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TafoidAdministrator
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MAME Opinions
#388309 - 10/28/20 09:47 PM


> > MAME 0.226
> >
> > You know what day it is? It’s MAME 0.226 day! A lot has happened in this
> development
> > cycle, and plenty of it is worth getting excited about!
>
> Great release, as always.
>
> I'm a bit surprised, though, that no one has commented here yet, besides me.


This is purely my opinion.

MAMEDEV would love to get some positivity and even simple thanks for efforts mean a lot. Many places where release announcements are posted, replies often end up reading like
"Nice but what about xxxxx", always moving a target to another machine or option which has either never worked in MAME or doesn't work to peoples' satisfaction. That type of exchange can quickly become discouraging for a purely volunteer effort public project.

Also, the overall number of emulator users who actually care about the stuff MAME emulates is growing older and losing interest. Many younger folks nowadays largely are stuck on phones/tablets and while use MAME in limited capacity through other emulators/front-ends, they can never enjoy MAME for all its offerings and range in scope. Preference seems to go to emulators which deal with emulating more modern devices and consoles. Let's face it, too, traditional forums are dying off.

I could add more but my feelings wouldn't translate too well to text - so I'll leave it here.



Master O
Yes, Even Parodius Music
Reged: 11/20/06
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388310 - 10/28/20 10:07 PM


> > > MAME 0.226
> > >
> > > You know what day it is? It’s MAME 0.226 day! A lot has happened in this
> > development
> > > cycle, and plenty of it is worth getting excited about!
> >
> > Great release, as always.
> >
> > I'm a bit surprised, though, that no one has commented here yet, besides me.
>
>
> This is purely my opinion.
>
> MAMEDEV would love to get some positivity and even simple thanks for efforts mean a
> lot. Many places where release announcements are posted, replies often end up reading
> like
> "Nice but what about xxxxx", always moving a target to another machine or option
> which has either never worked in MAME or doesn't work to peoples' satisfaction. That
> type of exchange can quickly become discouraging for a purely volunteer effort public
> project.
>
> Also, the overall number of emulator users who actually care about the stuff MAME
> emulates is growing older and losing interest. Many younger folks nowadays largely
> are stuck on phones/tablets and while use MAME in limited capacity through other
> emulators/front-ends, they can never enjoy MAME for all its offerings and range in
> scope. Preference seems to go to emulators which deal with emulating more modern
> devices and consoles. Let's face it, too, traditional forums are dying off.
>
> I could add more but my feelings wouldn't translate too well to text - so I'll leave
> it here.

All valid and great points, but you accidentally created a new thread.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388311 - 10/28/20 10:27 PM


I'm going to be quite blunt here:

The reason why our collective lunch is being eaten by other emulators isn't for the reasons you describe. It's because we objectively suck a fat one when it comes to any sort of self-promotion.

I loathe many things about Haze's mode of operation, but if there's one thing he gets right, it's that he's consistently on the ball when it comes to posting YouTube videos of new MAME additions, maintaining an actively-updated blog about what's going on, engaging with people on Twitter regarding MAME, and posting Reddit threads on r/emulation when the opportunity arises.

I do the same, but to a lesser extent, and there's a lot more that I could be doing as well.

Something that the team really needs to ask itself is: "What am I, personally, doing to raise the visibility of MAME?"

Because, realistically, most of the dinosaurs on the team who think "Reddit" is the description of the last book they checked out from a library, "Twitter" is the noise the birds make outside the windows of their retirement homes, and "YouTube" is the latest vacuum tube replacement service for their black and white TVs aren't really doing much in that field. Yes, there's a lot to be said for the work that's being done, but at the end of the day, life is all about balance. The MAME team has historically veered way too far into the "if you build it, they will come" line of thinking, and have never had to stump up any sort of publicity that didn't come on its own.

Sorry to be the one with a reality check, but life isn't The Field of Dreams, and the years where you could make a compelling project and expect it to generate its own hype on the Internet are long gone. Have been for about two decades now. The era of organically-generated content is now the era of the algorithm, and the algorithm says that we just aren't that interesting.

What do we do about this?
- Start making monthly progress reports that boil down the technical mumbo-jumbo from the whatsnew.txt commit listings into easy-to-digest, prosaic descriptions of what was done, how itw as done, and why. Dolphin, CXBX, and other emulators do this, and it's worked out rather well for them.
- Start forming a concerted effort to reach out to the broader preservation community. Many people are still unaware that MAME even merged with MESS, and that was half a decade ago - why are people still needlessly reinventing the wheel?
- Improve our code-level documentation. To answer the above question, people are needlessly reinventing the wheel because bolting together their own scheduler, an off-the-shelf CPU core or two (bugs and all), and writing their own OS-dependent layer is literally seen as less onerous than simply authoring a driver in MAME. That needs to change. We can scream until we're blue in our collective faces that people just need to "read the source", but the reality is that the amount of technical debt spread across our drivers would make Microsoft weep. You can't honestly suggest that people just read the source code when they stand as good a chance of finding a high-quality, modernized driver as some ancient old fuck-fest filled with hacks.

What we objectively shouldn't be doing is begging people to "like and subscribe" (to use a YouTuber turn of phrase) on a set of forums that are openly hostile to MAME developers even on a very good day.



Chine
MAME Fan
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Posts: 13
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388312 - 10/28/20 10:38 PM


Old fan here, from the very first version.

It's quite simple, there are 3 things to do:
* 3D GPU acceleration
* android port
* stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.

Then Mame will be the king again.

My 2 cents.



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Master O]
#388313 - 10/28/20 10:38 PM


> > > > MAME 0.226
> > > >
> > > > You know what day it is? It’s MAME 0.226 day! A lot has happened in this
> > > development
> > > > cycle, and plenty of it is worth getting excited about!
> > >
> > > Great release, as always.
> > >
> > > I'm a bit surprised, though, that no one has commented here yet, besides me.
> >
> >
> > This is purely my opinion.
> >
> > MAMEDEV would love to get some positivity and even simple thanks for efforts mean a
> > lot. Many places where release announcements are posted, replies often end up
> reading
> > like
> > "Nice but what about xxxxx", always moving a target to another machine or option
> > which has either never worked in MAME or doesn't work to peoples' satisfaction.
> That
> > type of exchange can quickly become discouraging for a purely volunteer effort
> public
> > project.
> >
> > Also, the overall number of emulator users who actually care about the stuff MAME
> > emulates is growing older and losing interest. Many younger folks nowadays largely
> > are stuck on phones/tablets and while use MAME in limited capacity through other
> > emulators/front-ends, they can never enjoy MAME for all its offerings and range in
> > scope. Preference seems to go to emulators which deal with emulating more modern
> > devices and consoles. Let's face it, too, traditional forums are dying off.
> >
> > I could add more but my feelings wouldn't translate too well to text - so I'll
> leave
> > it here.
>
> All valid and great points, but you accidentally created a new thread.

No, I purposely moved the thread. It has less to do with the release and more to do with the state of things as I saw them. I'd rather not fill the news post with that.



Nightvoice
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388316 - 10/29/20 01:08 AM


First, thanks to all of the MAME devs for their work over the years on an application that continues to get better and better. There are plenty of us in the loft that do appreciate you even if we don't always voice it. The application has literally changed my life.

That said, one reason many people go into the developer field (and I.T. and accounting, for others) are because they are not people persons and deal best with machines. I know I'm not alone when I say I stopped participating in MAME Testers some time ago as well as most of the forums on MAMEWorld is because of getting consistently pissed on for questions or reporting bugs. Not all of us are programmers, and staying abreast of every change made to the application could be a full-time job assuming you even understand them. More pats on the back might be facilitated by fewer kicks in the nuts to the little people. When met with consistent negativity and rancor, it does not motivate a lot of people to participate, let alone donate. I'm sure I'll get flame replies for this, but it is what it is. Appreciation works both ways.



----------------------
I have officially retired from sucking at everything I do. Life is much easier now.

My MAME/MESS artwork files: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ABxeKgNIrKlIsyck7dx4V241NFQDWAF4
Related screen shots: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1U5IbvbVzYW97PuOOQuocvZFE_YJz7WIn



TafoidAdministrator
I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
Reged: 04/19/06
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Nightvoice]
#388319 - 10/29/20 02:27 AM


> First, thanks to all of the MAME devs for their work over the years on an application
> that continues to get better and better. There are plenty of us in the loft that do
> appreciate you even if we don't always voice it. The application has literally
> changed my life.
>
> That said, one reason many people go into the developer field (and I.T. and
> accounting, for others) are because they are not people persons and deal best with
> machines. I know I'm not alone when I say I stopped participating in MAME Testers
> some time ago as well as most of the forums on MAMEWorld is because of getting
> consistently pissed on for questions or reporting bugs. Not all of us are
> programmers, and staying abreast of every change made to the application could be a
> full-time job assuming you even understand them. More pats on the back might be
> facilitated by fewer kicks in the nuts to the little people. When met with consistent
> negativity and rancor, it does not motivate a lot of people to participate, let alone
> donate. I'm sure I'll get flame replies for this, but it is what it is. Appreciation
> works both ways.

I know that in some cases with bug reporting, dealing with reports and communication after determining validity those can seem harsh to those reporting. In your case I just now looked at each bug you've reported (showing you as the original poster) and you've had many resolved issues, a couple which are still confirmed and yet to be fixed, but many were closed. I didn't see any overt examples of people getting "pissed" over your bug reports (at least on MAME Testers). Perhaps you have an example?

Some of those closed were related to external artwork packages or cheat file issues which fall outside of the scope of MAME Testers. Some other were presumptions and observations of change but determined (after some research and convincing Developer input) not to be valid emulation issues. Some were local configuration problems which cleared up after deleting a machine's .cfg, .ini or nvram. There were even a few duplicate (already reported) closures which happened.

If you have suggestions how I could (or others could) handle bug reported better, of course I wouldn't mind some feedback. For myself, I apologize for your feelings of being disenfranchised with the bug reporting process.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 4462
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388322 - 10/29/20 05:06 AM


> Old fan here, from the very first version.
>
> It's quite simple, there are 3 things to do:
> * 3D GPU acceleration
> * android port
> * stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.
>
> Then Mame will be the king again.
>
> My 2 cents.

There we go, exactly what Tafoid was saying happens.



Chine
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 13
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388323 - 10/29/20 08:12 AM


Your answer is exactly why there's no interest in Mame now.

Give me back April fools, funny threads, wip pages like 15 years ago.

You're killing MAME by not listening users.

It's a very sad day today for an early fan like me.



Heihachi_73
I am the Table!
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 1074
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388324 - 10/29/20 08:19 AM


> * stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.
>
> Then Mame will be the king again.
>
> My 2 cents.

In that case, MAME had better start emulating VCRs, DVD players, CRT television OSDs (with remote too), microwave ovens, car ECUs, electronic landline phones, musical doorbells, bus destination signs, cash registers and electronic scales or I'll get really shitty.

Seriously though, there's something like half a dozen people working on MAME these days so of course there's not much happening. There's literally one person working on TV games and zero people working on gambling games (that's why hardly anything even works unless you play 1980s video poker).



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 2261
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388325 - 10/29/20 09:59 AM


> Your answer is exactly why there's no interest in Mame now.

No interest from greedy cunts like you who just want free games and don't give a fuck about preserving digital history, maybe.

> wip pages like 15 years ago.

There are them, but you're probably too illiterate to actually find them.

> You're killing MAME by not listening users.

MAME may have suffered a hit to popularity among ignorant shits like you, but development is actually accelerating in pace, with more people submitting more code than ever before.

> It's a very sad day today for an early fan like me.

Tough shit.



Chine
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 13
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#388326 - 10/29/20 02:40 PM


MAME deserves better than you.

Really.



R.Coltrane
MAME user since 0.11
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 495
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388327 - 10/29/20 03:10 PM


> > Old fan here, from the very first version.
> >
> > It's quite simple, there are 3 things to do:
> > * 3D GPU acceleration
> > * android port
> > * stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.
> >
> > Then Mame will be the king again.
> >
> > My 2 cents.
>
> There we go, exactly what Tafoid was saying happens.

THIS IS MY OPINION, Please do not take it personally:

I am also an old MAME user and have used it since its beginning back in 1997. And I agree with some of the arguments above from Tafoid. For me, what is preventing MAME from being the most popular emulator today is the great effort of developers on extremely obscure computers and gambling/fruit machines (which let's be honest, almost nobody cares anymore). Though, I understand this as being the preservation side of things, which is the focus of the project since its creation. Unfortunately, preserving these obscure systems is not of the interest of the majority who uses MAME nowadays, so these users think about it as a "big waste of time".

Putting much less or no effort at all on an Android port (which is a huge O.S. nowadays and cannot be ignored anymore) and also in numerous arcade drivers/consoles that still have bugs to work on or protections to be unveiled is not good at all and won't help the situation to get any better. On the other hand, recent netlist improvements and growing decapping projects are very positive movements!

I am not saying that this is an easy thing, in fact perhaps the migration of most of the developers to emulate old obscure computers and peripherals is a movement of the type "we can no longer unveil these protections for the arcade game" X "or" Y "or "We no longer have the means to advance in this arcade driver or that for sheer lack of documentation or without decapping protected MCUs."

And so, most users (players) who want an update in the drivers of their favorite games/systems (being these arcade or console), simply will stop following MAME development up close and will keep moving on to other alternatives that do these updates more frequently. For the most part, I understand that emulator users nowadays only want to PLAY games, they do not care that much about preservation of old obscure things they never knew existed to begin with.

Edited by R.Coltrane (10/29/20 04:04 PM)



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 4462
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388328 - 10/29/20 03:22 PM


> Your answer is exactly why there's no interest in Mame now.
>
> Give me back April fools, funny threads, wip pages like 15 years ago.
>
> You're killing MAME by not listening users.
>
> It's a very sad day today for an early fan like me.

I can’t win with people like you. I have done a lot to improve MAME, in terms of emulation, usability, and architecture.

General usability improvements I’ve made kind of recently:

  • Better UI for assigning inputs and configuring analog controls.
  • Better performance and usability for the system and software selection menus.
  • Ability to control which devices with keyboard inputs are active, to make systems with multiple keyboards usable (e.g. a computer with a serial terminal plugged in).


I’ve done a whole lot of stuff for the artwork system, a lot of which has come together in the last couple of months:

  • Parameter animation for more interactive layout features.
  • Circles/ellipses that actually look round.
  • Support for SVG and Windows DIB images.
  • Allowing arbitrary sets of elements/screens to be toggled on and off.
  • Arbitrary blend modes for screens and elements, not tied to their layer.
  • Support for multi-segment and dot matrix displays using external images.
  • A whole lot of clipping and alignment issues fixed.
  • Not immediately crashing MAME on encountering an invalid JPEG file.

I’ve posted samples of this stuff on the artwork forum here, in the shout box at Bannister, and in various reddit threads. Haze posted a video on his YouTube channel demonstrating new features in Cosmo Gang.

Emulation improvements off the top of my head:

  • Proper video emulation for Laser Battle/Lazarian and Cat and Mouse. This made the games playable, previously you could get hit by stuff you couldn’t see and area effects were missing.
  • Sound emulation for Cat and Mouse and Cheeky Mouse, and analog effects for Money Money and Jack Rabbit music.
  • Proper microcontroller emulation for Xain'd Sleena, Gladiator, Great Swordsman, Joshi Volleyball, and several other games. This fixed several gameplay issues.
  • Proper Osborne 1 memory/peripheral mapping, and support for the SCREEN-PAC and Nuevo Video high-resolution mods.
  • Support for most of the original Macintosh and Macintosh Plus keyboards and keypads, and bug fixes for mouse behaviour.
  • Apple II Grappler+ and Parallel Interface card printer interfaces, and bug fixes for Apple II Mouse card.
  • Proper emulation for several Amiga keyboards from Cherry and Mitsumi.
  • Sun workstation keyboard and mouse emulation.


If you look at MAME code today and compare it to five years ago, it’s barely recognisable. Today’s MAME code is far more modern and approachable. It’s easier to maintain, and easier for new contributors to get started with. I’m proud to say I’ve been a big contributor to the transformation, even if some of the changes weren’t my ideas to begin with. MAME has been around for over two decades now, so modernisation is a slow process this work is still ongoing.

I actually do have a plan for proper touchscreen support, but any major changes to MAME are a lot of work, so progress is slow. There are several contributing factors, including the size of MAME, the age of the some of the code, and the fact it has to be kept reasonably stable because it’s undesirable to break the release cadence or stop other people from being able to work on the project. It also competes with other demands on one’s time (real life syndrome). Although it’s not obvious right now, some of the recent changes to the artwork system will help with touchscreen support.

On top of all that, I make sure we get a release out almost every month. I do some basic quality control checks, get the release notes together, make source and Windows binaries available in multiple places for redundancy, write an executive summary, and respond to questions on social media.

But as I already said, I know I can’t win. So I’m going to go back to sipping my vodka, and thinking about what MAME stuff I can do that you definitely won’t appreciate.



Heihachi_73
I am the Table!
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 1074
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: R.Coltrane]
#388333 - 10/29/20 09:10 PM


>
> THIS IS MY OPINION, Please do not take it personally:
>
> I am also an old MAME user and have used it since its beginning back in 1997. And I
> agree with some of the arguments above from Tafoid. For me, what is preventing MAME
> from being the most popular emulator today is the great effort of developers on
> extremely obscure computers and gambling/fruit machines (which let's be honest,
> almost nobody cares anymore). Though, I understand this as being the preservation
> side of things, which is the focus of the project since its creation. Unfortunately,
> preserving these obscure systems is not of the interest of the majority who uses MAME
> nowadays, so these users think about it as a "big waste of time".
>
> Putting much less or no effort at all on an Android port (which is a huge O.S.
> nowadays and cannot be ignored anymore) and also in numerous arcade drivers/consoles
> that still have bugs to work on or protections to be unveiled is not good at all and
> won't help the situation to get any better. On the other hand, recent netlist
> improvements and growing decapping projects are very positive movements!
>
> I am not saying that this is an easy thing, in fact perhaps the migration of most of
> the developers to emulate old obscure computers and peripherals is a movement of the
> type "we can no longer unveil these protections for the arcade game" X "or" Y "or "We
> no longer have the means to advance in this arcade driver or that for sheer lack of
> documentation or without decapping protected MCUs."
>
> And so, most users (players) who want an update in the drivers of their favorite
> games/systems (being these arcade or console), simply will stop following MAME
> development up close and will keep moving on to other alternatives that do these
> updates more frequently. For the most part, I understand that emulator users nowadays
> only want to PLAY games, they do not care that much about preservation of old obscure
> things they never knew existed to begin with.

MAME has become less popular mainly due to people moving from powerful PCs to weak mobile hardware which struggles to run 16-bit games unless they use modified emulators from nearly 20 years ago. Not helped by RetroArch and mame4all etc. pushing that shit to begin with.



Nightvoice
MAME Fan
Reged: 03/19/10
Posts: 883
Loc: The Room Next To You
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: R.Coltrane]
#388334 - 10/30/20 12:05 AM


As with any preservation endeavor, generating interest is the thing. My granddaughters (10 and 8 respectively) will sit for hours and play Pac Man and Donkey Kong on MAME (granted, we limit their game time as a whole), and that's what you have to create to generate interest in preservation: memories. The 20somethings could care less because they're all buried in Warcraft and porn. But my granddaughters will want to save this stuff because they'll look back and remember playing Berzerk with granddad. It's the same reason most of US got involved with MAME. I say expose more younger kids to it and this phenom will continue in perpetuity. With all the faux cabinets being sold at Wal-Mart and Costco, SOMEBODY is buying, so we aren't dead yet.



----------------------
I have officially retired from sucking at everything I do. Life is much easier now.

My MAME/MESS artwork files: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ABxeKgNIrKlIsyck7dx4V241NFQDWAF4
Related screen shots: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1U5IbvbVzYW97PuOOQuocvZFE_YJz7WIn



gregf
Ramtek's Trivia promoter
Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: R.Coltrane]
#388337 - 10/30/20 01:14 AM





>Putting much less or no effort at all on an Android port (which is a huge O.S. nowadays and
>cannot be ignored anymore)

That trying to run Bazooka?...good luck.


>and also in numerous arcade drivers/consoles that still have bugs to work on or
>protections to be unveiled is not good at all and won't help the situation to get any
> better. On the other hand, recent netlist improvements and growing decapping projects are
>very positive movements!

Granted that it may be a bummer with only rom or prom files dumped and game [or whatever item] not fully working in a skeleton file, but I will take that compared to not having any roms dumped whatsoever. That was my concern for non-cpu videogames that use roms. I am thankful many have been dumped [still plenty yet to be found and roms dumped] even though not yet playable.


>For the most part, I understand that emulator users nowadays only want to PLAY games,
>they do not care that much about preservation of old obscure things they never knew
>existed to begin with.

It made sense when Micko [or whoever made the decision] had included MESS source code into MAME source code because that meant it was easier to be able to work in MAME on emulating coinop games that actually did and made use of computer components. Eventually it was probably going to be either MAME taking over MESS or other way around since many of the coinop stuff used computers or console systems. It's too bad that probably most of todays gamerz are probably unable to connect the two dots and why MAME is involved in non-coinop and coinop.


When something like the Fairlight synthesizer full working emulation is maybe around the corner...more likely next year, there is no way a gamer can pooh pooh with that MAME emulation of that keyboard system even though the system might not be state of the art like it used to be back then. Heck....if I had a newer computer, I'd probably be running Casio RZ-1 drum machine emulation in MAME and creating some groove beats just as much as playing Frogs or Sega's Carnival.

--
Fairlight synthesizer progress
07/06/20

https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh...part=1&vc=1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4yKD5fvRbQ



-



Envisaged0ne
MAME Fan
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Posts: 543
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: R.Coltrane]
#388338 - 10/30/20 01:52 AM


I agree with everything you said. I love MAME. Been using it since 1998. 1st game I got running on it was Donkey Kong. I remember my excitement when I was playing the actual arcade game on my low end PC. Now a days, I just don't have any real interest in what's coming out or being developed. The only thing I really want is to have the graphic glitches in MK4 fixed, and get the IBM PCJR emulation working better. As it is, you insert a diskette and it takes forever for anything to happen...if it ever does. Short of that, MAME works great with all the games I care about and I really don't think any further advancements are anything that will interest me. It's almost so perfect at what I already want, that the current work just doesn't matter anymore



Windows 11 64 bit OS
Intel Core i7-10700
Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 6GB
32GB DDR4 RAM



Renegade
Got No Where Else to Go
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388340 - 10/30/20 05:12 AM





As one of the old timers too, here since the first release, still remember about the excitement when the first win version of mame came out.

I do greatly appreciate all the hard work that has been put into mame and all the hours that these guys have taken out of their lives to allow us the ability to enjoy mame.

But as an old timer to me mame has become bloat ware, mean no disrespect just voicing my opinion, Mame drew people because of the gaming side not because it emulated a ATM machine. Lets go back at look at when it started to decline, shortly after mess and merging then all the added electronic hardware. The number of downloads, the number of posts etc, this was easy to see as when people brought up their opinions of all this added electronics on the boards they were quickly torn down by some of the mame devs for their opinions and many just gave up or left.

It became like a super hero movie where instead of 1 or 2 super heros to keep you interested in the movie the studio adds 20 then 30 then 40 super heros to the movie to try to draw in all these different fans of different heros but end up losing that audiance because too much going on at one time to keep each fan interested in their hero.

If mame wants to add all this stuff and thats all the mame devs wish to work on thats their choice and I support them but they cant be surprised that they end up losing people along the way that have no interest in atm machines, apple floppy drives etc.

Honestly mame should have stayed the original course and let another emulator do the floppies, etc. I seen no laws stated that forbid dev members from either starting new or working on other emulators outside of mame.


In reality I hate seeing this, Many times if it weren't for gregf (bless his heart) there wouldn't be anything posted for a long time. Because I remember when to many people mameworld was the place to hang out and the numerous posts...


Like I stated I really do appreciate all the hard work and devotion many have put into mame. I've got to relive many memories thru the years thru mame and I spent endless hours on this web site and many other mame sites.


And no its not nor has it ever been only about playing free games because as I've stated in other posts I havent downloaded mame in over 15 months until this last week but I did and still do swing by atleast 4 to 5 times a week just to see if by any chance this place is livening up. Because I miss the posts, the help, the friends that used to basically live here.



Only here to annoy...



Moochieone
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388345 - 10/30/20 08:07 AM


For me, well, I've been a "lurker" for well over a decade (actually 2 decades now), and became interested in MAME from two perspectives. First, I was a demo-scene programmer in the early-to-mid-90s, and was quite intrigued with Nicola's vision by the end of the 90s. As an "aspiring" programmer, I always wanted to add to the contribution, but life and career advances pulled me further away from that goal - I moved away from hardcore programming (mainframe and x86) and moved into multi-database administration/SME/instructor across various platforms. But, it wasn't until the early-2000s when I started seeing fan-based MAME machines being built, and that led to my second perspective. I thought...hell, I could do that, but the effort had to wait until I finished building my house and could build the capital to finance the arcade build. I spent over a year researching and planning the design, and spent another year learning all about MAME. As a technical programmer by heart, I poured over all the source code, and dreamed of eventually contributing, but, alas, that never came to be simply because I never invested in the resources to continue down that path.
Over time, I was able to complete my MAME cab, and over the years, it has gone through heavy use and multiple upgrades. All throughout that time, I have kept up with all the technical improvements/additions to the core, and actually look forward to continually digging into the Git repositories to see what technical advances are being made, and trying to understand them.

Yes, there is a point to this background...
Due to the nature of our living conditions, we are fortunate enough to have many people across various cultures/backgrounds/diversities/generations that visit us. The "gameroom" is a popular destination, with the MAME cab being one of several focal points.
Over the last decade, I have noted the following:
1) People that are of my generation (born in the 60s and 70s) love to play the early games and are very intrigued by the internal operations of the machine. They are very interested in looking at the source code and following the project, and are willing to donate and provide components for the continuation of the project, but they are an aging generation that are starting to look to other interests;
2) People that were born in the 80s are more interested in the "nostalgia" of the games they used to play, and love to play those games, but are still somewhat interested in the earlier games. They are still interested in the internal workings of the code, and some have had interest in continuing following in the project. Most would love to build something similar. I have also had several requests from people on who to contact to donate components to for the continuation of the project, and one person who was actually interested in coding;
3) People that were born in the 90s are more interested in the "NES-style" games (console-based Mario and such), but are excited to play games like TMNT, Street Fighter 2, and MK, but only on a limited basis before they get tired and want to move on. I tend to get more requests for playing Super Mario 2 and other console games, but these are not on the arcade, but on a separate machine in another part of the house. There is extremely low interest in source code review much less wanting to spend the time to learn and build their own machines or contribute to the code base. Many have been interested in the hand-held games, but because they were a lower format of the GameBoy/Color and have viewed the games as an amusing fad only worthy of a few seconds to look at. I have had a couple of people willing to contribute components to the project and nobody wanting to code;
4) People that were born in the 2000s have even less interest in not only the MAME cab, but in the entire core project of MAME. They will spend time asking which games to play, then trying them for a minute or so and moving on, stating that either the game is too difficult (of which I have every game switch setting to the easiest mode) or that they are bored. The most popular games (Pac Man, DK, etc.) are now available on their phones and other media, so they are not interested in the original concept. People of this generation tend to look at the project as if it is something old and that they don't have any relationship with, so it isn't worth the time and effort to go down the path. Also, since there are other high-level programming languages, many (not most) are not interested in delving into the language used in the MAME core. As it currently stands, MAME has certain restrictions on emulation of certain components of this era, as well as limited knowledge resources, so it would make sense that components of this generation are less-likely to be emulated.
5) People that were born in the 2010s, who are of age 10 or less, have extremely limited knowledge in MAME, much less the intended project. They have hardly any relationship with any of the components, and are the least to be actively involved. They view the cab as a strange large machine, and have no history with any of the games (other than the popular Pac Man, etc. that they can play on their phones or other media). Although they are considered the future programmers, they do not have any relationship with the project, nor are they being told of such - mostly due to the lacking interest in the prior generations.

So, how do I summarize this??? Actually, I'm not sure, since most of this is based on observations from a certain individual that has access to opinions of various generations. What I can conclude is that each generation is becoming less interested simply because: 1) they just don't care about preserving their current technologies (older means lower value or that they simply view technological growth as something that doesn't need to be preserved); 2) they have no association with the older technology that the MAME development community is currently working on, so there is little to no interest in contributions; 3) they would rather invest their time in other values, such as newer programming languages that are not associated with antiquated technologies (chip readers) or where their education/career/family takes them; 4) the core project of MAME moves too slow for their wants - i.e. current CPUs do not have the power to emulate the things they want now (per MAME documentation standards), so they are willing to give up accurate documentation/emulation for hacks and shortcuts that work now.

I can say that I am of the generation that understands and supports the MAME project, and will continue to educate and promote interest where possible. Honestly, I think that is where part of the future of MAME is at - to look for ways to understand the perspectives of the newer generation and to help educate them on the value of the project - maybe help kindle a fire for awareness of things that they may be able to contribute to (or learn how to contribute to) going forward, even if it is just to take notice of the things they are using today and have them consider if it is something they would like to tinker with again in the future.

But again, I'm an old dude that has been told on numerous occasions that my views are not in line with the goals of the new generations, and to that I say, "So be it...I won't be here to coddle you forever"!



RetroAndy70
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#388346 - 10/30/20 09:33 AM


Mooglyguy, why do you take such pride in being the most offensive, pathetic, rude piece of sh!t Mamedev has ever had? Don't you aspire to be MORE than this?

Don't get me wrong, much of what frustrates you frustrates others too (the entitled nature of many Mame users is incredible), but your responses are invariably either aggressive or patronising. The fact that you failed (or refused) to learn and utilize basic social skills is tragic. Grow up.



gregf
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Renegade]
#388348 - 10/30/20 10:52 AM



>Lets go back at look at when it started to decline, shortly after mess and merging then all
>the added electronic hardware. The number of downloads, the number of posts etc, this was
>easy to see as when people brought up their opinions of all this added electronics on the
>boards they were quickly torn down by some of the mame devs for their opinions and many
>just gave up or left.

>Honestly mame should have stayed the original course and let another emulator do the
> floppies, etc. I seen no laws stated that forbid dev members from either starting new or
>working on other emulators outside of mame. But as an old timer to me mame has become
> bloat ware,

imo When Central Point software PCTools 4.3x version went from a single floppy diskette program (1989) to version 5.0 which was beginning of being a bloatware package in which user had to install 5 to 10 diskettes onto hard disk in order to get PC Tools running, that decision was a mistake. I was a dedicated fan of PCTools myself. If the company had added an improved version of PCTools that can run on a single diskette like previous versions, but diskette would be on a single diskette of 5.25 HD diskette and 3.5 720k or 1.44M AND also include the other diskettes that would be installed on a hard drive, I could see users still satisfied with PCTools as their program. Instead, Central Point wound up losing customers.

As for MAME going 'bloatware' it is like what late Georgia house member John L. Lewis stated "Make trouble, but make it good trouble." MAME's so called 'bloatware' is making "good trouble". MAME and MESS needed to merge at some point to tackle oddball hardware combinations that coinop and non-coinop products would consist of. It was bound to happen in which the two projects would merge. It was only a matter of time.

If going back to 2009 when Micko was in charge, it made sense to incorporate the MESS source code into MAME source since that made it easier to work on coinop games that made use of computer components such as Filetto and many other coinop games that use computer components such as the Magnet hardware that was marketed in Spain for coinop arcade games.


Merging MESS into MAME also made it possible for Italian Model Racing brand prototype games that were still on diskettes (not yet designed on a pcb) to be imaged and eventually supported and working in MAME even though some are not fully playable because they were incomplete designed games in initial development stage.

There are still some coinop games that use 8 track tape media and those might require
some extra work in the future in which both source code both MAME and MESS are needed in order to emulate the game such as Kee Games Quiz Show.


>In reality I hate seeing this, Many times if it weren't for gregf (bless his heart) there
>wouldn't be anything posted for a long time. Because I remember when to many people
> mameworld was the place to hang out and the numerous posts...

The good old days of when Smit would go on a rage about something, or Fazeo and ArcadeEd would bash jop about GameCube, and the classic Photoshop wars including the infamous 'Dancing Fazeo' (that was funny when it was first released), Smit calling Fever squirrely, and Pi posting abstract posts for fun, and Elgo with snarky post comments, and Eldio with his observation posts, and Roc, and KC, and twisty, and lastly Orc....in which hopefully he returns and kicks someone for the heck of it. Probably me since I like electronic drums and also Casio RZ-1 drum machine (emulated in MAME) ....which btw....is actually worthwhile messing around with in case a user understands how it works.


Casio RZ-1 isn't a game, but since it is almost fully emulated (but still in working shape) it can produce some 'beats'.



gregf
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Moochieone]
#388349 - 10/30/20 11:24 AM




Almost similar to Haze's occasional past observations into the future of progress with MAME except the 'detail' take of each generation.


Back in 2001 or maybe it was 2002, an arcade in Manitou Springs, CO (Arcade Amusements) had various cabs outside areas, but also several in various rooms in different buildings. In 2001 to 2002 years, when I had a chance to visit there, one of the rooms was practically a time warp throwback to 1960s/1970s because the room had EM hardware games, gun rifle games, 1970s video games, pinball tables, mechanical arcade games.

The brands ranged from Williams, Sega, Allied Leisure, Chicago Coin, Midway, Atari, Kee Games. The room was only open during summer tourist season. To little children in post 2000 AD, the mechanical games and EM hardware games were unique and still fun to play just like as if little children were playing the games back in 1960s and 1970s.

If it were possible to prevent wear and tear of the coinop games, and be able to keep games at same location spot for many years, the interest might be there, but maybe not as much as in past years.



Ocean View
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388350 - 10/30/20 01:53 PM


I too have been enjoying MAME since the early days for many of the reasons that have been posted in this thread and I am very grateful for its existence. But for me the moment it became difficult to use and enjoy was the introduction of Software Lists. I have never been able to get my head around them.

I would love to play the Atari console games, Commodore 64 games, NEC console games, early Xbox games, the Nintendo consoles games, the SEGA console games but most of all I would really like to play the Sinclair Spectrum games.

If access to playing games on these computers and consoles was made easier, I would not only be grateful, but I am confident that interest in MAME would increase again.



BIOS-D
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Ocean View]
#388351 - 10/30/20 03:30 PM


> I too have been enjoying MAME since the early days for many of the reasons that have
> been posted in this thread and I am very grateful for its existence. But for me the
> moment it became difficult to use and enjoy was the introduction of Software Lists. I
> have never been able to get my head around them.
>
> I would love to play the Atari console games, Commodore 64 games, NEC console games,
> early Xbox games, the Nintendo consoles games, the SEGA console games but most of all
> I would really like to play the Sinclair Spectrum games.
>
> If access to playing games on these computers and consoles was made easier, I would
> not only be grateful, but I am confident that interest in MAME would increase again.

I don't understand what is so hard about softlist. You have a "roms" directory where all your audited ROMs from a mame.exe or mame.xml came from. Then for softlist you have a "roms/a2600" directory where all your audited ROMs from a "hash/a2600.xml" came from. And so on for the rest of the xml files on the "hash" folder ("roms/nes" for "nes.xml", "roms/megadriv" for "megadriv.xml", "roms/psx" for "psx.xml", etc.). The difficult part is getting hints about how to use a ROM manager.

If you have been long enough using MAME since the early days, you should be familiar with datfiles and auditing tools like ClrMAME or RomCenter. Bonus points (but not necessary) if you know how to use uCON64 for splitting cartridge console ROMs into headerless files. Datafiles like "nes.xml" or "snes.xml" ask for them.



abelenki
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388354 - 10/30/20 05:27 PM


> * 3D GPU acceleration
> * android port
> * stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.
>
> Then Mame will be the king again.

lol, REIROM, is that you?



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ICEknight
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Improving emulation new [Re: Envisaged0ne]
#388355 - 10/30/20 05:44 PM


> The only thing I really want is to have the
> graphic glitches in MK4 fixed, and get the IBM PCJR emulation working better.

Since MAME's an open project, have you tried looking for somebody with knowledge on those systems and see if they could improve emulation?



ICEknight
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Software lists new [Re: Ocean View]
#388356 - 10/30/20 05:50 PM


> But for me the
> moment it became difficult to use and enjoy was the introduction of Software Lists. I
> have never been able to get my head around them.
>
> most of all
> I would really like to play the Sinclair Spectrum games.
>
> If access to playing games on these computers and consoles was made easier, I would
> not only be grateful, but I am confident that interest in MAME would increase again.

...What? We've actually added every Spectrum game to those lists you dislike.

File Manager -> Cassette -> Software List -> F2 to play the tape

How can you make it easier than that? (You don't even need to press F2 if it's a disk game)



Ocean View
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Re: Software lists new [Re: ICEknight]
#388358 - 10/30/20 07:28 PM


Thank you for your reply and thank you for trying to help, but in many ways your reply and especially the reply from BIOS-D sums up the problem. What is easy for you to understand is not obvious or easy to follow for a layman. I understand completely that to you, this is easy stuff, and you more than likely think I am a bit thick, but I was only pointing out that if MAME is to become popular again it might like to make things simpler for all the other thick people out there who want to use it.



Chine
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Renegade]
#388360 - 10/30/20 08:02 PM


thanks



BIOS-D
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Re: Software lists new [Re: Ocean View]
#388363 - 10/30/20 09:26 PM


> Thank you for your reply and thank you for trying to help, but in many ways your
> reply and especially the reply from BIOS-D sums up the problem. What is easy for you
> to understand is not obvious or easy to follow for a layman. I understand completely
> that to you, this is easy stuff, and you more than likely think I am a bit thick, but
> I was only pointing out that if MAME is to become popular again it might like to make
> things simpler for all the other thick people out there who want to use it.

So basically you blame others for solutions that are given to you in a easy to digest manner because you don't try them? I don't see that as a MAME developer problem.

However I can see being a problem MAME doesn't handle ROMs on their own and you have to depend fully on external ROM managers. MAME already knows where your files could be located, the content it expects and its missing files. We even have two standards everyone follows (split and merged). There should be a way to drag a compressed file ("mame.exe %1"), fill the missing content into a merged file in the roms directory and then prompt the user how to select it from the menu or how to run it using command line with the available clones if necessary.

Also I know it's important files are correct and available. But is it really necessary to stop a system functioning when you include a BIOS file you are not even willing to use? This is the reason people believe you update ROMs very often. What is so wrong about disabling the BIOS/device not found and let the game run with the BIOS/devices already selected and available? Why would a dump from a keyboard you won't even use or don't default select makes updating MAME versions a hassle for new users?

I wish I could invest solutions to these to the Github if only I had the time for it. That and turning the next CHD revision into a lossless kind of torrentzip format. Here is when R.Belmont will come and say "it is" when it isn't. There's no problem when inputing a hard drive or DVD ISO. But as soon as you input bin/cue files it creates a different "bad (formatted)" dump when extracted. The CHD could extract exactly what was inputted first given the popularity it is receiving from other emulator authors and scenes looking for ways to keep information compressed and usable.



Ocean View
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Re: Software lists new [Re: BIOS-D]
#388364 - 10/30/20 09:56 PM


It took me 4 reads of your reply before my limited IT knowledge began to understand what you are saying, and other than your first line, which is assumptive (I have tried multiple times to make this work) I think that you have nailed the issue.

Please know also that I would never criticise the developers, all of whom I hold in high regard. My only wish is to explore ways to make MAME popular again.



Envisaged0ne
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Re: Improving emulation new [Re: ICEknight]
#388367 - 10/30/20 10:50 PM


> Since MAME's an open project, have you tried looking for somebody with knowledge on
> those systems and see if they could improve emulation?

No I haven't. It really hasn't been a big enough deal to me. I figure if it happens, then great, if it doesn't, then no big deal. I figure if someone wants to work on them they can, but I didn't want to come off as pushy about it



Windows 11 64 bit OS
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Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 6GB
32GB DDR4 RAM



Envisaged0ne
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: BIOS-D]
#388368 - 10/30/20 10:58 PM


I agree. It's not anymore difficult than your regular Arcade ROMS. I setup bat files to automatically run MAME for Atari 2600, 7800, NES, SNES, Coleco Vision and Sega Genesys. I click on the bat file. Mame automatically brings up the window for me to choose what ROM I want to play, then done. Couldn't be any easier



Windows 11 64 bit OS
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Heihachi_73
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Moochieone]
#388369 - 10/31/20 12:09 AM


I definitely had my fair share of consoles, growing up with an Atari 2600, Sega Master System, NES, SNES, N64, PS1 and PS2 (notably, I never had a Mega Drive as a kid), but by the time I was of adult age in the early 2000s (note that I do *not* identify as a millennial in generational speak) the 90s style arcades with Street Fighter, Metal Slug, Daytona etc. had all but gone in Australia, having been replaced with mostly Japanese/Chinese games (even in language) that I had absolutely no interest in. Not to mention the price (while the US used one or two quarters, we used one or two $1 coins, which are conveniently the same diameter, so arcade gaming had become a complete ripoff by then, and by the time game cards took over, they were even more expensive as they could have stupid shit like $1.20 or $1.50 per "token" since one swipe equals one credit).

[Warning, wall of Tekken approaching]

$2 to last 30 seconds against a "sleeper" professional in Tekken who deliberately plays "reasonably good" and/or gives you the first round and then wipes the floor (or air) with you in every round after with fifteen-hit juggles? May as well go to the casino and play a few 1c slots, it's actually cheaper on low bets (e.g. 20c to play 20 lines which is easily enough, until machines started enforcing that 50-lines-only bullshit with operators also changing them to 2c or even 5c denominations for max profit) and I might actually come out with more than I started with. I think the 80%-health-bar-juggle factor is also why I gave up playing Tekken after Tag 1. Fact, you can do damaging juggles in all Tekken games, even in Tekken 1, but the fun factor disappeared when Tekken 4 came out, it just became a generic fighter to me after that (having tired old Heihachi as a final boss in that game is laughable, especially after Devil, Ogre and Unknown - I don't mention True Ogre as that was also laughable due to his oversized hitbox making him stupidly easy). The only time I put Tekken 4 in the PS2 is to play Tekken Force. I bought Tekken 5 for the arcade Tekken 1-2-3 ports but they fucked it up by not saving anything so it was back to MAME straight away. Also, fuck Jinpachi. Just the sheer look of Tekken 6 and Tekken 7 makes me headdesk at the thought of it, and be glad that I stopped buying consoles after the PS2.

[End of wall]

For the 90s/2000s kids there is also a major lack of MAME emulation of their era's worth of consoles due to the complexity of the hardware and the huge system requirements if there is no DRC or anything like that. These are the kids who started playing games in the DVD era (Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox/GameCube/Wii), if not the beginning of the HD era with the PS3/360, DS/3DS or PSP/Vita. MAME hasn't even got close to emulating a DS, let alone anything more powerful (even with MAME's advancements with the Dreamcast/NAOMI over the years, one look at the NAOMI driver shows that just about every game is still flagged MNW). MAME's emulation drops off abruptly with anything later than a PlayStation 1, Nintendo 64, 80486-based PC or a 68K-era Mac (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think MAME even emulates a PowerPC Mac yet), with the sweet spot still being exactly where it was 20 years ago, firmly in the 8-bit and 16-bit era.

Also, with a lot of things being on the cloud and vanishing without a trace when the download-only, online-only game (with the physical 25GB Blu-Ray disc having nothing but a 2MB executable file that allows it to boot in the console and download the game itself from the cloud) is inevitably pulled from the servers, what hope do people from say 2040 have in reliving old games they had as a kid in 2020? Same goes with films that have been out of print for 30+ years yet stored untouched in archives without even the slightest thought of a release, because [insert brand new exty-million-dollar AAA production here] is more profitable than having to dig up, restore, remaster and HD-ify an ancient film that only applies to a niche group of people now aged in their 50s and up.

With the kids of the 2010s (can't say 2020s yet but I will assume it's the same), their PC is a smartphone, their game console is a smartphone, their TV is a smartphone and they read books on their smartphone. They might have a console/handheld like a Switch for the exclusive titles but that's about it.



lharms
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#388370 - 10/31/20 03:14 AM


Not bad ideas. But how about a 'theme' for each release? Like pick a system and make it seriously good like that one time that Haze did for master system? Or like what you did for the SGI stuff a few months ago? Pick some of the older systems that do not have a good emu and just bash on that for a month. Dogpile it. Like the orig XBOX currently has very 'meh' emus out there. But if MAME had it out of the box it would bring in more people? I think some of the more popular stuff has been ignored for fear of the companies lashing out. But some of this stuff is getting on 20 years old at this point and MAME has nothing or something that has not been really touched in 10 years. For some very popular systems too... For some of those systems people are going to other emus because the MAME support for them is not there or acts very badly.

To add maybe setup a poll and have people vote on what the next 'theme' should be?

Edited by lharms (10/31/20 03:22 AM)



gregf
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Heihachi_73]
#388374 - 10/31/20 12:35 PM



>For the 90s/2000s kids there is also a major lack of MAME emulation of their era's worth of
>consoles due to the complexity of the hardware and the huge system requirements if there is
>no DRC or anything like that. These are the kids who started playing games in the DVD era
> (Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox/GameCube/Wii), if not the beginning of the HD era with the PS3/360,
> DS/3DS or PSP/Vita. MAME hasn't even got close to emulating a DS, let alone anything more
> powerful (even with MAME's advancements with the Dreamcast/NAOMI over the years, one look
> at the NAOMI driver shows that just about every game is still flagged MNW).



yz70s has made some progress along the way in 2020 with more Naomi hardware related emulation and also with Chihiro hardware in 2020 even though there is still a ways to go.


https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/58fcf309069a62657132656be0c1751c8995aa2a

xbox_nv2a.cpp: big update to chihiro/xbox 3d graphics
2020-06-11



NewMameUser
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388379 - 10/31/20 06:30 PM


The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.



mhoes
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#388380 - 10/31/20 07:04 PM


Wow. Reading the posts in this thread (and doing some long due googling), I feel like I must have been asleep for all of the years (decades?) that I have been using MAME. I had no idea there was so much hostility towards the devs. Well, I knew about the seemingly endless stream of users that 'demanded' that their favorite game/system gets emulated, but this is insane.

So now that I do know, let me start by giving a BIG thank you to all of the people involved with the creation of MAME throughout the years. And although I started out 'just' wanting to relive the games I played as a kid, these days I totally understand and support the goal of wanting to preserve computing history as accurately as possible. All of the work put into MAME is a volunteer effort, and people are putting in their spare time and even hard earned money to improve MAME. I may be late with explicitly expressing this gratitude, but it is genuine.



Vas Crabb
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: mhoes]
#388381 - 10/31/20 07:11 PM


> So now that I do know, let me start by giving a BIG thank you to all of the people
> involved with the creation of MAME throughout the years. And although I started out
> 'just' wanting to relive the games I played as a kid, these days I totally understand
> and support the goal of wanting to preserve computing history as accurately as
> possible. All of the work put into MAME is a volunteer effort, and people are putting
> in their spare time and even hard earned money to improve MAME. I may be late with
> explicitly expressing this gratitude, but it is genuine.

Thanks for expressing your appreciation.



ICEknight
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Re: Software lists new [Re: Ocean View]
#388382 - 10/31/20 07:32 PM


> > File Manager -> Cassette -> Software List -> F2 to play the tape
> >
> > How can you make it easier than that? (You don't even need to press F2 if it's a disk
> > game)
> >
> Thank you for your reply and thank you for trying to help, but in many ways your
> reply and especially the reply from BIOS-D sums up the problem. What is easy for you
> to understand is not obvious or easy to follow for a layman. I understand completely
> that to you, this is easy stuff, and you more than likely think I am a bit thick, but
> I was only pointing out that if MAME is to become popular again it might like to make
> things simpler for all the other thick people out there who want to use it.

My question on how to make it easier wasn't rethorical, I'm legitimately curious as to how loading a game can be made easier than that, other than the emulator downloading it for you.



mhoes
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388383 - 10/31/20 07:33 PM


Also: I recently had a conversation with someone, and somehow the topic got to 'arcade games'. So i tried to explain the concept of emulation in a non technical way, and then showed him 'donkey kong' and 'pacman' in MAME. He was excited and flabbergasted at the same time. 'that looks just like the same game [dkong, pacman] I played as a kid !' And then I got to tell him that: as far as the knowledge of the original hardware was accurate, and the readout of the game-code components of the original hardware was correct..." he was actually playing the same game as he had as a kid. He loved it. As far as I can tell, he actually got to relive childhood memories in some way shape or form. And although the name 'mame' or even the 'concept of emulation' may not have stuck, he did get to enjoy the reliving of childhood memories, if only for a little while. Perhaps even little things like this might assist in finding the energy to keep up the good work of improving the emulator.



Sthiryu
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Re: Software lists new [Re: ICEknight]
#388385 - 10/31/20 08:30 PM


Using MameUi is even easier: You set the software path in options and then load your game from the list.

There are no excuses to play a console game that way. Maybe loading computer tapes could be more challenging if you don't know how the computer behaves.

Edited by Sthiryu (10/31/20 08:31 PM)



PoorKenny
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: lharms]
#388399 - 11/01/20 03:58 AM


> Not bad ideas. But how about a 'theme' for each release? Like pick a system and make
> it seriously good like that one time that Haze did for master system? Or like what
> you did for the SGI stuff a few months ago? Pick some of the older systems that do
> not have a good emu and just bash on that for a month. Dogpile it.

You don't walk onto a construction site and tell everyone they're working on the electrical wiring that day. Plumbers and carpenters aren't electricians. I'm no dev but MAME doesn't really seem to be much different. Different devs have different skills and knowledge. I would love to see Overdrive working but from what I've read that is going to take someone with a particular set of skills to figure out. "Forcing" all the devs to work on it probably won't accomplish anything. You just have to be patient with that sort of thing and be thankful for the things that do work.



Vas Crabb
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: lharms]
#388401 - 11/01/20 05:34 AM



Quote:


Like pick a system and make it seriously good like that one time that Haze did for master system? Or like what you did for the SGI stuff a few months ago?



Using SGI as an example doesn’t support what you’re suggesting. If anything, it’s the opposite of that. SGI works as well as it does now largely because of P-Mack’s work on the new MIPS3 interpreter. That happened very slowly, over many months. MG expressed frustration at apparent lack of progress with IRIX while RISC/OS and WinNT were slowly progressing. The results became very visible to end users when it got to the point where IRIX could install and run with a GUI, but there was a lot of very slow work leading up to that.


Quote:


Pick some of the older systems that do not have a good emu and just bash on that for a month. Dogpile it.



That’s not how progress happens. You can’t just throw people at a problem. It’s even harder to throw people at a problem if you can’t get them in the same room or even the same timezone.


Quote:


To add maybe setup a poll and have people vote on what the next 'theme' should be?



No-one’s going to take kindly to that unless you’re prepared to pay market rates. A decent C++ developer is worth AUD125,000/year. If you want to be able to dictate what even one developer does for a month, you’re going to be up for thousands of dollars. MAME development is only “fun” when you can work on what you want to work on, in proportion to your available time and motivation. If MAME was a day job, most of us would hate it.

Now to be honest, a lot of MAME development isn’t fun for me at all. I don’t spend a lot of time working on stuff I’m interested in. I tend to spend a lot of my time dealing with overheads or fighting the biggest fire. Overheads includes stuff like releases (a pretty busy three days, even with the new, streamlined process), and essential management tasks to keep development moving along smoothly.

There’s a lot of firefighting because MAME is big and decades old. Doing any kind of major rework is a lot of effort. It does pay off, though. A good example is the rate that computer peripherals are added these days. Dragging the codebase into the 21st century has made that a lot easier – life’s a lot simpler for the people working on actual emulation. There’s nowhere near as much boilerplate code and voodoo involved in writing MAME devices now. But getting there was a lot of effort, and it’s slow, thankless work where the best immediate outcome is that you don’t break anything. It’s not until later that you see the benefits come through in terms of more progress in each release.

I’d consider the artwork system changes in the last couple of months to be firefighting as well. It’s an area that’s been plagues with bugs from the very beginning, with major limitations that constantly have to be worked around (full credit to hap for what he manages to pull off with the limited tools he has available). It took me about two years to actually get this stuff done for various reasons, but from a user’s perspective it looks like it just appeared in a couple of months. This is something that probably could’ve been done faster by adding one more developer, but only if you could get them in the same place/timezone to avoid communication breakdown and stepping on each other’s toes. It required some fairly specialised knowledge, including calculus and inexact floating-point maths, as well as understanding how MAME’s render targets and layout elements work. I really appreciate hap testing it and catching a few issues before I did (or before I missed them and they made it into a release).

I’ve worked on some systems in MAME that you might think no-one cares about, like the Osborne 1 and INTELLEC 4, but it’s really important that MAME emulates these things, because nothing else does. The popular systems often have their own emulators and aren’t in any real danger of being forgotten. For a lot of less popular systems, MAME is all there is. I often pick up relatively easy systems that can be emulated just by working off the schematic. I really appreciate that we’ve got people like P-Mack who take on far more complex systems, like InterPro, NEWS, Jazz, etc.

Despite these forums being pretty much dead, MAME is very much alive. There’s more development happening than ever. I mean, that’s why we’ve had to streamline the release process – the old process just wasn’t scaling with the amount happening these days. MAME 0.226 has been a pretty popular release, with thousands of downloads on the first day. MAME has made it through two decades, and I’m going to make sure we can get at least another decade out of it.



lharms
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388408 - 11/02/20 12:12 AM


> That’s not how progress happens. You can’t just throw people at a problem. It’s even harder to throw people at a problem if you can’t get them in the same room or even the same timezone.

Did not say that. I said make a 'theme' basically get people to agree to work on sections for a few days... Maybe pick some high profile systems/background areas to pick on? Then have at the end of the month sprint say 'hey we did this cool theme too in addition to all this other cool stuff'. Having some of the other newer 'popular' systems does show others that the 'obscure' stuff exists too.

The background stuff is good things to work on. It is leaps and bounds better than what was there. I also understand it is a hobby. The obscure systems are interesting too, but you have to understand your audience is going to be smaller? I personally find it cool but I also realize that I am into this junk. But I also realize I did not start there. I started with something that was familiar and branched out from there.

Or keep going...



RobbbertModerator
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: lharms]
#388409 - 11/02/20 01:57 AM


>



Renegade
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Robbbert]
#388410 - 11/02/20 03:01 AM


> > basically get people to agree to work on sections for a few days...
>
> It will never work, telling people what to do. No matter how sensible
> or logical you think it is. It's worse than trying to herd cats. Unless
> you're willing to dangle a big fat paycheck out there.


^^^^ yeah absolutely correct ^^^^



Vas Crabb
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: lharms]
#388411 - 11/02/20 03:45 AM


> > That’s not how progress happens. You can’t just throw people at a problem. It’s
> even harder to throw people at a problem if you can’t get them in the same room or
> even the same timezone.
>
> Did not say that. I said make a 'theme' basically get people to agree to work on
> sections for a few days... Maybe pick some high profile systems/background areas to
> pick on? Then have at the end of the month sprint say 'hey we did this cool theme too
> in addition to all this other cool stuff'. Having some of the other newer 'popular'
> systems does show others that the 'obscure' stuff exists too.

You’re still thinking in terms of throwing people at a problem. At best, that will help with low-hanging fruit or obvious stuff that people missed. The low-hanging fruit is mostly gone, you can no longer get visible improvements by having a random person look at something for a few days. In the early days, MAME could get visible progress almost every day because there was a lot of really easy stuff that anyone could do. Twenty years later, the easy stuff has all been done.



gregf
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Re: MAME Opinions *edit* new [Re: lharms]
#388415 - 11/02/20 09:09 AM




>I said make a 'theme' basically get people to agree to work on sections for a few days..

Probably not practical or possible with examples already posted by others.

The last time there were probably larger number of devs involved in one item had to have been back in 2013. Maybe 4 or 5 (with Haze and Kale doing most, but I thought there were more names involved) with some throwing in their area of knowledge of the audio hardware, and others in video hardware emulation did their thing, and iirc maybe the emulated cpu code maybe required some minimal updating in order to get Cool Riders working. There is teamwork on various items. It seemed that Cool Riders was a rare example where more were involved iirc since the game was a unique one-of-a-kind hardware game unlike other Sega coinop games. Impressive work within a couple weeks of a game with no real visible output to finally showing a game screen of what game looks like.

--
Archive for February, 2013

https://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2013/02/


February 19, 2013
https://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2013/02/19/still-too-cool-for-mamedev/

Cool Riders by Sega


https://www.mamedev.org/releases/whatsnew_0149.txt

0.148u2
--

New games added or promoted from NOT_WORKING status
--

Cool Riders [David Haywood, Angelo Salese]

----



>but you have to understand your audience is going to be smaller?

The audience numbers was getting smaller after various popular systems such as CPS-2, CPS-3, Sega 16, 18, 32 games were emulated over the years. It wasn't surprising the number of followers would move on since their popular games had been emulated to their liking. Hard to say if that is beneficial or not when thinking what the years from 2000 to 2006 were like when the repetitive CPS-2 or CPS-3 questions continuously appeared on various forums.

Edited by gregf (11/02/20 01:24 PM)



Vas Crabb
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: gregf]
#388418 - 11/02/20 11:17 AM


> The last time there were a number of devs involved in one item had to have been back
> in 2013. Maybe 4 or 5 with contributor throwing in their area of knowledge in audio
> hardware, while others in video hardware emulation did their thing, and iirc the
> emulated cpu code maybe required some minimal updating in order to get Cool Riders
> working. But this was a rare example and reason why number of contributors was it was
> a unique one-of-a-kind hardware game unlike other Sega coinop games.

Do you seriously think people haven’t helped each other out in the last seven years? You remind me of the Mark Twain quote, “it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to talk and remove all doubt.”

edit: Let’s think of some obvious examples since then.

MooglyGuy got Uncle Phil’s Konami M2 in line with the current source, hap helped isolate a DRC crash, and I fixed the crash. Four people, right there.

The recent netlist work has involved Couriersud, Aaron, Colin Howell and this beta-tester guy. Again, four people.

Getting device type validation in and supporting -verifyroms and -romident for device ROMs was a real group effort, with work from OG, AJR, Osso and me.

Although you wouldn’t understand what’s involved or why it’s important, converting the machine configuration and address maps to idiomatic C++ was a bit group effort, with major contributions from me, OG, Osso, AJR and MooglyGuy. This has done a lot to improve productivity and make the codebase more approachable for new contributors.

You must have a pretty low opinion of us if you think the last time any of us worked together was over half a decade ago.



Olivier Galibert
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388420 - 11/02/20 03:55 PM


> You’re still thinking in terms of throwing people at a problem. At best, that will
> help with low-hanging fruit or obvious stuff that people missed. The low-hanging
> fruit is mostly gone, you can no longer get visible improvements by having a random
> person look at something for a few days. In the early days, MAME could get visible
> progress almost every day because there was a lot of really easy stuff that anyone
> could do. Twenty years later, the easy stuff has all been done.

Yeah, at that point, nothing is easy. Kind of sad, but it's the truth.



Shoegazr
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#388422 - 11/02/20 08:52 PM


> You must have a pretty low opinion of us if you think the last time any of us worked
> together was over half a decade ago.

Vas, while I do agree with you that mamedev have collaborated on many useful and successful projects since 2013 as your facts show, I'm sure gregf's comments were the result of simple human oversight rather than someone with a "low opinion" of the devs with any deliberate interest in sparring. I mean, this is our gregf we're talking about here? I think we could find enough evidence to the contrary in any given week's worth of his enthusiastic posts going back.. hmm.. decades?



Haze
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Robbbert]
#388438 - 11/03/20 06:50 PM


> > basically get people to agree to work on sections for a few days...
>
> It will never work, telling people what to do. No matter how sensible
> or logical you think it is. It's worse than trying to herd cats. Unless
> you're willing to dangle a big fat paycheck out there.

This also assumes all devs are motivated by money.

If anything I find it demotivating.

I work on what I work on because my general feeling is it's at risk, is often unpopular, and isn't going to get done unless I put some effort into doing it. My motivation is "what will people have to refer to in 30 years from now, how can I help with that?"



Haze
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#388439 - 11/03/20 06:55 PM


> * stop working on all these useless TV consoles or gambling games.

The more people say this the more I realise how important it is we keep at it.

People would let these rot given the choice.

MAME is all about preventing that. The targets might have shifted based on our experience and learning where MAME can help the most, but the motivation remains the same.

The things people pull up as being harmful to MAME has shifted over the years too.

Back when MAME started, it was mostly early 80s stuff, the core people who were attracted by that didn't want 16-bit games, those apparently caused problems, they were making the emulation of the 8-bit titles slower etc.

Those into late 80s early 90s arcades were then later heavily criticising us for adding later 90s 'bullet hell' shooters, because they were just unfair coin guzzlers with no real value.

Non-Japanese audiences wouldn't let go of this notion that we were only focusing on Mahjong games (even if most of that work was done by a handful of devs, mostly Japanese ones)

Then it was gambling games, now it's TV games.

The reality is MAME thrives off these things as they set it apart from everything else. It's genuine preservation work, the saving of our history, work others aren't bothering to do. MAME's stance on these things makes MAME a safe place for people to contribute, knowing what they're doing, even for 'unpopular' material will be safe for generations.



Haze
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Renegade]
#388440 - 11/03/20 07:30 PM


> But as an old timer to me mame has become bloat ware, mean no disrespect just
> voicing my opinion, Mame drew people because of the gaming side not because it
> emulated a ATM machine. Lets go back at look at when it started to decline, shortly
> after mess and merging then all the added electronic hardware. The number of
> downloads, the number of posts etc, this was easy to see as when people brought up
> their opinions of all this added electronics on the boards they were quickly torn
> down by some of the mame devs for their opinions and many just gave up or left.
>

The decline started long before then.

I'd already noticed the decline at the point where I started pushing the UltimateMAME / UME builds, and the writing on the wall for the arcade side of things was already there; arcades had mostly moved to PC based platforms and other tech MAME was ill-suited to emulate.

These forums were already on the decline, and even then the work on arcade stuff that was being done was generally not appreciated with, as Tafoid says, most posts simply being to ask about something else whenever progress was announced (this is not a new phenomenon)

Had MAME stayed 'on course' the only difference is that MAME would have followed that trajectory of decline, with not much interesting to write home about at all, and a decaying codebase that wasn't all that useful outside of MAME because a lot of the code wasn't well tested outside of limited use cases provided by arcades.

Of course on these forums that decline continued, because these forums were primarily people with an interest in what MAME was doing before, however MAME managed to escape that decline itself by being aware enough of what was coming to evolve into what you have today.

If anything the change happened maybe 3-4 years too late and let other projects, such as RetroArch get a foot in and hoover up all the Android based developers etc. by offering something with the illusion of having a wider, more relevant scope of appeal to newcomers at a time MAME had not, however in recent years we've at least made up some of that ground without compromising our internal values the same way RA's approach does.

MAME is an exciting project to different groups of people now, groups that often tend to be under-represented, but where the work being done is important to them.


------------------------------

The next part of this doesn't really represent my opinion, but as it's something I've heard a few times, I'll put it here anyway.

I've had others say to me that MAME pandering to the demands of various people in the arcade scene is what has 'killed' the arcade side of the project (and thus what they know as 'MAME') more than anything else.

One person recently said to me the moment we dropped Danger Express after it had been submitted, even after they'd downloaded the ROM, entirely because somebody claimed the dump was from their board and couldn't be included, was the moment showed that the project had lost every bit of its original spirit.

Likewise it has been mentioned more than once that by not including a lot of the recently surfaced Japanese things that have been shown on the page of a well known collector that "must surely be dumped" we're putting the feelings and egos of one or two over the core project values and the benefit to the majority. They'll point at some leaked Sega ROMs as proof of this. Similar argument gets put forward for the final couple of games / revisions on the Cave SH3 hardware not being public yet, and NeoGeo (NGDevTeam stuff etc.) where there was an obvious change in policy over what got dumped / emulated.

The claims are basically that MAME has allowed powerful figures in the arcade scene and industry to kill that side of MAME for their own benefit, by locking everything up, rather than acting in the spirit of the project prior and that MAMEdevs have basically been complicit in that, allowing it to be almost an inside job by having ties too close to them. MAME no longer has 'an edge' as they put it, MAME isn't willing to make tough decisions if they affect 'important' people.

Given the sheer number of improvements to older things in MAME, I can't really say I agree too much with all of that, it's certainly not hindered progress on bringing plenty of platforms much closer to perfection, but I guess that dangling of carrots for unemulated games and knowing things weren't always like that has left a stronger bitter taste in the mouths of some than the real progress makes up for in their opinion.



uman
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Haze]
#388443 - 11/04/20 02:29 AM



> The reality is MAME thrives off these things as they set it apart from everything
> else. It's genuine preservation work, the saving of our history, work others aren't
> bothering to do. MAME's stance on these things makes MAME a safe place for people to
> contribute, knowing what they're doing, even for 'unpopular' material will be safe
> for generations.

I hope and wish that this will be true for the future.
Especially, if we take the music/synths stuff in MAME for example.

I once asked the devs in the past, if there will be any chances to see ROM/RAM and PCM Waveform cards dumped for synthesizers that use them (like Korg Wavestation, Roland JD-JV series etc.), once those systems will get emulated.
Short answer was, it will unlikely happen, which is sad.

Even now these cards are rare and cost a fortune and in some near future they will cost the equivalent to their hardware synthesizers. The only reason why those cards are not copied/dumped, is because musicians have no clue how to do this. I would gladly even spend money in a project that could establish this, in a reasonable manner.

I really like any improvement or new added music hardware, but i dont understand why you would not do these cards. This would really add value to MAME, as none professional emulation of these synthesizers, has support for these cards. I know only the Korg Legacy Collection, that have such a feature, but only for the cards from Korg itself.

So why only emulating something, that is already emulated by other parties, if you could do it better, just by having those cards?

Especially the PCM Wavecards add great value to those synthesizers, because you have not only sounds (that you could probably create on your own), you have NEW waveforms that enable new possibilities you would not have otherwise.



Haze
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: uman]
#388448 - 11/04/20 11:09 AM


> > The reality is MAME thrives off these things as they set it apart from everything
> > else. It's genuine preservation work, the saving of our history, work others aren't
> > bothering to do. MAME's stance on these things makes MAME a safe place for people
> to
> > contribute, knowing what they're doing, even for 'unpopular' material will be safe
> > for generations.
>
> I hope and wish that this will be true for the future.
> Especially, if we take the music/synths stuff in MAME for example.
>
> I once asked the devs in the past, if there will be any chances to see ROM/RAM and
> PCM Waveform cards dumped for synthesizers that use them (like Korg Wavestation,
> Roland JD-JV series etc.), once those systems will get emulated.
> Short answer was, it will unlikely happen, which is sad.
>
> Even now these cards are rare and cost a fortune and in some near future they will
> cost the equivalent to their hardware synthesizers. The only reason why those cards
> are not copied/dumped, is because musicians have no clue how to do this. I would
> gladly even spend money in a project that could establish this, in a reasonable
> manner.
>
> I really like any improvement or new added music hardware, but i dont understand why
> you would not do these cards. This would really add value to MAME, as none
> professional emulation of these synthesizers, has support for these cards. I know
> only the Korg Legacy Collection, that have such a feature, but only for the cards
> from Korg itself.
>
> So why only emulating something, that is already emulated by other parties, if you
> could do it better, just by having those cards?
>
> Especially the PCM Wavecards add great value to those synthesizers, because you have
> not only sounds (that you could probably create on your own), you have NEW waveforms
> that enable new possibilities you would not have otherwise.

I don't know much about that side of things, but I'm sure as long as they get dumped at some point they'll be emulated eventually too. As you note, cost (and maybe a lack of documentation if the cards would be needed to study, rather than just 'being dumped') is probably a major issue.



Olivier Galibert
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: uman]
#388473 - 11/06/20 11:39 PM


We have nothing against emulating synths, rather to the contrary. It's just that the dumps of synths are rare and often incomplete. Not a lot we can do about that.



Envisaged0ne
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: uman]
#388475 - 11/07/20 03:21 AM


See, and this goes to the point that's made in this thread. People have something they want emulated. Something a lot of us don't give a shit about. No offense, but a lot of people ask for something they care about, and act as if the mame devs just don't care if they aren't working on it. And if you have no way to contribute, then just let them work on what they can, and want, to work on. If you're passionate about something enough, then learn how you can contribute...otherwise it's not really that important

Edited by Envisaged0ne (11/07/20 03:22 AM)



hider93228
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Envisaged0ne]
#389105 - 12/22/20 06:21 PM


Mameworld for noob users.

This became upside down.

World = W = M = Merda in Portuguese.

MameMerda?

The Chinese Vírus is making everyone dizzy.

Merry Christmas.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 2261
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: hider93228]
#389106 - 12/22/20 06:26 PM


> Mameworld for noob users.
>
> This became upside down.
>
> World = W = M = Merda in Portuguese.
>
> MameMerda?
>
> The Chinese Vírus is making everyone dizzy.

You strike me as the kind of person who could have been responsible for the Goiânia accident



hider93228
MAME Fan
Reged: 07/05/20
Posts: 7
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#389108 - 12/22/20 06:49 PM


> > Mameworld for noob users.
> >
> > This became upside down.
> >
> > World = W = M = Merda in Portuguese.
> >
> > MameMerda?
> >
> > The Chinese Vírus is making everyone dizzy.
>
> You strike me as the kind of person who could have been responsible for the Goiânia
> accident

I have nothing to do with that.



bmd2k1
MAME Fan
Reged: 12/13/20
Posts: 10
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Tafoid]
#389111 - 12/22/20 08:14 PM


Major Thanks to all the MAME contributors past, present & future.

My kids & moi have been enjoying MAME games for many years now -- and ALL Your Efforts & Hard work have made it possible!

Thank You!



hider93228
MAME Fan
Reged: 07/05/20
Posts: 7
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Re: MAME Opinions new [Re: Chine]
#389127 - 12/23/20 01:23 PM


> Your answer is exactly why there's no interest in Mame now.
>
> Give me back April fools, funny threads, wip pages like 15 years ago.
>
> You're killing MAME by not listening users.
>
> It's a very sad day today for an early fan like me.

This maybe let you calm down a bit?
https://arcade.mameworld.info/index.html
I'm good using what we have.


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