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Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
#358662 - 09/14/16 10:30 PM
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I feel like some of the default bgfx shaders leave a lot to be desired. The hq2x-4x setting make the image look washed out and blocky and the xbr shaders seem to add large amounts of blur.
I remember zenju had a pretty good implementation of xBRZ with his modified version of MAME https://sourceforge.net/projects/xbrz/files/HqMAME/ but sadly hasn't been updated since 0.170 since ddraw is no more in the newer versions.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Rich87]
#358680 - 09/15/16 10:04 AM
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You could always modify the shader files yourself with a text editor.
I changed the default 'defocus' value from 0.5 to 0 as well as a couple other settings such as saturation & shadowmask levels, as I didn't like the default look.
Edited by Ziggy100 (09/15/16 10:07 AM)
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Rich87]
#358681 - 09/15/16 11:04 AM
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Implementation of the xbr shaders family is still in an early stage in Mame. For the most part they give an ugly picture or just a blank screen. As far as image enhancements are concerned for the moment the best option is still the good old Mameplus 168.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Rich87]
#358682 - 09/15/16 12:37 PM
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To be perfectly honest, the majority of the whatever-BR shaders were ported over piecemeal.
The majority of them, once they showed something resembling filtered output that wasn't outrageously out-of-whack, I moved on to the next shader. Some of them show a black screen due to them being some of the most complex of the BR series, and me not having the inclination to go back and fix them yet.
Some of them that do work are probably wrong, too - it's just that the libretro shader documentation is pretty vague as to what BR shaders suit which situations the best, so some of the ones with longer and more arcane names I tended to not bother digging too deeply into the visual quality, as I didn't know what they were supposed to look like anyway.
Porting Cg shaders to the minimalist GLSL-like subset that BGFX demands is actually quite a pain. BGFX only lets you use a bare minimum of shader features due to the fact that one of its supported platforms is WebGL, which doesn't get you a lot of niceties.
The main fun thing that you have to deal with is a lack of implicit casting between boolean and numeric types, a lack of non-square matrices, and some other fun things to do with implicit conversion between scalar and vector types. In short, as I said, it's a pain.
What would really help me would be if some kind soul would assemble an archive of "golden master" screenshots for every single libretro shader, consisting of the input screenshot at native resolution, and the final output from the shader. That would be a massive help for me in porting over the libretro shader library, and I would appreciate it if someone could do that. It would also get your preferred shaders working sooner (or at all).
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358683 - 09/15/16 01:27 PM
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I can help you with those pictures, after i have finished the Vectrex overlays first.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358687 - 09/15/16 08:16 PM
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> What would really help me would be if some kind soul would assemble an archive of
> "golden master" screenshots for every single libretro shader, consisting of the input
> screenshot at native resolution, and the final output from the shader. That would be
> a massive help for me in porting over the libretro shader library, and I would
> appreciate it if someone could do that. It would also get your preferred shaders
> working sooner (or at all).
Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
You know some people dig the look of near-implosion run-down cab monitors, some fantasize over perfect broadcast monitors looking way superior to the average of the time...
Unfortunately some shaders parameters allow to go from one extreme to the other.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: psychic5]
#358688 - 09/15/16 08:34 PM
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As far I could test, all Libretro shader ports - except those with a black screen - work quite the same as in RetroArch (This actually might not be true because the UI made me crazy...)
However, they only work "correctly" with the dx11/d3d11 (DirectX 11) and the gles (OpenGL ES) backend.
The opengl/glsl (OpenGL) backend causes some kind of grayscale image, which is really strange because OpenGL ES is just a subset of OpenGL and the code should work the same without modification. I could not figure out how to fix that.
The dx9/d3d9 (DirectX 9) backend does not show a grayscale-ish image but has another known issue, the half texel offset. This can only be fixed by modifying every single shader and will be a pain in the ass. I would rather prefer to put the BGFX DX9 backend to rest.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#358690 - 09/15/16 09:09 PM
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I stumbled across some glsl xBRZ shaders crazy46guy ported over from DeSmuME to MAME http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...amp;o=&vc=1
Can't seem to get them to work with the official MAME however(0.177). After setting everything up properly in the mame.ini, I get a black screen and then a crash after I start the program.
I wonder if the glsl shaders aren't playing nice with the new internal MAME UI?
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358692 - 09/15/16 10:38 PM
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> Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs, two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358695 - 09/16/16 12:34 AM
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> > Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
>
> If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually
> described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs,
> two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output
> image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
I think the question he asked is a valid one.
Some shaders can be configured, in the case of ones that can be configured, what would you consider acceptable as 2 screenshots won't cover it. (min / mid / max for each option, different combinations of options etc.)
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Rich87]
#358697 - 09/16/16 01:44 AM
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The xBRZ shaders work fine on my MAME 0.177 setup with the internal UI. Could you attach your mame.ini and specify the version of opengl you have. I'll look at the ini and try to figure out what's wrong.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: crazy46guy]
#358699 - 09/16/16 03:33 AM
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Never mind I got them to work. In the ini I had glsl_shader_mame0 set to 6xBRZ when it should've been glsl/6xBRZ, forgot to include the subfolder lol. I also needed to set prescale to 1, any higher value and MAME would only load games with the default unfiltered look(I always turn bilinear filtering off).
Looks great on 2D games, thank you for bringing these over. 
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358700 - 09/16/16 04:49 AM
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> > Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
>
> If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually
> described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs,
> two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output
> image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
You probably can't read.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358705 - 09/16/16 10:48 AM
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> Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
> You know some people dig the look of near-implosion run-down cab monitors, some
> fantasize over perfect broadcast monitors looking way superior to the average of the
> time...
> Unfortunately some shaders parameters allow to go from one extreme to the other.
Lets keep the discussion civil. Lens Larque, what you describe is not relevant for the task. I am not aware of any libretto shader, that needs input *before* you can use it on some game. MG assumes, that we just throw ONE shader on a game and make two decent pictures of the game, one with shader applied and one without. So that we have pictures of shaders with their default settings.
Of course people can do all kind of things with the shaders in RA, but that would be countless possibilities, with a shaderchain that can stack up to 12 different shaders. Like i said, this is not relevant for the task. Its more important to keep track of the version/revision that was used, while making those pictures, as the shaders are updated quite frequently. The other two things that may have some importance are, what kind of scaling (1x-5x) and what kind of filtering (linear or nearest) is used, to help MG, having reproducible results with his own work.
Other things that need attention but are not shader related, is to use the correct aspect ratio and stuff like this.
All in all, we only need to define some things, before starting the task. These things must work in both scenarios (MAME and RA) and we are ready to go.
@Haze:
Quote:
I think the question he asked is a valid one.
Some shaders can be configured, in the case of ones that can be configured, what would you consider acceptable as 2 screenshots won't cover it. (min / mid / max for each option, different combinations of options etc.)
See my above description. There is no min / mid / max option, if you just use *one* single shader at default settings inside the shader-chain. Any more complex shader, just consists of those single shaders, but in a chain and even then, you have only the options i described above.
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| Dullaron |
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Jezze]
#358707 - 09/16/16 11:37 AM
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> As far I could test, all Libretro shader ports - except those with a black screen -
> work quite the same as in RetroArch (This actually might not be true because the UI
> made me crazy...)
>
> However, they only work "correctly" with the dx11/d3d11 (DirectX 11) and the gles
> (OpenGL ES) backend.
>
> The opengl/glsl (OpenGL) backend causes some kind of grayscale image, which is really
> strange because OpenGL ES is just a subset of OpenGL and the code should work the
> same without modification. I could not figure out how to fix that.
>
> The dx9/d3d9 (DirectX 9) backend does not show a grayscale-ish image but has another
> known issue, the half texel offset. This can only be fixed by modifying every single
> shader and will be a pain in the ass. I would rather prefer to put the BGFX DX9
> backend to rest.
Some things aren't meant to work right.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: uman]
#358709 - 09/16/16 12:52 PM
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> See my above description. There is no min / mid / max option, if you just use *one*
> single shader at default settings inside the shader-chain. Any more complex shader,
> just consists of those single shaders, but in a chain and even then, you have only
> the options i described above.
Fair enough, I haven't used them, if they all perform only one completely non-configurable purpose then yeah, there is nothing to worry about. I'm a bit surprised tho, I thought even within a chained system the different parts of the shaders might have optional input parameters much as the CRT shaders do (amount to blur, input values to output values, offset, curvature amount etc.)
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358711 - 09/16/16 03:21 PM
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> Fair enough, I haven't used them, if they all perform only one completely
> non-configurable purpose then yeah, there is nothing to worry about. I'm a bit
> surprised tho, I thought even within a chained system the different parts of the
> shaders might have optional input parameters much as the CRT shaders do (amount to
> blur, input values to output values, offset, curvature amount etc.)
To be fair, newest versions include sliders just like BGFX and HLSL, but only the complex ones (like most CRT or NTSC, S-Video, Composite shaders) and they consist, like i said, from single shaders. I am not sure, if those new shaders can be easily converted, because i think they are written in some code that only RA understands (based on GLSL but different). I guess we need the old ones, written in GLSL, but i am not 100% sure about that. So in older versions there are still optional input parameters, but only inside the code itself. As they dont have sliders, no one can mess up things, produce different results and make things complicated.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358719 - 09/17/16 02:38 AM
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> > > Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
> >
> > If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually
> > described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs,
> > two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output
> > image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
>
> You probably can't read.
Hey, if you want to help, help, but if you don't, then don't break my fucking balls.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: uman]
#358721 - 09/17/16 02:45 AM
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> See my above description. There is no min / mid / max option, if you just use *one*
> single shader at default settings inside the shader-chain. Any more complex shader,
> just consists of those single shaders, but in a chain and even then, you have only
> the options i described above.
Thank you. At least you to get it.
Sliders and other variables like that are irrelevant, they're ultimately just shader uniforms. If the output of a BGFX-ported shader matches with the output of the libretro shader with default settings, then the same slider settings should also match. It's not something I need to concern myself with.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: uman]
#358722 - 09/17/16 02:47 AM
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> I am not sure, if those new shaders can be easily
> converted, because i think they are written in some code that only RA understands
> (based on GLSL but different).
Yes, they can, it's very easy to understand and port. A shader is still a shader no matter how much you gussy it up in weird emulator-specific syntax, and can be ported between different syntaxes.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358726 - 09/17/16 09:59 AM
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> > See my above description. There is no min / mid / max option, if you just use *one*
> > single shader at default settings inside the shader-chain. Any more complex shader,
> > just consists of those single shaders, but in a chain and even then, you have only
> > the options i described above.
>
> Thank you. At least you to get it.
>
> Sliders and other variables like that are irrelevant, they're ultimately just shader
> uniforms. If the output of a BGFX-ported shader matches with the output of the
> libretro shader with default settings, then the same slider settings should also
> match. It's not something I need to concern myself with.
Unless you misapply the variables (eg make a typo and use the same one twice) which seems to be quite a common mistake, not just in shaders, but in code in general, such things have been the source of plenty of MAME bugs over the years.
I think the person asking the question was just being vigilant, and had a valid question to ask, which your initial post definitely didn't answer.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358727 - 09/17/16 10:30 AM
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> > > > Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
> > >
> > > If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I
> actually
> > > described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless
> PNGs,
> > > two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output
> > > image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
> >
> > You probably can't read.
>
> Hey, if you want to help, help, but if you don't, then don't break my fucking balls.
From your post it was very likely for someone to understand the same Haze did at first, this is why I asked the question.
But you being MG, one of the most agressive and condescending mamedevs around, of course you HAD to be a douche.
Help ? FUCK YOU.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358746 - 09/17/16 11:55 PM
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> I think the person asking the question was just being vigilant, and had a valid question to ask, which your initial post definitely didn't answer.
I dunno. I don't know that much about this, but my sense of Moog's post was that it was clear what was needed.
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Scifi frauds. SF illuminates.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358754 - 09/18/16 12:48 AM
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> From your post it was very likely for someone to understand the same Haze did at
> first, this is why I asked the question.
> But you being MG, one of the most agressive and condescending mamedevs around, of
> course you HAD to be a douche.
> Help ? FUCK YOU.
I've seen such user behavior across many different scenes and it's most unfortunate. Instead of being appreciative of what's currently possible, there's always people like you asking and demanding more from a free software and project that has no such wishlist or has advertised that they take and process these kinds of user requests.
You should be happy your question even got answered instead of outright ignored by a Developer that might have 10+ different projects plus RL stuff all going on simultaneously, even if it's the answer you didn't want to hear/read.
No one owes you anything regardless of what you want or what you dream about.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: B2K24]
#358763 - 09/18/16 03:40 AM
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> > From your post it was very likely for someone to understand the same Haze did at
> > first, this is why I asked the question.
> > But you being MG, one of the most agressive and condescending mamedevs around, of
> > course you HAD to be a douche.
> > Help ? FUCK YOU.
>
> I've seen such user behavior across many different scenes and it's most unfortunate.
> Instead of being appreciative of what's currently possible, there's always people
> like you asking and demanding more from a free software and project that has no such
> wishlist or has advertised that they take and process these kinds of user requests.
>
> You should be happy your question even got answered instead of outright ignored by a
> Developer that might have 10+ different projects plus RL stuff all going on
> simultaneously, even if it's the answer you didn't want to hear/read.
>
> No one owes you anything regardless of what you want or what you dream about.
What the hell are you talking about ? 'demanding' again ? No seriously where did you pick that ? You high ?
I didn't post to demand anything, do you realize I simply asked a simple question precisely to better understand what he meant and he was a douche to me ? he wasn't to Haze because he's nobolity maybe ?
There's really a problem with you guys hating on users so much that you vomit the SAME stupid argumentation every time like a broken record not giving a single fuck about what is actually going on.
Just talking to you triggers that madness, you are the ones fucking up threads, you are all insane.
I don't help nor thank people who talk to me with condescension and aggressivity like MG did (can he even NOT do that? you all know he's an ass) nor do I respond positively to pompous lectures from self-righteous, pretentious people who to begin are making the #1 free software for piracy of video games and still dare judge their users in the face and drag them in the mud on any occasion like it's an automated answer. Shove your fucking laughable preaching bullshit up your arses.
MAME's become atrocious to use anyway and nobody but yourselves and the three poseurs in the back care about your achievements in emulating toasters and digital watches or removing/rejecting actually very convenient features because it's not spartan and nerdy enough for your überhipsterized egos.
Keep congratulating between yourselves in circle chanting the dogmas of your project's superior purity, and as you continue to ignore and despise outsider opinions and comments like they're insults to you, sink deeper and deeper into your collective randian delusion until your project becomes so unfriendly, convoluted, and the too many negative figures among you unfortunately representing it so repulsive that its popularity will decrease until nobody gives a single look its way, and all the praise going to things like RA, legitimately so.
Also I said it before but if you saint aryan developers don't want to be touched by the plebe's filth: don't fucking post about your work on a public forum if you don't want to be bothered by people.
But at this point I'm convinced you are enjoying this.
Bye, you hallucinating lot. Done with your shit.
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> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.
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Let's hope it sticks this time.....
[Re: LensLarque]
#358769 - 09/18/16 08:16 AM
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> Bye, you hallucinating lot. Done with your shit.
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Scifi frauds. SF illuminates.
_________________
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358779 - 09/18/16 05:48 PM
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@LensLarque: Jesus... dont think that this was necessary. Just for your information: MG was the person who did port those 5xBR, xBRZ or whatever this licked candy-drops shaders are called. I was really suprised that he did this, knowing that he dont like those shaders, even explained it more than a dozen times why, with very understandable examples, but he still did it. Contrary to some users here, we also have a Jezze statement here, that there are no differencies to the original shader versions and i consider Jezze a trusted and valuable person, when it comes to shaders.
Yet, even if we keep this all away, MG comes here and said that he is interested not only in to solve these things, no, even convert more shaders and explained in his very first post here, what it is to do :
Quote:
What would really help me would be if some kind soul would assemble an archive of "golden master" screenshots for every single libretro shader, consisting of the input screenshot at native resolution, and the final output from the shader. That would be a massive help for me in porting over the libretro shader library, and I would appreciate it if someone could do that. It would also get your preferred shaders working sooner (or at all).
I dont know, what is not to understand here  . I left out the most important part (from my POV), that it is a pain in the ass to convert those shaders, then *you* should pay attention to this, because if someone who really understand his homework says, that this stuff is pain, you maybe should believe him  . I dont care about those candy-crap shaders called "image enhancement", but i do care about the other shaders, where countless emulated consoles inside MAME could benefit from, like the signal-processing shaders. But this is something that will be a dream, if you act and continue like this and i dont think, you will improve anything that is shader related.
Lets go to his answer to you or second post so to say:
Quote:
If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs, two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
Same here, I dont know, what is not to understand here . Also, i dont see any douche behaviour .
All you did answer:
Quote:
You probably can't read.
After this i tried to explain to you and Haze, what is relevant for MG, because i did understand the kind of issues you thought, that could lead to a problem with the shaders. Anything after this, is pure rage rampage, useless crap that will lead to nothing and sadly, also to no new shaders. applause for that. If you think RA is better or the future, you probably should go there and start poking questions there, i am interested how far you will come there.
MGs most times questionable behaviour aside, but i dont see anything he did wrong here, he even asked for help, that is so trivial for anyone who loves fiddling with shaders, that i am really shocked, that no one jumps in and says "hey, eaaasy. here are the picts". its just a shame.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: uman]
#358795 - 09/19/16 11:14 AM
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> MGs most times questionable behaviour aside, but i dont see anything he did wrong
> here, he even asked for help, that is so trivial for anyone who loves fiddling with
> shaders, that i am really shocked, that no one jumps in and says "hey, eaaasy. here
> are the picts". its just a shame.
I am completely at a loss how the thread derailed. The problem is that some of the shaders produces a black display and MG wanted proof that the shader wasn't just broken and then an idea of what it should look like in certain circumstances.
He wasn't saying that he would only ever make it work with that one picture or the settings used. But an input image and output image on default settings is step 1.
If nobody can be bothered to do it because they think MG is too dumb to realise that there could be issues that need fixing after the shaders output something other than black, then nothing will move forward.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: LensLarque]
#358802 - 09/19/16 05:32 PM
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> removing/rejecting actually very convenient features
Citation needed.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: smf]
#358807 - 09/19/16 07:10 PM
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> > MGs most times questionable behaviour aside, but i dont see anything he did wrong
> > here, he even asked for help, that is so trivial for anyone who loves fiddling with
> > shaders, that i am really shocked, that no one jumps in and says "hey, eaaasy. here
> > are the picts". its just a shame.
>
> I am completely at a loss how the thread derailed. The problem is that some of the
> shaders produces a black display and MG wanted proof that the shader wasn't just
> broken and then an idea of what it should look like in certain circumstances.
>
> He wasn't saying that he would only ever make it work with that one picture or the
> settings used. But an input image and output image on default settings is step 1.
>
> If nobody can be bothered to do it because they think MG is too dumb to realise that
> there could be issues that need fixing after the shaders output something other than
> black, then nothing will move forward.
It's actually quite obvious why it went downhill.
There's a problem with MAMEdev acting in a condescending way towards users, the "we're better than you" attitude. Sometimes it's passive, sometimes it isn't. I've noticed it myself*
Mooglyguy also has a reputation here, so anything and everything he says is going to be interpreted that way by default regardless of how it was actually meant. Now take the reply
"If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself"
This reads as 'well you must be stupid' when really the parent was asking what was a legitimate question for a case that the original statement potentially didn't cover, it was something I was asking myself too but didn't post because it's not really something I'm interested in assisting with. Combine this with the already low opinion of devs, especially the dev concerned, and it's fairly easy to see why it flared up.
While there's no way to defend the user's outburst in the end it is very easy to see why it happened, it's a direct consequence of how users have been treated in the past, and the level of contempt shown towards them on here and in general, something I feel has got significantly worse in the last 6 months to a year. Even many of the GitHub comments read as abrupt and rude for things that maybe just need a little more work in order to be accepted. The way even some former devs are being slammed is disgraceful.
* sometimes it is deserved tho, for example people who continually and intentionally break the license terms or make changes that we can explain exactly why are damaging but continue to do so.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358813 - 09/19/16 10:20 PM
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> This reads as 'well you must be stupid'...
It means that to folks who are insecure. And humans inherently are. My internal reading voice was calm and soft when reading that bit of his. And I've been the end of some of Moog's harshest retorts.
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Scifi frauds. SF illuminates.
_________________
Culture General Contact Unit (Eccentric)
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Traso]
#358823 - 09/20/16 01:10 AM
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> > This reads as 'well you must be stupid'...
>
>
> It means that to folks who are insecure. And humans inherently are. My internal
> reading voice was calm and soft when reading that bit of his. And I've been the end
> of some of Moog's harshest retorts.
It's context. Had Charles MacDonald posted that nobody would have bat an eyelid.
As Moogly posted it, and is known for hyper aggressive sociopathic tendencies it gets interpreted in a different way.
Obviously some people aren't going to be offended by it, generally people of similar mind, but it's very easy to see how it interpreted that way.
How it was actually intended, I don't know.
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Thank you. Christ.
[Re: Traso]
#358835 - 09/20/16 11:53 AM
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> > This reads as 'well you must be stupid'...
>
> It means that to folks who are insecure. And humans inherently are. My internal
> reading voice was calm and soft when reading that bit of his. And I've been the end
> of some of Moog's harshest retorts.
Thank you.
I think it's pretty telling just how crazy some people have gotten that the people standing up for me in this thread are people like you and uman, who I often don't get along with.
Seriously, let's all look at some of the posters in this thread trying to portray me as some fanged monster, shall we?
First we have LensLarque, who has cursed me out and called me names multiple times in the past. Then we have Haze, who makes no secret about his distaste for me, and who I doubt has ever even touched a pixel shader in his life. It strains credulity - it strains the hell out of it - to suggest that either of these people would have suddenly mounted up and started taking reference screenshots if only I had been a bit more polite to them.
No, they came into this thread with the express purpose of not helping. Yet uman, for whom there's even a language barrier when interacting with me, seems to get exactly what I need and why I need it, and has already volunteered to help generate those screenshots when he has the time. Meanwhile, I'm volunteering my time to actually look at these shaders and get them working once I have proper reference shots so I know I haven't introduced any bugs when porting the shaders.
As for Haze's statements about RA supporting sliders or whatnot, as far as I know I'm the one who's spent hours poring over the RA documentation as it pertains to sliders, and exactly how each custom line of Cg gets interpreted, so where exactly does he get off comporting to tell me about how the shaders do or don't work?
Take note, everyone, as this thread provides a great example of why MAME developers get pissy with users sometimes: You'll volunteer to work on something, and still people will come out of the woodwork to drop a turd on you. What a thankless, shit job it is to work on emulators.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358836 - 09/20/16 12:00 PM
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> sociopathic tendencies
LOL, I was waiting for that one to come up. Everyone fancies themselves an armchair psychologist, don't they?
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358837 - 09/20/16 01:27 PM
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> > sociopathic tendencies
>
> LOL, I was waiting for that one to come up. Everyone fancies themselves an armchair
> psychologist, don't they?
I said that's what you're known here for, I didn't say how accurate it was.
The amount of inaccurate things that have been said about me, words placed in my mouth, motives plastered on me that simply don't exist is enough to tell me that people are very wrong sometimes.
Somebody was claiming it was difficult to see why it exploded, it wasn't.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358851 - 09/20/16 10:09 PM
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> How it was actually intended, I don't know.
Don't you think that's relevant?
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: smf]
#358852 - 09/20/16 10:15 PM
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> > How it was actually intended, I don't know.
>
> Don't you think that's relevant?
In a discussion about why the thread blew up? not really.
It blew up because of poor reputations and a history of such things, a bit like what happens with Cartman in South Park.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358853 - 09/20/16 10:28 PM
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> In a discussion about why the thread blew up? not really.
>
> It blew up because of poor reputations and a history of such things, a bit like what
> happens with Cartman in South Park.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that it had nothing to do with you and LensLarque, two people who have already made their ill will towards me abundantly clear, you in particular probably never having touched a pixel shader in your life, dropping by the thread for no reason other than to shit it up?
Because it seems to me that you and Lens here are the only people who can't see who really dragged this thread down. The fact that there are people who I A) don't know or B) don't normally get along with backing me up on this would seem to indicate that I'm not the only one who sees it, either.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#358854 - 09/20/16 10:33 PM
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> > In a discussion about why the thread blew up? not really.
> >
> > It blew up because of poor reputations and a history of such things, a bit like
> what
> > happens with Cartman in South Park.
>
> Do you honestly mean to tell me that it had nothing to do with you and LensLarque,
> two people who have already made their ill will towards me abundantly clear, you in
> particular probably never having touched a pixel shader in your life, dropping by the
> thread for no reason other than to shit it up?
>
> Because it seems to me that you and Lens here are the only people who can't see who
> really dragged this thread down. The fact that there are people who I A) don't know
> or B) don't normally get along with backing me up on this would seem to indicate that
> I'm not the only one who sees it, either.
I was trying to help explain things as it didn't seem clear where the confusion was but I could see where it was coming from.
So no, I don't think it is my fault at all that this thread blew up.
You were absolutely dismissive of a valid question. As I was going with the assumption that you weren't just being rude, I tried explaining it as it can't have been clear what was being asked based on the answer you gave. You continued with the dismissive answers. Boom.
It's threads like this that give you the reputation that results in threads like this.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358862 - 09/21/16 11:02 AM
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> You were absolutely dismissive of a valid question.
That's your interpretation. The correct interpretation, the one that seemingly everyone except people like you with a chip on their shoulder seemed to get, was that I honestly don't have any other way of explaining what I meant by the screenshots I want. Any other reading of it is on you, man.
What would you have me do? Just make some shit up, tell the guy "A golden master is a special ring that you put under your pillow that makes the faeries come and sprinkle magic gold emulation dust on your computer"?
I didn't have any other way of describing what I wanted and what I needed than what I wrote, and I said that.
> It's threads like this that give you the reputation that results in threads like
> this.
It's threads like this one, where shitheads who have a bone to pick with me come out of the woodwork to pick their particular bones, that give me a reputation that results in threads like this, where shitheads come to try to dissuade me from actually helping MAME? Yeah, okay, champ.
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358863 - 09/21/16 11:12 AM
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> I was trying to help explain things as it didn't seem clear where the confusion was
> but I could see where it was coming from.
You missed the point.
Everyone saw exactly what you saw, you just judged it differently. Can you explain the confusion why you would judge it in such a strange way?
This is how I see it.
1. Person A asks for help and says what they need.
2. Person B asks Person A what they mean as it sounds like the wrong thing.
3. Person A repeats what they want.
4. Person B goes mental.
5. You come in and enable Person B.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358864 - 09/21/16 11:32 AM
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IMHO you cant blame anyone here. Such behaviour and these derailed threads, have some kind of a long tradition in this forum. It lacks of appropriate moderation and we all have to deal now with the barbarization, that come along with that fact.
Haze, i hope you realize how this thread has even started:
Quote:
I feel like some of the default bgfx shaders leave a lot to be desired. The hq2x-4x setting make the image look washed out and blocky and the xbr shaders seem to add large amounts of blur.
I remember zenju had a pretty good implementation of xBRZ with his modified version of MAME https://sourceforge.net/projects/xbrz/files/HqMAME/ but sadly hasn't been updated since 0.170 since ddraw is no more in the newer versions.
Just read the first two sentences, that is based on feelings and vague assumptions. Is this how you would start a thread, to have better or improved shaders? Wouldnt you include some evidence, screenshots, your own mame.ini etc. ?
Now go on and read the follow up posts, it wont get better. Dont know what about Ziggy100 is talking, but it seems in no way xBRZ related, as he is into some HLSL settings.
After this, comes a third post:
Quote:
Implementation of the xbr shaders family is still in an early stage in Mame. For the most part they give an ugly picture or just a blank screen. As far as image enhancements are concerned for the moment the best option is still the good old Mameplus 168.
Again you have very valuable info here (sarcastic laughs). No info on which shaders produce blank screens and best option is Mameplus 168.
If you, in all of this, can find something useful, well then i can safely say, thats what i would exactly expect from any xBRZ/Hq/Bullshit image enhancement shader outthere, be it Mameplus 168, Mameminus 0170... "to give an ugly picture or just a blank screen".
IMHO in all of this "valuable" info, i found MG first post very civil and friendly and i can imagine, he felt personally addressed as he has ported those shaders. So if I have the opportunity to interact with the author itself, believe me, my approach would be different, if i would be really interested in better xBRZ shaders.
I remember some topics in the past, where you have explained, that casual (MAME) users, are only good for one thing: testing stuff and reporting bugs. Well, then start to educate them to do this properly, because this would be a good start avoiding threads like this here *and* would be more in your interest. Start to have proper moderated forums, even if you sometimes think its funny to read out-of-control rage posts.
You need to realize that users are mostly very lazy, especially in the shader-segment-section. If people would be really interested in experimenting with i.e. HLSL, they would realize what kind of powerful shader-system they have under their fingertips. Unfortunately this is not the case and so shaders like crt-geom or lotte shader become the more popular ones.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: smf]
#358865 - 09/21/16 11:44 AM
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> > I was trying to help explain things as it didn't seem clear where the confusion was
> > but I could see where it was coming from.
>
> You missed the point.
>
> Everyone saw exactly what you saw, you just judged it differently. Can you explain
> the confusion why you would judge it in such a strange way?
>
> This is how I see it.
>
> 1. Person A asks for help and says what they need.
> 2. Person B asks Person A what they mean as it sounds like the wrong thing.
> 3. Person A repeats what they want.
> 4. Person B goes mental.
> 5. You come in and enable Person B.
sorry, but you just seem to come from the smf school of twisting things around, selective out of context quoting & questions, defending the person that is in the wrong, and derailing threads, and generally not having a grasp on what is going on. I'm done arguing with that kind of person.
So, for the final time, I was trying to **avoid** Person B going mental by rephrasing the question they asked as the answer seemed to miss the point of the question *or* Person A was being deliberately rude. There was always a risk of Person B going mental due to Person A appearing rude, I gave an opportunity for that to be avoided, it wasn't taken. Even now the question still stands as a valid one with real concerns behind it that have been shovelled under the carpet because apparently it would be completely impossible for a dev to make a typo or something.
Clearly I was not wrong in thinking that this could happen, and clearly not the only one who saw the potential for things to be interpreted that way, because it did happen, even after I tried steering things in a direction that could initially avoid it by helping rephrase the question.
and for anybody wondering, this is Moogly's shoutbox take on the whole thing
Quote:
Just Desserts: I love it, "Mooglyguy also has a reputation here, so anything and everything he says is going to be interpreted [by most non-devs] that way by default regardless of how it was actually meant."
Just Desserts: So because dumb cunts have been dumb cunts to me in the past, and I don't suffer dumb cunts, then it's somehow my fault that other dumb cunts are going to go with their own dumb cunt interpretation regardless of how it was meant. ok
Just Desserts: Maybe Haze would feel better if him, Solstar, jasd, CTOJAH, Ice Cream, LensLarque, Vaughan, and all the other dumb cunts fucked off to their own dumb cunt island with their dumb cunt friends where they can all happily be dumb cunts with each other
and you wonder why I really don't bother anymore and why Moogly's reputation is what it is and why I'd rather distance myself from the actual team.
these are your mamedevs folks.
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358868 - 09/21/16 03:16 PM
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> So, for the final time, I was trying to **avoid** Person B going mental by rephrasing
> the question they asked as the answer seemed to miss the point of the question *or*
> Person A was being deliberately rude.
Don't you think that it would have been easier if Person B had just given Person A what they wanted? It was _obvious_ what they wanted. They could have offered more, rather than question whether Person A had a clue what they were talking about.
I'm sure that after making the shaders not just output black with default settings, Person A would have taken bug reports if the images were wrong with different settings.
You can't judge Person A badly while enabling Person B, it's discriminatory.
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: smf]
#358869 - 09/21/16 03:42 PM
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> > So, for the final time, I was trying to **avoid** Person B going mental by
> rephrasing
> > the question they asked as the answer seemed to miss the point of the question *or*
> > Person A was being deliberately rude.
>
> Don't you think that it would have been easier if Person B had just given Person A
> what they wanted? It was _obvious_ what they wanted. They could have offered more,
> rather than question whether Person A had a clue what they were talking about.
>
> I'm sure that after making the shaders not just output black with default settings,
> Person A would have taken bug reports if the images were wrong with different
> settings.
>
> You can't judge Person A badly while enabling Person B, it's discriminatory.
'discriminatory' and 'enabling' ... of course.
Person B was asking an intelligent question, in order to try and possibly supply better details. Anybody familiar with basic testing procedures would have asked the same question.
Instead of responding to the question asked (which can be paraphrased "what should be provided in the case of variable parameters") the question was ignored and the reply "If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you" was given. That is not helpful and not how you treat somebody who is trying to ascertain details in order to provide you with better data.
So yes, Person A will be judged badly in that case, especially given their history, a history they've done nothing to dispel with the way they've reacted to this.
Person B will be judged badly (but IMHO not as badly) due to the unnecessary response that came afterwards, however since it was incited by the actions of Person A, it is them I will judge badly in this situation as the whole thing could have been avoided just by answering the question properly.
The whole thing could have been avoided if the initial answer had been more along the lines of "For cases with a single parameter ensure there are 3 data points (lowest, middle, highest) and in cases where there is no specified minimum / maximum value, using values which seem sensible for the shader. In every case record the values used. If there are multiple parameters provide a selection of datapoints then attempt to isolate the effect of each one by only changing one at a time." I was trying to prompt a response along those lines that would answer the actual question without stepping on toes by outright telling the person to do that (had I, no doubt things would have escalated for that reason instead due to one of the people involved)
Intelligent people are going to ask questions like that if they feel the original request was a bit vague for cases they feel they're likely to encounter rather than risk providing inappropriate data by taking matters into their own hands.
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358871 - 09/21/16 04:07 PM
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> Person B was asking an intelligent question, in order to try and possibly supply
> better details. Anybody familiar with basic testing procedures would have asked the
> same question.
It wasn't an intelligent question, it was essentially "I know more than you, please explain what you're talking about".
It's pretty obvious that we're not at the stage where you need to go to the level of detail that Person B was showing off by pointing out he thought was needed.
"The majority of them, once they showed something resembling filtered output that wasn't outrageously out-of-whack, I moved on to the next shader. Some of them show a black screen due to them being some of the most complex of the BR series, and me not having the inclination to go back and fix them yet.
Some of them that do work are probably wrong, too - it's just that the libretro shader documentation is pretty vague as to what BR shaders suit which situations the best, so some of the ones with longer and more arcane names I tended to not bother digging too deeply into the visual quality, as I didn't know what they were supposed to look like anyway."
Don't you think if you want to make someone inclined to help you, that you shouldn't act in such a provocative way?
"> > Could you please develop on the "golden master" bit ?
>
> If you don't know what it means, I don't know what to tell you, because I actually
> described exactly what I meant by that in the post itself: A set of lossless PNGs,
> two per shader, consisting of the unfiltered input image, and the filtered output
> image. If this doesn't mean anything to you, you probably can't help.
You probably can't read."
It surely escalated, you appear to think that Person A is in the wrong and Person B is in the right. Based on some preconceived ideas about the people involved.
"Intelligent people are going to ask questions like that if they feel the original request was a bit vague for cases they feel they're likely to encounter rather than risk providing inappropriate data by taking matters into their own hands."
So Person B is more intelligent than Person A? In which case, why don't they fix the shaders?
Edited by John Doe (09/21/16 04:31 PM)
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358873 - 09/21/16 05:25 PM
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| smf |
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I've been here before
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: 789]
#358874 - 09/21/16 05:55 PM
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That you think there is any winning to be had in this discussion is quite telling.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: 789]
#358875 - 09/21/16 07:54 PM
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A wild Fanboi or Bart Symno has appeared!
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Things have gotten far and away.....
[Re: B2K24]
#358878 - 09/21/16 08:54 PM
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> A wild Fanboi or Bart Symno has appeared!
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: 789]
#358906 - 09/22/16 12:28 PM
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Re: Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
[Re: Haze]
#358983 - 09/25/16 05:53 PM
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Index 
Threaded 
Anyone get shaders like 5xBR or xBRZ to work with MAME 0.177?
Reply
[Re: 
. I left out the most important part (from my POV), that it is a pain in the ass to convert those shaders, then *you* should pay attention to this, because if someone who really understand his homework says, that this stuff is pain, you maybe should believe him 
. I dont care about those candy-crap shaders called "image enhancement", but i do care about the other shaders, where countless emulated consoles inside MAME could benefit from, like the signal-processing shaders. But this is something that will be a dream, if you act and continue like this and i dont think, you will improve anything that is shader related. 
