or if there even is one. how do you rationalize and live your life with whatever you've accepted lies after death? have you decided?
i've got a long post/reply here with more details, but i kinda wanted to get the ball rolling. long story short, i've always kinda just assumed (on the backburner) the basic concept of a christian afterlife so i could live without having to think about it; but more and more lately, i've been toying with the concept of just absolute oblivion and it's keeping me up nights.
There is nothing after. All your rewards and punishments are meted out during your life.
Your only reason for living is to promote the advancement of the species, which as a whole exists for that same reason.
Ultimately, there is no purpose to any of it, so you can either contribute in some miniscule way to the Advance, which might be mixing genes, or helping someone else somewhere along the way do what they're doing, or you can GTFO.
funny, this came up on another message board just last week... and I posted my thoughts there... so copied and pasted:
Quote: Faith is funny... having faith means you believe in something that you can't prove... I was brought up Catholic, so I have that whole thing on me... and I do believe in God... and I think Jesus' teachings were great... I don't think that there is a man in the sky who's waiting around to damn me, or who is insecure and gets upset with me if I use his name in vain (or if I don't capitalize 'his' when typing about God)... but I do believe that there is something bigger than me that I can't really comprehend, or ever fully know... I call that 'God'.
I also believe in astrology to a degree... not in newspaper horoscopes, but in astrology as a way to understand different types of people and myself, relationships, etc... but there are other ways to understand different people... I don't know or really care to read enough about it to take it too seriously though... But I do enjoy Linda Goodman's books on the subject (what little I have actually read at least)... I also liked Carl Jung's personality types for that sort of thing... But I've never read too much into those either...
I also believe in reincarnation... but if I die and don't come back, and end up in some sort of afterlife/heaven, I think I'll be alright with it... or if I just completely cease to exist, I don't think I'm going to be upset with it... seeing as how I wouldn't exist to care...
Nobody knows what really happens after you die... but having faith one way or another doesn't hurt... but then again, I see atheism or whatever it's called now as just another belief system... you have yours, I have mine... potato, potahto...
I've read into Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, as well as different sects of Christianity... I haven't found any religion that actually jives with what I believe... Hinduism comes closest, and Christianity/Catholicism is what I was raised on... but there are things I disagree with in all of them... I mainly want to play music, be creative, love my family and friends, and try to not to cause pain to others... "not for the reward of Heaven or fear of hellfire." As long as I'm trying to make the right decisions and be 'good', that's good enough for me...
The topic was more about beliefs than specifically the afterlife... but in that respect I think that I probably indulge my creative self by writing songs and making recordings just in case it's absolute oblivion... that way I'll still be around after I'm gone...
I'd like to think that there is at least something after this...what that is exactly I don't claim to know, but I certainly don't believe in any religious type explanation of an afterlife.
I know I'd really like to see some of my friends and relatives again but I've accepted the fact that it may never be. I've decided instead to enjoy my family, friends, and the good times while I'm alive. Enjoy the real life instead of worrying about the afterlife.
I deal with my own "heaven" or "hell" on a daily basis dependent on my own decisions.
The ultimate question of life... basically "What is the meaning of life?"
The answer is 42.
It's human nature to try to apply meaning to things not understood... like dieties being upset causes earth quakes or draughts, or demonic possession causes seizures. As we progressed in human understanding, we replaced such superstitions with understanding, like tectonic plate movement causes Earth quakes, and neuronal miscoordination causing seizures. So what happens after we die? Aside from the observable physical bodily decay, everything else that people believe happens to them is based on testimony passed down from more primative peoples and cultures that proceded them.
So, depending upon which culture you were raised in, you may believe:
A. A soul goes to Heaven (or Hell), and our physical body decays. B. A soul is reincarnated (as a human, as a cow, as something else), and our physical body decays. C. Some other supernatural event occurs, and our physical body decays. D. Some other supernatural event occurs, and our physical body only appears to decay, but will rise again someday.
Edit: there is probably a few other variations on what happens to us after death, but the common theme among all of them is denial: denial of an absolute end, and the continuation of our consciousness in some form for infinity (which allows us to deny death and live on forever).
So when u call up that shrink in Beverly Hills U know the one - Dr Everything'll Be Alright Instead of asking him how much of your time is left Ask him how much of your mind, baby
I believe we have an essence, a spirit that will go on forever. If I were to die - where would I go? What would I see or experience? Would it be Judgement day? Would I be asleep in my grave until that day? Or would I have either experience as related by those that claim to have died (and came back to life) - to see Jesus, or a wonderful, beautiful place? Or would it be a dark, evil place to be tormented?
I don't see myself as worthy to go to a place like heaven. Yet, I don't do a lot of things that could be considered "sinful" by a lot of people... I'd say I see the foolishness in those things/activities, and the trouble they could cause me. Like drugs/alcohol can lead to dependence on those things as well as health problems. Sleeping around, Etc. etc.
I'm not saying I'm perfect. I have flaws, but I do regret when I do "sinful" things.... I know that's all part of living. If I had the Holy Spirit in my life to lead and direct me... Well, I still can't say I'd live a perfect life. I'm only human, and humans aren't perfect. God IS.
I have thought it would be wonderful to rid myself of this flesh (mortal body) and to be loosed from it's wants and desires. Hunger, lust, pain, anger... all the things that can be associated with simply being mortal.
Another thing I've thought of is how God must feel. He made us the way we are. So, in a way, it's like he's a bit responsible. And then I can understand how and why He would be so ready to forgive us... as well as Love us, unconditionally. Because he understands.
Do I have the 'Holy Spirit'? The thing that, according to my beliefs, would essentially grant my place in heaven, my name being written in the 'Book of Life'? I don't think I have it, But I do believe I have felt it... I feel as though I have been in the presence of God! It's like an overwhelming feeling of Love, like an electricity all over your body, and a flame in your very soul. I couldn't help but to have wept and laugh at the same time when that happened to me.
I can also say that I have also felt an intensely evil presence before. But only close to me, not on nor in me -as in possessed (Thank God). I think I had been doing some meditating around that time. Yet, I do see that particular event as a good thing - in a way. As if it were showing me I was in a dangerous place spiritually.
------------
Your remarks reminded me of an article I read on-line somewhere. It was about college students that declared themselves to be atheist, but when asked to think about a life after death - it made them feel better or more hopeful instead of there just being nothing when it was all over... As in; their life wouldn't have been all for nothing, and that there was something else to look forward to.
That can be comforting. But if anyone chooses to believe that or not - that's their choice. Yet, I wonder if when they can't believe it, would they still hope for it? Would they... Could they... long to be reconciled with their creator (if there ever was one)?
> or if there even is one. how do you rationalize and live your life with whatever > you've accepted lies after death? have you decided? > > i've got a long post/reply here with more details, but i kinda wanted to get the ball > rolling. long story short, i've always kinda just assumed (on the backburner) the > basic concept of a christian afterlife so i could live without having to think about > it; but more and more lately, i've been toying with the concept of just absolute > oblivion and it's keeping me up nights.
Same, mostly. The idea that you end...and that's it is actually a bit of a relief to me when I think about it, knowing that I won't have to answer for the misdeeds of my life.
Not that I feel it gives me carte blanche to be a total prick to everyone. I still try to be the best person I can be.
> or if there even is one. how do you rationalize and live your life with whatever > you've accepted lies after death? have you decided? > > i've got a long post/reply here with more details, but i kinda wanted to get the ball > rolling. long story short, i've always kinda just assumed (on the backburner) the > basic concept of a christian afterlife so i could live without having to think about > it; but more and more lately, i've been toying with the concept of just absolute > oblivion and it's keeping me up nights.
Children are our afterlife. All other self serving considerations of life beyond death are folly.
I used to think about things like this all the time. I was baptized Catholic, and raised for 9 years in a Lutheran school. I never could quite buy into the whole religion thing 100%. Years later I feel there could be some truth to some of it, in every religion out there.
One thing I do know for certain, we don't see things as they really are. The whole "Image you are a 2D being in a 3D world" exercise really opened my eyes in that regard.
One thing I don't know for certain, but strongly believe, is that your spirit DOES live on in some fashion. It could be a physical thing, or something as simple as other peoples brains wiring up a "remembrance" section of you due to the emotional trauma of loss.
I've had 2 times in my life where I without doubt should have died. One was a 'near car accident' where I spun 5 times through 3 lanes of rush hour traffic on a wet roadway @ 65mph. I should have hit a dozen cars EASY. I spun from the far let lane, to the far right shoulder, untouched. A couple of drivers stopped afterward to see if I was OK, and one used the words, "I can't believe what I just saw. Someone was looking out for you on that one."
He was right, IMO. I had a dream the night before, where I walked into my kitchen and saw a piece of paper on the counter. It was a death certificate with my name on it. As I looked up I filled with fear, and then I caught a glimpse of my great uncle who had passed 2 years earlier. The minute I saw him tears flowed so hard I had to look away. Each time I looked at him I was filled with what I can only describe as 'every emotion I have ever felt, all at once'. Looking away, I heard him speak. "I won't let this happen to you, it's not your time." I woke up soaked in tears.
That alone would have been enough to carry me a lifetime of believing in a spiritual afterlife of some kind, but it happened again a few years later with a different situation. Same deal, with a warning the night before.
I also just recently posted a story about being super late for work one morning, like something was keeping me from getting out the door until a certain time. I ended up helping out my brother that morning right when he needed someone most a few miles from anywhere I should have been that morning. It wasn't the most life changing moment, but enough to say it was a little more than chance that I was there.
Call it the result of divine intervention, call it my brain interpreting a sense I don't understand. Call it the result of quantum spin, call it whatever you want. I call it a pretty good hunch that there is ~something~ beyond what we perceive.
like in life,the afterlife is what you make of it.
I’m convinced Mario is a hobo.
He wakes up everyday in the same clothes, runs around in sewers, and collects coins for a living.
At the end of the day, he uses the coins to buy mushrooms
"One was a 'near car accident' where I spun 5 times through 3 lanes of rush hour traffic on a wet roadway @ 65mph. I should have hit a dozen cars EASY. I spun from the far let lane, to the far right shoulder, untouched."
Wasn't a wet road but I was in the far left, and started to change lanes the exact instant that I hit a pothole. The rest is just like yours.
And this was on I-5 going through L.A.
Just broke my personal record for number of consecutive days without dying!
>I've had 2 times in my life where I without doubt should have died.
>Call it the result of divine intervention...
I can recount a few nearly died times too. One that makes a point about divine guardians, though, is when an RPG missed my vehicle and hit the one behind me instead. Maybe someone was looking out for me, but then, how come no one was looking out for the vehicle behind mine? I hate to think one person's life is less worthy of divine love than another... but that's literally what that means, then. Just food for thought.
> I can recount a few nearly died times too. One that makes a point about divine > guardians, though, is when an RPG missed my vehicle and hit the one behind me > instead. Maybe someone was looking out for me, but then, how come no one was looking > out for the vehicle behind mine? I hate to think one person's life is less worthy of > divine love than another... but that's literally what that means, then. Just food for > thought.
That is a good question. But then again it is hard to see into others hearts. maybe they were ready, maybe they were so hardened in heart that there was no way of reaching them. again the choices we make affect all aspects of our lives. maybe you will or have touched someone who will affect the outcome of many. who knows, i don't. I know when my mother died at age 52 to me it was a waste, I was hurt and couldn't understand why her. She beleived in God, Christ, the bible and her life showed it. Again I asked why her? then at her funeral I couldn't beleive the people that showed up, standing room only. people crying, people distrate and it's at thet moment I understood something she had always tried to teach me, it wasn't the money or assets she left behind it was the poeple she touched, those she helped those that loved her and she loved and this church was full ot those people.
thru her beleif in christ and her beleifs in the bible she had died a very rich woman one with friends and "family" of all races, and walks of life.
the money she left behind could be counted and used to buy a good steak dinner is all but the people and love could not be measured, along with the respect and honor and love of her family who could now see the value of her beleifs while see lived.
> or if there even is one. how do you rationalize and live your life with whatever > you've accepted lies after death? have you decided? > > i've got a long post/reply here with more details, but i kinda wanted to get the ball > rolling. long story short, i've always kinda just assumed (on the backburner) the > basic concept of a christian afterlife so i could live without having to think about > it; but more and more lately, i've been toying with the concept of just absolute > oblivion and it's keeping me up nights.
To think and be self aware you need a brain, to see you need eyes, to feel you need sense receptors. Since they are all destroyed shortly after death I think any sentience beyond the meat is unlikely.
i have 2 opposing personalities that want to believe 2 different things; one that cannot comprehend oblivion or infinite death and therefore rely (either on religion, personal belief, or a mix) on the assumption of an afterlife to continue feeling alive, and one that can rationalize every piece of evidence, emotion or thought down to simply being a complex living organism. i grew up catholic, and married into a heavy pentecostal family. for years, i attended church 3 times a week, did bible studies, prayer shifts, etc. the cynic personality insists all of my experiences were just being part of an ant farm that is the human condition, and most people either aren't intelligent enough to understand themselves or simply don't challenge their beliefs through discomfort or judgement. i see how we all need a foundation of belief, unless we all should live in simple chaos.
i'm growing weary of hearing and seeing "god has a plan" to describe simple, random events. everything goes well, "god is good". something bad happens, "god has a plan". i've seen an entire church community pray together wholeheartedly, and in good faith and meaning, for Plan-A to happen. when Plan-B happened despite the prayer, "god had a plan". it still doesn't change the fact that you may feel completely in the right praying for Plan-A in the first place when it is proven against the will and plan of god time and time again. it seems pointless to care or pray or exert yourself because god might just "have a plan" that doesn't include anything you're doing, saying, thinking or feeling. i've been baptized twice under two different banners, and have followed the bible mostly for my life. i've had experiences and once was convinced that i was blessed by god and had the holy spirit. i've never done drugs. i've only ever had sex with my wife, and the first time was on our wedding night. i always feel indebted to help out and i feel awful if i don't give things my all. i've never been jealous of anybody, nor done something to somebody out of spite. if i'm not happy, i always blame myself and try harder. despite my yelling and seemingly chaotic personality here, i've tried to live 'good and honest' and i try to be good by people. yet, none of this good-doing of late has been of comfort, for i'm slipping slowly into a calculated state of worry that i'm following a manifestation of culture and psychological subjection to myself in the attempt to comfort what i cannot understand. i know i'm probably clinically insane by most standards; i have erratic thoughts and emotions that far exceed what are probably acceptable threshholds for social appliance, and should by all means be a prime candidate for pharmaceutical medication... so, i've also come to not believe that my emotions, good, bad, intense, subtle or otherwise are any indication of a divine presence. like some here, i have had unearthly feelings of intense evil, and conversely of intense love. but again, i've read and studied enough to know that all types of mental activity are subject to things (like low frequencies) and you can experience all sorts of supernatural things by simple chemical and physical stimuli or manipulation. in short terms, i have a reasonably well-documented and plausible/scientific "excuse" not to believe anything. for every single experiencable feeling, i think i have an answer, which becomes a problem.
i'm slowly becoming more and more convinced that nothing lies beyond our experience and time here as people. if there were empirical, concrete evidence of an afterlife, there would be little to no crime or hate. it would be unfathomable that the world would run and police itself as it does today if we were all certain that we were living a trial. it's why there's hundreds of religions and personal beliefs of faith, all differing. if i force myself to think cold-hearted and logically, i understand there's no escape. the possibility of infinity frustrates me... angers me... it seems a curse. i literally used to get scared shitless and get in freaked-out mental traps as a kid trying to understand that i was never cognizant before i was born (or that i do not have memory of it); that i wouldn't be sitting in the passenger seat of my mom's car going down the highway had they not conceived and birthed me. now at this stage in life, i have to ponder to opposing side of that non-existance; the end of it. it's not a puzzling concept, but *accepting* as the prime subject is something that gives me bouts of depression for long periods of time. it's like thinking the same word over and over until the mental re-iteration of that word is senseless and foreign. sometimes i have to justify being completely destroyed just to feel like i can sleep. like, so many kids die young, or people killed in war, or assassinated presidents; i'm no more special than they were and they're already dead and lived a less enjoyable or shorter life than i already have. it's somehow comforting to assume a sort of justice system where your death is natural and in-league with what's 'fair'. then i think, what if justice is just a biological evolution or concept, and there's true chaos? oh shit, what do i do? live like a rockstar? how would that ultimately matter? if you had to experience excruciating pain for 1 minute, but then immediately afterward, your memory of it got wiped away, would that experience matter? how? maybe believing in something just to mete out a happy existence on earth is worth it in itself. i numb myself incessantly with thoughts and ideas. also, i realize that if there is an afterlife, i will probably experience it unlike anything i can understand or even probably relate to. it's almost annoying to hear people describe an afterlife like they're doing it human bodies... seeing and hearing... feeling emotions that are chemical based. the light at the end of the tunnel, and out-of-body experiences... these could all be defense mechanisms or mixed conscious/subcon experiences of a brain and body turning off. sometimes i want to say that the cycle of pain and pleasure here on earth isn't worth taking a chance on anything else... that playing with my dog in the backyard on a fall evening while smelling somebody cooking hamburger in the distance is as happy as i want to be.
also there's the matter of what if there IS an afterlife, and i'm damaging myself in that existence by my pessimistic thoughts now? all of this is still scratching the surface, but i'll stop. there's no need in going overboard (my default). i overthink everything, but this afterlife idea is one that i don't easily toss away when i'm tired of thinking about it. i honestly wanted to start this thread just to get some opinions and details to dilute my consternation, and it really has helped hearing all of your stories and ideas (except triggerfin's plzplzmakethebadmanstop). sometimes i look at the guy ringing up my groceries and think 'we're fucked'... how are he and i existentially the same? maybe our souls are all just storm troopers or something... it's comforting to hear and interact with people whose opinions and intelligence you trust.
> I used to think about things like this all the time. I was baptized Catholic, and > raised for 9 years in a Lutheran school. I never could quite buy into the whole > religion thing 100%. Years later I feel there could be some truth to some of it, in > every religion out there. > > One thing I do know for certain, we don't see things as they really are. The whole > "Image you are a 2D being in a 3D world" exercise really opened my eyes in that > regard. > > One thing I don't know for certain, but strongly believe, is that your spirit DOES > live on in some fashion. It could be a physical thing, or something as simple as > other peoples brains wiring up a "remembrance" section of you due to the emotional > trauma of loss. > > I've had 2 times in my life where I without doubt should have died. One was a 'near > car accident' where I spun 5 times through 3 lanes of rush hour traffic on a wet > roadway @ 65mph. I should have hit a dozen cars EASY. I spun from the far let lane, > to the far right shoulder, untouched. A couple of drivers stopped afterward to see if > I was OK, and one used the words, "I can't believe what I just saw. Someone was > looking out for you on that one." > > He was right, IMO. I had a dream the night before, where I walked into my kitchen and > saw a piece of paper on the counter. It was a death certificate with my name on it. > As I looked up I filled with fear, and then I caught a glimpse of my great uncle who > had passed 2 years earlier. The minute I saw him tears flowed so hard I had to look > away. Each time I looked at him I was filled with what I can only describe as 'every > emotion I have ever felt, all at once'. Looking away, I heard him speak. "I won't let > this happen to you, it's not your time." I woke up soaked in tears. > > That alone would have been enough to carry me a lifetime of believing in a spiritual > afterlife of some kind, but it happened again a few years later with a different > situation. Same deal, with a warning the night before. > > > I also just recently posted a story about being super late for work one morning, like > something was keeping me from getting out the door until a certain time. I ended up > helping out my brother that morning right when he needed someone most a few miles > from anywhere I should have been that morning. It wasn't the most life changing > moment, but enough to say it was a little more than chance that I was there. > > Call it the result of divine intervention, call it my brain interpreting a sense I > don't understand. Call it the result of quantum spin, call it whatever you want. I > call it a pretty good hunch that there is ~something~ beyond what we perceive.
i agree on there being something beyond what we perceive, even the idea of a unified consciousness can make sense, but what compelling evidence is there that we will be a part of it?
as for near-death incidents, i thought the same thing at first. that it was exceptional and proof... but the more you talk around and open up, you realize that many people, millions, have had the same experience. at what point does your experience become not un-common and simply just a part of living?
if you throw enough apples in a wood-chipper, some of them will come out unscathed. do you say it's a miracle, or a product of massive numbers versus chance? from the apple's perspective it's a lifetime experience, profound and thought provoking... from the guy operating the wood-chippper, it's "dang, there's another apple that made it through". silly analogy yes, but the concept is the same.
i'm not at all trying to poo-poo your parade, but this is the type of objective thinking i've somehow gotten myself into.
I have psychic/paranormal experiences. I enjoy and am fascinated by them.
Your life is a matter of your flow. A combination of what you know, what and how you feel, how you move. Dynamic, and interactive, yet not....at least strictly....self-determined.
Complication often comes from conception of life.
Seeing into, or at least to, others' hearts comes from opening your own.
> i agree on there being something beyond what we perceive, even the idea of a unified > consciousness can make sense, but what compelling evidence is there that we will be a > part of it? even the idea of a unified consciousness can make sense.
No evidence, really. Sometimes you just have to follow your gut.
> as for near-death incidents, i thought the same thing at first. that it was > exceptional and proof... but the more you talk around and open up, you realize that > many people, millions, have had the same experience. at what point does your > experience become not un-common and simply just a part of living?
Kind-of my point as well. Maybe there ~IS~ something steering us, guiding us. Maybe it just seems unique and special when it happens because nobody really talks about it, or passes it off as silly hokum. Maybe the experiences would be the 'norm' if we were more aware of what causes them.
Everyone was certain the earth was flat for a while too...
> if you throw enough apples in a wood-chipper, some of them will come out unscathed. > do you say it's a miracle, or a product of massive numbers versus chance? from the > apple's perspective it's a lifetime experience, profound and thought provoking... > from the guy operating the wood-chippper, it's "dang, there's another apple that made > it through". silly analogy yes, but the concept is the same.
What if those apples were meant to survive. What if some 4th dimensional force that we can't quantify at this point needs those few apples to survive for some weird reason. What if ~we~ are the ones being tossed through an upper dimensional wood chipper...hell, what if the entire earth is actually an apple. Even more trippy, what if our solar system is just some random atom in a macroscopic molecule of cosmic "apple". We could all be quarks, or gluons or some shit...
> i'm not at all trying to poo-poo your parade, but this is the type of objective > thinking i've somehow gotten myself into.
No poo pooing seen. I know what I feel, and am open to any interpretation of it possible.
> i have 2 opposing personalities that want to believe 2 different things; one that > cannot comprehend oblivion or infinite death and therefore rely (either on religion, > personal belief, or a mix) on the assumption of an afterlife to continue feeling > alive, and one that can rationalize every piece of evidence, emotion or thought down > to simply being a complex living organism. i grew up catholic, and married into a > heavy pentecostal family. for years, i attended church 3 times a week, did bible > studies, prayer shifts, etc. the cynic personality insists all of my experiences were > just being part of an ant farm that is the human condition, and most people either > aren't intelligent enough to understand themselves or simply don't challenge their > beliefs through discomfort or judgement. i see how we all need a foundation of > belief, unless we all should live in simple chaos.
Yeah, nothing wrong with religion from a moral standpoint. Glues society together for some. More importantly, is she a read headed Pentecost ?
> > i'm growing weary of hearing and seeing "god has a plan" to describe simple, random > events. everything goes well, "god is good". something bad happens, "god has a plan". > i've seen an entire church community pray together wholeheartedly, and in good faith > and meaning, for Plan-A to happen. when Plan-B happened despite the prayer, "god had > a plan". it still doesn't change the fact that you may feel completely in the right > praying for Plan-A in the first place when it is proven against the will and plan of > god time and time again. it seems pointless to care or pray or exert yourself because > god might just "have a plan" that doesn't include anything you're doing, saying, > thinking or feeling. i've been baptized twice under two different banners, and have > followed the bible mostly for my life. i've had experiences and once was convinced > that i was blessed by god and had the holy spirit. i've never done drugs.
NEVER would have guessed the last part. Not ever. You seem like to much of a free spirit at times not to have at least dabbled.
> i've only > ever had sex with my wife, and the first time was on our wedding night. i always feel > indebted to help out and i feel awful if i don't give things my all. i've never been > jealous of anybody, nor done something to somebody out of spite. if i'm not happy, i > always blame myself and try harder. despite my yelling and seemingly chaotic > personality here, i've tried to live 'good and honest' and i try to be good by > people. yet, none of this good-doing of late has been of comfort, for i'm slipping > slowly into a calculated state of worry that i'm following a manifestation of culture > and psychological subjection to myself in the attempt to comfort what i cannot > understand. i know i'm probably clinically insane by most standards; i have erratic > thoughts and emotions that far exceed what are probably acceptable threshholds for > social appliance, and should by all means be a prime candidate for pharmaceutical > medication... so, i've also come to not believe that my emotions, good, bad, intense, > subtle or otherwise are any indication of a divine presence. like some here, i have > had unearthly feelings of intense evil, and conversely of intense love. but again, > i've read and studied enough to know that all types of mental activity are subject to > things (like low frequencies) and you can experience all sorts of supernatural things > by simple chemical and physical stimuli or manipulation. in short terms, i have a > reasonably well-documented and plausible/scientific "excuse" not to believe anything. > for every single experiencable feeling, i think i have an answer, which becomes a > problem. > > i'm slowly becoming more and more convinced that nothing lies beyond our experience > and time here as people. if there were empirical, concrete evidence of an afterlife, > there would be little to no crime or hate. it would be unfathomable that the world > would run and police itself as it does today if we were all certain that we were > living a trial. it's why there's hundreds of religions and personal beliefs of faith, > all differing. if i force myself to think cold-hearted and logically, i understand > there's no escape. the possibility of infinity frustrates me... angers me... it seems > a curse. i literally used to get scared shitless and get in freaked-out mental traps > as a kid trying to understand that i was never cognizant before i was born (or that i > do not have memory of it); that i wouldn't be sitting in the passenger seat of my > mom's car going down the highway had they not conceived and birthed me. now at this > stage in life, i have to ponder to opposing side of that non-existance; the end of > it. it's not a puzzling concept, but *accepting* as the prime subject is something > that gives me bouts of depression for long periods of time. it's like thinking the > same word over and over until the mental re-iteration of that word is senseless and > foreign. sometimes i have to justify be completely destroyed just to feel like i can > sleep. like, so many kids die young, or people killed in war, or assassinated > presidents; i'm no more special than they were and they're already dead and lived a > less enjoyable or shorter life than i already have. it's somehow comforting to assume > a sort of justice system where your death is natural and in-league with what's > 'fair'. then i think, what if justice is just a biological evolution or concept, and > there's true chaos? oh shit, what do i do? live like a rockstar? how would that > ultimately matter? if you had to experience excruciating pain for 1 minute, but then > immediately afterward, your memory of it got wiped away, would that experience > matter? how? maybe believing in something just to mete out a happy existence on earth > is worth it in itself. i numb myself incessantly with thoughts and ideas. also, i > realize that if there is an afterlife, i will probably experience it unlike anything > i can understand or even probably relate to. it's almost annoying to hear people > describe an afterlife like they're doing it human bodies... seeing and hearing... > feeling emotions that are chemical based. the light at the end of the tunnel, and > out-of-body experiences... these could all be defense mechanisms or mixed > conscious/subcon experiences of a brain and body turning off. sometimes i want to say > that the cycle of pain and pleasure here on earth isn't worth taking a chance on > anything else... that playing with my dog in the backyard on a fall evening while > smelling somebody cooking hamburger in the distance is as happy as i want to be. > > also there's the matter of what if there IS an afterlife, and i'm damaging myself in > that existence by my pessimistic thoughts now? all of this is still scratching the > surface, but i'll stop. there's no need in going overboard (my default). i overthink > everything, but this afterlife idea is one that i don't easily toss away when i'm > tired of thinking about it. i honestly wanted to start this thread just to get some > opinions and details to dilute my consternation, and it really has helped hearing all > of your stories and ideas (except triggerfin's plzplzmakethebadmanstop). sometimes i > look at the guy ringing up my groceries and think 'we're fucked'... how are he and i > existentially the same? maybe our souls are all just storm troopers or something... > it's comforting to hear and interact with people whose opinions and intelligence you > trust. > > thanks guys
The thoughts are all good and valid, but it's a lot to expect from yourself as far as finding an answer. I think about a lot of it too, but I find peace afterwards in one simple statement..."Enjoy life while you can." Let your gut, the moral compass you've developed for yourself all these years make the decisions for you. If partying like a rockstar is what will make you happy, go for it. If you feel remorseful or guilty in that action, you aren't enjoying it...so don't do it. Be who you are. You may not know who that is at times, but your conscious...your "soul"...always does. You will make bad choices. You will do things that any deity you may believe in won't like. If he can't forgive you, he's a shitty deity..... If there is no heaven, this is all we got. Enjoy it.
Alcohol is a drug, and it gets you as fucked up or more than 99% of the other drugs out there if you drink enough. I'd be hard pressed to think of another drug that potentially makes you lose as much control. Maybe coke but that only makes you lose control of being able to shut your mouth lol.
> Alcohol is a drug, and it gets you as fucked up or more than 99% of the other drugs > out there if you drink enough. I'd be hard pressed to think of another drug that > potentially makes you lose as much control. Maybe coke but that only makes you lose > control of being able to shut your mouth lol.
yeh, i didn't really start drinking until mid-20's, and i still do, but i'm passed feeling guilty or thinking that it's a desecration. i've never done anything harder than alcohol, but the way things are now, i'd probably do most anything...
If you get wasted, there's hardly anything "harder" than alcohol. I drank my first time at like 12 or 13, still remember it vividly. I was at a party with my family and my dad let me have a little bit of vodka in Sprite and was like that's it, don't ask for more etc. I ended up sneaking drink after drink when people weren't looking and puked on the lawn later in the night. Hahaha. Anyway, other than weed and alcohol which were mainstays even around the goodie-googie girl crews at my high school by senior year, I was similar to you, told myself I'd never do "hard" drugs. The only reason I ever tried them is alcohol. It's just like eating shitty food or having sex with a girl you normally wouldn't, alcohol impairs your control/judgement. People say weed is the gateway drug, not at all. I'd never experiment with a new drug on weed ever or hook up with someone I normally wouldn't.
> If you get wasted, there's hardly anything "harder" than alcohol. I drank my first > time at like 12 or 13, still remember it vividly. I was at a party with my family and > my dad let me have a little bit of vodka in Sprite and was like that's it, don't ask > for more etc. I ended up sneaking drink after drink when people weren't looking and > puked on the lawn later in the night. Hahaha. Anyway, other than weed and alcohol > which were mainstays even around the goodie-googie girl crews at my high school by > senior year, I was similar to you, told myself I'd never do "hard" drugs. The only > reason I ever tried them is alcohol. It's just like eating shitty food or having sex > with a girl you normally wouldn't, alcohol impairs your control/judgement. People say > weed is the gateway drug, not at all. I'd never experiment with a new drug on weed > ever or hook up with someone I normally wouldn't.
All the internal conflict you mention regarding life, religion and existentialism bring me to a thought...
Ying/yang. Trite, but right on the money.
The balance and peace from harmony with the universe. Much of your conflict you suffer you are creating by trying to subjugate your universe to your constraints of understanding.
Sometimes, life is like being in quicksand, instead of struggling, which worsens the situation, what we really need to do is relax and accept the situation, and in achieving that peaceful state, the situation improves.
Take up a book on philosophical Tao, and to some extent Confucianism. Not a "history of", but a "philosophy of" book. It's non-denominational, so the philosophy doesn't contradict whatever religious beliefs you have, but may be eye opening and help you find balance in your spiritual life as well. Consider that sometimes, through inaction, we are our most powerful. Sometimes, in silence, we are our most convincing. Perhaps, to find the answers you seek, you first must stop searching.
Hahaha. You should probably try weed though I think. A few times because the first couple of times can be either too strong to enjoy or no reaction at all. You might not like it, but it might be just the thing. It is for a lot of people.
> Hahaha. You should probably try weed though I think. A few times because the first > couple of times can be either too strong to enjoy or no reaction at all. You might > not like it, but it might be just the thing. It is for a lot of people.
my brother kinda stays baked... but that's all he does. so, i've always been cautious.
So you already have a connection! J/K. Half kidding. But yeah that can be a problem, not to mention the money it costs. And related, dulling your motivation for certain things, can happen. But you're already married and I assume you have a good job. I think it might be time for you young Padawan learner. I hear ya though. It can kinda make a lot of things more fun and a lot of things you'd rather not do on it, and like broheim has shown, hard for a lot of people to find a balance. Well it's hard as shit to balance alcohol, too. Anyway if you try something else it should be weed as described in very small doses to start.
I don't know if there is an afterlife, or a supreme being. I'm very much a "see it with my own eyes" kind of person.
I honestly can't imagine a deity with less compassion than I myself have so I don't worry about it much. I figure that the afterlife will either be an improvement or not exist at all. I black out with sleep almost every night so I'm quite familiar with oblivion, it doesn't scare me.
All the same though, I would like to live as many days on this beautiful, fucked up little planet as I can. There is a balance, as much as I hate to admit to such a cliche. Every day humanity displays its worst. And its best. World peace is NOT happening in our lifetime so just let go of that unobtainable standard right now. What IS possible is better. We can make the world a better place. If there is an afterlife, yay, we've scored points. If there isn't one, we've made a difference where it actually counted. Win/Win.
I don't see why people are worried about there not being a life after death. You fall asleep every night and slip into unconsciousness without going into blind panic so why the concerned bout losing consciousness when you die? The only difference is that you don't regain consciousness.
You live you die, end of story.
The only evidence for "life after death" (and for that matter life before birth) is the fact that every atom in your body existed somewhere else in the universe before it came to be part of your body. Every atom in your body will continue to exist in the universe after you die which for me is far cooler than any man made afterlife story.
> ... and I live my life on that basis. > > I don't see why people are worried about there not being a life after death. You fall > asleep every night and slip into unconsciousness without going into blind panic so > why the concerned bout losing consciousness when you die? The only difference is that > you don't regain consciousness. > > You live you die, end of story.
that's actually somewhat of a comforting comparison. the only panicky part about it is you can live peacefully knowing you'll awake. if you knew for certain that you were going to get killed in an accident 1 week from now, i guarantee you that these ideas would occupy a healthy portion of that remaining week. and i say that knowing full well that one day i'll be chipper and i won't give two shits and i'll laugh and say, "man, i was in a rut. fucking dying, i ain't afraid. i love sunlight." but, yeh, i'm in a rut. it's a little reassuring just knowing that.
my problem is, i have always been someone that has to mentally defeat something before i can challenge it; before i contest, i have to live it over and over in my head like a movie with a different plot, a different outcome, and a different challenge each time. it's probably not a healthy habit, but i often let myself daydream and run through the emotions of losing loved ones, being physically disabled, killing an intruder during the night and dealing with the aftermath, and other retarded shit like that. it seems that i just have some fundamental issues dealing with things that have unknown variables. it rips me apart. it waxes and wanes, but when it's all i can think about, i cannot reason anything being of higher priority. when i go on trips like this, i literally walk through weeks and weeks like a zombie... everything is meaningless. i know i'll come around, but i won't forget how much i logically prioritized this concept - it won't go away, it'll just be on the backburner.
> The only evidence for "life after death" (and for that matter life before birth) is > the fact that every atom in your body existed somewhere else in the universe before > it came to be part of your body. Every atom in your body will continue to exist in > the universe after you die which for me is far cooler than any man made afterlife > story.
so you haven't seen the studies and observation on atom phasing? also, it's now a pretty common theory that everything observable in our universe is only a fraction of the matter that should be there? (dark matter)
Rob is an evangelical christian pastor in Grand Rapids Michigan. I have no idea what your religious background is, but I've really enjoyed this book. I first wanted to read it after the reading about these christian bloggers and pastors calling him a "heretic" and his theology "universalism." That was enough right there to make me run to the library to check it out!
I personally beleive there is a heaven and a hell. I beleive according to the bible. I beleive that we "see" what we want to "see". If we choose not to beleive then we can't be surprised when we see no evidence of that in our lives. Some who claim to be open minded are some of the closed minded people I have ever met. THe old pasage in the bible I think makes the perfect point and I feel it is 100% accurate. Lazuras the begger died and went to heaven and looked down and seen a rich man that passed him every day and the rich man asked God to allow his family to know and God replied it wouldn't matter whether the rich man returned to earth to warn them they still wouldn't beleive.
I have seen things that I would have never seen or experianced had I not been willing to open both my mind and heart. amazingly so have others around me and those that don't beleive in any thing after death or a greater power are the first to run, I've had them literaly state "don't want to kno I'm out of here" and basically run away while those that did beleive are more apt to say "what the heck? lets check this out". Again the heart follows the mind so if one refuses to see they will never be dissappointed and never see such great things that are past our persecption of this wourld..
I don't know why, but now I have that darn "Zaccius was a wee little man" song stuck in my head. Time to drowned out my religious upbringing with some Grateful Dead...
> I personally beleive there is a heaven and a hell. I beleive according to > the bible. I beleive that we "see" what we want to "see". If we choose > not to beleive then we can't be surprised when we see no evidence of that > in our lives. Some who claim to be open minded are some of the closed minded > people I have ever met. THe old pasage in the bible I think makes the > perfect point and I feel it is 100% accurate. Lazuras the begger died and > went to heaven and looked down and seen a rich man that passed him every day > and the rich man asked God to allow his family to know and God replied > it wouldn't matter whether the rich man returned to earth to warn them they > still wouldn't beleive. > > I have seen things that I would have never seen or experianced had I not been > willing to open both my mind and heart. amazingly so have others around me and > those that don't beleive in any thing after death or a greater power are the > first to run, I've had them literaly state "don't want to kno I'm out of here" > and basically run away while those that did beleive are more apt to say "what the > heck? lets check this out". Again the heart follows the mind so if one refuses to > see they will never be dissappointed and never see such great things that are > past our persecption of this wourld..
> I don't know why, but now I have that darn "Zaccius was a wee little man" song stuck > in my head. Time to drowned out my religious upbringing with some Grateful Dead... > > > > I personally beleive there is a heaven and a hell. I beleive according to > > the bible. I beleive that we "see" what we want to "see". If we choose > > not to beleive then we can't be surprised when we see no evidence of that > > in our lives. Some who claim to be open minded are some of the closed minded > > people I have ever met. THe old pasage in the bible I think makes the > > perfect point and I feel it is 100% accurate. Lazuras the begger died and > > went to heaven and looked down and seen a rich man that passed him every day > > and the rich man asked God to allow his family to know and God replied > > it wouldn't matter whether the rich man returned to earth to warn them they > > still wouldn't beleive. > > > > I have seen things that I would have never seen or experianced had I not been > > willing to open both my mind and heart. amazingly so have others around me and > > those that don't beleive in any thing after death or a greater power are the > > first to run, I've had them literaly state "don't want to kno I'm out of here" > > and basically run away while those that did beleive are more apt to say "what the > > heck? lets check this out". Again the heart follows the mind so if one refuses to > > see they will never be dissappointed and never see such great things that are > > past our persecption of this wourld..
I'm with Bill Maher, probably one of the smartest people on the planet right now. At least when it comes to seeing things how they are. If we as a civilisation want to advance we have to rid ourselves of ancient rites and bs stories about long-haired hippies walking on water...
Yes, I am against religion. I am not however against religious people. Whatever makes you a good man. If you are good man because you believe there is a God and you will go to heaven by doing good deeds: perfect, congratulations, it's all good with me.
The problem is when people start claiming that what they believe is the truth, or the one truth, or the only truth. Because let's face it, you don't know. No one knows, even the freaking Pope doesn't know. And it is probably a pretty safe bet to say if you did know you'd probably not right here right now... So don't give me any bollocks about space daddy watching us.
But again, if it makes a good man, it's all good with me. Because if you're an ass then I don't care if you're an ass because you're a Muslim, or christian, or a Buddhist. You're an ass ... point.
I could go on for ever, you get my point Personally I can live very well with the fact knowing that I'll get eaten by worms and that I am an absolutely insignificant grain of nothing in a huge universe.
The most spiritual I will probably get is that I admit: I could imagine there being some sort of energy being built up during the course of our lives. And as with all energy, it simply turns into another form of energy, it never disappears. But that's about as far as I would go...
Long thread, this one will probably stick around for a couple of decades
> I'm with Bill Maher, probably one of the smartest people on the planet right now. At > least when it comes to seeing things how they are. If we as a civilisation want to > advance we have to rid ourselves of ancient rites and bs stories about long-haired > hippies walking on water... > > Yes, I am against religion. I am not however against religious people. Whatever makes > you a good man. If you are good man because you believe there is a God and you will > go to heaven by doing good deeds: perfect, congratulations, it's all good with me. > > The problem is when people start claiming that what they believe is the truth, or the > one truth, or the only truth. Because let's face it, you don't know. No one knows, > even the freaking Pope doesn't know. And it is probably a pretty safe bet to say if > you did know you'd probably not right here right now... So don't give me any bollocks > about space daddy watching us. > > But again, if it makes a good man, it's all good with me. Because if you're an ass > then I don't care if you're an ass because you're a Muslim, or christian, or a > Buddhist. You're an ass ... point. > > I could go on for ever, you get my point Personally I can live very well with the > fact knowing that I'll get eaten by worms and that I am an absolutely insignificant > grain of nothing in a huge universe. > > The most spiritual I will probably get is that I admit: I could imagine there being > some sort of energy being built up during the course of our lives. And as with all > energy, it simply turns into another form of energy, it never disappears. But that's > about as far as I would go... > > Long thread, this one will probably stick around for a couple of decades > > KC
You speak of the difference between Religion and Faith, and you do so very eloquently.
> > > More importantly, is she a read headed Pentecost ? > > > > ...with hair down to or past her hips? > > that's a funny way of asking whether the carpet matches the drapes.
Ha. No. I was pretty much raised in a Pentecostal church, and my dad is a pastor. Eh, but anyway.... I only made that remark because a lot of the women/girls that went to my church -most of the time- they had pretty long hair. As well as wearing long dresses, but that's besides the point.
:-/
eta: I might as well mention... I've never got SO into it like you see (or hear about of) about the stereotypical pentecostal church. I guess I've just got a shy/timid nature about me.
edit2: I did have this on my mind... I wasn't sure where I could reply so it might as well be here. It's not directed to anyone specific.
I think someone mentioned just following your heart, doing what you think is right, etc.
Well, study God's word, let it fill your heart, then your heart will lead you the right way. Pray more to feel a closer relationship with God, and don't (forsake the assembling...) eh, don't miss church. We're social creatures, and this unifying activity can help our faith grow stronger.
I guess what I'm wanting to get across is - if you're worried about what will happen when you die... Is there something else that makes you worry about dying? Perhaps you know deep down inside you're not really right with God, you're not up to the standard of holiness that he would have you to be. I can apply this to myself as well.
> I could go on for ever, you get my point Personally I can live very well with the > fact knowing that I'll get eaten by worms and that I am an absolutely insignificant > grain of nothing in a huge universe.
> or if there even is one. how do you rationalize and live your life with whatever > you've accepted lies after death? have you decided? > > i've got a long post/reply here with more details, but i kinda wanted to get the ball > rolling. long story short, i've always kinda just assumed (on the backburner) the > basic concept of a christian afterlife so i could live without having to think about > it; but more and more lately, i've been toying with the concept of just absolute > oblivion and it's keeping me up nights.
I'm not a religious man, but I believe in a life after death. For those of us that are generally good people and we don't purposely do bad things, when we die we go to a place where you can't get hurt, you aren't lonely, bad things don't happen, and your best days in life are constantly repeated. If you are bad, you are reincarnated and have to live on Earth as we know it. As a person who is alive, we have to worry about being alone, getting hurt, worrying about dying, worrying about injury, worrying about loss, etc. Being alive and being mortal is hell as it is, so an eternity of that is waiting those who are just downright bad people.
Index 
Threaded 
what's your take on the afterlife
Reply
[Re: 
If there is no heaven, this is all we got. Enjoy it.
No. I was pretty much raised in a Pentecostal church, and my dad is a pastor. Eh, but anyway.... I only made that remark because a lot of the women/girls that went to my church -most of the time- they had pretty long hair. As well as wearing long dresses, but that's besides the point.
