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krick
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Seven Deadly Innocent Frauds of Economic Policy
#251444 - 04/10/11 05:48 PM


If you have time, check out this free PDF book.

I know, reading's not fun. However, it's short (117 pages) and so interesting that it doesn't take long. I read the whole thing in about an hour.

I don't know if he's right or wrong, but he sure raises some questions that really make you think about the "big picture" and how things really work with the economy.


SEVEN DEADLY INNOCENT FRAUDS OF ECONOMIC POLICY
by WARREN MOSLER

http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Quote:


Seven Deadly Innocent Frauds of Economic Policy

1. The government must raise funds through taxation or borrowing in order to spend. In other words, government spending is limited by its ability to tax or borrow.
2. With government deficits, we are leaving our debt burden to our children.
3. Government budget deficits take away savings.
4. Social Security is broken.
5. The trade deficit is an unsustainable imbalance that takes away jobs and output.
6. We need savings to provide the funds for investment.
7. It’s a bad thing that higher deficits today mean higher taxes tomorrow.





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You read it? new [Re: krick]
#251449 - 04/10/11 07:50 PM


In explaining why the government doesn't need taxes or borrowing to spend money:

Quote:


Let's start by looking at what happens if you pay your taxes by writing a check. When the US government gets your check, and it's depositied and "clears," all the government does is change the number in your checking account "downward" as they subtract the amount of your check from your bank balance. Does the governemnt actually get anything real to give to someone else? No, it's not like there's a gold coin to spend. You can actaully see this happen with online banking - watch the balance in your bank account on your computer screen. Suppose the balance in your account is $5,000 and you write a check to the government for $2,000. When that check clears (gets processed), what happens? The 5 turns into a 3 and your new balance is now down to $3,000. All before your very eyes! The government didn't actually "get" anything to give to someone else.

...

Can you see now why it makes no sense at all to think that the government has to get money by taxing in order to get money to spend? In no case does it actually "get" anything that it subsequently "uses."






So that's why the government doesn't need my taxes, or to borrow money... all they need to do is change numbers in their accounts, and they can spend indefinitely. Holy CRAP! This guy is fucking funny as hell! He should be on the stand-up comedy tour bus! So all I need to do to be a millionaire is change a couple numbers in my bank account! Fuck yeah! It's so damn simple, why didn't I think of that!



I couldn't bring myself to read the rest of the article without peeing my pants. His argument is just one step removed from trading a child two pennies for one quarter, and telling the child they have twice as much now. Sadly, however, this is why the price of precious metals is through the roof and our currency is being devalued to the brink of a currency collapse, because the government is doing just that... creating more money by just changing numbers in their account instead of raising actually money, which isn't very funny at all.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, I'm not laughing at you... I'm laughing at him. I've never seen anyone try to spell it all out like as if it makes sense, totally ignoring the fact that "intangible" doesn't mean "not real". Those "numbers" they are changing in the bank accounts actually represent a "REAL" asset, despite his claim they don't.

Edited by Gatinho (04/10/11 07:55 PM)







krick
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Re: You read it? new [Re: GatKong]
#251450 - 04/10/11 08:15 PM


You really need to read the whole thing.

Our currency isn't backed by tangible assets like gold anymore.
Once we dropped the gold standard, the rules changed.



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Hey Kick, can you let me have $50,000? new [Re: krick]
#251454 - 04/10/11 11:11 PM


Just move some numbers from your bank account to mine... you won't miss it... they are only numbers.

> You really need to read the whole thing.
>
> Our currency isn't backed by tangible assets like gold anymore. Once we dropped the gold standard, the rules changed.

OMG, that was soooo painful to read, because the entire thing hinges on the single false assumption that the US dollar is imaginary, and the government merely needs to change numbers in a bank account to pay for stuff.

Again, "intangible" doesn't mean "not real". Each US dollar, while not backed by a tangible asset like gold, is Fiat Currency... backed by the intangible "assets and good will" of its issuing country. The value of gold rises and falls, and likewise, the "assets and faith" of the United States rises and falls. They used to be linked, but now they are independent, but each no less real than they were before. Doubling the amount of circulating notes will necessarily devalue each note by about half, no different than if it is backed by a tangible asset like gold, or backed by an intangible asset like the "assets and faith" of the US people.

How do we pay off China's trillions in dollars of loans? Well, he says it's simple:

Quote:


dollars and US Treasury debt (securities) are nothing more than "accounts," which are nothing more than numbers that the government makes on its own books... We remove those dollars from their savings account at the Fed and add them to their checking account at the Fed, and wait for them to say what, if anything, they might want to do next.




I'll tell you what they would say next... that the US dollar is worthless, and stop accepting the bullshit US dollar under that imaginary system, and our dollar would collapse, and our country would suffer an economic collapse like Zimbobway, Greece, and many other countries that tried that same BS. It's not monopoly money... it's not pretend currency.

(Edit: that's not just my guess what China would say... it's what they did say when the US tried just that, see the AP quote)

A quote from the AP

Quote:


The US Federal Reserve's policy of printing money to buy Treasury debt threatens to set off a serious decline of the dollar and compel China to redesign its foreign reserve policy, according to a top member of the Communist hierarchy.




It's lunacy... which is why you posted it here, in the Looney Bin, where it belongs.

As I previously stated "Sadly, however, this is why the price of precious metals is through the roof and our currency is being devalued to the brink of a currency collapse, because the government is doing just that... creating more money by just changing numbers in their account instead of raising actually money, which isn't very funny at all."



Why do you think that paper doesn't even get to it's substance until page 9? Because, just like a work of fiction first must help the reader "suspend disbelief" in order to accept the story, so to does this fairy tale spend most of the first eight pages on testimonials and praise trying to help you suspend disbelief and accept this fantasy as reality.

(Edit: ok, I'm being overly harsh here. Don't mean to be mean. But it is just that kind of thinking that pervades Washington right now... which is spiraling up our debt and printing more money devaluing our currency.)



Edited by Gatinho (04/11/11 01:36 AM)







Vas Crabb
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Re: You read it? new [Re: GatKong]
#251458 - 04/10/11 11:58 PM


> Sadly, however, this is why the
> price of precious metals is through the roof and our currency is being devalued to
> the brink of a currency collapse, because the government is doing just that...
> creating more money by just changing numbers in their account instead of raising
> actually money, which isn't very funny at all.

As I said before, if you quote gold in CHF or AUD rather than a currency that's tanking, it still hasn't regained its pre-GFC peak. Gold only looks ridiculously high because it's quoted in USD.



lharms
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Re: Hey Kick, can you let me have $50,000? new [Re: GatKong]
#251460 - 04/11/11 12:08 AM


I would be careful putting too much weight into gold/silver.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703399204576108463818702014.html

The 1920s rules that were enacted to protect people from cornering the market with very little in funds was never put back into place.

Quite literally these guys are buying 100 dollars worth of stuff with 1-10 bucks. This in itself creates a large demand that is not really there bumping up the price.

That housing bubble and .com money did not just disappear (and they didnt have much skin in the game in the first place). It went into different 'safe' markets. The gov did this to enable 'faster cheaper loans' to enable 'everyone to own a home'. The traders then went overboard with it (just as they did in the 20s). The idea was 'risky loans' balanced by 'safe commodity bets'.

Now on the other side of the coin. The fed is printing money. LOTS of money. That is inflationary. You will see it in other commodities pretty soon if not already. But also keep in mind these dudes are gaming the commodity market. So it is hard to tell what the real effect of all this extra cash will be as it is being amplified by the traders.

I skimmed the first 20 or so pages. Talk about inflation. Whoa... Your analysis is about spot on. The thing most people do not realize is money has no value. It is what I can get with that money that has value. Create more of it does have many implications though.

Best example is buying a house. Over time the price goes up and down. But lets say I sell my house today. I take the money and do what with it? Buy another house (need a place to live and all). I am going to end up with about the same amount of house (if I stay in the area). No matter how much money I make or lose on it.

Now the people who loaned me the money to buy the house are *VERY* interested in inflation. They are very interested because they have loaned me effectively cash. As inflation erodes the value of their loan (the main reason they charge me an interest rate). If the interest rate is not high enough the bank 'gets the shaft' as it were. It is why they charge way more than what inflation is. Now if inflation is higher than your interest rate you would see many banks hyperventilating. Deflation just flips it around and you end up 'getting the shaft' on a loan. It is why the US gov is very careful to make sure there is some sort of inflation (they have huge loans). It is also why you see the Fed keeping tight reign on interest rates (as they are bankers and do not want it going up too fast). I will leave it as an exercise why the banks do not want deflation (hint they own part of your house).



Matty_
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Re: You read it? new [Re: krick]
#251462 - 04/11/11 12:56 AM


> Our currency isn't backed by tangible assets like gold anymore.
> Once we dropped the gold standard, the rules changed.

And that's exactly why the government must levy tax - it gives the currency value. Now that the USD isn't based on a gold standard, the only way to give it value is to create demand for it. The US government does that by levying taxes that must be paid in USD - this creates a situation where the USD has value because it's the only thing that can be used to pay US taxes.



dfrance
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I remember learning the US Dollar is actually... new [Re: krick]
#251463 - 04/11/11 01:28 AM


... called "Fiat" money, based on the Fiat Multipla I think (one of the 50 worst cars - or so sez the Internet). The reasons why are all a bit fuzzy...I was usually baked when I went to my Economics class, and I'm too busy drinking now to Google it...

All I know is, unless I show up to work tomorrow, I won't get numbers added to my bank account, which the mortgage company will then reduce. And if the mortgage company reduces those numbers, and the number becomes a negative number, I get a letter with words that say I need to move out. No one actually tells me to get out, and no one will actually see me move out, so in theory I could just stay here and TELL them I moved out.

...this is getting too detailed...back to my beer...I need to think this through a bit more...staying home tomorrow suddenly seems more attractive...



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S&P downgrades US debt from "stable" to "negative" new [Re: krick]
#252318 - 04/20/11 05:45 PM


Strange, the biggest news of the week, and not one story on CNN website about it in three days.


Quote:


Standard & Poor's Ratings Service sent shock waves through economic and political circles Monday when it lowered its outlook for U.S. debt from "stable" to "negative." Though it kept U.S. credit ratings steady, the agency warned that political deadlock could compel it to downgrade Washington's rating in just a couple years.








Quote:


President Obama Faces Heavy Lift in Downplaying U.S. Credit Warning.

The S&P announcement was in large part a political judgment -- the ratings agency based its assessment on the sentiment that a budget agreement addressing the country's long-term deficit and debt problem might not be reached until after the 2012 election. The Obama administration claims the atmosphere for consensus is better than S&P predicts.




Basically, S&P heard Obama's speech and heard the democratic deficit plan, and realized there is no political will to ACTUALLY do anything meaningful to fuix the debt. Ryan's plan may not be popular, but the only way out of this mess is to abandon the idea that the US dollar is imaginary, quit printing free money, and get serious about undoing all that mess.

I'm not blaming just Dems and Obama. Bush, the 90's Republicans, and the last 30 years of pretending like the US currency was endless got us into it, and it's going to "hurt" to get us out.







Gor
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Re: S&P downgrades US debt from "stable" to "negative" new [Re: GatKong]
#252323 - 04/20/11 06:18 PM


> Strange, the biggest news of the week, and not one story on CNN website about it in
> three days.
>

Found it. Click on Business on the main page, then Economy. I think at this point it's being pushed down in importance on the site by more recent reports.



Oh for Pete's sake.
loser.com



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Re: S&P downgrades US debt from "stable" to "negative" new [Re: Gor]
#252343 - 04/20/11 08:29 PM


> Found it. Click on Business on the main page, then Economy.

I know! Isn't that insane? That should be front page news.

CNN writes

Quote:


President Obama unveiled a proposal last week to cut $4 trillion from the deficits over 12 years by enacting a mix of spending cuts and tax increases.




Yet just TODAY Obama gave a "waiver" to ALL seniors in the medicare advantage programs from being forced to participate in the landmark healthcare bill (which was eneacted specifically to address the cost of senior's medicare costs!).

Why did he do that? Why, in one waiver, would he undo his entire single biggest political voctory in one fell swoop? Because it was pointed out that Obamacare is harder on seniors than is the Republican "Ryan Proposal". Seniors are a huge voting block. Political expediency prevailed.

So now... EVERY significant cost cutting measure of Obamacare is GONE! Seniors keep what they got now (which was supposed to be unsustainable), and the doctor 30% reimbursement rate cuts got "fixed" over a year ago... leaving the health care bill savings COMPLETELY UNDONE by the very party that passed it in the first place, preserving only its costly new bureaucracies.

Republicans don't have to repeal the health care bill, the dems are slowly undoing it themselves.

With one hand they offer cuts and taxes, and with the other hand they undo what cuts they enact. The net result is just more taxes and bureaucracy... things get worse not better.

That is S&P's point. We're still trying to fix the spiraling cost of healthcare that the trillion dollar historic health care bill supposedly fixed!

There IS no real US POLITICAL WILL to actually FIX the deficit problem; the politicians are more worried about their re-elections than fixing the problem, and they just keep making it WORSE.


Edited by Gatinho (04/20/11 08:43 PM)







PokeMAME
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Re: S&P downgrades US debt from "stable" to "negative" new [Re: GatKong]
#252349 - 04/20/11 08:44 PM


>
> With one hand they offer cuts and taxes, and with the other hand they undo what cuts
> they enact. The net result is just more taxes and bureaucracy... things get worse not
> better.
>
> That is S&P's point. There IS no real US POLITICAL WILL to actually FIX the deficit
> problem; the politicians are more worried about their re-elections than fixing the
> problem.


[sarcasm]
You're just a right-wing nut job that listens to Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News too much!
[/sarcasm]

Maybe they are telling the truth more than they lie!?!?!?!?!?!







twistyAdministrator
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Re: S&P downgrades US debt from "stable" to "negative" new [Re: GatKong]
#252434 - 04/21/11 02:16 PM


Warning Signs of a Coming Currency Crisis


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