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Traso
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AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin.....
#362494 - 01/12/17 09:48 AM


07-01-2017 AdvanceMAME v3.1. With SDL2 support and improved Raspberry Pi support.

http://www.advancemame.it/



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redk9258
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362496 - 01/12/17 12:50 PM


Looks like it is built on version 0.106. 75 versions outdated! Hardly alive and kickin'. More like on life support and dying off.



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: redk9258]
#362502 - 01/12/17 03:34 PM


> Looks like it is built on version 0.106. 75 versions outdated! Hardly alive and
> kickin'. More like on life support and dying off.

far more than 75 versions in reality if you count the 'u' releases as versions, which really they were (there was technically no difference in requirement / quality for a u build, it was just a schedule thing so that people offering builds didn't get overloaded)

but yes, it's dead, it's not really something I'd call MAME at all at this point it's so far behind the curve in terms of things we've fixed etc. A new release based on 0.106 doesn't make something alive, not even remotely.

to put things in perspective, it's OVER half the project old

Feb 1997 - first MAME release
May 2006 - 106
Jan 2017 - Today

There have been a ridiculous number of breakthroughs made in that time, back from when this was made a lot of things were pure guesswork that have since been proved wrong and done correctly etc. You've only got to look at how far things have come with all the decapping work done to realise we're talking a completely different level of capability now vs. then.

I'd be tempted to say we should tell people trying to release such ancient versions as 'MAME' these days that they can't use the trademark for new releases as it in no way represents what the project is. Having the ability to run on arcade monitors etc. is kinda pointless when the actual emulation is just plain bad compared to more recent builds..



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Haze]
#362505 - 01/12/17 04:31 PM


> but yes, it's dead, it's not really something I'd call MAME at all at this point it's
> so far behind the curve in terms of things we've fixed etc. A new release based on
> 0.106 doesn't make something alive, not even remotely.
>
> to put things in perspective, it's OVER half the project old
>
> Feb 1997 - first MAME release
> May 2006 - 106
> Jan 2017 - Today

0.106 is one of those "magic" numbers. In this case, it's the final release for MAME DOS.
And sure enough, DOS is still an OS target for AdvanceMAME.

- Stiletto



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Stiletto]
#362506 - 01/12/17 04:49 PM


> > but yes, it's dead, it's not really something I'd call MAME at all at this point
> it's
> > so far behind the curve in terms of things we've fixed etc. A new release based on
> > 0.106 doesn't make something alive, not even remotely.
> >
> > to put things in perspective, it's OVER half the project old
> >
> > Feb 1997 - first MAME release
> > May 2006 - 106
> > Jan 2017 - Today
>
> 0.106 is one of those "magic" numbers. In this case, it's the final release for MAME
> DOS.
> And sure enough, DOS is still an OS target for AdvanceMAME.
>
> - Stiletto

the cons still outweigh the pros with it tho..

in terms of emulation they'd be far better writing a new OSD for a modern version that just didn't support certain features as the emulation core is vastly superior to versions that old, they simply don't do justice to emulation at all.

but even with DOS, you're doing yourselves no favours running it; even if you're running an old machine it isn't going to be cheaper to run or maintain as we've come a long way in terms of hardware efficiency compared to then, an old machine pushed to it's limits is going to put out far more heat than a new one handling things with ease.



Mamesick
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Stiletto]
#362507 - 01/12/17 04:52 PM


0.106 is also the last one before the Aaron Giles' huge video rewrite introduced in 0.107. It also uses the old cheat system based on a dat file instead of xml format.
And for the very "retro" fans, it has real hardware (or something similar, I don't remember correctly) scanlines simulation that unfortunately were displayed in the wrong orientation with vertical games (I mean, they were always horizontally oriented)....



Dullaron
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362512 - 01/13/17 05:13 AM


> 07-01-2017 AdvanceMAME v3.1. With SDL2 support and improved Raspberry Pi support.
>
> http://www.advancemame.it/

Heh I remember using this. I'm not going back to it. MAME is way better than this hardly moving from the dead emu. lol



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uman
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362519 - 01/13/17 01:44 PM


"07-01-2017 AdvanceMAME v3.1. With SDL2 support and improved Raspberry Pi support."

I think you all miss this point. While i never liked Rpi, i must admit that now, where hardware is available for the Rpi that enables 15khz support for arcade-cabs and any CRT with a scart-connection, it all makes the difference. For 100-200$ you can have pixel-perfect, input-lag free arcade experience and with 200$ i mean the whole setup. As those people already own a CRT, it will get cheap as 60-150$.

While i understand nearly all points Haze mentioned here, i can only answer with, that noone cares for the newest mame and/or accurate emulation in those Retro, Rpi-scenes/guilds.

It seems you have no sense or feeling for those people. They have no interest in a MAME that contains 40k of roms, because the majority of them, will play only occasionally their all time favorites, which will be like a few hundred games and not thousands. 0.106 doesnt contain 40k of games, but it contains the most important games for those kind of people.

If you want to experience a similar experience with current MAME, you would need to spend a whole lot of buck$. Of course you could argue, that most of the people would have a modern pc at home, so you dont need to spend a lot, but then again you miss the feeling for the common retro-scene again. Any serious retro-gamer, will NOT play on a shitty LCD with a PC. Most of them will own original hardware-consoles and play on CRT, believe it or not. I am in so many groups and this is what i experience everytime. Someone who post a retro-game on a LCD will face a shitstorm and if that happens even on a 16:9 screen, it will be more harassed. Those people, if they are interested in MAME at all, want to play the arcade part, not the gambling machines, not obsolete computer systems etc. and they want that on a CRT, in best case with a cab.

Please notice this is not my opinion, i just want to show you some arguments, why Traso could be right with his statement . After all these years arguing with you all, i gave up on the option that you might see what counts on a user-side. User interested developers (with talent) lost interest to official MAME, cause it lost this (user) focus. You might come up with LUA scripts and what not, but i dont expect anything soon (like many other people). While you keep up the aim and goal of MAME (accurate preserving etc.), there is nearly noone that makes a user-life easier. You may laugh at 0.106, but as this cheap hardware is getting more and more powerful, it wouldnt suprise me to see 0.162 (you know, the version where MAME didnt include MESS... note: i cant remember it well, which version it was) as a next step, probably next year. You underestimate the easiness of those Rpi or other distros. you put them on a stick and you are done. no config, no hassle etc. and you are straight into playing.

In the last years, i saw only minor effort in official MAME to accomplish the same and now you really wonder, why people choose such a distro like AdvanceMAME or similar distros? really?

You lived the mantra: Live and let die, instead of live and let live, which was the biggest mistake you maked in all these years.

Edited by uman (01/13/17 01:56 PM)



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: uman]
#362520 - 01/13/17 02:49 PM


> "07-01-2017 AdvanceMAME v3.1. With SDL2 support and improved Raspberry Pi support."
>
> I think you all miss this point. While i never liked Rpi, i must admit that now,
> where hardware is available for the Rpi that enables 15khz support for arcade-cabs
> and any CRT with a scart-connection, it all makes the difference. For 100-200$ you
> can have pixel-perfect, input-lag free arcade experience
and with 200$ i mean the
> whole setup. As those people already own a CRT, it will get cheap as 60-150$.
>
> While i understand nearly all points Haze mentioned here, i can only answer with,
> that noone cares for the newest mame and/or accurate emulation in those Retro,
> Rpi-scenes/guilds.
>

but the entire point I'm making is that for 100-200$ you CAN'T have pixel-perfect, input-lag free arcade experience, because the actual version of the emulator they're using can't offer that because the emulation just wasn't good enough, it is incapable of offering that.

it's just a scene of hypocrites in that sense, they claim this is the only correct way for the games to be represented while running a version of MAME that fails to represent the games properly.

we worked on the software, I think we have the right to say that it was a bit shit back then.



uman
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Haze]
#362522 - 01/13/17 03:35 PM


You have the right to say that of course, but i dont believe that every game in 0.106 is full of bugs. You also think that people are not aware of bugs/flaws, they just dont care us much as you (me or other people) do. However it is pixelperfect (1:1 pixels on screen) and it has way less input-lag, because of the CRT-setup. Maybe not for the games that demands much more CPU, but for the rest it is true. They are not accurate as a current MAME version, but i also didnt say that .

Calling these people hypocrites is exactly what dont help anyone. Why would they be hypocrites? They know that they play emulation, as real arcade-hardware would be way to expensive. What does it help playing Paperboy without the haptic of the real thing? People still do and they know it. If they claim that this is the only correct way for the games to be represented, then only for the console-games and not for MAME and by any means no offend here, they are right (i maybe revise this in a decade or two).



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: uman]
#362523 - 01/13/17 03:56 PM


> You have the right to say that of course, but i dont believe that every game in 0.106
> is full of bugs. You also think that people are not aware of bugs/flaws, they just
> dont care us much as you (me or other people) do. However it is pixelperfect (1:1
> pixels on screen) and it has way less input-lag, because of the CRT-setup. Maybe not
> for the games that demands much more CPU, but for the rest it is true. They are not
> accurate as a current MAME version, but i also didnt say that .
>

pixel-perfect implies accurate.

but it seems these people care more about screenmodes than the games actually running properly... which to me is just absolute head->desk



uman
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Haze]
#362525 - 01/13/17 04:22 PM


Well like i said, in possibly a year it will be a 0.162 version, if the Rpi hardware becomes more powerful. MAME never was, never is and probably never will be 100% accurate for all gaming titles. It is always a work in progress mode. Should i blame MAME and cherish Supermodel, because i cant play Starwars Trilogy? No, but according to your statement i should .



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: uman]
#362526 - 01/13/17 04:45 PM


> Well like i said, in possibly a year it will be a 0.162 version, if the Rpi hardware
> becomes more powerful. MAME never was, never is and probably never will be 100%
> accurate for all gaming titles. It is always a work in progress mode. Should i blame
> MAME and cherish Supermodel, because i cant play Starwars Trilogy? No, but according
> to your statement i should .

If you want to run Star Wars Trilogy then absolutely, you should use Supermodel because it gives a more correct gameplay experience, the MAME emulation is shit right now. In the future that situation might be reversed, there's plenty of room for MAME to become much better than Supermodel.

to do otherwise would be completely stupid, but is essentially what these people are doing.

you're only MAKING my point..



Sune
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: uman]
#362530 - 01/13/17 06:14 PM


> it wouldnt suprise me to see 0.162 (you know, the version where MAME didnt include
> MESS... note: i cant remember it well, which version it was) as a next step

That makes no sense to me, I never understood this argument. Same with gambling games, Mahjong games, "adult" games etc.

Is there someone twisting your arm forcing you to download every single ROM supported by MAME, or learn how to use some obscure game console or 8-bit micro from the eighties? No.

I just don't understand why it's a problem for you people that MAME emulates bank terminals and synthesizers. Think about it this way - the more emulated platforms that use and exercise any given emulated piece of hardware, the more accurate the emulation needs to be. Win/win situation. I don't keep up with these things as much as I would like to but I've seen enough to guarantee you that your precious arcade games benefit from having one single emulator for everything.

Please explain to me why having MESS and MAME combined could possibly be detrimental to your emulation experience.

S



Haze
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Sune]
#362532 - 01/13/17 07:22 PM


> > it wouldnt suprise me to see 0.162 (you know, the version where MAME didnt include
> > MESS... note: i cant remember it well, which version it was) as a next step
>
> That makes no sense to me, I never understood this argument. Same with gambling
> games, Mahjong games, "adult" games etc.
>
> Is there someone twisting your arm forcing you to download every single ROM supported
> by MAME, or learn how to use some obscure game console or 8-bit micro from the
> eighties? No.
>
> I just don't understand why it's a problem for you people that MAME emulates bank
> terminals and synthesizers. Think about it this way - the more emulated platforms
> that use and exercise any given emulated piece of hardware, the more accurate the
> emulation needs to be. Win/win situation. I don't keep up with these things as much
> as I would like to but I've seen enough to guarantee you that your precious arcade
> games benefit from having one single emulator for everything.
>
> Please explain to me why having MESS and MAME combined could possibly be detrimental
> to your emulation experience.
>
> S

I think the argument is that he doesn't actually care about emulation improving at all, so any improvements that come from those things don't matter.. as long as it plays something like he remembers he's happy.. but of course it has to be in the right screen mode or it's completely pointless!

at least that's the argument I'm getting from this...



B2K24
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Sune]
#362534 - 01/13/17 08:17 PM


> Please explain to me why having MESS and MAME combined could possibly be detrimental
> to your emulation experience.


I have just as much fun playing console games as I do Arcade games so of course *I* was happy when everything merged.

No more separate binaries, sets, etc. etc. etc. Things got better and easier for me when the projects merged



uman
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Sune]
#362535 - 01/13/17 09:06 PM


> That makes no sense to me, I never understood this argument. Same with gambling
> games, Mahjong games, "adult" games etc.
>
> Is there someone twisting your arm forcing you to download every single ROM supported
> by MAME, or learn how to use some obscure game console or 8-bit micro from the
> eighties? No.
>
> I just don't understand why it's a problem for you people that MAME emulates bank
> terminals and synthesizers. Think about it this way - the more emulated platforms
> that use and exercise any given emulated piece of hardware, the more accurate the
> emulation needs to be. Win/win situation. I don't keep up with these things as much
> as I would like to but I've seen enough to guarantee you that your precious arcade
> games benefit from having one single emulator for everything.
>
> Please explain to me why having MESS and MAME combined could possibly be detrimental
> to your emulation experience.
>
> S

Just to clarify, this is not my opinion or how i think about all this or how i would setup a MAME setup... ok.

There are many arguments, why you dont want this, but only if you have a poor platform like Rpi or you need to compile MAME versions for yourself very often. The more drivers MAME have, the more time you need to compile or to filter out games. In some frontends, i can watch a Simpson Episode or two. In case of compiling, not so long ago, some systems couldnt even compile because of MAME was such big. With every new driver/game added, MAME will for sure not become faster or less demanding. You will never notice that, with a proper setup, but the less power your setup has, the more you will hate it and in case of a Rpi you will notice the difference.

> If you want to run Star Wars Trilogy then absolutely, you should use Supermodel
> because it gives a more correct gameplay experience, the MAME emulation is shit right
> now. In the future that situation might be reversed, there's plenty of room for MAME
> to become much better than Supermodel.
>
> to do otherwise would be completely stupid, but is essentially what these people are
> doing.
>
> you're only MAKING my point..

you didnt get me right. i wouldnt judge MAME bad, just because Starwars Trilogy isnt working well or at all and the same applies to that 0.106 version vs. current MAME, because 0.106 fits very well in a Rpi setup, much better as a current version for sure and it is stupid just to blame this circumstance.

> I have just as much fun playing console games as I do Arcade games so of course *I*
> was happy when everything merged.
>
> No more separate binaries, sets, etc. etc. etc. Things got better and easier for me
> when the projects merged

Yes and? nice for you. I wonder you didnt mention your famous G-sync Monitor or any other OP PC component you use, but you have not tried to use MAME in a opposite way, with a very low setup, where every hz and mb counts, so its pretty much pointless to discuss such a topic with you. If things like the handling of all the MAME stuff go so easy for you, be happy with it. Many people gave up on this.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: uman]
#362536 - 01/14/17 01:00 AM


Mame is a tool, I don't know why people still get bent out of shape over people using it differently. There's more than 1 use for a screwdriver. There are some people who don't use it for anything at all but pure preservation and cataloging and only ever boot it up to test if a dump is good.



gamez fan
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362538 - 01/14/17 01:38 AM


Well going by the thread title AdvanceMAME is certainly alive but the MAME dev's have gave
it a right good kickin..:)



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Traso
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Mamesick]
#362579 - 01/15/17 07:07 AM


> And for the very "retro" fans, it has real hardware (or something similar, I don't remember correctly) scanlines simulation that unfortunately were displayed in the wrong orientation with vertical games (I mean, they were always horizontally oriented)....


That was just the stock configuration. In-game the main video parameters were adjustable, including scanline orientation: scan2vert, scan2horz, etc....

I think the algorithm is the same as in pre-video-re-write MAME (I think 2 equals 50%, 3 equals 75%), except there are more kinds.



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Traso
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Smitdogg]
#362580 - 01/15/17 07:25 AM


> Mame is a tool, I don't know why people still get bent out of shape over people using it differently. There's more than 1 use for a screwdriver. There are some people who don't use it for anything at all but pure preservation and cataloging and only ever boot it up to test if a dump is good.


Why do people get bent out of shape by the use of any tool? I'm not different, though I argue there is a difference between using old versions of MAME, and using video technology to create the programming people watch today.

AdvanceMAME has a popular use again because it made itself available to a certain demographic. And as current MAME has largely moved away from native resolution, AdvanceMAME is the standard for that use, and I think should be recognized for it. Finally, while some things are 'more accurate', their rendering methods are an accommodation of modern hardware (like the Scramble/Frogger/Galaxian thing).

But I'm neither for nor against MAMEdev disclaming anything that isn't closely related to current MAME.



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SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362598 - 01/15/17 03:35 PM


I foremost think people should have the freedom to bust their nut over resolutions if it makes them cum but personally, I don't see any difference visually in using S-Video to cheap CRT tv with recent mames and a pcb in a real cabinet. Slightly different scanline positions? Is Sherlock Holmes playing with a magnifying glass? It looks the same. In many cases it looks more vibrant because you have color controls on the tv and when you're in an arcade you get what you get.

If scart can slice another frame of input lag over S-Video (can it?) then cool but mame already adds some either way so it's not 100% accurate either way you look at it.



Traso
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Smitdogg]
#362662 - 01/18/17 04:06 AM


> I foremost think people should have the freedom to bust their nut over resolutions if it makes them cum but personally, I don't see any difference visually in using S-Video to cheap CRT tv with recent mames and a pcb in a real cabinet. Slightly different scanline positions? Is Sherlock Holmes playing with a magnifying glass? It looks the same. In many cases it looks more vibrant because you have color controls on the tv and when you're in an arcade you get what you get.

> If scart can slice another frame of input lag over S-Video (can it?) then cool but mame already adds some either way so it's not 100% accurate either way you look at it.



It's 'not having to slice'. Things come out as they were determined and stay that way. There's a comprehensive explanation over at the B by MonMotha about different display standards and their color spaces.

S-vid on a CRT is like turning up the brightness and contrast all the way and it's stuck that way. Also, depending on the display adapter's scaling alrgorith (ideally it shouldn't, but....), image quality is perhaps 80%, but doesn't look shit if you're watching Peanuts or something. Terrible for video games, especially blank background games. Looks like heat waves inside the tube.

An LCD already has that kind of brightnes (and hence contrast - lack of true blacks) issue due to the backlighting. I haven't seen S-vid on one, so I can't say about the heat waves bit. Accoring to MonMotha, if it's done right, and the color space is correct, S-video can compete with component.

I haven't run MAME beyond SXGA on a decent LCD, so I can't say the possible image quality. But in my experience, PCB+CRT equals the image has a reality of its own; like they're sort of Flatland entities with a very, but perceptibly, thin depth (we're talking especially about golden age games). Pre-video-re-write MAME had more of that across games, and the scanline effects helped with that. Things are more complex now, so it doesn't come as easy; it looks to me like there's a 'light' overlay on the display image.

Most of all: in my recent Starfighter's trip I noted (and noted in my last trip), there's an inexplicable difference in how the image 'behaves' with PCB+19"CRT - the objects are the most 'real', like looking into a window rather than at a screen - which may be related to how the phosphors illunimate, versus a larger, especially newer design, CRT. Objects just seem to move faster on a newer CRT design, verus this sort of measured and fluid pace on an older one. I wish I had a decent camera to capture it. Maybe. Could lead to a revolution in game display.



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SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Traso]
#362676 - 01/18/17 01:55 PM


I'm gonna stand by my Sherlock Holmes statement and add that if this crap bothers you then an actual real classic arcade would drive you out of your nightmared mind because never ever ever ever will you walk into an arcade and have 100% of the monitors running correct or like new even if the arcades are relatively well kept. If people spoil themselves rotten at home with the finest 19 inch nos arcade monitor ever built then lucky them but svideo to shitty crt tv is the same thing visually as an average used arcade monitor, close enough for anyone but pampered Sherlocks.



Traso
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Re: AdvanceMAME - alive an kickin..... new [Re: Smitdogg]
#362755 - 01/21/17 05:27 AM


> I'm gonna stand by my Sherlock Holmes statement and add that if this crap bothers you then an actual real classic arcade would drive you out of your nightmared mind because never ever ever ever will you walk into an arcade and have 100% of the monitors running correct or like new even if the arcades are relatively well kept. If people spoil themselves rotten at home with the finest 19 inch nos arcade monitor ever built then lucky them but svideo to shitty crt tv is the same thing visually as an average used arcade monitor, close enough for anyone but pampered Sherlocks.


Hmh hmh hmh. I've said that most arcades in my youth had beautiful monitors through the life of a game. They really kept them up - I think because people would've been put off otherwise, and why go pay money for a shitty-looking game? I know I noticed any time a monitor wasn't in top shape, and I played games a couple times a week at most.

Most of the monitors, and most of the games I care for, at Starfighter's are at least 85%, so it's worth it.



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