I was just thinking. There were changes in DK/DKJr, and Mario Bros. which made the palette different in them. I've seen similar difference in original Popeye, which is also a Nintendo game. Maybe the same or similar changes would do there as well?
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
Here's a good example of how the colors in Popeye are different
[Re: mogli]
#249265 - 03/19/11 02:42 AM Attachment: popeyefixed.jpg 793 KB (1 downloads)
Well, it's supposed to be. In fact, current MAME more matches this cabinet recording from an arcade:
-- And this one, from a person who has many actual game recordings to his credit:
Not sure where you got the screenshot, but the only video I saw which shared the color (specifically looking at the levels on which Popeye walks with their blueish glow) is here:
So, what does that mean? I'm guessing that the one with the blueish levels are not on an original board, or at least one that matches the original schematics.
I did some research as well to see if MAME ever showed levels with the blueish hue .. and sure enough, I had to dig back to very early MAME version to see. The bootleg was the first Popeye that MAME supported. The main set was not added until the 33 beta cycle (0.33b1) and was not playable until decryption was discovered years later, for MAME 0.53. The set (popeyebl), starting with MAME 0.20, had colors proclaimed as 100% correct. They match more closely the cocktail above as well as your screen shot. This changed in 0.33b2 when Nicola adjusted the screen using actual board schematics to control the brightness levels.to match schematics. MAME 0.33b2 and onward more closely matches the first 2 videos which are upright and original. I have to argue that the different colors might be due to some board swapping with other Nintendo Games, since the bootleg shared this blue hue until the main set schematics were added.
I attached a snap I took of MAME 0.20, showing the old (pre-schematic) display (converted to .png because .PCX doesn't display here):
However, the first time I saw this kind of image (semi-recently) was in a picture of an upright cab at Nuno's arcade. Some of you know (at least of) this guy, I'm sure.
Regardless, in all the real hardware examples you showed, the steps and ladder are white compared to, and the levels a much lighter gray than in, MAME.
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
> I got the image, of an upright cabinet whose monitor was repaired recently, from > here. > > http://www.phoenixarcaderepair.com/arcadegameprojects.htm > > However, the first time I saw this kind of image (semi-recently) was in a picture of > an upright cab at Nuno's arcade. Some of you know (at least of) this guy, I'm sure. > > Regardless, MAME is way dimmer, in particular on the steps and ladder. In essence, > white ain't white.
All MAME games are darker being displayed on computer equipment (for the 99.5% of people who use computer exclusive equipment). The only way we could see a near 100% comparison is to output to actual arcade monitors.
It's hard to know with getting people with actual boards to attest to how things are displayed on their machine. The text blurb from the page you linked above doesn't really say what was done to the machine to make it 'work'.
Quote:
This poor poor rare Popeye Arcade Game needed monitor repair as well, its last technician gave up on this classic. Phoenix Arcade Repair worked our magic and in 2 days we had it working like it was 1985 again!
To me, "worked our magic" is a cover term to cover anything one does to get a game at least working again, including swapping boards or roms around. There might even be an alternate prom set around which some boards have and others do not. You need cooperation from actual game owners to get much farther, I'm afraid, to dump and compare current romsets to see if there is a chance it's different.
Don't mind me, though. I'm just playing one side of an argument.
> Don't mind me, though. I'm just playing one side of an argument.
You forgot about Nuno's. And, still, all your examples of before are very different than MAME. If it's any consolation, I have a 27" arcade multisync, and a 27" CGA arcade monitor, and MAME does not look like your examples on those.
We all knew the colors of DK and DKjr in MAME were wrong on any hardware we used. I think this circumstance is the same kind.
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
> I got the image, of an upright cabinet whose monitor was repaired recently, from > here. > > http://www.phoenixarcaderepair.com/arcadegameprojects.htm > > However, the first time I saw this kind of image (semi-recently) was in a picture of > an upright cab at Nuno's arcade. Some of you know (at least of) this guy, I'm sure. > > Regardless, in all the real hardware examples you showed, the steps and ladder are > white compared to, and the levels a much lighter gray than in, MAME.
I can't speak to the root topic, but I do have to chime in on the monitor repair aspect. Just because a monitor has been repaired does NOT mean it is working in the same manner as it did in 1983. Weakening of electrical components, tube wear and tear, replacement parts, improper calibration (NOBODY calibrates colors properly), and a slew of other things can affect the image you see on the screen. Even a seemingly perfect monitor may not output the same as it did when it was new.
On Nintendo (sharp) monitors in particular, those damned inverter boards could cause all sorts of differences in the output.
Just because a monitor has been repaired does NOT mean it is working in the > same manner as it did in 1983. Weakening of electrical components, tube wear and > tear, replacement parts, improper calibration (NOBODY calibrates colors properly), > and a slew of other things can affect the image you see on the screen. Even a > seemingly perfect monitor may not output the same as it did when it was new. > > On Nintendo (sharp) monitors in particular, those damned inverter boards could cause > all sorts of differences in the output.
All the examples of real hardware by Tafoid and myself are quite similar, though. And different than MAME.
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
> Just because a monitor has been repaired does NOT mean it is working in the > > same manner as it did in 1983. Weakening of electrical components, tube wear and > > tear, replacement parts, improper calibration (NOBODY calibrates colors properly), > > and a slew of other things can affect the image you see on the screen. Even a > > seemingly perfect monitor may not output the same as it did when it was new. > > > > On Nintendo (sharp) monitors in particular, those damned inverter boards could > cause > > all sorts of differences in the output. > > All the examples of real hardware by Tafoid and myself are quite similar, though. And > different than MAME.
Quote: I can't speak to the root topic, but I do have to chime in on the monitor repair aspect.
My first sentence, the only one which you conveniently trimmed, pointed out that I was not speaking direct on subject here. Merely trying to steer you away from thinking that a freshly repaired monitor or random youtube videos had any real merit in backing up you point.
No. Mame computes the R,G,B voltage levels send to the monitor. Implicitly it is assumed that all arcade monitors are sRGB. Also implicitly it is assumed that your monitor is complying to sRGB and is calibrated.
Now, there's a real life (tm). *Real* arcade monitors have - R, G, B gain controls - R, B, B offset controls - one focus control - a limited bandwidth - either a shadow mask, a slot mask or an aperture grille. - the phosphor may or may not exhibit sRGB characteristics.
Now your monitor has (assuming an LCD monitor) - R, G, B gain controls (contrast) - R, B, B offset controls (brightness) - has a significantly higher resolution - most likely never saw a calibration device so it does not comply to sRGB standards.
For the time being I ignored ambient lightning conditions which influence color reception as well.
Consequently, when you are talking about colour it is about the colour you see on *your* monitor. On *mine* it may be different. Digital videos or pictures have had all of the above applied to the photo signal as well. In addition, the white point most likely is completely wrong (dark environment). That's why I carry around a white card with my D90 and do manual white point setting whenever I have time in darker environments. And yes, I have a Huey calibration device for my monitor.
Conclusion: Without a calibrated signal processing chain any information like screenshots and subjective impressions like "inaccurate" are only vague hints.
And Mame will never be accurate. It does come close. Anything else is purely incidental.
> My first sentence, the only one which you conveniently trimmed, pointed out that I > was not speaking direct on subject here. Merely trying to steer you away from > thinking that a freshly repaired monitor or random youtube videos had any real merit > in backing up you point.
No no. I was commenting on that part, saying all the examples were quite similar - regardless of any set-up inaccuracies of each one.
Then I re-iterated on the main topic.
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
> Conclusion: Without a calibrated signal processing chain any information like > screenshots and subjective impressions like "inaccurate" are only vague hints.
You missed my post below, saying I have a 27" arcade multisync, and a 27" CGA arcade monitor, and both look the same with MAME running Popeye, natively, as it looks on a PC monitor.
Again, everyone knew the girders on DK were supposed to be purple. Everyone saw it wasn't so in MAME. Finally, that was corrected - by you.
Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
if this is the case will this be reported to mametesters.i hate to see popeye all wrong.
I’m convinced Mario is a hobo.
He wakes up everyday in the same clothes, runs around in sewers, and collects coins for a living.
At the end of the day, he uses the coins to buy mushrooms
A photo or video of a CRT monitor will almost always differ from what's actually output to it due to differences in each monitor's settings; also differences with the arcade operator who thought that's how the colours should be*. The only correct way to take proper screenshots and videos is by using a video capture device hooked up directly to the PCB's output, like those at http://arcadecollecting.com/shots.html.
* In the gam(bl)ing industry, many Aristocrat monitors (Ceronix) from MK5 and MK6 games come in with wrong colours due to technicians calibrating the monitor so reel strips become white, when in fact they should be a pale yellow in the majority of games.
In the web site above, it clearly shows that the girders in DK, from a real board, are a pinkish tint.
> You missed my post below, saying I have a 27" arcade multisync, and a 27" CGA arcade > monitor, and both look the same with MAME running Popeye, natively, as it looks on a > PC monitor.
At the expense on being rated ultra-picky: They don't look the same, they are most likely close.
> Again, everyone knew the girders on DK were supposed to be purple. Everyone saw it > wasn't so in MAME. Finally, that was corrected - by you.
Yes, I know. And I remember the discussions where people claimed it was wrong and in reality it would be more twoards "red". The issue is, that the girder colour depends on the blue level. The earlier radarscope schematics show a different amplifier stage than later dkong schematics for the blue channel. Lately I have seen pcb pictures of a conversion which had the same amplifier stage as dkong. Gives three possibilities:
a) radarscope blue level 1 b) radarscope blue level 2 c) dkong blue level 2
So those who insisted and put their hand into the fire that the girders where red may be right as well. Most likely there are two "truths" to the story.
Back to popeye: The hints you gave may be valid. The schematics show pullup resistors to +5V which are not accounted for in the current mame code. When I find time, I will correct it. You may as well open a bug on mametesters and assign it to me.
> So those who insisted and put their hand into the fire that the girders where red may > be right as well. Most likely there are two "truths" to the story.
Hmhm. Though I hadn't even seen DK in over twenty years, when I came across MAME, I remembered the girders being purple, or pink, or whatever. (Only Krazy Kong had been red back in the day.) I love how it looks now.
> Back to popeye: The hints you gave may be valid. The schematics show pullup resistors > to +5V which are not accounted for in the current mame code. When I find time, I will > correct it. You may as well open a bug on mametesters and assign it to me. > > Regards,
Thank you so much. I'm glad my comments have been helpful. I posted at mametesters.
Index 
Threaded 
early 80s Nintendo games colors
Reply
[Re: 
.png)
.png)
