John IV |
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IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
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Ars article on 'unemulated games'
#330040 - 08/17/14 05:49 AM
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: John IV]
#330041 - 08/17/14 06:58 AM
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Cool article and interesting read there. Thanks for linking that.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: John IV]
#330047 - 08/17/14 03:47 PM
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Interesting that the Raiden games are the only ones in that list that anyone would actually want to play.
Another shitty unplayable game that they should have mentioned is Primal Rage 2.
NBA Showtime?
Isn't Heated Barrel still fucked up, too?
Why not mention the Namco System 10 games? There are some good ones there.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330049 - 08/17/14 04:06 PM
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> Interesting that the Raiden games are the only ones in that list that anyone would
> actually want to play.
>
> Another shitty unplayable game that they should have mentioned is Primal Rage 2.
>
> NBA Showtime?
>
> Isn't Heated Barrel still fucked up, too?
>
> Why not mention the Namco System 10 games? There are some good ones there.
Emulation rarely gets the press attention that it deserves, whether that involves articles at all, or the actual research necessary to produce a quality article. Plus we're talking about Ars Technica here, while they're not quite as crappy as Gawker, they're still writing for a general audience rather than people like us.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#330050 - 08/17/14 06:23 PM
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>>or the actual research necessary to produce a quality article. Plus we're talking about
>>Ars Technica here, while they're not quite as crappy as Gawker, they're still writing
>>for a general audience rather than people like us.
Two sentences of the article that could be better imo, but understandable the article is meant for gamers and tech enthusiasts not a law type review article for "Perry Mason lawyer-like" trial court afficionados. 
"It’s a bit ironic that the technology originally intended to prevent illicit copying is now threatening to prevent these games from being preserved digitally"
I believe the important part missing or overlooked meant to be for products marketed 'post 2000 AD' that use various forms of protection and then it was amended to exclude games products marketed before 2000 AD. If the original law also included products made during 1980s such as Sega hardware using FD 1094 and FD 1089, I am glad there were sane congressional members that knew better and revised the crappy law....of course it affects USA while Europe and other regions have their own various laws regarding this topic.
I don't remember details of law because it is crappy to begin with and should be tossed away just like the early 20th century laws of "Prohibition". I could continue on, but this is not Democratic Underground web site forums where one can spend all day arguing down to trivial nonsense of various issues.
>For others, there's no known digital ROM dump of the original hardware, usually because
> that hardware is only available in a few extant prototype boards floating around.
Part of this explanation is acceptable, but the main part that is missing is various contributors that can help are far and very few these days. I could add the IRS taxes issue which affected and crippled what DU could do in the past, but then that gets back to another topic that is better on the Democratic Underground web site rather than here.
Of the posters there, this poster knows what is going. Has to be poster or lurker here or on Bannister's forums.
--
crazyz
MAME's added a whole discrete IC emulation framework over the past 2 years.
--
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games' *edited*
[Re: John IV]
#330051 - 08/17/14 06:55 PM
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>Name-drops Arbie to boot.
Heh.
*from article*
--
While MAME ignores most of these pre-microchip games, the DICE project (Discrete Integrated Circuit Emulator) provides accurate recreations of early classics like Pong and Breakout through emulation. But DICE still hasn’t been able to crack Computer Space, because of its complicated hardware configuration. As a commenter wrote on the project's Work In Progress blog:
"DICE currently only emulates single board games. A lot more code is required before DICE can handle games that use multiple boards including Computer Space or a board rack setup such as Indy 800. It might be a while before multiple board hardware games are emulated."
--
That commenter seems very familiar.
And is now out-of-date since Indy 4 is already emulated with the ingenious move by Adam and Rich of having the Indy 4 car control pcbs be treated as a single pcb since the car pcbs are the same. The same thing should be possible with Indy 800, but Indy 800 might not be fully dumped at this time. The belief is there might be a rom or two missing from one of the main boards of Indy 800 card rack.
*also from article*
--
" The very first coin-operated arcade game, released months before Pong in 1971, remains surprisingly unemulated to this day. That's partly because Computer Space ran on hard-wired integrated circuits—like many arcade games of the '70s—and not on modern microprocessor ROMs (controversial 1976 game Death Race is in a similar boat, and also remains unemulated)."
--
It shouldn't be surprising because multiple pcbs = multiple magnitude of complexity just to get a 4 or 5 board system up and running. One reason why I don't expect either PSE Desert Patrol nor PSE Bazooka to be emulated any time soon since both use a multiple card rack pcb system. Even if roms are readily available (ie: Bazooka), it won't matter and same thing apllies to Electra Flying Fortress.
Death Race could be possible since it is a single board game, but it may be a while before Death Race is emulated.
Meanwhile some good news regarding Brunswick's Astrohockey because paperwork is now accounted for including the logic schematics that show how gameplay logic works.
Astrohockey chips are all 74xxx ttl so it appear no proms are used compared to some of the Ramtek games that use Intersil 5610 proms.
This means when Astrohockey copies are in Rich or Adam's hands, good odds Astrohockey could be emulated in DICE....also...Qwak artwork piece accounted for. A pcb of Qwak has yet to be dumped, but I am pretty sure proms will eventually be available some time later.
Edited by gregf (08/19/14 02:59 AM)
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: gregf]
#330055 - 08/18/14 12:01 AM
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It's a good article, but it gets a few things wrong (for example Hologram Time Traveler is NOT emulated, it's simulated via some scripting).
I think it's overlooking a few things as well. Like it mentions stuff like sonic blast man and says while it's emulated you can't get the full effect. Well that goes for at least 50% of everything in mame, excluding pinball and em stuff even. Arcade cabinet preservation and pcb preservation are NOT the same thing. If we truly want to preserve these games, we need to do BOTH. So SBM isn't the exception, rather the rule.
Also a lot of the stuff isn't really in any danger of being lost.....at least not yet. Discrete hardware emulation is in it's infancy largely due to the fact that pcs just recently got powerful enough to emulate games at such a low level. We'll get there.
In addition, anything made after 2000, well it probably isn't emulated due to it still being in use, the pcbs are still too expensive to dump, or PCs are still too slow to work on the emulation. Again, we'll get there.
Finally when people write these articles they are often unaware or overlooking other arcade emulators. The list gets pretty short when you take things supported by Daphne, Model 2, Supermodel, Demul, and ect. I'm not saying that mame doesn't need them included, but in most cases the authors of the other emulators are actively working to update mame's source.
Don't get me wrong it's a good read, but I don't think we should be panicking yet.
The things we really need to worry about are modern console games. This digital download only stuff that's popped up in recent years will be hard to track down, much less crack so that it plays without a license.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: gregf]
#330056 - 08/18/14 02:08 AM
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>That commenter seems very familiar.
I was beaming with pride when I first read it.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: HowardC]
#330061 - 08/18/14 05:42 AM
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I personally don't truly consider something emulated until it's in MAME/MESS. The problem with a lot of the one off emulators is that they just have shitty video output.
Take Demul, for example. Yeah, maybe it emulates Naomi games better than MAME does, but it has microstuttering and runs like ass even if you're getting 100% speed.
MAME has no microstuttering. It runs very well.
BSNES has the same problem. Sure, it might be an accurate SNES emulator, but it's a shitty Windows program. I've tried BSNES on at least 8 different computers, and it couldn't run without hitching/audio breakup on any of them even though they all got 100% speed. It also only runs in windowed mode, so it doesn't work with G-Sync.
MAME's the only emulator that really feels bulletproof when you actually play games on it. It's kind of ironic given MAME's goal of being a documentation project; it plays games better than any other emulator I can think of.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: gregf]
#330066 - 08/18/14 12:07 PM
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> Two sentences of the article that could be better imo,[...]
Marble Madness 2: Marble Man
"And though the prototypes do sometimes make an appearance at shows like California Extreme, the ROM has yet to be dumped."
i doubt that.
the ROM has yet to be released to the public.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330070 - 08/18/14 01:25 PM
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> I personally don't truly consider something emulated until it's in MAME/MESS. The
> problem with a lot of the one off emulators is that they just have shitty video
> output.
>
> Take Demul, for example. Yeah, maybe it emulates Naomi games better than MAME does,
> but it has microstuttering and runs like ass even if you're getting 100% speed.
>
> MAME has no microstuttering. It runs very well.
You wouldn't see microstuttering even if there was any given that naomi never reaches 100% in mame. And demul currently has much better rendering quality than mame.
> MAME's the only emulator that really feels bulletproof when you actually play games
> on it. It's kind of ironic given MAME's goal of being a documentation project; it
> plays games better than any other emulator I can think of.
It's not ironic. We really try to find out how things are really working inside. Not all emulator authors do (or did, emulators-only-for-playing as quite passe by now).
OG.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: gregf]
#330076 - 08/18/14 05:10 PM
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> --
> crazyz
>
> MAME's added a whole discrete IC emulation framework over the past 2 years.
I assume that's crazyc/Carl 
Also, I'm vaguely horrified at being quoted about something that was solved 2 years ago as if it was still a thing.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: RdW]
#330091 - 08/18/14 08:00 PM
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>> Two sentences of the article that could be better imo,[...]
Marble Madness 2: Marble Man
"And though the prototypes do sometimes make an appearance at shows like California Extreme, the ROM has yet to be dumped."
>I doubt that. the ROM has yet to be released to the public.
Correct. I guess knowing that MM2 is nowhere near the quality of MM makes it easier for me that it isn't supported and I was a huge hardcore fan of Marble Madness because I constantly played the game from years 1985 up till 1987. I would be bummed if MM2 is just every bit as good as MM, but imo thankfully it isn't. That's why I don't miss it being supported.
Great to see Atari Crossfire (a very obscure, limited trial run game during mid 1970s) now emulated/preserved in DICE and maybe eventually to be emulated in MAME. To me, that's something that a game I had doubts of actually existing when I first noticed the name many years earlier and it is now preserved/playable makes this year impressive imo.
Future goal is to see about helping get Allied Leisure Zap on the way of being emulated because that is another game that I also thought never existed until seeing one of the ebay auction listing from many years earlier.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330094 - 08/18/14 08:09 PM
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> --
> crazyz
>
> MAME's added a whole discrete IC emulation framework over the past 2 years.
>--
>I assume that's crazyc/Carl
I never would have guess that earlier, but I agree with you.
>Also, I'm vaguely horrified at being quoted about something that was solved 2 years ago
>as if it was still a thing.
Visit the Namco page entry on unMAMEd....you'll enjoy revisiting some of those quotes that should be retired/erased from the page years earlier.
http://unmamed.mameworld.info/non_namco.html
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Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: Antny]
#330103 - 08/18/14 09:49 PM
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> > That commenter seems very familiar.
>
> I was beaming with pride when I first read it.
That's our gregf! 
- Stiletto
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#330119 - 08/19/14 02:43 AM
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> > I personally don't truly consider something emulated until it's in MAME/MESS. The
> > problem with a lot of the one off emulators is that they just have shitty video
> > output.
> >
> > Take Demul, for example. Yeah, maybe it emulates Naomi games better than MAME does,
> > but it has microstuttering and runs like ass even if you're getting 100% speed.
> >
> > MAME has no microstuttering. It runs very well.
>
> You wouldn't see microstuttering even if there was any given that naomi never reaches
> 100% in mame. And demul currently has much better rendering quality than mame.
>
>
> > MAME's the only emulator that really feels bulletproof when you actually play games
> > on it. It's kind of ironic given MAME's goal of being a documentation project; it
> > plays games better than any other emulator I can think of.
>
> It's not ironic. We really try to find out how things are really working inside. Not
> all emulator authors do (or did, emulators-only-for-playing as quite passe by now).
>
> OG.
You can find out how things really work inside and still be a shitty application that's effectively worthless in terms of actually playing games. BSNES is a shining example of that.
From MAME's "About" statement:
"Of course, in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games. This is considered a nice side effect, and is not MAME's primary focus."
It is ironic that an emulator that doesn't place its primary focus on playability is more playable than most of the emulators that focus on playability. Although, if we're really being honest with ourselves here, MAME's playability is largely the result of Aaron's work on the Windows version of MAME.
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Road Runner question
[Re: Stiletto]
#330120 - 08/19/14 03:08 AM
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I know it makes it way to CAX. Does anyone know who owns the prototype? Anyone MAME friendly?
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Re: Road Runner question
[Re: Antny]
#330122 - 08/19/14 03:42 AM
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> I know it makes it way to CAX. Does anyone know who owns the prototype? Anyone MAME
> friendly?
I wish the laser disc dump for MAME. I do know that the Atari remake the game in 1985. They took out the videos and redone the game play. Prototype is better than the remake. The remake is in MAME.
Other games could've been remake that is from laser discs. I guest the people didn't want to remake Dragon Lairs and others into plain arcade games without the laser discs support.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330132 - 08/19/14 06:49 AM
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> Interesting that the Raiden games are the only ones in that list that anyone would
> actually want to play.
>
> Another shitty unplayable game that they should have mentioned is Primal Rage 2.
>
> NBA Showtime?
>
> Isn't Heated Barrel still fucked up, too?
>
> Why not mention the Namco System 10 games? There are some good ones there.
I agree, that there are games way more suitable for this list, than Raiden II (which is even dumped and almost emulated). For example, Irem's "Battle Bird" in a holographic cabinet similar to Wyvern F-0 (and a "similar" price). Or Entertainment Science's "Bouncer". Or those 3DO-based prototypes - "Die Alien Scum!!" and "Beavis and Butt-Head".
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330146 - 08/19/14 04:10 PM
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> You can find out how things really work inside and still be a shitty application
> that's effectively worthless in terms of actually playing games. BSNES is a shining
> example of that.
>
> From MAME's "About" statement:
>
> "Of course, in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior
> matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games. This is
> considered a nice side effect, and is not MAME's primary focus."
>
> It is ironic that an emulator that doesn't place its primary focus on playability is
> more playable than most of the emulators that focus on playability. Although, if
> we're really being honest with ourselves here, MAME's playability is largely the
> result of Aaron's work on the Windows version of MAME.
I really dont know, what you are talking about. Do you really mean that SNES emulation is better on MESS then on BSNES? Can you name a better emulator for SNES?
Beside all of this, I never had your problems you are talking about with BSNES. BSNES is awesome, regarding emulation. emulation will never reach the real thing. If you think you see micro-stutter in BSNES, buy the real thing. I dont have your problems, it works very well for me.
MAME (if continued project) will shine in the future. with its aim to produce accurate emulation, it can happen that it will become a better choice, but for the moment, there are a lot of games, done better in emulators that are NOT MAME. So I really dont know, how you come to the conclusion that MAME plays that games better or are playable at least. Model2, Supermodel and Demul are the best examples, why you are wrong with your statement.
cheers, u-man
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330148 - 08/19/14 04:36 PM
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There is a difference between the quality of an application and the quality of emulation.
BSNES might be a more accurate SNES emulator than MESS, but MESS runs far better than BSNES, and the reality is that many SNES games that don't use the weird add-on chips actually run fine in MESS. I'd rather play Super Mario World in MESS than BSNES, for example.
It is impossible to run BSNES and Demul without stuttering. And no, I'm not talking about stuttering from running below 100% speed. They still stutter even if you get 100% speed.
I can run Super Metroid in MESS with absolutely no stuttering on either a CRT with GroovyMAME or with a G-Sync monitor. This is not achievable in BSNES. When I say no stuttering, I really mean it. Not a single hiccup or stutter. I have never seen any other emulator that's as rock solid as MAME in this regard.
I can see why BSNES is fucked, given that it always runs in windowed mode so is subject to desktop composition rape and other problems. No windowed program truly has control over the frames it's outputting in Windows 7 onward. Not sure what the deal is with Demul.
Show me Nebula M2, Super Model, and Demul running in an arcade cabinet on a CRT at the games' native refresh rate and resolution with absolutely no stuttering or tearing. Prove it's possible. I can prove that such a setup is possible with MAME/MESS.
I'll put it this way: with a GroovyMAME setup in an arcade cabinet, I can actually fool people who own PCBs into thinking that the original game is running through MAME. I could not pull it off in any other emulator, because they'd notice the random hiccups.
"emulation will never reach the real thing"
What a naive statement. Video game emulation has only really been focused on since around 1997. It's just begnning. Think about how good it's going to be 50 years from now.
There are already scenarios in which it can fool people who own the original boards. There are already drivers in MAME that are so close that they're beyond the point of the average human's ability to discern the difference. A friend of a friend is a collector who owns almost every NeoGeo cart. I showed him my GroovyMAME setup. He honestly couldn't tell the difference. MAME's NeoGeo driver is that good. Of course, there aren't a ton of drivers in MAME that are as good as the NeoGeo driver yet, but the point is that all this "will never reach the real thing" talk is a load of dogshit.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330156 - 08/19/14 06:31 PM
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First BSNES can be run fullscreen, dont know what you are talking. Have you ever pressed F11 on BSNES or Higan (newer version of BSNES) ?
Second: there is no stuttering...period... either you are to noob to setup properly or you have some lame rig.
You make me just lel... seriously... hiccups.... no way, sry dude. If you play BSNES via Retroarch, you can use the best shaders possible too.
Also all of this can for sure be running on a CRT... no prob here, no hiccups here. The only one fucked up, is you, as you cant setup something properly and then blame the emulator for your wisdom.
Dude it is proven that BSNES is able to run every commercial Super NES title ever released by virtue of cycle-accurate emulation without any known bugs.
At least you play on CRT, so I have some hope.
Prove me that nearly any title of Demul, Model2, Supermodel is at least enjoyable playable on a MAME setup, that proof I want to see. All the games of the mentioned emulators, are running far better, mostly stable, without stuttering comparing to MAME or any other rubbish you are talking.
Lets take Star Wars Trilogy or Crazy Taxi for example  or any Daytona.
Edited by uman (08/19/14 06:35 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330158 - 08/19/14 07:23 PM
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> First BSNES can be run fullscreen, dont know what you are talking. Have you ever
> pressed F11 on BSNES or Higan (newer version of BSNES) ?
>
> Second: there is no stuttering...period... either you are to noob to setup properly
> or you have some lame rig.
I have never gotten bsnes or Higan to run well on my system. i7-2600K @ 4.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM, GeForce GTX780 GPU takes care of "some lame rig" and well, you *can* claim I'm "to (sic) noob", but I don't think that's going to go well for you. (Higan thus joins that Japanese M1 kinda-clone I can't recall the name of as 'software I've never gotten to run properly').
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Road Runner question
[Re: Antny]
#330159 - 08/19/14 07:24 PM
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> I know it makes it way to CAX. Does anyone know who owns the prototype? Anyone MAME
> friendly?
As far as I can recall I've only seen the RR conventional video game at CAX, not the laserdisc one. And I've been to a significant number of them.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: F1ReB4LL]
#330160 - 08/19/14 07:28 PM
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> Or Entertainment Science's "Bouncer".
Yeah, that's the true holy grail IMHO. That might be my fondness for the 1970s/early 80s Hanna-Barbera art style speaking though.
> Or those 3DO-based prototypes - "Die Alien Scum!!" and "Beavis
> and Butt-Head".
I know we have at least one of those and possibly both dumped. One of those was the famous instance where Aaron was holding a laptop in the middle of the floor at CAX while I typed in CDRDAO commands
3D0 itself remains a hard problem though, mostly due to Russian licensing. Uncle Phil could make a lot of us very happy, but he'd have to install a dashcam in his car.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330161 - 08/19/14 07:58 PM
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Which core did you use? If you use the accurate one, than you need a serious CPU, but with your rig, it shouldnt be a problem, to run it at 60FPS.
There are only two cases / games, where you would need that accuracy. All other games can be played superb with the balanced core.
If you cant run it well, than this is your own problem, because hundred of thousands users will not agree with you, including me .
Please dont talk lame about emulators, that you all cant setup properly. those developers deserve much more credits and not your "bad talk" (without any knowledge) about their emulators.
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Re: Road Runner question
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330164 - 08/19/14 10:09 PM
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> > I know it makes it way to CAX. Does anyone know who owns the prototype? Anyone MAME
> > friendly?
>
> As far as I can recall I've only seen the RR conventional video game at CAX, not the
> laserdisc one. And I've been to a significant number of them.
According to this... http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/games/related/prototype/atari.asp
...the prototype cabinet was on display at California Extreme 2010. Wish I was there for it. 
Regardless, there's some nice pics of:
-Master tape used for LaserDisc pressing
-Cabinet
-Control Panel
More discussion regarding its presence at the show... http://forums.arcade-museum.com/archive/index.php/t-143242.html
According to the above link "DirkDDS" owns the game (at least at that time).
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Reged: 10/25/10
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330170 - 08/20/14 02:30 AM
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> If you cant run it well, than this is your own problem, because hundred of thousands
> users will not agree with you, including me .
>
> Please dont talk lame about emulators, that you all cant setup properly. those
> developers deserve much more credits and not your "bad talk" (without any knowledge)
> about their emulators.
Seriously? Your kidding us right?
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330173 - 08/20/14 03:37 AM
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> There are already scenarios in which it can fool people who own the original boards.
> There are already drivers in MAME that are so close that they're beyond the point of
> the average human's ability to discern the difference. A friend of a friend is a
> collector who owns almost every NeoGeo cart. I showed him my GroovyMAME setup. He
> honestly couldn't tell the difference. MAME's NeoGeo driver is that good. Of course,
> there aren't a ton of drivers in MAME that are as good as the NeoGeo driver yet, but
> the point is that all this "will never reach the real thing" talk is a load of
> dogshit.
Oh come on, NeoGeo is a bad example. It's a system where you actually can pick an emulator because the additional latency inherent in emulation is noticeable in the twitchy fighting games. There's always going to be a frame of video lag and at least a little audio latency, and the NeoGeo just happens to have lots of games that make that obvious.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#330177 - 08/20/14 04:24 AM
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One frame of video lag is not noticeable to 99% of the population, and people seem to be even less picky about audio. The NeoGeo is one of the few drivers in MAME that doesn't have a lot of minor graphical glitches that give it away.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330182 - 08/20/14 05:05 AM
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> One frame of video lag is not noticeable to 99% of the population, and people seem to
> be even less picky about audio. The NeoGeo is one of the few drivers in MAME that
> doesn't have a lot of minor graphical glitches that give it away.
Oh no argument on the actual rendering accuracy - that's been as close as you can get to perfect since the rewrite based on Charles MacDonald's investigation. The easiest place to hear audio lag is on character selection screens. Video lag you probably have to build up some experience playing the right kinds of games to learn to notice.
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Re: Road Runner question
[Re: Trebor]
#330185 - 08/20/14 05:34 AM
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I've seen the YouTube video of the RR proto for quite some time now. I didn't notice that part of the background is taken off of the laser disc (according to the article). I just thought it was the same game as the later one with the laser disc adding the "cut scenes".
I would love to see it up close.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: B2K24]
#330187 - 08/20/14 05:48 AM
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Very funny, maybe uman can give a brief tutorial to RB on how to set up BSNES. While he's at it maybe he can show him how to set up M-1. Rumor has it that RB has never been able to set up M-1 properly either (I could be because of his poor rig though). 
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: B2K24]
#330204 - 08/20/14 03:07 PM
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First I apologize, if you are feeling upset or offended, but I dont get it, what shall be bad on BSNES and maybe I am wrong and dont know it better. At least I didnt had any problems playing through Super Mario World and there where no hiccups that I was aware of, same goes for Axelay or Starfox.
What is wrong, when I say, you can play BSNES fullscreen? Press F11 and you have it.
Doesnt matter... Gods of MAME have spoken... I know.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330206 - 08/20/14 04:11 PM
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> It is impossible to run BSNES and Demul without stuttering. And no, I'm not talking
> about stuttering from running below 100% speed. They still stutter even if you get
> 100% speed.
If there is "stuttering" that means yours PC in not enough power, in any emulator, period.
CPU/GPU load is not constant value, it can spikes 2x or so from time to time, if yours PC is not enough powerful - there will be "stuttering" during such spikes.
about bSNES/Higan - I not have any problems you mentioned, at lest on Compatibility and Performance emulation profiles. probably you have ancient piece of shit instead of PC 
about Demul - GPU emulation here works using on-the-fly shader compilation/caching, so at very first start of some game there will be stuttering or even freezing, until needed shaders will be compiled or loaded from cache, but after that games works normally with constant speed.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: MetalliC]
#330208 - 08/20/14 04:24 PM
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> If there is "stuttering" that means yours PC in not enough power, in any emulator,
> period.
>
> about bSNES/Higan - I not have any problems you mentioned, at lest on Compatibility
> and Performance emulation profiles. probably you have ancient piece of shit instead
> of PC
>
> about Demul - GPU emulation here works using on-the-fly shader compilation/caching,
> so at very first start of some game there will be stuttering or even freezing, until
> needed shaders will be compiled or loaded from cache, but after that games works
> normally with constant speed.
absolutely true and there is nothing to add.... thats the story and thats how it is 
Edited by uman (08/20/14 04:27 PM)
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: MetalliC]
#330209 - 08/20/14 04:53 PM
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I have an Intel 3770k CPU and 680GTX video card. It never dips below 100% speed.
It stutters regardless of which performance profile you use. I've tried it on 8 different computers (some are faster than the 3770k and some slower). It stutters on all of them. You're objectively wrong.
There really isn't a way to say this without offending you, but the most likely scenario is that your senses aren't sharp enough to actually notice the stuttering. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330210 - 08/20/14 05:38 PM
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and you have no plan . you even didnt know to press F11 for fullscreen in BSNES, so i would better stfu.
on oneside you tell that people dont feel one frame lagging, but on the other side, you are talking about some imagery stutter that no one sees except your really sharp eyes... cmon dude, you are talking complete bullshit.
God only knows, what you do with your rig (but it sounds like a PAL game played on 60hz), but your case is not the normal case and therefore, you should not talk that nonsense about a emulator, that you have no plan of.
PS: tested on 4 machines, all no problem .
Edited by uman (08/20/14 05:48 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9716
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: Antny]
#330212 - 08/20/14 05:54 PM
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> Very funny, maybe uman can give a brief tutorial to RB on how to set up BSNES. While
> he's at it maybe he can show him how to set up M-1. Rumor has it that RB has never
> been able to set up M-1 properly either (I could be because of his poor rig though).
uman has the flavor of someone who's been banned before, but I can't quite place who. I'm leaning Abracadabra, because he's following the usual MO of starting kinda almost reasonable and trending towards spit-flecked insane in each new post, but other bets/guesses are welcome.
(Could just be someone Vas Crabbin' it too - if so it's extra clever of Vas to post as himself on the same thread).
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330217 - 08/20/14 06:54 PM
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330218 - 08/20/14 07:15 PM
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I have no clue about what you are talking. I never was banned before and I am, who I am... u-man
... but guess what you want.
My experience with BSNES varies from yours, who accept what, is another story. Your arguments are very short on this regarding BSNES. Maybe your wisdom can be a little more specific, in what I am saying wrong here.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9716
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330221 - 08/20/14 08:30 PM
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> My experience with BSNES varies from yours, who accept what, is another story. Your
> arguments are very short on this regarding BSNES. Maybe your wisdom can be a little
> more specific, in what I am saying wrong here.
It's very simple. Each user's experience *is* their "wisdom" regarding that app. My experience happens to be quite negative for bsnes/higan; many have attempted to help me but satisfactory operation on my machine has never been achieved. That doesn't take away from his spectacular achievement in SNES accuracy and it doesn't mean it's bad software, just that there are configurations where it runs poorly, for whatever reason, and insulting me (or bigbluefe) doesn't make it otherwise.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330244 - 08/21/14 01:10 AM
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Should I laugh or cry now?
First I never insulted you. If you think its insulting, if I point to your setup (without knowing your specs), than I am sorry. Its my 8 post now and I didnt read your 8000 before, to know that, again sorry for this.
Now lets come to bigblueaffe. Lets see how he started his 2nd post:
"Take Demul, for example. Yeah, maybe it emulates Naomi games better than MAME does, but it has microstuttering and runs like ass even if you're getting 100% speed. "
simply not true and no proof for this, except his "amazing" setup. Beside all of this, MAME is much worser in any aspect, regarding these games.
"BSNES has the same problem. Sure, it might be an accurate SNES emulator, but it's a shitty Windows program. I've tried BSNES on at least 8 different computers, and it couldn't run without hitching/audio breakup on any of them even though they all got 100% speed. It also only runs in windowed mode, so it doesn't work with G-Sync."
Aha... shitty Windows program..runs like ass.. doesnt mean it´s bad software? what does it mean then, tell me? this is no insult to the authors of these great emulators? Beside all of this, he even doesnt know, how to make a fullscreen, but talking that way... mmmh.ok.... NOT.
Lets take a look at his 3rd post:
"You can find out how things really work inside and still be a shitty application that's effectively worthless in terms of actually playing games. BSNES is a shining example of that."
Ohhh what have we here again.... shitty application and BSNES a shining example of that... what a nice gentleman , nice language and behaviour.. thumbs up for tolerating such statements and even defend such dumb people.
Post Nr 4.:
"It is impossible to run BSNES and Demul without stuttering. And no, I'm not talking about stuttering from running below 100% speed. They still stutter even if you get 100% speed.
I can see why BSNES is fucked, given that it always runs in windowed mode so is subject to desktop composition rape and other problems. No windowed program truly has control over the frames it's outputting in Windows 7 onward. Not sure what the deal is with Demul."
talking pure rubbish in god-mode... like, if its not working on my setup, it doesnt work anywhere else. And again showing great knowledge how to operate BSNES by insulting this App.... hey, applause for this. Till here i was even friendly to him. But beyond that point, i wasnt friendly anymore. this awesome knowledge needed a little lesson.
coming to the last red carpet from this bigaffe: "There really isn't a way to say this without offending you, but the most likely scenario is that your senses aren't sharp enough to actually notice the stuttering. Ignorance is bliss, I guess."
to be honest, if I would be the creator of any of these emulators and would see this bigaffe in real life, I would punch his face so long, that he would have a natural blur shader 2.0 on his razorsharp-eagle-eyes, till the end of his life... that kind of emotion is with me, when I read his absurd postings here.
The fact that all you MAME gods, are tolerating his behaviour even more than mine, shows no good light and no respect to other peoples work, on this forum and it goes definetily into a wrong direction. If you want to ban someone, ban him.
Edited by uman (08/21/14 01:33 AM)
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330251 - 08/21/14 04:11 AM
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> and you have no plan . you even didnt know to press F11 for fullscreen in BSNES, so i
> would better stfu.
>
> on oneside you tell that people dont feel one frame lagging, but on the other side,
> you are talking about some imagery stutter that no one sees except your really sharp
> eyes... cmon dude, you are talking complete bullshit.
>
> God only knows, what you do with your rig (but it sounds like a PAL game played on
> 60hz), but your case is not the normal case and therefore, you should not talk that
> nonsense about a emulator, that you have no plan of.
>
> PS: tested on 4 machines, all no problem .
I know what F11 does in BSNES. You're the one who doesn't understand what it does. F11 in BSNES runs in borderless window mode. It's not a true full screen exclusive mode. With Windows 7 Aero and Windows 8, you're running the desktop windows manager, which will freely suck resources from BSNES and use them for the desktop. It does not run smoothly. Windows applications in windowed mode will never run perfectly smoothly. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: uman]
#330253 - 08/21/14 04:14 AM
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Why are you quoting my statements and asking Belmont to explain them? Those aren't his statements, and he never even mentioned Demul. If you're going to argue with Belmont, make your arguments based on what he typed--not what I typed.
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: CaH4e3]
#330254 - 08/21/14 04:18 AM
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I think we both know that low quality 30fps video isn't really going to prove anything when it comes to the kinds of defects we're talking about here.
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| Tafoid |
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Reged: 04/19/06
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Posts: 3135
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Loc: USA
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Re: Ars article on 'unemulated games'
[Re: bigbluefe]
#330260 - 08/21/14 05:39 AM
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Sorry everyone, this topic is about an article concerning unemulated games. The train has gotten way too far off track to be salvaged. Discuss elsewhere if you must.
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