|
PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
#318472 - 12/10/13 02:30 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: mike20599]
#318476 - 12/10/13 03:28 PM
|
|
|
I don't know their specs but if they are just a high spec PC then theoretically someone could make a loader and cracker program like we saw with Type X but an actual portable emulator like mame, no absolutely not. It's just to an end user who doesn't understand the difference in an emulator and a loader, the end result might be the same (games running on their PC that shouldn't) so someone might call it an emulator not knowing any better.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: mike20599]
#318485 - 12/10/13 04:50 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318498 - 12/10/13 08:35 PM
|
|
|
There won't be much of a problem on the Hardware side, it's just all the layers of encryption you'd have to get past, which is both software and dedicated hardware based with an ARM co-processor on the Motherboard to take care of such stuff.
Don't know why you'd want to do it anyway...I'm sure 90% of the games due on both of these machines will be ported to PC anyway, with the exception of Triple A 1st party exclusives which drive actual sales of the hardware.
Edited by Ziggy100 (12/10/13 08:37 PM)
|
|
|
| CTOJAH |
|
MAME Addict
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 07/13/10
|
|
Posts: 980
|
|
Loc: Macedonia,Veles
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
The answer is within the question !
[Re: Ziggy100]
#318504 - 12/10/13 09:54 PM
|
|
|
> There won't be much of a problem on the Hardware side, it's just all the layers of
> encryption you'd have to get past, which is both software and dedicated hardware
> based with an ARM co-processor on the Motherboard to take care of such stuff.
>
> Don't know why you'd want to do it anyway...I'm sure 90% of the games due on both of
> these machines will be ported to PC anyway, with the exception of Triple A 1st party
> exclusives which drive actual sales of the hardware.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#318511 - 12/10/13 11:28 PM
|
|
|
> There won't be much of a problem on the Hardware side
Great, I'm looking forward to your emulator!
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318518 - 12/11/13 01:33 AM
|
|
|
> > There won't be much of a problem on the Hardware side
>
> Great, I'm looking forward to your emulator!
There would be a tonne of work, with a billion dollars I'd be able to put a team together.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#318519 - 12/11/13 01:36 AM
|
|
|
The PS4 and Xbox One have a x86 processer which means that it's architecture is the same as pc. Basically it is built like a powerfull computer but uses optimized OS that dedicates it's resources to the game, well the PS4 does a good job at that, Xbox is pree f*ing stupid when they made their game plan. With that said the OS they use isn't Windows like the Type X/X2/X3. It is a OS built upon it's UNIX in the case for PS4 not sure how they made Xbox. It would be an emulator not a loader for those reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
That makes sense. It's just not a hardware CPU emulator like I'm used to which is the backbone of game support in the emulators I use, though maybe that will expand if mame ever supports recent arcade games that were released on PC hardware. I guess that would make those games not portable to other platforms though if there is no CPU core.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: ]
#318563 - 12/11/13 07:02 PM
|
|
|
> There would be a tonne of work, with a billion dollars I'd be able to put a team
> together.
Yes, hence my skepticism that it's actually anything approaching "easy".
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318566 - 12/11/13 07:43 PM
|
|
|
Quote:
Yes, hence my skepticism that it's actually anything approaching "easy".
Hmm, I think my statement about the hardware not being a problem has been misinterpreted, my fault, I should have explained a bit further.
If emulation of these systems was to take the Mame approach then comeback in about 2030, it should be at about 5fps by then.
My thoughts were more in line of Dolphin/PCSX2 style emulation..which is very 'per game hacks' specific, 'quick and dirty' if you like...the sort of coding that brings forth looks of disgust and ridicule from Mame Dev members.
At the end of the day, the CPU/GPU on these consoles are just customised x86 based, with layers and layers of encryption stopping you from running home brew stuff on them...break through that, and the rest will soon(ish) follow if the will to do it is out there.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: Ziggy100]
#318572 - 12/11/13 08:27 PM
|
|
|
> My thoughts were more in line of Dolphin/PCSX2 style emulation..which is very 'per
> game hacks' specific, 'quick and dirty' if you like...the sort of coding that brings
> forth looks of disgust and ridicule from Mame Dev members.
Actually neither Dolphin nor PCSX2 are especially based on per-game-hacks; the architecture of those machines is such that there is almost nothing you can HLE in any significant way. Dolphin in particular you can trivially configure to be 100% MAMEdev-approved and still very fast on attainable hardware (it's also most compatible that way, unsurprisingly). It's why I cite it as a big victory for truly open-source emulation.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318579 - 12/12/13 12:02 AM
|
|
|
> Yes, hence my skepticism that it's actually anything approaching "easy".
It depends on what you mean by "easy". Most things that appear easy with emulation have actually been a huge amount of work. It's been a while since people could rock up and show off something they knocked up over the weekend and anyone would be impressed.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: Smitdogg]
#318580 - 12/12/13 12:59 AM
|
|
|
> though maybe that will expand if mame ever supports recent arcade games that were
> released on PC hardware. I guess that would make those games not portable to
> other platforms though if there is no CPU core.
We could do with an X86 DRC, but the CPU is not the thing that would be hard to do a full emulation. Its the GPU.
In theory you could probably do a WINE like system for the PS4/xboxone if you wanted to just be able to run the games. Although that method was tried with the xbox and that didn't work out too well, because it seems like each game had different libraries.
Once you need to emulate the hardware then trying to run the binaries natively becomes a huge burden, because you don't have the PS4/xboxone hardware sitting there ready. You're in the VirtualPC/HyperV style of emulator, the way they do 3d hardware isn't possible unless you can install your own graphics drivers though.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: ]
#318590 - 12/12/13 05:14 AM
|
|
|
My understanding is that both systems use a custom AMD A10 Jaguar processor with 8 cores. The AMD FX-9370 is a related (piledriver) chip and is available at Newegg, so the hardware side of things can be supported. Great for the emulation overhead.
Software wise would be with Aaron. After all he was on the development team....right?
Ooh! How ironic would that be?
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: ]
#318604 - 12/12/13 03:29 PM
|
|
|
> It depends on what you mean by "easy". Most things that appear easy with emulation
> have actually been a huge amount of work.
I am aware of what effort is involved to emulate things. Stop trolling me.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318606 - 12/12/13 05:40 PM
|
|
|
> > It depends on what you mean by "easy". Most things that appear easy with emulation
> > have actually been a huge amount of work.
>
> I am aware of what effort is involved to emulate things. Stop trolling me.
you're imagining things.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: RW-Column]
#318607 - 12/12/13 05:45 PM
|
|
|
> My understanding is that both systems use a custom AMD A10 Jaguar processor with 8
> cores. The AMD FX-9370 is a related (piledriver) chip and is available at Newegg, so
> the hardware side of things can be supported.
Without identical hardware, you might end up having to emulate a lot in software to achieve the minute differences in hardware.
You're making a lot of assumptions about what you can do without putting any real effort into it.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: RW-Column]
#318610 - 12/12/13 06:32 PM
|
|
|
> My understanding is that both systems use a custom AMD A10 Jaguar processor with 8
> cores. The AMD FX-9370 is a related (piledriver) chip and is available at Newegg, so
> the hardware side of things can be supported. Great for the emulation overhead.
The chips in the consoles are not identical to any consumer-available chip, and an emulator that ran only on AMD processors would be useless when they go out of business next year (Sony and MS fab the chips themselves, so that wouldn't affect them).
> Software wise would be with Aaron. After all he was on the development team....right?
Aaron was not involved with Xbone. Dave Cutler, the original author of WinNT, did the OS work. Also, Aaron likes his job and would like to keep it and not be prosecuted.
Xbone's software stack is a modified version of MS Virtual PC running more or less on the bare hardware, and two always-running VMs: VM1 runs games on a revision of the 360's stripped-down Windows with no-COM DirectX and other differences for efficiency (so e.g. a Wine-like solution would be impractical) and VM2 runs apps like IE11, Skype and the dashboard on basically stock WinRT 8.1.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
|
> The PS4 and Xbox One have a x86 processer which means that it's architecture is the
> same as pc.
The Seibu SPI games have a 386 but are not PC compatible in any way, to pick an easy example. x86 does not imply PC compatibility, in the same way that CPS-1 Street Fighter 2 won't run on an Amiga even though they both have 68000 processors.
|
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: ]
#318616 - 12/12/13 07:53 PM
|
|
|
> > My understanding is that both systems use a custom AMD A10 Jaguar processor with 8
> > cores. The AMD FX-9370 is a related (piledriver) chip and is available at Newegg,
> so
> > the hardware side of things can be supported.
>
> Without identical hardware, you might end up having to emulate a lot in software to
> achieve the minute differences in hardware.
>
> You're making a lot of assumptions about what you can do without putting any real
> effort into it.
True but one (collective) would have to start along the same path as the original project. Bare metal virtualization is everywhere and I am not saying that you can emulate a next gen console with an off the shelf chip and ESXi platform.
Does anyone here know for certain that the Xbox One is completely different platform, and impossible to clone with off the shelf components?
What I am saying is that development of a Xbox One emulator would be pointless at this stage. Let Microsoft do all the work in their next retail platform and go from there.
Besides most of the games will be PC based except for their exclusives. The PS4 emulation is not worth the time or effort.
I would be more interested what the Xbox One would be capable of if the protection was bypassed via cloak technology.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: RW-Column]
#318622 - 12/12/13 10:51 PM
|
|
|
> The PS4 emulation is not worth the time or effort.
Why do you say that, specifically? To a fairly large extent, if you emulate one without excessive cheating you get both for free.
> I would be more interested what the Xbox One would be capable of if the protection
> was bypassed via cloak technology.
The protection isn't slowing it down. The slow RAM and much lower-spec GPU vs. the PS4 are its biggest liabilities for gaming by far. They're why Forza 5 has sprites for the scenery instead of being true 3D like the X360 Forza 4 was. But based on the ads, at least in the US, they intend it as more of a "TV companion" than a gaming system anyway.
|
|
|
| Naoki |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 11/10/09
|
|
Posts: 1998
|
|
Loc: United Kingdom
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318625 - 12/13/13 12:34 AM
|
|
|
>But based on the
> ads, at least in the US, they intend it as more of a "TV companion" than a gaming
> system anyway.
The name was chosen as way as symbolizing it's the One thing you need to use to watch or do anything AFAIC.
Plus, like Ashens said, funny how both Sony and Microsoft flipped there perspective on what the console should do batter, games or media.
|
----
On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: RW-Column]
#318647 - 12/13/13 11:58 AM
|
|
|
> What I am saying is that development of a Xbox One emulator would be pointless at
> this stage. Let Microsoft do all the work in their next retail platform and go from
> there.
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
1. Microsoft will have another platform, they might stick with this and just ramp the speed/number of cores.
2. That a future platform will be backwards compatible at all.
3. That they won't just shrink the current chipset down for backwards compatibility.
4. That if they do a software emulator, that the next platform will be similar enough to a PC that you could make any use of it.
5. That if they do a software emulator that you'll be able to extract it.
You have a wish list, not a plan.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9716
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: Naoki]
#318665 - 12/13/13 06:10 PM
|
|
|
> The name was chosen as way as symbolizing it's the One thing you need to use to watch
> or do anything AFAIC
Actually it's from their internal mantra which they also shared with developers: "Input one". Meaning it's the primary HDMI port on your TV and you run your other stuff through its input. I didn't hook mine up that way though - my satellite box is pokey enough without adding 1/2 a second of input lag, thanks MS 
|
|
|
| Naoki |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 11/10/09
|
|
Posts: 1998
|
|
Loc: United Kingdom
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318670 - 12/13/13 07:59 PM
|
|
|
> > The name was chosen as way as symbolizing it's the One thing you need to use to
> watch
> > or do anything AFAIC
>
> Actually it's from their internal mantra which they also shared with developers:
> "Input one". Meaning it's the primary HDMI port on your TV and you run your other
> stuff through its input. I didn't hook mine up that way though - my satellite box is
> pokey enough without adding 1/2 a second of input lag, thanks MS
Aha. If I had one in that case it'd be Xbox Three. HDMI input 3 because it's not that special to me plus then the name makes sense.
Thanks for clarifying.
|
----
On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
|
|
Index 
Threaded 
PS4 and XBox One easy to emulate?
Reply
[Re: 
