus out of Lord Voldemort. Seriously, self-expression has never been one of that dude's problems, there's no need to speak for him.
> > Nevertheless, this is my last response on this line, lest this go down the EXACT > same > > road the last few discussions have. > > To be fair, it generally goes OK until NLS shows up to white knight the bejesus out > of Lord Voldemort. Seriously, self-expression has never been one of that dude's > problems, there's no need to speak for him.
> I don't think he tried to talk as part of any of the two teams
The OP didn't think that. I was just making sure.
> (still as an external > viewer I don't get the "closed circle" that you call "team" as Haze clearly DOES > contribute to both projects, correct?).
A team is a group of people who work together, unlike Haze who just gets upset when people don't agree with his demands. Haze would still be on the MAME & Dumping union if he could work with others.
> No it is not like misfitMAME. UME plain and simple, is a single exe for MAME and MESS > with AFAIK the same compile flags as the two separate official compiles. > Why you present it as something else?
misfitMAME is a single exe with the same compile flags as the official compile. Both are unofficial builds, it sounds the same to me.
It's not universal unless it includes the misfitmame games.
> Oh dear ! You don't like the colors ?! > I just choose random phrase... ...like Upsetting Man's Ego, or Underground Mame > Emulator, or ... ...Never Listen Spammer...
Riiiight. Man you are really funny. I am laughing inside.
> > Nevertheless, this is my last response on this line, lest this go down the EXACT > same > > road the last few discussions have. > > To be fair, it generally goes OK until NLS shows up to white knight the bejesus out > of Lord Voldemort. Seriously, self-expression has never been one of that dude's > problems, there's no need to speak for him.
Ah. New man to blame, this guy NLS. I am useful then. Nice.
> A team is a group of people who work together, unlike Haze who just gets upset when > people don't agree with his demands. Haze would still be on the MAME & Dumping union > if he could work with others.
Maybe so. I am not a friend of Haze (or anybody here for that matter - pretty clear from the posts above) and I don't really care for his character. The thing is, my statement still goes: He maybe out because people don't like him for some (valid or invalid) reasons, but he is a "de facto" "part" of the team since he IS contributing and the team DOES use his work (and why not after all).
Again not going to the politics of things (which everybody here seems to deny but they are SOOO obviously present), maybe if you cut the guy some slack everything would be better.
I don't know.
> > No it is not like misfitMAME. UME plain and simple, is a single exe for MAME and > MESS > > with AFAIK the same compile flags as the two separate official compiles. > > Why you present it as something else? > > misfitMAME is a single exe with the same compile flags as the official compile. Both > are unofficial builds, it sounds the same to me.
Last time I checked misfitMAME supported games not enabled in MAME and did not support games enabled in MAME. I don't know if this has changed but doesn't look like default flags (or switches or how you guys that compile the thing call them).
Indeed both are unofficial builds.
> It's not universal unless it includes the misfitmame games.
Fair enough. Maybe he should enable them then. Then again maybe enabling them warranties it will not become mainstream? (because again of some claimed-non-political technicality) In that case it's fine as it is and call it whatever you like (we already saw some interesting takes above... eg. Unnecessary Memory Eater).
> Fair enough. Maybe he should enable them then. > Then again maybe enabling them warranties it will not become mainstream? (because > again of some claimed-non-political technicality) In that case it's fine as it is and > call it whatever you like (we already saw some interesting takes above... eg. > Unnecessary Memory Eater).
I did find it interesting you spoke about the project using the word "we"... representing yourself as a project spokesman. I would humbly suggest you argue less for this cause and spend your time enjoying the benefits that this merged build brings to you and others who choose to use it. This release announcement thread was made to inform and it's done that. It's time to stop. Lurking is so much more peaceful...
> Could someone please explain the benefit of using this combined build over the "old" > way of using a separate MAME\MESS build? Please & thank you
What would you think are the benefit? One compile, one executable.. two emulator's worth of content in one package. Quite a few people who use MAME already use MESS - so combining them makes sense, saves configuration time and should satisfy anyone who would want such an option. Lobbying for and or forcing this combined option upon each user of each emulator, on the other hand, would not be a wise decision. The users should decide for themselves and now, with the current source provided, they can.
> I did find it interesting you spoke about the project using the word "we"... > representing yourself as a project spokesman. I would humbly suggest you argue less > for this cause and spend your time enjoying the benefits that this merged build > brings to you and others who choose to use it. This release announcement thread was > made to inform and it's done that. It's time to stop. Lurking is so much more > peaceful...
Nonono... Not related to the project at all. If I used the word "we" (where???) it was a mistake.
Your suggestion is noted, but part of the fun for me, is exactly being an active member. Since I don't contribute as a dev (and cannot do it any more I believe). Not that it is simple to have to bear with all this bashing.
> but he is a "de facto" "part" of the team since he IS contributing
no the fact that he's contributing means only that he is an external contributor. being part of the team also means discuss with the others and accept critics when you do a mistake or when people disagree with you.
> > Could someone please explain the benefit of using this combined build over the > "old" > > way of using a separate MAME\MESS build? Please & thank you > > What would you think are the benefit? > One compile, one executable.. two emulator's worth of content in one package. Quite a > few people who use MAME already use MESS - so combining them makes sense, saves > configuration time and should satisfy anyone who would want such an option.
well, you can have both emus in the same directory and copy mame.ini into mess.ini, and voila' you get the same benefit. which is why I still don't buy this merged build as the miraculous event that some people claim it is...
but to each his own: there is no harm in having an additional choice.
> > but he is a "de facto" "part" of the team since he IS contributing > > no the fact that he's contributing means only that he is an external contributor. > being part of the team also means discuss with the others and accept critics when you > do a mistake or when people disagree with you.
Ah, ok.
Good that the team is a group of people that discuss with the others and accept critics when they do a mistake or when people disagree with them.
Exactly why I asked,I couldnt think of any and I was curious.Of course there is nothing wrong with another option for users to try out,and I suppose it could get more users to try out MESS,which is a good thing
Let's forget if there are benefits for a sec. Are there problems? Real problems I mean. Because in the last thread I didn't see any (I only saw a few attempts to present problems there were rather easily covered).
Actually don't answer please, if you believe there are real issues, so be it. "We believe you". (and by "we" I don't speak as part of the UME project - which I am not - I just speak as more than one person I know that share the same belief as me on this)
> > What would you think are the benefit? > > Exactly why I asked,I couldnt think of any and I was curious.Of course there is > nothing wrong with another option for users to try out,and I suppose it could get > more users to try out MESS,which is a good thing
You already mentioned one benefit, so I wonder how you say you couldn't think of any.
That because it was thought of after my first post asking if there were any benefits.
A few posts up you said forget about benefits,but dont you think talking about benefits would get more people to try it? Really if there is no benefit in using UME over using separate MAME\MESS builds,why bother? Thats why I asked in the first place
Why do you react to any opinion of UME short of orgasmic bliss as if it's a personal attack? For the many people who already have all the standalones (bsnes, UAE, Kega, NST, etc, etc) downloaded and configured through one of the front ends that lets you do that sort of thing UME does nothing for them except push them closer to their ISP's download cap and take up more disk space.
Well this benefits/problems discussion tends to lock threads.
I am sure people can think of benefits (users and devs). I am sure people can think of potential issues (I've seen all that were presented in the past easily answered but anyway).
Personally I think UME should be MAME. That's it, as simple as that. If there are benefits more than problems (or benefits without real problems), then... why not.
But let's not open this discussion just yet (with the above I just "recapped" a bit of what has been said in older threads). Let's let the dust of this whole thing settle. We'll see how it goes.
> > Let's not create another locked thread. > > Why do you react to any opinion of UME short of orgasmic bliss as if it's a personal > attack? For the many people who already have all the standalones (bsnes, UAE, Kega, > NST, etc, etc) downloaded and configured through one of the front ends that lets you > do that sort of thing UME does nothing for them except push them closer to their > ISP's download cap and take up more disk space.
I am one of them. I have all the separate standalone emulators that are better than current MESS (or MAME) in their respective systems. I have tried to hide them behind various front-ends that claim to do it nicely too (and most need more configuration than each separate emulator together - but that is another story).
That doesn't shadow MAME project or MESS project or the merge that I believe should eventually happen. To each their own. MAME and MESS (one thing in my mind anyway) is a magnificent project. I've known it since version 0.1, other times following the progress from closer other times from further away. I want it to progress. I personally see the merge as progress (and this was before Haze ever compiled his first merged public build). This is why I am so fanatic about it.
I would be less fanatic if someone convinced me why this is not a good thing for MAME. I would be less fanatic if I didn't see that at least some here, fight this EXACTLY because Haze said it. And believe me, I am not his friend, I don't even have his email or whatever (I just visit his blog) and I don't say this because he says so. I noticed it myself; you can even see it in this thread. To me if there is a real reason NOT to merge the projects (...EVENTUALLY, not saying now), it deserves NOT to be "because Haze thinks they should".
(on a different subject: are there still download caps on non-cellular Internet in 2012?)
> > > but he is a "de facto" "part" of the team since he IS contributing > > > > no the fact that he's contributing means only that he is an external contributor. > > being part of the team also means discuss with the others and accept critics when > you > > do a mistake or when people disagree with you. > > Ah, ok. > > Good that the team is a group of people that discuss with the others and accept > critics when they do a mistake or when people disagree with them. > > Keep it up team.
for the record, Haze is not the only one who asked [1] to be removed from the list because he was unable to interact fruitfully with the others.
> > > > but he is a "de facto" "part" of the team since he IS contributing > > > > > > no the fact that he's contributing means only that he is an external contributor. > > > being part of the team also means discuss with the others and accept critics when > > you > > > do a mistake or when people disagree with you. > > > > Ah, ok. > > > > Good that the team is a group of people that discuss with the others and accept > > critics when they do a mistake or when people disagree with them. > > > > Keep it up team. > > for the record, Haze is not the only one who asked [1] to be removed from the list > because he was unable to interact fruitfully with the others. > > [1] and notice "asked", not "was asked"...
I am sure. I wasn't there to know what happened. Maybe he is an a**hole. Haze is not the point. The point is if this thing is any good.
BTW note (speaking as someone that has been part of teams and has led teams) that you correctly say "unable to interact fruitfully" - stress on word "interact" (which is a "both ways" word).
> I would be less fanatic if I didn't see that at least some here, fight this EXACTLY > because Haze said it.
It only seems that way because Haze is the only one that causes so much controversy in public. Everyone else has discussions in private, because we can.
Nothing will change until he learns to discuss, listen & find better solutions, instead of scream, shout and dig his heals in.
> (I only saw a few attempts to present > problems there were rather easily covered). >
what you judge "easily covered" is not considered as such by others, as it was already said at least twice.
and you know what, the more I follow discussions about all this stuff, the more it seems just a brand and advertising move rather than anything which shall bring benefits to the project.
since I'm here for emulation and not for advertising (and I would contribute to the project even if it was called Super Home Interactive Theater instead of MAME or MESS or whatever), I don't care anymore about this
do you like to click on a single exe to get everything? just use UME can you live with clicking on two different exe depending you want arcades or the rest? just keep using separately MAME and MESS everyone is free to choose according to his preference and we are all happy...
> BTW note (speaking as someone that has been part of teams and has led teams) that you > correctly say "unable to interact fruitfully" - stress on word "interact" (which is a > "both ways" word).
He's just passive agressive. So he can scream and shout all he wants, but gets upset real quick if you disagree. He's like a high maintenance girlfriend, without any of the benefits.
> > I would be less fanatic if I didn't see that at least some here, fight this EXACTLY > > because Haze said it. > > It only seems that way because Haze is the only one that causes so much controversy > in public. Everyone else has discussions in private, because we can. > > Nothing will change until he learns to discuss, listen & find better solutions, > instead of scream, shout and dig his heals in.
Haze is not the issue. This is not a thread on if Haze should be back in the team or not (I don't think he asked to be back - I don't know). You don't say merge or no merge based on what Haze believes. It is just wrong. Also I don't see why an open source project must make such discussions in private. Sure there are private discussions "because you can", but exactly things of controversy is where the public (AND the devs outside "The Team") should get to talk about.
Nice (non) argument. I already said to me UME should be MAME. As simple as that. How can this be a brand and advertising move? (Haze you should pay me man... I seem to be your advertising agent now)
> > (I only saw a few attempts to present > > problems there were rather easily covered). > > > > what you judge "easily covered" is not considered as such by others, as it was > already said at least twice. > > and you know what, the more I follow discussions about all this stuff, the more it > seems just a brand and advertising move rather than anything which shall bring > benefits to the project. > > since I'm here for emulation and not for advertising (and I would contribute to the > project even if it was called Super Home Interactive Theater instead of MAME or MESS > or whatever), I don't care anymore about this > > do you like to click on a single exe to get everything? just use UME > can you live with clicking on two different exe depending you want arcades or the > rest? just keep using separately MAME and MESS > everyone is free to choose according to his preference and we are all happy... > > bye
> > BTW note (speaking as someone that has been part of teams and has led teams) that > you > > correctly say "unable to interact fruitfully" - stress on word "interact" (which is > a > > "both ways" word). > > He's just passive agressive. So he can scream and shout all he wants, but gets upset > real quick if you disagree. He's like a high maintenance girlfriend, without any of > the benefits.
Man I don't care about Haze's character. It is not the point.
Maybe he is the worse person to work with. Maybe not and the team has too many stubborn people as I think he believes from what I've read in his (public) posts. The point is if merging is any good. Turning this into a Haze discussion just leads me (as someone who reads this) to lean towards his "stubborn team" claims.
Again I don't care about this either way. I care if merge is on the table and if not, if there are any valid arguments for that. Things that your "private discussions" as a team have proven. In that case, do tell us please.
Which is actually my major point about UME. I've seen the discussion at Haze's blog where you and he browbeat etabeta into a pulp for suggesting there is any redeeming value to any of the MESS drivers. So I don't understand why you wish to force more people to use drivers you personally feel are sub-standard. (They aren't all, by the way, but I want people to have that choice and not just be forced into a one-UME-fits-all world).
Furthermore, Haze says the merger is to get the MESS people to work on MAME. So you want the creators of drivers you personally would never touch to work on a project where users generally agree the drivers are good?
> > The point is if merging is any good. > > Which is actually my major point about UME. I've seen the discussion at Haze's blog > where you and he browbeat etabeta into a pulp for suggesting there is any redeeming > value to any of the MESS drivers. So I don't understand why you wish to force more > people to use drivers you personally feel are sub-standard. (They aren't all, by the > way, but I want people to have that choice and not just be forced into a > one-UME-fits-all world). > > Furthermore, Haze says the merger is to get the MESS people to work on MAME. So you > want the creators of drivers you personally would never touch to work on a project > where users generally agree the drivers are good?
Both MAME and MESS have some great and some not so good drivers. That doesn't shadow the project(s), I said that before. The whole monster (I say this in a good way) that MAME-MESS project is, is something to display in a technology museum. Of course some drivers will suck more or less. It is an active project ain't it? The not-so-good drivers can only get better. Being there "rubbed in the face" of the users (and devs), might actually help towards that end.
Also I don't believe bringing MESS inside MAME will... make MAME worse. Also I don't tag MESS devs as bad (on the contrary) and MAME devs as good. Some are working in both (sub)projects anyway. To me as a user, emulating a coin-op has less "intricacies" than emulating a computer where thousands pieces of software by thousands of programmers over the years the system was active (and up to today for some systems), exploit every tiny hidden bit of its hardware. This makes for example C64 driver worse than VICE x64. Still this doesn't render C64 driver bad - just that it has way to go.
If UME exists or not, if MESS becomes what UME is now or not, if MESS keeps its separate (?) way or not, doesn't affect if I (or others) will still use WinVICE or WinUAE. I don't see the issue.
I find it hilarious that you have been registered since 2003 and yet all your posts are strictly about the merge topic or combining binaries, passionately arguing your points here and elsewhere.
Not 1 post about the appreciation of others work or the progress that has been made to the emulation/bugfixes etc.
So to sum things up, we have one Group of people that can't let go of UI, because it's what they have always been used to using even though many more superior solutions exist now.
Then we have another group that are demanding change by arguing for combined build.
Hilarious. I'm happy with enjoying the progress that is being made and enjoying the games and bugfixes
Oh I enjoy the project's progress fine. Already said so.
I really appreciate all the work done by the team AND others. I have done what I had to do (and could) at times (just not being vocal about that).
"Appreciate" <> "treat as God" (not argue with, believe everything is correct etc.) in my book.
Indeed is interesting (to me also) that after 9 years registered, I chose to speak just about this merge matter. Maybe it shows how much I believe it should be like that. I dunno. I've been known to disappear from fora for huge periods of time before (...wishful thinking eh?). Maybe after this thing settles I'll disappear again.
Anyway, I don't understand why I am to blame for something. Blame people that don't feel comfortable discussing an argument about a subject even *IN* the subject's own thread. It is a UME thread ain't it? You don't like it, go to the next topic.
> Then we will have a shitty forum. I don't know why it was moved. Just delete it or > move it back. No more forums, please.
I was kidding, not making a shitty forum. Just not sure what warrented a bin move, not a fan of pushing whole threads in here. I try to partial move in the extremely rare case I move something. Not sure where the hell it originated from, so not much to do at this point...
I think Tafoid is just getting settled into his mod position. Anyway my patience is running out so soon there won't be any dickheads around to make threads shitty in the first place.
> > Nice (non) argument. > > I already said to me UME should be MAME. As simple as that. > > How can this be a brand and advertising move? > > > You're a fucking > ASSHOLE
> I think Tafoid is just getting settled into his mod position. Anyway my patience is > running out so soon there won't be any dickheads around to make threads shitty in the > first place.
> I think Tafoid is just getting settled into his mod position. Anyway my patience is > running out so soon there won't be any dickheads around to make threads shitty in the > first place.
I was passing the trash.. it got passed to EmuChat from the News forum and passing it here seemed the next logical step. You are right, though, I probably should have up and deleted/locked it.
> I was passing the trash.. it got passed to EmuChat from the News forum and passing it > here seemed the next logical step. You are right, though, I probably should have up > and deleted/locked it.
Strange how every thread about unification turns into a shitfest and gets locked..
> > I think Tafoid is just getting settled into his mod position. Anyway my patience is > > running out so soon there won't be any dickheads around to make threads shitty in > the > > first place. > > I was passing the trash.. it got passed to EmuChat from the News forum and passing it > here seemed the next logical step. You are right, though, I probably should have up > and deleted/locked it.
TBH... I'm kinda tired of seeing locked threads. When I go back and look at all the ones that were locked, it all comes down to the same thing... fanboyism, and the inability to have real discussion or debate, and pretty much the same people doing it.
Constantly locking everything that spins out of control just looks bad on our part, and it really isn't solving anything, because the same topics keep gettiing locked.
I'd much rather warn and/or tempban repeat offenders to make them realize they need to get their shit in order.
> > > I think Tafoid is just getting settled into his mod position. Anyway my patience > is > > > running out so soon there won't be any dickheads around to make threads shitty in > > the > > > first place. > > > > I was passing the trash.. it got passed to EmuChat from the News forum and passing > it > > here seemed the next logical step. You are right, though, I probably should have up > > and deleted/locked it. > > TBH... I'm kinda tired of seeing locked threads. When I go back and look at all the > ones that were locked, it all comes down to the same thing... fanboyism, and the > inability to have real discussion or debate, and pretty much the same people doing > it. > > Constantly locking everything that spins out of control just looks bad on our part, > and it really isn't solving anything, because the same topics keep gettiing locked. > > I'd much rather warn and/or tempban repeat offenders to make them realize they need > to get their shit in order.
That was my reasoning in not locking it but rather moving it. In the Bin.. anything goes. The thread had outlasted everything EmuChat was designed to hold in my opinion. Multiple regulars were stirring the pot which I don't like to see at all.
My honest opinion? Let's stop locking threads and start dealing with repeat offenders. We've certainly got people who are INSTIGATING problems at a level where it's impossible to take it as anything less than deliberate.
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