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MAME Punk
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Great Swordsman
#385511 - 03/13/20 03:59 AM
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Ok, I hate to go about it like this, but I have waited and tried asking the only people I know to and am still concerned.
For those that don't know, this is the background.
https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post374833
I ended up sending Smitdogg 3 chips the two 8041's (AA-016@9C and AA-017@9G) and the 8741 ([email protected]).
As far as I understand caps0ff was able to get a dump or readout of AA-016 and it was simply assumed the other chips shared the same code but once the driver was changed to reflect that it became non-working!
Now, I'm not saying they don't all share that code but as a project of preservation I would expect that to be verified instead of assumed.
If ANYONE can chime in and either correct me or explain the situation it would be greatly appreciated!
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There is no law in the arena
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It makes no sense that a manufacturer would have 3 MCUs on the board all with identical code (especially if one of them is a different MCU to the other 2)
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> Ok, I hate to go about it like this, but I have waited and tried asking the only
> people I know to and am still concerned.
>
> For those that don't know, this is the background.
>
> https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post374833
>
> I ended up sending Smitdogg 3 chips the two 8041's (AA-016@9C and AA-017@9G) and the
> 8741 ([email protected]).
>
> As far as I understand CAPS0ff was able to get a dump or readout of AA-016 and it was
> assumed the other chips shared the same code but once the driver was changed to
> reflect that it became non-working!
>
> Now, I'm not saying they don't all share that code but as a project of preservation I
> would expect that to be verified instead of assumed.
>
> If ANYONE can chime in and either correct me or explain the situation it would be
> greatly appreciated!
If you ask the Mamedevs questions like that, they get twitchy and start calling you names, like "rom kiddie". [/half-joking]
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"Note to Noobs:
We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: jonwil]
#385522 - 03/14/20 04:34 AM
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> It makes no sense that a manufacturer would have 3 MCUs on the board all with
> identical code (especially if one of them is a different MCU to the other 2)
Actually, it would make sense if they were of the mask-programmed variety. Custom-masked parts were never cost-effective unless you were prepared to order them in great quantities before making any revisions. It sometimes happened that when companies had two MCU programs, neither of which took up too much of the code space or used all of the input pins, they would fold both MCU programs into one mode-switchable package. This is what I suspect might be the case with Super Real Mahjong Part 2's X0-005, which I believe to be an undumped UPI-41 MCU that serves as an ADPCM player in one place and a keyboard scanner in another.
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MAME Punk
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: AJR Hacker]
#385523 - 03/14/20 05:52 AM
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Again, I'm not saying they are not the same.
I am simply asking since they have the other 2 chips and (to my understanding simply read the one out without too much work), wouldn't the correct thing to do be read out or attempt a dump of the other 2 chips before assuming they are all the same?
If this was done and just never disclosed, I would be satisfied to hear that.
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There is no law in the arena
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: jonwil]
#385532 - 03/15/20 06:51 PM
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> It makes no sense that a manufacturer would have 3 MCUs on the board all with
> identical code (especially if one of them is a different MCU to the other 2)
So sega model1 and model2a don't make sense. Could be argued, I guess.
OG.
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I've sent a PM. We should have a public update in a few weeks.
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MAME Punk
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Greatly Appreciated! NT
[Re: caps0ff]
#385594 - 03/20/20 01:37 AM
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NT
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There is no law in the arena
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: caps0ff]
#385612 - 03/22/20 04:56 AM
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Triage update: I was very careful collecting data on the new PCB using a non-invasive analysis technique. Data confirms the readout pins are damaged (ie intentionally by the manufacturer) on all three chips of interest:
AA-013 (8741)
AA-016 (8041AH)
AA-017 (8041AH)
I tried to read data out anyway and was unsuccessful (this worked on at least one chip previously).
With that in mind, this is the strategy moving forward. 8041AH can be read out optically, although its a bit noisy. However, we have several sets now (2 or 3 in inventory) which should dramatically improve accuracy. We'll sort through the data we already have and collect new data as necessary.
Note some preliminary data indicates there may be 8041AH ROM variants, but this needs to be confirmed. If so it will be addressed at that time.
Short term focus will be on 8041AH since it has a relatively straightforward path to generate dumps. 8741 will likely require microprobing which we are able to do. Unfortunately the pad driver is relatively complex. If someone is interested in analyzing the 8741 die, especially around EA, it would significantly help that project. Otherwise we plan to adopt a "guess and check" probing strategy on a sample chip which may also work.
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: jonwil]
#385613 - 03/22/20 11:48 AM
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> It makes no sense that a manufacturer would have 3 MCUs on the board all with
> identical code
If you need 3 MCU's and there is enough space in ROM to handle the code for them, then economy of scale means it's cheaper to make them all identically.
There are examples where manufacturers create chips using one die for multiple customers and just tell them to strap pins to ground/5v to select the correct one.
> (especially if one of them is a different MCU to the other 2)
The 8041 is mask rom and the 8741 is otp eprom, so it's likely the 8741 does have a different program. The code in the 8041 is likely an earlier version.
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: caps0ff]
#385618 - 03/23/20 02:22 AM
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Thank you so much for this!
Even if nothing more comes of it, at least now I don't feel like it was all a waste.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: caps0ff]
#385623 - 03/23/20 09:55 AM
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>Note some preliminary data indicates there may be 8041AH ROM variants, but this needs to be
>confirmed. If so it will be addressed at that time.
>Short term focus will be on 8041AH since it has a relatively straightforward path to
>generate dumps. 8741 will likely require microprobing which we are able to do.
>Unfortunately the pad driver is relatively complex. If someone is interested in analyzing
>the 8741 die, especially around EA, it would significantly help that project. Otherwise we
>plan to adopt a "guess and check" probing strategy on a sample chip which may also work.
Thanks, (also to TeamE as well) for tackling this stuff. It is impressive to read and see photos of the effort involved to carefully extract (read rom data) data in order to get many of the various video games preserved properly.
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: caps0ff]
#385749 - 04/02/20 08:24 AM
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A new AA-016 and a new AA-017 have been decapped. Good news: the contrast is much better so far! Specific cause hasn't been investigated.
Anyway, is anyone interested helping digitize the images into bits? This can be done either by manually typing out all 8192 bits or (preferred) using the rompar utility: https://github.com/AdamLaurie/rompar
If you're interested, here is the AA-017 data: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QQ5s1RxOhFxBJ1J4yRbN3V_j19atNNGk
Specifically:
-Only C032 needs to be digitized. You probably should work off of nec_8041ah_gswm_aa-017_decap-c032_xpol.jpg, but nec_8041ah_gswm_aa-017_decap-c032.jpg could be useful if the image is hard to read
-Multiple submissions are fine: we can combine results to see which bits need attention
-There are at least some stitching artifacts. If they get in the way of digitizing I can revisit stitching
-Please provide rompar project file so we can post process into bin. We can provide instructions if necessary
-rompar_decap-8_rom_mit20x_xpol is provided as a reference project. Note the image contrast wasn't great, so there were a lot of errors
Edited by caps0ff (04/02/20 08:27 AM)
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Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: caps0ff]
#385758 - 04/03/20 05:33 AM
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Please make a post on your site to gather more attention.
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Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: caps0ff]
#385774 - 04/04/20 12:44 AM
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Re: Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: Stiletto]
#385775 - 04/04/20 12:51 AM
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Re: Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: caps0ff]
#385777 - 04/04/20 05:03 AM
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No simple Windows option is mistake, I always try to contribute at least a couple of hours, often more to typing monkey projects.
But after wasting over an hour setup Hyper-v, download Ubuntu, and configuring VM, only to run into a install issue, just not worth the effort for the average Joe that doesn't run Linux.
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If all else fails, Burn the manual.
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: caps0ff]
#385789 - 04/05/20 09:12 AM
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: caps0ff]
#385807 - 04/06/20 09:18 AM
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We tentatively have enough submissions to decode the ROMs, assuming a few people we know are working on them finish. Thanks to all of those that have submitted and we'll try to post an update in the near future!
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Re: Calling ALL Typing Monkeys!!!
[Re: taz-nz]
#385813 - 04/06/20 05:05 PM
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> No simple Windows option is mistake, I always try to contribute at least a couple of
> hours, often more to typing monkey projects.
>
> But after wasting over an hour setup Hyper-v, download Ubuntu, and configuring VM,
> only to run into a install issue, just not worth the effort for the average Joe that
> doesn't run Linux.
Indeed. Even managing to get the attention of a few hundred retrogaming enthusiasts through social media, I doubt that many of them would be able to even get it started, which leads to automatic discouragement (and probable dismissal of future similar endeavours).
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I just wanted to thank everyone that contributed to this project!
I bought the first boardset over ten years ago, that's hard to believe! Now all this time later I am finally seeing it being preserved.
My brother and I spent a Summer playing this game in the mid 80's while we were visiting our Aunt.
We would walk about a mile every day to a gas station just to play it.
And so it holds a place in my heart!
I never expected anyone to care so much about the game as me and so I just want to say to everyone that contributed or even tried to help, THANK YOU!
This is 100% the purpose of MAME!
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> I just wanted to thank everyone that contributed to this project!
It’s definitely been an interesting adventure. There are all kinds of secrets and hints about the development process hidden in these microcontrollers. The unused parts of the code can be more interesting than the parts that are actually used.
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| gregf |
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http://caps0ff.blogspot.com/2020/04/you-are-great-swordsman.html
After reading the blog entry, I have to give credit to Great Swordsman hardware designers for making the protection a tough challenge. I say Seibu was one of the more effective ones, if not the best, when looking at how long it took to get games such as Raiden II etc emulated as best possible.
Good luck to capsoff with 8741 mcu whenever that gets worked on.
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: gregf]
#385935 - 04/16/20 02:14 PM
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> http://caps0ff.blogspot.com/2020/04/you-are-great-swordsman.html
>
> After reading the blog entry, I have to give credit to Great Swordsman hardware
> designers for making the protection a tough challenge. I say Seibu was one of the
> more effective ones, if not the best, when looking at how long it took to get games
> such as Raiden II etc emulated as best possible.
>
>
> Good luck to capsoff with 8741 mcu whenever that gets worked on.
Speaking of Seibu's games, Seibu Cup Soccer still isn't fully emulated, though.
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Re: Great Swordsman
[Re: Master O]
#385937 - 04/16/20 03:12 PM
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> > http://caps0ff.blogspot.com/2020/04/you-are-great-swordsman.html
> >
> > After reading the blog entry, I have to give credit to Great Swordsman hardware
> > designers for making the protection a tough challenge. I say Seibu was one of the
> > more effective ones, if not the best, when looking at how long it took to get games
> > such as Raiden II etc emulated as best possible.
> >
> >
> > Good luck to capsoff with 8741 mcu whenever that gets worked on.
>
> Speaking of Seibu's games, Seibu Cup Soccer still isn't fully emulated, though.
Neither Seibu nor Atari GT. Both seems to be equvalent in terms of toughness
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