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Is Pong more accurate in MAME or DICE (or is it a tie)?
#317524 - 11/19/13 05:10 AM
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Okay guys, please indulge a technologically challenged old man (born in 1967). I'm really getting geeked about playing all the games DICE offers, though some of them run at a low number of frames per second on the old PC in my cab. Pong runs fine, though, and I'd love to add it to my MAME wheel in HyperSpin, but I also understand it's available in newer versions of MAME now (I'm running MAME 0.145, so no MAME Pong for me as it stands now). First off, does anyone know if the MAME version of Pong emulates the game just as accurately as the DICE version? Next... Even if DICE is more accurate, I'm really not sure I'll be able to pull off running Pong in DICE through my HyperSpin MAME wheel - from what I've read in the HyperSpin forums that looks like a daunting task for me (I struggled mightily in figuring out how to run a PC SIMulation of Pong from my MAME wheel if that gives you an idea of my level of understanding when it comes to HyperSpin). So, if for whatever reason(s) I would want to use MAME instead of DICE, here comes my really dumb question... If I upgrade to MAME 0.146 or higher for the sake of Pong, what happens to all the game-specific input tweaks I've made in my current version of MAME? I can't even imagine all the man-hours I've spent doing stuff like, say, adjusting the sensitivity of my spinner for Super Breakout. Thanks for listening!
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Is Pong more accurate in MAME or DICE (or is it a tie)?
[Re: RPOR6V]
#317649 - 11/21/13 07:51 PM
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> First off, does anyone know if the MAME version of Pong emulates the game
> just as accurately as the DICE version?
Yes, and MAME may arguably have an edge in 0.152 thanks to recent additional work by Couriersud.
> If I upgrade to
> MAME 0.146 or higher for the sake of Pong, what happens to all the game-specific
> input tweaks I've made in my current version of MAME?
As far as I'm aware, CFG files from 0.146 are still valid. I'd suggest trying it out on a backup first, but I can't think of any reason those sorts of things wouldn't carry forward. (This offer is not valid for older versions, of course).
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Net list questions
[Re: R. Belmont]
#317661 - 11/22/13 12:02 AM
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I see Couriersud is doing a lot of net list work. What exactly is the purpose? New games? Sounds to existing games? Replacement of existing discrete code?
Just wondering........
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Re: Is Pong more accurate in MAME or DICE (or is it a tie)?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#317667 - 11/22/13 01:11 AM
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I don't know if it's just me, but I can't get any of the controls to work in DICE. I've tried playing Pong, and I can't use the mouse, keyboard or game controller. Tried messing with the input settings and nothing I do seems to work :-/
Edited by Envisaged0ne (11/22/13 01:11 AM)
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: Antny]
#317675 - 11/22/13 02:46 AM
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| gregf |
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: Sune]
#317681 - 11/22/13 03:45 AM
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>It looks like improved emulation of capacitors and voltage dividers, both of which into the Pong driver.
My guess is the Pong driver is used as the "test bed" case for whenever the net_list code updates are changed and Pong is tested.
The code might eventually run all aspects such as video games, wall games, discrete components audio outputs and console stuff as well. It would be great if it could also handle some of the early mechanical games such as Midway S.A.M.I., but wishful thinking.
I don't know if the net_list code could eventually interact with current MAME artwork of handling visual backlit lamps of wall games that use artwork, but if the code can eventually run Gremlin's (non-cpu) wall game Trapshoot...I'll be really satisfied. :-)
I'd still need to put up some money in trying to get the artwork scanned properly for a wall game like Trapshoot.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: Antny]
#317701 - 11/22/13 05:24 PM
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> I see Couriersud is doing a lot of net list work. What exactly is the purpose? New
> games? Sounds to existing games? Replacement of existing discrete code?
Overall improvement of the discrete "core". MAME now properly shows the situation (seen on hardware) where the ball in Pong can sometimes interfere with the NTSC sync signal and make the monitor jump for a frame or 3, for instance. (This is the sort of thing that was impossible to emulate with the original Pong driver from back in 0.5x or whatever).
Once this stuff is done it should be easier to add other discrete games and have them work properly.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: R. Belmont]
#317704 - 11/22/13 06:09 PM
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> Overall improvement of the discrete "core".
Is the net list actually used by discrete sound?
I thought it was something new, but it would make sense to be unified.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: ]
#317709 - 11/22/13 06:28 PM
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> Is the net list actually used by discrete sound?
> I thought it was something new, but it would make sense to be unified.
Netlist is purely for discrete games; as I understand it it's over-accurate and under-performant for discrete sound. But we may yet be surprised.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: R. Belmont]
#317758 - 11/23/13 11:39 PM
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> Netlist is purely for discrete games; as I understand it it's over-accurate and
> under-performant for discrete sound. But we may yet be surprised.
It started out as being purely for discrete games. However, quite early in the process I started to realize that I would need "discrete" macro models as in discrete sound again. That's when I started to design the object model to be scalable to pure "analog" devices like resistors and capacitors.
The work got interrupted (job, health and family) for quite a while. However, I managed to have some time here and there to evaluate different approaches to analog circuit simulation. This convinced me that a mixed signal simulation should be feasible now.
Currently, I have a NAND-Multivibrator working (at the end of the pong netlist in pong.c). That's a start. The diode model (Shockley) works as well. For speed, it needs to be exchanged to a linearized model. Even this will be more accurate than the 0.7V the current discrete core assumes.
It's still a long way to go, though.
Accuracy was not the only driver. Currently, only Derrick Renaud and myself are left. The last work on the discrete core has been years ago. It served its purpose well at that time. However, we need something easier. Designing models with the discrete core for somebody without knowledge about it has a very slow learning curve.
With the new netlist code also newbies should be able to translate schematics into netlists. Just because you only take e.g. R38, connect terminal 1 to terminal 1 of C41 and terminal B (Base) of Q13.
NET_C(R38.1, C41.1)
NET_C(C41.1, Q13.B)
the code beneath will take care of nets.
Hope this summarizes the direction.
Edited by couriersud (11/23/13 11:43 PM)
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| gregf |
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: R. Belmont]
#318922 - 12/18/13 10:26 PM
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>MAME now properly shows the situation (seen on hardware) where the ball in Pong can
>sometimes interfere with the NTSC sync signal and make the monitor jump for a frame or
>3, for instance. (This is the sort of thing that was impossible to emulate with the
>original Pong driver from back in 0.36bX or whatever beta version was then.)
I see couriersud sent in an update/fix.
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Fixfreq.c: Don't process hsyncs while we are vsyncing. Fixes video jitter/jumps.
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I agree it likely does happen with real hardware (Pong pcb and black/white tv monitor), but not to the visible extent as what happens when playing pong in MAME .151
If that visual effect in .151 happened with actual Pong and other pong clones hardware back then, that might have been enough to drive folks back to spending money on playing pinball and electro-mechanical games during mid 1970s which would have made Midway, Allied Leisure, and Chicago Coins very happy since they had that market well covered.
As long as I could find and play a Chicago Coins Flying Tigers cab, that made my 1970s era arcade day experience a good one. :-)
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: gregf]
#319032 - 12/20/13 07:45 AM
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> I don't know if the net_list code could eventually interact with current MAME
> artwork of handling visual backlit lamps of wall games that use artwork,
It would be pretty awesome if it could eventually interact with everything because everything was hooked up with a netlist.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: couriersud]
#319033 - 12/20/13 07:59 AM
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> With the new netlist code also newbies should be able to translate schematics into
> netlists. Just because you only take e.g. R38, connect terminal 1 to terminal 1 of
> C41 and terminal B (Base) of Q13.
>
> NET_C(R38.1, C41.1)
> NET_C(C41.1, Q13.B)
>
> the code beneath will take care of nets.
That would be dream come true territory.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: gregf]
#319066 - 12/20/13 09:22 PM
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Interesting stuff.
Quote:
If that visual effect in .151 happened with actual Pong and other pong clones hardware back then, that might have been enough to drive folks back to spending money on playing pinball and electro-mechanical games during mid 1970s which would have made Midway, Allied Leisure, and Chicago Coins very happy since they had that market well covered.
I wouldn't be surprised if the analog signal and all smoothed it over. Besides, it wasn't uncommon even in the 80s on your 19" color TV to experience blips on occasion. As long as it wasn't more than two, the Zen wasn't interrupted.
Quote:
As long as I could find and play a Chicago Coins Flying Tigers cab, that made my 1970s era arcade day experience a good one. :-)
I for some reason as a child was not impressed with arcade machines (pinball, and particularly video games) of the 70s.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: ]
#319067 - 12/20/13 10:05 PM
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Is 'net list' a separate code within MAME's framework? I've been following discussions for a long time and never heard the term until recently.
Is Curriersud the only one that set up the foundation (for lack of a better word) for net list & MAME?
What I found amazing is that once net list reaches a certain point it will be easy to convert schematics into code. Well, that is what I got out of his response.
It also seems like it could help for all aspects of anything discrete? It would be nice to hear sound in those silent games.
I'm very impressed with what he is doing.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: ]
#319211 - 12/24/13 04:13 PM
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> > I don't know if the net_list code could eventually interact with current MAME
> > artwork of handling visual backlit lamps of wall games that use artwork,
>
> It would be pretty awesome if it could eventually interact with everything because
> everything was hooked up with a netlist.
The current implementation is a more-or-less complete MAME device implementation. In 0.153 you'll find basic debugger support as well. Yes, it is designed to interact with everything in MAME.
I yet have to figure out how to use devcb2 to pass around doubles without dirty tricks like union(double, UINT64). And for auto-syncing devices callbacks need to use timers.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: Matty_]
#319212 - 12/24/13 04:17 PM
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> > With the new netlist code also newbies should be able to translate schematics into
> > netlists. Just because you only take e.g. R38, connect terminal 1 to terminal 1 of
> > C41 and terminal B (Base) of Q13.
> >
> > NET_C(R38.1, C41.1)
> > NET_C(C41.1, Q13.B)
> >
> > the code beneath will take care of nets.
>
> That would be dream come true territory.
Pong now has quite some analog stuff - mostly NE555s. Just have a look into pong.c
Currently, most device use pin names from datasheets. It is easy to add another device mapping pin numbers. nld_7400.h has an example.
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Re: Net list questions
[Re: couriersud]
#319254 - 12/25/13 11:33 AM
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> I yet have to figure out how to use devcb2 to pass around doubles without dirty
> tricks like union(double, UINT64).
When I said everything hooked up via a netlist, I meant getting rid of devcb2 read/write line in favour of having pins exposed.
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| gregf |
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Re: Is Pong more accurate in MAME or DICE (or is it a tie)?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#324666 - 04/14/14 10:36 AM
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>>First off, does anyone know if the MAME version of Pong emulates the game
>>just as accurately as the DICE version?
>Yes, and MAME may arguably have an edge in 0.152 thanks to recent additional work by Couriersud.
As for MAME, .153 version, running Pong (personally using 32 bit build version), makes up for the miss in .152 version.
With .153 version, there is a visual flaw when Pong is in attract mode. Whenever the pong/ball hits left side or right side of playfield, there appears to be a horizontal scanline visual effect that flashes on screen and then disappears after pong/ball bounces off of either left side or right side of playfield. Other than that, Pong plays fine imo.
I mentioned it in another post, but Pong Doubles is also supported. In src/mame/drivers/pong.c, is the part that has a portion of Pong Doubles and it refers to Pong Doubles netlist code that is in the tdice.c file for time being. Whether it gets updated and moved around later in future MAME updates is another matter.
--
src/mame/drivers/pong.c
#if PONGD
#include "../../nl_examples/tdice.c"
#undef SRST
#undef VCC
#undef GND
#endif
#if PONGD
ROM_START( pongd ) /* dummy to satisfy game entry*/
ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "maincpu", ROMREGION_ERASE00 )
ROM_END
#endif
#if PONGD
GAME( 1974, pongd, 0, pongd, pongd, driver_device, 0, ROT0, "Atari", "Pong Doubles", GAME_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
#endif
/nl_examples/tdice.c
CIRCUIT_LAYOUT( pongdoubles )
CIRCUIT_LAYOUT_END
--
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