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MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
#364362 - 03/18/17 06:42 AM
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: uVSthem]
#364363 - 03/18/17 06:52 AM
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#364370 - 03/18/17 02:13 PM
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> http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
And, you know, just to jump on my soapbox for a second, the whole situation pisses me off because it makes me realize how stupid average people are and how intellectually bankrupt the majority of gaming "news" sites are.
I've seen several gaming "news" sites report that Primal Rage 2 is now emulated. They don't give a fuck that it's achieved with ugly hacks. They don't give a fuck that it doesn't necessarily reflect how the hardware works. They don't give a fuck that more technically involved and technically impressive things go into MAME fairly regularly.
I could name any number of things that have gone into MAME that in my opinion deserve coverage among the gaming media, but some dude "accomplishing" a MASH-like hack gets coverage. Motherfucker.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#364371 - 03/18/17 05:38 PM
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> >
> http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
>
> And, you know, just to jump on my soapbox for a second, the whole situation pisses me
> off because it makes me realize how stupid average people are and how intellectually
> bankrupt the majority of gaming "news" sites are.
>
> I've seen several gaming "news" sites report that Primal Rage 2 is now emulated. They
> don't give a fuck that it's achieved with ugly hacks. They don't give a fuck that it
> doesn't necessarily reflect how the hardware works. They don't give a fuck that more
> technically involved and technically impressive things go into MAME fairly regularly.
>
> I could name any number of things that have gone into MAME that in my opinion deserve
> coverage among the gaming media, but some dude "accomplishing" a MASH-like hack gets
> coverage. Motherfucker.
Indeed, the only real coverage I saw of MAME's 20th anniversary was hijacked, mainly focusing on MAME emulating Primal Rage 2, ignoring everything else that has happened.
Had RL friends asking me about it too, saying we're on a roll for doing cool things with PGM2 and now this... yet neither is actually suitable for inclusion in MAME.
Considering all the cool stuff that IS being done, it's rather depressing.
(for PR2 I have no problem with what the guy did, he followed the rules, released the source etc. it's just the media coverage that has been disappointing, showing a complete lack of understanding)
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#364740 - 03/30/17 02:04 AM
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> >
> http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
>
> And, you know, just to jump on my soapbox for a second, the whole situation pisses me
> off because it makes me realize how stupid average people are and how intellectually
> bankrupt the majority of gaming "news" sites are.
>
> I've seen several gaming "news" sites report that Primal Rage 2 is now emulated. They
> don't give a fuck that it's achieved with ugly hacks. They don't give a fuck that it
> doesn't necessarily reflect how the hardware works. They don't give a fuck that more
> technically involved and technically impressive things go into MAME fairly regularly.
>
> I could name any number of things that have gone into MAME that in my opinion deserve
> coverage among the gaming media, but some dude "accomplishing" a MASH-like hack gets
> coverage. Motherfucker.
I'm really late in replying but whatever, average people are not "stupid" for not caring about technically impressive changes that result in what mostly are minute real world changes in execution. It shows you're really out of touch if you think the average video game player cares more to read about a sound chip has that been marginally improved due to a massive backend rewrite versus a hotly anticipated game that's been out of the spotlight for 20 years finally being playable due to 2 years of work, and I wouldn't put quotes around "accomplishing". It may not have been the cleanest way to do it but it was a valid and merited effort that deserves respect, even if it isn't how you would do it.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Dendy]
#364742 - 03/30/17 03:21 AM
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You may be right that he's out of touch, but basically what is being said is that it's a cheap hack that was already known about, isn't technically impressive at all and if someone spent 2 years figuring it out that's pretty bad. More importantly though, the thing you and others need to understand about hacks is they are like putting in a lie into the code. You say one lie and then you have to keep on coming up with more and more lies and remembering all your past lies to keep your story going until it implodes. It's like that with some hacks for example, could break other games at the expense of making 1 work, then is it good even for non-purists? No it's crap and you have to do things the right way.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#364747 - 03/30/17 11:22 AM
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> You may be right that he's out of touch, but basically what is being said is that
> it's a cheap hack that was already known about, isn't technically impressive at all
> and if someone spent 2 years figuring it out that's pretty bad. More importantly
> though, the thing you and others need to understand about hacks is they are like
> putting in a lie into the code. You say one lie and then you have to keep on coming
> up with more and more lies and remembering all your past lies to keep your story
> going until it implodes. It's like that with some hacks for example, could break
> other games at the expense of making 1 work, then is it good even for non-purists? No
> it's crap and you have to do things the right way.
Except the developer of this particular build never lied about what he did to get it running, in every video detailing on how this was done he mentions that it was a kludge, pieces of the original ZN2 driver had to be pulled out breaking other games etc etc. That's not a lie at all. Second of all if this shortcut was already known about it certainly wasn't known about to the general public or to the guy who spent 2 years making this hack so that's a non-starter isn't it? The majority of people believed it didn't work because the current dump was bad which wasn't true. I get what you mean in doing things the right way so future developments aren't built on a kludge but the point is that people (and I'm including companies in this, since there are more than enough retro compilations using high level emulation or even outright recompilation of the original code therefore not 'accurate' in the very least) don't care about how you get from point A to point B because it's point B they're interested in - actually playing the game.
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Reged: 01/16/15
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Dendy]
#364749 - 03/30/17 12:23 PM
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> Second of all if this shortcut was already known
> about it certainly wasn't known about to the general public or to the guy who spent 2
> years making this hack so that's a non-starter isn't it?
Getting it running requires a combination of hacks, some of them were known. He is the first to put it together in a usable form.
The question that was asked is:
"What's the deal with this? Is there any reason it's not included in the official MAME?"
The answer has been covered. It might be possible to special case the hacks, but that isn't ideal. So until he figures out a better way of doing it (or someone else does) then it's a standalone version.
> The majority of people
> believed it didn't work because the current dump was bad which wasn't true.
I don't remember anyone saying the dump was bad. The game seems to be written badly that it requires a level of timing accuracy that is beyond what we have right now.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Dendy]
#364753 - 03/30/17 03:22 PM
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>
> Except the developer of this particular build never lied about what he did to get it
> running,
I didn't say the author lied to the public. I said putting a hack in the source code is like putting a lie into the source code (simile).
> in every video detailing on how this was done he mentions that it was a
> kludge, pieces of the original ZN2 driver had to be pulled out breaking other games
> etc etc. That's not a lie at all.
You're correct, that isn't a lie. However I didn't call him a liar and additionally I didn't see that when I first watched a video so I think he added it later after the mamedev outcry, though still, nobody to my knowledge ever called him a liar.
> Second of all if this shortcut was already known
> about it certainly wasn't known about to the general public or to the guy who spent 2
> years making this hack so that's a non-starter isn't it?
No my point still stands that is isn't impressive as you said it is. I'm not trying to be a dick and I'm not a programmer so I couldn't do it either way but from an emulation difficulty perspective, if it took him 2 years to do a hack someone else did years ago in a few minutes to an hour, that by definition is not technically impressive.
> The majority of people
> believed it didn't work because the current dump was bad which wasn't true.
A lot of people think dumps are bad when a game doesn't work in mame yes but that just means all those people have a very terrible understanding of mame. I mean all you'd have to do is audit the game to see if it's believed to be a bad dump (right click menu in MAMEUI and other frontends).
> I get
> what you mean in doing things the right way so future developments aren't built on a
> kludge but the point is that people (and I'm including companies in this, since there
> are more than enough retro compilations using high level emulation or even outright
> recompilation of the original code therefore not 'accurate' in the very least) don't
> care about how you get from point A to point B because it's point B they're
> interested in - actually playing the game.
Yeah I'm not saying there is no point in a guy making a separate build with hacks to play 1 game, there is a point, you can play it.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#364790 - 03/31/17 02:01 PM
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> No my point still stands that is isn't impressive as you said it is. I'm not trying
> to be a dick and I'm not a programmer so I couldn't do it either way but from an
> emulation difficulty perspective, if it took him 2 years to do a hack someone else
> did years ago in a few minutes to an hour, that by definition is not technically
> impressive.
I'm not saying what he did was "technically impressive". I said it was a valid and merited effort that deserves more respect than just being brushed aside as a cheap hack since it accomplished what it was set out to do: get Primal Rage 2 to boot up and play. At no point did the author state his intention was to fix the playstation driver to be more accurate or something anyways so I don't get why to snub it on that basis. IIRC the reason also it took so long was that he had to go through and fix every instance of the game doing a bad DMA call and crashing, so he pretty much took the very long route of fixing the game (which still has a few crashes left).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfvGNv3J7Uk&feature=youtu.be
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Dendy]
#364793 - 03/31/17 02:47 PM
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> > No my point still stands that is isn't impressive as you said it is. I'm not trying
> > to be a dick and I'm not a programmer so I couldn't do it either way but from an
> > emulation difficulty perspective, if it took him 2 years to do a hack someone else
> > did years ago in a few minutes to an hour, that by definition is not technically
> > impressive.
>
> I'm not saying what he did was "technically impressive". I said it was a valid and
> merited effort that deserves more respect than just being brushed aside as a cheap
> hack since it accomplished what it was set out to do: get Primal Rage 2 to boot up
> and play. At no point did the author state his intention was to fix the playstation
> driver to be more accurate or something anyways so I don't get why to snub it on that
> basis. IIRC the reason also it took so long was that he had to go through and fix
> every instance of the game doing a bad DMA call and crashing, so he pretty much took
> the very long route of fixing the game (which still has a few crashes left).
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfvGNv3J7Uk&feature=youtu.be
I think what annoyed a fair number of people is that the Primal Rage 2 stuff ended up hijacking the 20th Anniversary coverage, so instead of focusing on what MAME had been doing for 20 years, or what MAME was actually doing now, half the things covering the 20th focused on something MAME wasn't doing at all.
Which was probably more bad timing than anything else.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: uVSthem]
#364794 - 03/31/17 03:09 PM
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> What's the deal with this? Is there any reason it's not included in the official
> MAME?
Speaking as the person who put the most work into trying to make PR2 work legitimately, it's an insult.
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#364819 - 04/01/17 03:37 AM
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> > What's the deal with this? Is there any reason it's not included in the official
> > MAME?
>
> Speaking as the person who put the most work into trying to make PR2 work
> legitimately, it's an insult.
I don't see what's so insulting about it. You chose one approach to get the game working, somebody else chose another. Neither approach invalidates the other when the end result is trying to get a certain game to play.
I also don't see what's so "illegitimate" about the other chosen method versus yours, the game is working is it not? Mostly correct behavior as confirmed by people who've played it in the Galloping Ghost arcade, no? I'm not denigrating your work of course but I don't think it's fair to denigrate somebody else's work just because you have a distaste about how it was done.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9716
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Re: MAME4RAGE2 EMULATOR ?
[Re: Dendy]
#364891 - 04/03/17 05:44 PM
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> Neither approach invalidates the other when the end result is trying to get a certain game to play.
MAME's coin of the realm is correctness, not expediency. I don't expect the greater "free games!" public to understand that, but it's why we still exist and the various "MAME killers" of the early 2000s all died.
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