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Dumping Glob Tops
#398143 - 03/13/24 06:34 AM
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I recently found "The Apprentice" TV game at a thrift store for a few bucks. Thought it would be fun to mess with and maybe document. It looks like it has a glob topped 44 pin TSOP. By glob top, I mean the epoxy covering a die or whatever happens to be underneath. I'm not active in this scene, but from what I can gather, this community deals with dumping TV games from time to time. I'm certain that this has been asked a million times, but I haven't found much useful information using google or the search here. Since google just promotes spam now, that's not much of a surprise :/
Anyways, image of the flash is here. Not sure how this forum will handle an imgur direct link. IIRC Imgur used to have some weird anti-embed thing going on.
The flash is labeled with `D44B 16M`. I have no issue lifting this hot air and wiring to a standard 2.54mm header. I assume I can read it with a common TSOP reader using a part number that matches the flash layout of this "unknown" chip. I could also probably sniff it in-circuit with a digital logic analyzer if I really wanted to act unhinged.
- Is my assumption correct?
- What, if anything do you like to dump chips like this with?
- I have a GQ4x4, Willem, and several SBCs like raspi I can dump / bit-bang with
- Wouldn't mind getting a new tool if it's actually useful for something
- How do you determine the flash layout on something like this?
- Which chip model would I try to compare it to?
The part number on the chip is referenced here (https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/tvgames/spg2xx_senario.cpp) under `apprentice.bin`. I'm clearly not the first person to have crossed this bridge. I'd love to see some kind of wiki or documentation pertaining to dumping TV games. I'm big on preservation, emulation, and virtualization. If no one can obtain the source material, it doesn't matter IMO. I get why why we don't go around posting ROMs online willy nilly. I think that describing *how* software is dumped is insanely important. It's a weekend project for me. A chance to get my feet wet editing videos and documenting obscure gaming. This game remains lost to time if it can't be dumped. I'm sure the politics are a central issue here. But **HOW** to preserve? I feel like that's missing. Maybe I'm missing where exactly that information is.
There are several pads on the PCB that seem to lead directly to the CPU. Maybe JTAG? Serial debug? If this were an ARM core, that would be cool. Could probably dump over JTAG. Intuition tells me that this will be at best MIPS, or most likely something goofy as hell. Maybe not even goofy? Some kind of CPLD? I honestly have no clue... Really excited to figure it out haha
Totally unrelated, I've run into some posts from 2022 saying the 2003 Spongebob TV game still hasn't been dumped because the code exists within the CPU. Is this still the case? I love poking at obscure systems and processors. That sounds insanely fun to look at.
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This game is also interesting in that the FCC filings don't seem to exist. On the battery cover of the TV-connected unit, we find "FCC ID: MH180477". On the back of the manual, we find "MH 108477".
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As you note, this one is already dumped and emulated, you could revision check it if you want though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gc-d-uqYwA
In this case I believe the sub-board the glob is on just has the same pinout as a standard ROM type, so it got dumped that way. Both Sean Riddle and Team Europe can handle this kind of setup quite easily (the later JAKKs cases where the globs are directly on the PCB with only very, very fine traces between them and no TSOP pads are much trickier)
The 2003 version of Spongebob (and 2003 Namco unit) remain undumped, yes, it seems likely they use CPUs with the ROM onboard, in the same glob, at least based on Sean's analysis of them. (There aren't really enough lines going between the globs on the PCB for one to be acting as ROM)
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Mr. Do |
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MAME Art Editor
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Re: Dumping Glob Tops
[Re: Haze]
#398150 - 03/15/24 07:49 PM
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> The 2003 version of Spongebob (and 2003 Namco unit) remain undumped, yes, it seems
> likely they use CPUs with the ROM onboard, in the same glob, at least based on Sean's
> analysis of them. (There aren't really enough lines going between the globs on the
> PCB for one to be acting as ROM)
Just checking... undumped... as in Sean has them... just can't dump them yet? Or they are still needed?
And last time I checked in... I remember mention of some keys that are still missing... is that still the case? If yes, is there a list somewhere?
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RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.
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Re: Dumping Glob Tops
[Re: Mr. Do]
#398152 - 03/15/24 09:57 PM
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> > The 2003 version of Spongebob (and 2003 Namco unit) remain undumped, yes, it seems
> > likely they use CPUs with the ROM onboard, in the same glob, at least based on
> Sean's
> > analysis of them. (There aren't really enough lines going between the globs on the
> > PCB for one to be acting as ROM)
>
>
> Just checking... undumped... as in Sean has them... just can't dump them yet? Or they
> are still needed?
>
> And last time I checked in... I remember mention of some keys that are still
> missing... is that still the case? If yes, is there a list somewhere?
I've sent Spongebob 2003 and Namco units to Sean before, so yes, he has them, although since he decapped them, they're probably not very useful at this point for anything more.
I also have a Spongebob 2003 here (there are multiple revisions of it based on the checksums / version numbers in test mode too, just to make things more annoying)
I also have a Namco, although I don't know if there are multiple revisions of that.
The other early JAKKs ones like Activision, Atari, and a Fishing game also appear to be on earlier tech, and possibly use CPUs with onboard ROM.
Sean has the vast majority of the JAKKs games (I know, as I bought them) I think there are only 1 or 2 known ones we didn't source. The later ones he hasn't dumped yet are in theory dumpable, but require such delicate work they're a complete nightmare (soldering 30+ wires direct to PCB traces that cover a 2mm square area)
For the GameKeys we technically have all the known released ones, and even some unreleased ones, although it has come to my attention that one of the Star Wars keys we only have a build from the original developer for (which was thought to be a prototype) was actually released, as I've had a few people try to sell me sealed copies for ludicrous money. There's a chance the retail build of that might be different.
Outside of the JAKKS stuff, we just picked up another 25+ XaviX based Plug and Plays from Japan, which Team Europe will attempt to dump (thanks to Peter Wilhelmsen for contributing 600 Euros towards those) and of course if you've been following recent MAME announcements, we got all the Konami PlayPoems based ones dumped recently too.
Sean also worked out how to dump the main ROMs from the MAG (Motion Activated Gear) units, so dumped a few of those, which I've been adding here https://github.com/mamedev/mame/pull/12004 Those do still have globbed MCUs of some kind in the individual controller parts, which seem to be capable of playing their own sounds, but there's little hope of those being dumped.
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| Mr. Do |
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MAME Art Editor
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 4876
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Loc: California
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Re: Dumping Glob Tops
[Re: Haze]
#398154 - 03/15/24 11:30 PM
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> > > The 2003 version of Spongebob (and 2003 Namco unit) remain undumped, yes, it
> seems
> > > likely they use CPUs with the ROM onboard, in the same glob, at least based on
> > Sean's
> > > analysis of them. (There aren't really enough lines going between the globs on
> the
> > > PCB for one to be acting as ROM)
> >
> >
> > Just checking... undumped... as in Sean has them... just can't dump them yet? Or
> they
> > are still needed?
> >
> > And last time I checked in... I remember mention of some keys that are still
> > missing... is that still the case? If yes, is there a list somewhere?
>
> I've sent Spongebob 2003 and Namco units to Sean before, so yes, he has them,
> although since he decapped them, they're probably not very useful at this point for
> anything more.
>
> I also have a Spongebob 2003 here (there are multiple revisions of it based on the
> checksums / version numbers in test mode too, just to make things more annoying)
>
> I also have a Namco, although I don't know if there are multiple revisions of that.
>
> The other early JAKKs ones like Activision, Atari, and a Fishing game also appear to
> be on earlier tech, and possibly use CPUs with onboard ROM.
>
> Sean has the vast majority of the JAKKs games (I know, as I bought them) I think
> there are only 1 or 2 known ones we didn't source. The later ones he hasn't dumped
> yet are in theory dumpable, but require such delicate work they're a complete
> nightmare (soldering 30+ wires direct to PCB traces that cover a 2mm square area)
>
> For the GameKeys we technically have all the known released ones, and even some
> unreleased ones, although it has come to my attention that one of the Star Wars keys
> we only have a build from the original developer for (which was thought to be a
> prototype) was actually released, as I've had a few people try to sell me sealed
> copies for ludicrous money. There's a chance the retail build of that might be
> different.
>
> Outside of the JAKKS stuff, we just picked up another 25+ XaviX based Plug and Plays
> from Japan, which Team Europe will attempt to dump (thanks to Peter Wilhelmsen for
> contributing 600 Euros towards those) and of course if you've been following recent
> MAME announcements, we got all the Konami PlayPoems based ones dumped recently too.
>
> Sean also worked out how to dump the main ROMs from the MAG (Motion Activated Gear)
> units, so dumped a few of those, which I've been adding here
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/pull/12004 Those do still have globbed MCUs of some
> kind in the individual controller parts, which seem to be capable of playing their
> own sounds, but there's little hope of those being dumped.
Wow... lots of good stuff... thank you for the info
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RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.
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