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Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
#382458 - 05/13/19 10:39 PM Attachment: InvDeath.mp3 104 KB (4 downloads)
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Hi everyone
I've been meaning to bring this to the attention of folks in the Mame community for a while now, and I hope this is the place to mention it.
I used to own an original invaders cabinet, and every time I've played pretty much any emulation of Space Invaders, Mame included, I've winced as they just don't sound like I remember it.
My main gripe is the invader death sounds.
I went digging around YouTube, and THIS is the invaders that I remember:
https://youtu.be/DJMr36hLY38?t=68
Now if you listen carefully, you will notice that there are two different and distinct invader death sounds - Not one.
Every emulated version of Invaders seems to use just one sample for 'invader death' and that can't emulate the game I remember correctly.
I've cut up the YouTube video, and I'll try to post a sound file to this Forum post so you can hear the two separate death sounds for yourself.
Thanks
Chris
Edited by Van Diesel (05/13/19 10:45 PM)
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: Van Diesel]
#382459 - 05/13/19 10:47 PM
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: ICEknight]
#382461 - 05/14/19 07:59 AM
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Thank you for the link, ICEknight.
It looks like the developers are aware of this exact issue.
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: Van Diesel]
#382462 - 05/14/19 07:59 PM
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I logged that bug. Short version: Just from listening to different videos of real machines, and a couple trips to California Extreme, it would appear that when Midway licensed the game, they built their own discrete sound components instead of reproducing Taito’s. When MAME added discrete sound emulation for Space Invaders, it sounds to have been based on a Midway board. Every version that uses the discrete emulation instead of the old samples plays the Midway sounds (which themselves don’t sound exactly like real Midway machines, either).
When the game used sound samples in MAME, it used the Taito sounds, but only one sample of each sound, which is also inaccurate. As you pointed out, the sounds are not absolutely identical every time. I have no idea how the sound actually works, but the invader death sound (probably both Taito’s and Midway’s, but most obviously Taito’s) seems to start/end in different places each time you hear it.
Do you live outside the USA? Taito distributed the game everywhere else, and as with that UK version, it appears they all used the “Taito” sounds. It would also appear that most bootlegs were based on the Taito components too - the Midway sounds appear to be unique to official Midway boards.
The solution would be for someone to write additional code to emulate the discrete sound of a Taito board, and implement that emulation in all non-Midway versions in place of what is there now. There is actually a TODO comment in the 8080bw.cpp driver code saying that the Taito and Midway sound boards still need to be compared:
Code:
To Do:
-----
- Midway PCB sets
* The discrete components, particularly for the shot sound, differ
between Taito and Midway audio daughterboards.
+ Figure out the difference between the Taito and Midway discrete
boards and emulate them both properly.
+ Figure out what the current discrete setup is trying to emulate.
Edited by TServo2049 (05/14/19 10:12 PM)
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| gregf |
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: TServo2049]
#382466 - 05/15/19 01:20 AM
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Well written informative report since it provides detailed explanations.
--
https://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6590
When discrete sound emulation was added to invaders in 0.114u2, it was based on a Midway board. However, Taito boards had different sound effects (most notably the sound of destroying an invader).
Video footage of various bootlegs/clone PCBs found online (e.g., Cosmic Monsters, Space War) shows that they are also derived from the Taito sounds; even when they vary from official Taito boards and from each other, they sound like variations of the Taito sounds and not the Midway ones.
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>it would appear that when Midway licensed the game, they built their own discrete sound
>components instead of reproducing Taito’s. When MAME added discrete sound emulation for
>Space Invaders, it sounds to have been based on a Midway board. Every version that uses
>the discrete emulation instead of the old samples plays the Midway sounds (which
>themselves don’t sound exactly like real Midway machines, either).
>When the game used sound samples in MAME, it used the Taito sounds, but only one sample
>of each sound, which is also inaccurate. As you pointed out, the sounds are not
>absolutely identical every time. I have no idea how the sound actually works, but the
>invader death sound (probably both Taito’s and Midway’s, but most obviously Taito’s)
>seems to start/end in different places each time you hear it.
*for any folks that weren't following MAME emulation in 2007*
Back in 2007, Zsolt Vasvari [former dev] and Derrick Renaud were working together when the Midway 8080 games were separated to their own new file of mw8080.cpp from the 8080bw.cpp source file.
Zsolt was moving around the Midway 8080 games while Derrick Renaud was doing the discrete analog audio sound effects and adding those to various Midway 8080 hardware games. Derrick was using already online scanned pdf files of Midway logic schematics from those large size foldout schematics sheets that would be supplied with shipped Midway 8080 hardware games. Other schematics sheets such as Amazing Maze and others were actually mailed to Derrick (resides in Ontario region of Canada) to do discrete audio emulation.
Both Zsolt and Derrick did a fair amount of quality work with the Midway 8080 update at the time. A lot of the Midway games did not have any audio emulated until about 2007. Still a lot more of Midway discrete/analog audio needing to be done, but who knows when.
>The solution would be for someone to write additional code to emulate the discrete sound
>of a Taito board, and implement that emulation in all non-Midway versions in place of
>what is there now.
Yep. Good luck with someone having to determine the components of the Japanese region hardware to seeing how to do analog audio emulation from the logic schematics in case the person can't get access to the actual components for testing in this day and age.
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: gregf]
#382467 - 05/15/19 05:47 AM
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> Yep. Good luck with someone having to determine the components of the Japanese
> region hardware to seeing how to do analog audio emulation from the logic schematics
> in case the person can't get access to the actual components for testing in this day
> and age.
It doesn’t have to even be a Japanese one per se. The Taito export boards seem to be the same or similar, so someone could check, say, a UK machine. (Though someone does own a Japanese cocktail that shows up at California Extreme.)
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Thanks all for your input - I'll add the PCB schematic here for interest. The 'Target Hit' circuitry. (It includes 'UFO Hit' for a comparison).
Initial glance looks like an oscillator with a one-shot.
From my knowledge of circuitry (and from listening to the difference between the sounds in question), I would GUESS that other Invader boards would have this same circuitry but different component values, as the invader 'hit' sound appears to be based on a faster oscillation than what is heard from the Taito unit.
[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: Van Diesel]
#382474 - 05/15/19 06:06 PM
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Just to be clear, your picture is a schematic for a Taito board and not a Midway one? Because having even a Taito schematic is at least a start for anyone who wants to do this.
If yours is Taito, then could someone post a Midway schematic here for comparison if they have one?
Edited by TServo2049 (05/15/19 06:07 PM)
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Tafoid |
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: TServo2049]
#382475 - 05/15/19 06:14 PM
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> Just to be clear, your picture is a schematic for a Taito board and not a Midway one?
> Because having even a Taito schematic is at least a start for anyone who wants to do
> this.
>
> If yours is Taito, then could someone post a Midway schematic here for comparison if
> they have one?
Schematics in arcade manuals (assuming what was posted was snipped from and not proofread/compared to an actual board?) are not always correct and have been known to not be 100% accurate in all instances. It happens much more than anyone would care to admit. What this would take is direct examination, translation and proofreading of the sound sections of the board to ensure accuracy.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: Tafoid]
#382477 - 05/15/19 08:32 PM
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>Schematics in arcade manuals (assuming what was posted was snipped from and not
>proofread/compared to an actual board?) are not always correct and have been known to not
>be 100% accurate in all instances. It happens much more than anyone would care to admit.
>What this would take is direct examination, translation and proofreading of the sound
>sections of the board to ensure accuracy.
Yep. Numerous past examples. The amusing one iirc was when Juergen B. was trying to do Atari Space Race simulation in spring 2009 and posting results on emuchat forum while referring to using schematics from an Atari Space Race second revision manual and the schematics had many multiple mistakes in that particular manual.
It got to the point where one of the posters on the forum had asked was: "Atari trying to sabotage Space Race cab owners into accidentally destroying their Space Race cabs if using that specific manual to do pcb repairs?"
This is the stuff that Derrick Renaud had predicted back in his post from 2003 of the challenges facing non-cpu emulation at the time. Derrick basically stated don't rely on paperwork alone. If a pcb that is for future emulation is accessible, get it and use it first before relying on schematics.
There is also another factor that folks might overlook. Gyrovision had purchased Sega Congo Bongo pcbs in order to make improved audio recording external sample sound effects that were to be used with MAME. One of the Congo Bongo pcbs wasn't working. Gyrovision had eventually noticed that the non-working Congo Bongo pcb had a previous butchered repair job in which the Congo Bongo pcb had parts that were not compatible with Congo Bongo pcb.
So there might be a rare occasion where it might not be misprints/typos in schematics, but actual previous piss-poor quality pcb repair work done by someone that had no business in pcb repair work. :-)
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: Tafoid]
#382479 - 05/15/19 09:21 PM
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> Schematics in arcade manuals (assuming what was posted was snipped from and not
> proofread/compared to an actual board?) are not always correct and have been known to
> not be 100% accurate in all instances. It happens much more than anyone would care to
> admit. What this would take is direct examination, translation and proofreading of
> the sound sections of the board to ensure accuracy.
I agree with all of this. I did say “a start,” after all. 
As I’ve said before, it seems like the non-USA export boards distributed by Taito have the “Taito” sound effects, so there’s at least hope this won’t require tracking down a Japanese board.
Edited by TServo2049 (05/15/19 09:23 PM)
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| TrevEB |
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Re: Space Invaders emulation - Invaders death sound is wrong
[Re: gregf]
#382508 - 05/19/19 09:35 PM
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Actually...
There are 2 or 3 sounds that various from hit to hit. Most of the time its a 2 part sound effect but occasionally you’ll hear a 3 lower octave tone.
Something like;
Low, high
Low, high
Low, deep low, high
Imagine if emulation got to a point where mame could listen to your game and tell you which transistor is failing causing the sound effects to squeal or drop out.
Bish bash bosh! Fixed!
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