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Matt Ownby
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My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author)
#316563 - 10/30/13 08:24 PM


Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong forum, but the other threads on the subject are here so this seems appropriate.

For those of you who don't know me (probably most of you), I wrote the Daphne emulator.

I took some time to write a blog post on the subject. It probably will upset some, but I suspect (hope) it will make sense to others.

Click here for blog post



Jason
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316565 - 10/30/13 09:00 PM


Forget about the MAME license for a minute ... something more disturbing to me is the fact that you don't appreciate it when people thank you for the work you do. I understand a thank you isn't income but the very least you can do is be appreciative when someone says thanks. If you feel like you're being taken advantage of, maybe it's time to stop developing.



R. Belmont
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316566 - 10/30/13 09:02 PM


Hi Matt,

I think that makes a lot of sense, especially in the context of Daphne where properly working laserdisc players are very much an endangered species.

That said, I want to reiterate that MAMEdev has no plans to ever make any commercial version even if the license allowed it.



Matt Ownby
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Jason]
#316567 - 10/30/13 09:23 PM


> Forget about the MAME license for a minute ... something more disturbing to me is the
> fact that you don't appreciate it when people thank you for the work you do. I
> understand a thank you isn't income but the very least you can do is be appreciative
> when someone says thanks.

hi Jason,

I can understand how you would take exception to my comments. Let me try to clarify. Here is a typical situation:

An excited user comes to my chat room and says "I just spend $2000 on a top of the line multi-arcade game cabinet! I just spent $50 for some fancy frontend with skins. I just dropped another $50 for DVDs from some guy selling Daphne + Dragon's Lair mpegs. Thank you so much for Daphne! YOU'VE MADE MY DREAMS COME TRUE!!! I can finally play Dragon's Lair again!!!!! I've wanted this so much since I was a child!!!"

I know this guy is just a fan and he is excited and he thinks he is making my day by personally thanking me BUT the ultimate message that I hear is:

"The work that the guy put in to bundle Daphne+Dragon'sLairMPEG onto one DVD for me is worth $50. The work that you did to write the emulator in the first place is worth $0."

This kills my motivation to keep working on the project.

> If you feel like you're being taken advantage of, maybe
> it's time to stop developing.

I have stopped developing publicly, for several years now. I continue to develop privately.



Matt Ownby
Daphne Creator
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Posts: 45
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: R. Belmont]
#316568 - 10/30/13 09:25 PM


> Hi Matt,
>
> I think that makes a lot of sense, especially in the context of Daphne where properly
> working laserdisc players are very much an endangered species.
>
> That said, I want to reiterate that MAMEdev has no plans to ever make any commercial
> version even if the license allowed it.

Glad to hear it. You are one of the people whose opinion on the subject matters to me. Still waiting to hear from a few others I've pinged



Antny
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316573 - 10/31/13 12:31 AM


>I have stopped developing publicly, for several years now. I continue to develop privately.

Sad, that people like that turned you off. I guess that means we will never see an updated Daphne.


Many people appreciate what you have created (including myself).



Matt Ownby
Daphne Creator
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Antny]
#316577 - 10/31/13 01:42 AM


> > I have stopped developing publicly, for several years now. I continue to develop
> privately.
>
> Sad, that people like that turned you off. I guess that means we will never see an
> updated Daphne.
>
>
> Many people appreciate what you have created (including myself).

Thanks for the kind words!



vitaflo
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316579 - 10/31/13 02:47 AM


> I know this guy is just a fan and he is excited and he thinks he is making my day by
> personally thanking me BUT the ultimate message that I hear is:
>
> "The work that the guy put in to bundle Daphne+Dragon'sLairMPEG onto one DVD for me
> is worth $50. The work that you did to write the emulator in the first place is worth
> $0."
>
> This kills my motivation to keep working on the project.

Really? I would think it would do the reverse. Someone is willing to pay $50 for your work (albeit to someone else). This shows your work has real value, not zero. If it were me, I'd start charging for Daphne after seeing this because I now know there is a market out there for it.

Alas, I think that is most likely the entire point of your blog post.



SailorSat
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316602 - 10/31/13 09:24 AM


> Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong forum, but the other threads on the subject
> are here so this seems appropriate.
>
> For those of you who don't know me (probably most of you), I wrote the Daphne
> emulator.
>
> I took some time to write a blog post on the subject. It probably will upset some,
> but I suspect (hope) it will make sense to others.
>
> Click here for blog post

I can see your point.

Having "hacked together" multi-instance link-play (in MAME) for my wingwar cabinet, I got to some point where it fits _MY_ needs (my wingwar is fully functional now). I get asked by several people if I could also take a look at game X or game Y.

Basically the same goes for Soft-15kHz - at first it was a pure "proof-of-concept". Then I got ambitious, and adapted more and more drivers and video cards (currently have over 200 different VGA cards in a huge box...). At some point, I lost that driving interest in the project, as it simply "works for me".
(guess I should release the sources to the public anyway ^^)

I don't know if being paid for it would do the trick though.
(One can still send donations for Soft-15kHz)

---

On the other hand, that's where the community comes into play.
Most likely there are other developers in the community who would love to do a GUI/Frontend/whatever to make it fit their needs.
Closing the source won't do the trick here.



I do all that stuff even without a Joystick
Soft-15kHz, cabMAME, For Amusement Only e.V.



HowardC
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316629 - 10/31/13 08:32 PM


> > Forget about the MAME license for a minute ... something more disturbing to me is
> the
> > fact that you don't appreciate it when people thank you for the work you do. I
> > understand a thank you isn't income but the very least you can do is be
> appreciative
> > when someone says thanks.
>
> hi Jason,
>
> I can understand how you would take exception to my comments. Let me try to clarify.
> Here is a typical situation:
>
> An excited user comes to my chat room and says "I just spend $2000 on a top of the
> line multi-arcade game cabinet! I just spent $50 for some fancy frontend with skins.
> I just dropped another $50 for DVDs from some guy selling Daphne + Dragon's Lair
> mpegs. Thank you so much for Daphne! YOU'VE MADE MY DREAMS COME TRUE!!! I can finally
> play Dragon's Lair again!!!!! I've wanted this so much since I was a child!!!"
>
> I know this guy is just a fan and he is excited and he thinks he is making my day by
> personally thanking me BUT the ultimate message that I hear is:
>
> "The work that the guy put in to bundle Daphne+Dragon'sLairMPEG onto one DVD for me
> is worth $50. The work that you did to write the emulator in the first place is worth
> $0."
>
> This kills my motivation to keep working on the project.
>
> > If you feel like you're being taken advantage of, maybe
> > it's time to stop developing.
>
> I have stopped developing publicly, for several years now. I continue to develop
> privately.

Matt honestly this has lowered my opinion of you... I thought you knew better.

Emulators and emulation are supposed to be free, period. It's one thing if the original commercial entity has commissioned someone to write an emulator and properly release their stuff, but if not you are making money by selling someone elses IP. Even if it isn't illegal to do so, it can certainly be considered immoral.

I know that Daphne's case is a bit special, as you support three commercially available games with permission, but the rest of the games in Daphne... well the only way to get them really is to steal them (nope owning the laserdiscs doesn't give you any legal rights unfortunately).

So as much as I think piracy is b.s. on the other hand it isn't a good idea to release a piece of software specifically designed to support piracy if you are going to charge for it.

Writing an emulator or doing anything for this community reall, is a tedious, thankless job. It is supposed to be, you are supposed to do it for the love of the game (literally). If you don't have that mindset then you shouldn't be involved in game preservation.

We are the digital equivalent of museum curators, charity workers, and historians. It's always nice to get a thank you and even nicer to have a few bucks thrown your way, but you should NEVER expect it. That's getting paid to do the right thing. Who does that?


I think you are going to take this the wrong way so let me clarify.

Just as some examples:

If made a deal with digital leisure to have a custom "turn-key" version of daphne included with their discs I would be all for it and willing to pay for it. DL gets some money, you get some money, everybody is happy.

If you were to get permission from DL to sell a special build of daphne that only supports their games, again I'd pay for that. It would be on the up and up.

On the other hand paying you to play games I can't buy legally or donating to bribe you into supporting more games I still can't buy legally. Yeah that's not happening.

I love ya, man. I've always been a proud supporter of your work and daphne in general, but the thought that you've been holding back public releases because we didn't pay you sickens me. It's your right to be selfish, but you need to understand that you are being selfish. It doesn't cost you a red cent to release software you've already wrote, so there isn't any reason not to.



Matt Ownby
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: HowardC]
#316635 - 10/31/13 09:44 PM


> Matt honestly this has lowered my opinion of you... I thought you knew better.

This hurts, Howard. I have routinely defended you over the years from others around me who have had negative things to say about you. Now I feel a little stupid.

> If made a deal with digital leisure to have a custom "turn-key" version of daphne
> included with their discs I would be all for it and willing to pay for it. DL gets
> some money, you get some money, everybody is happy.
>
> If you were to get permission from DL to sell a special build of daphne that only
> supports their games, again I'd pay for that. It would be on the up and up.

These are the kinds of issues that are cropping up that I am trying to solve.

DaphneLoader could be improved so that Digital Leisure games could be purchased directly from the loader (like Steam). Wouldn't it be nice to not have to have a physical DVD to play these games, while still being legal?

It could also be improved so that other third parties could come in and start offering created-from-scratch laserdisc-styled games (ever heard of SINGE?) and have the loader facilitate delivery of these new games (again like Steam).

It could also be improved so that it could create and bundle up a nice Android or Raspberrry Pi installer that you could conveniently install on said device. It would be really nice and convenient for the end user.

ALL of these improvements cost substantial TIME and MONEY and they have very little to do with preserving memories, they have everything to do with improving the experience for the end user while still protecting the copyright of Digital Leisure (where that applies) which, by the way, also is expensive to do.

(Making DaphneLoader autodownload Digital Leisure games and authenticate to a DVD was expensive development work and had nothing to do with emulation or preservation.)

> It doesn't cost you a red cent to release software you've
> already wrote, so there isn't any reason not to.

That's actually not quite true. Releasing unfinished and/or rough software is actually very expensive. Why? Because it comes with a high cost in the form of technical support and/or bad-mouthing from the community if you won't provide said support. I've learned this lesson over and over and I'm sure mame devs have too.

The lesson is: don't release rough software.

This is why I finally broke down and made DaphneLoader automatically download Dragon's Lair. Because I realized that the software would forever be too hard to use if it didn't.

In the case of RPi, the manual setup process involved is quite complicated today so if I am going to release it at all, I am going to release it so that it "just works". That means probably writing a new from scratch Rpi specific frontend, extending DaphneLoader to facilitate creating some kind of self-extracting RPi archive, and who knows what else. This kind of development work is VERY expensive and has nothing to do with museums, preservation, emulation, or anything else in that area. It has to do with improving the user experience. I'm sorry if you don't see the costs associated here, but I can assure you, they are substantial.



Dullaron
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Off topic sorry. I have Dragon's Lair for my PSP 3000. new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316636 - 10/31/13 10:01 PM


I do enjoy playing it.



W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB



rockford
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316637 - 10/31/13 10:01 PM


I guess as an end-user of emus i have no problem wanting to donate anything i can for the use of said emus. I never expect anything for free and love that others who are smart enough to figure things out like CPU speeds and such take the time to make my childhood dreams come true. I dont really expect anything for my donations but am sometimes surprised.
It saddens me that people who use emus are my age and yet expect a free handout. This is for all emus, not just Daphne or MAME. I just hope one day we will realize that the men/women who work on the emus we all love and use do it for the love of it but also try to make is more user friendly.



WarrenO
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316638 - 10/31/13 10:02 PM


Disclaimer: I’ve worked on Daphne in the past, and have mixed feelings about the idea of making parts of it closed and/or commercial, but I think I understand where he’s coming from on this.

I’m glad to hear Matt respond directly to HowardC's points. I would add, though:

You've always seemed thoughtful (if a bit antagonistic) on Daphne-related issues. But I am dismayed to hear you say it is “supposed” to be a thankless, miserable job, done only for the love of the games. I think that’s the sort of attitude that has driven him to where he is on it now. It was never about money, and surely will never be sufficiently profitable to do for money alone. It’s just a meaningful, tangible way people can show support, and he can feel good about continuing to work on it for them. Presumably parts of it will still be useful to the community at large as well.

Edited by WarrenO (10/31/13 10:04 PM)



Matt Ownby
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: WarrenO]
#316640 - 10/31/13 10:40 PM


Warren is correct.

This isn't about making money (although it may seem that way).

It's about transferring sole responsibility/ownership of Daphne's continued improvement from a few people's shoulders to a broader community's shoulders. Making it "commercial" is just a convenient way to abstract this process to make it simple/feasible for the community to take ownership of Daphne's future.



Rygar9
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316646 - 11/01/13 12:09 AM


I understand your feelings, and definitely see your point.

For what it's worth, I try to support MAME with donations, and I would gladly do the same with Daphne. IMO, your work is valuable, and I try to contribute where I can.

I'm sorry to see the freeloaders got to you



Traso
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Ehhh, Howie's a nice guy.... new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#316647 - 11/01/13 12:24 AM


but he's being retarded. Most everyone's being retarded. (Except Arbie, no surprise.) I think there should be no income in the world - yet I understood everything Matt said, and further however he wants it is fine with me. Top-down sight, kids. Matt, you expressed everything clearly and eloquently.

@Jason: ahm, like that chick who sucks your dick, but would rather not? She should certainly do it for free. Or, she should come and suck my dick instead, I'll at least give her a reach around (and much more).



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Jason
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Re: Ehhh, Howie's a nice guy.... new [Re: Traso]
#316655 - 11/01/13 02:06 AM


ummm ... you need to re-read my post ... my post was about saying thank you and being grateful ... not about money.



Matt Ownby
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good point, I've revised my plan :) new [Re: SailorSat]
#316811 - 11/03/13 08:44 AM


Good point here.

And when it comes right down to it, I don't _want_ to close source anything. I want my stuff to be mirrored everywhere so that if I died tomorrow, my work would not die with me and others would pick up where I've left off.

So with that in mind, I've whipped up another blog post. Kind feedback appreciated

See blog post here

> I can see your point.
>
> Having "hacked together" multi-instance link-play (in MAME) for my wingwar cabinet, I
> got to some point where it fits _MY_ needs (my wingwar is fully functional now). I
> get asked by several people if I could also take a look at game X or game Y.
>
> Basically the same goes for Soft-15kHz - at first it was a pure "proof-of-concept".
> Then I got ambitious, and adapted more and more drivers and video cards (currently
> have over 200 different VGA cards in a huge box...). At some point, I lost that
> driving interest in the project, as it simply "works for me".
> (guess I should release the sources to the public anyway ^^)
>
> I don't know if being paid for it would do the trick though.
> (One can still send donations for Soft-15kHz)
>
> ---
>
> On the other hand, that's where the community comes into play.
> Most likely there are other developers in the community who would love to do a
> GUI/Frontend/whatever to make it fit their needs.
> Closing the source won't do the trick here.



Anonymous
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Re: Ehhh, Howie's a nice guy.... new [Re: Traso]
#316821 - 11/03/13 02:31 PM


> I think there should be no income in the world

If you can come up with a way where people are still willing to do the unpleasant things that need doing other than being forced to because they need the money, then your idea will work.



RATMNL
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Re: Ehhh, Howie's a nice guy.... new [Re: ]
#316880 - 11/04/13 12:05 PM


> > I think there should be no income in the world
>
> If you can come up with a way where people are still willing to do the unpleasant
> things that need doing other than being forced to because they need the money, then
> your idea will work.


And I actually don't necessarily think that wouldn't be possible...
People like having purpose, and a lot of unpleasant things 'could' be done by machines nowaday, for somethings labor is just cheaper... but we don't have income anyway, so that doesn't matter.



"Those voices in his head might not be real, but they have really good ideas!"



Anonymous
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Re: Ehhh, Howie's a nice guy.... new [Re: RATMNL]
#316881 - 11/04/13 12:23 PM


> and a lot of unpleasant things 'could' be done by
> machines nowaday,

I don't believe we have machines that can look after old people when they shit themselves.



RW-Column
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#317215 - 11/10/13 09:35 PM


My first post!

I have been on the emulation scene since its early days. I have watched Mame grow into what it is today, and I can honestly say that it is a great achievement.

There is much more that Mame can do (including MESS) which will encompass other emulation projects and better them. Information sharing is key, and with a new license Mame can only get better and help other developers improve and create.

I find it sad that Matt is not improving Daphne, as he is a talented programmer, and he thinks of others, especially his project for a disabled person, where his Raspi project shines.

I think Daphne has hit a technical brick wall, and if Mame was licensed under the GPL, Matt can continue expanding Daphne with the use of the cores Mame could offer, including all the LDP work gathered and technical experience.

The benefits outweigh the negatives for all concerned in the emulation community, and Daphne is a good example.



casm
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: RW-Column]
#317229 - 11/11/13 06:21 AM


> I think Daphne has hit a technical brick wall

Out of curiosity, in what way(s) do you see that being the case?

> and if Mame was licensed under the
> GPL, Matt can continue expanding Daphne with the use of the cores Mame could offer,

To be perfectly honest, I can't even find which licence DAPHNE has been released under - and if someone could clarify this for me, it would certainly be appreciated for the sake of my understanding.

Assuming that there is one (which I imagine there would be), it may be entirely incompatible with the MAME license, GPL, BSD, or other standard ones. Just because MAME's licence may change does not mean that it will automatically be compatible with those used by another project.

Further, there are FOSS cores out there that are available under the GPL and other non-MAME licences; these may be suitable for use in other projects where the MAME licence was not considered acceptable.

> including all the LDP work gathered and technical experience.

Which is documented in the source and elsewhere. There is nothing preventing anyone looking at those documents and re-implementing the ideas contained therein without reusing MAME code; this may be done under whatever licence they choose for their own project.

> The benefits outweigh the negatives for all concerned in the emulation community, and
> Daphne is a good example.

Possibly not - at least, possibly not in the specific case of DAPHNE. Some components within DAPHNE may not make it possible to open-source the project; I'm specifically thinking of anything related to decryption of the Digital Leisure DVDs. However, I'll let Matt speak to that one as I am by no means qualified to make a judgement regarding it.

Matt did touch on this (albeit tangentally) in a recent blog post of his, which was also referenced earlier in this thread. I'd recommend giving it a look.



Matt Ownby
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: RW-Column]
#317375 - 11/14/13 08:26 PM


> I think Daphne has hit a technical brick wall, and if Mame was licensed under the
> GPL, Matt can continue expanding Daphne with the use of the cores Mame could offer,
> including all the LDP work gathered and technical experience.

Not necessarily a technical brick wall, more like a legal brick wall.



RW-Column
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matt Ownby]
#317521 - 11/19/13 12:48 AM


Excuse me for sounding impertinent, but wasn't one of the main problems for supporting American Laserdisc titles was the lack of suitable 68K cores that was compatible with Daphne licensing?

Thus the inherent benefit of MAME under GPL.



Matty_
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: RW-Column]
#317523 - 11/19/13 01:31 AM


> Excuse me for sounding impertinent, but wasn't one of the main problems for
> supporting American Laserdisc titles was the lack of suitable 68K cores that was
> compatible with Daphne licensing?
>
> Thus the inherent benefit of MAME under GPL.

You are an idiot. "Compatible with Daphne licensing" is a legal issue, not a technical one.



casm
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matty_]
#317546 - 11/19/13 08:38 PM


> > Excuse me for sounding impertinent, but wasn't one of the main problems for
> > supporting American Laserdisc titles was the lack of suitable 68K cores that was
> > compatible with Daphne licensing?
> >
> > Thus the inherent benefit of MAME under GPL.
>
> You are an idiot. "Compatible with Daphne licensing" is a legal issue, not a
> technical one.

Not to mention that there are other non-MAME 68K cores out there that could be used, or that Matt has - repeatedly - publically stated that DAPHNE development has been back-burnered in favour of getting DEXTER out the door.

I'm really not understanding why every arcade emulator under the sun is apparently the nail that something in the MAME codebase is the magic hammer for.



RW-Column
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Re: My take on the MAME licensing controversy (from Daphne author) new [Re: Matty_]
#317555 - 11/20/13 03:08 AM


That is kind of a harsh reply. Obviously I have unintentionally hit a nerve.


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