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Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
#313703 - 08/31/13 09:06 PM
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They just released a remastered version and the video is now 720p and it's on Steam. What do the purists think? To give it the new aspect ratio, did they go horizontal plus or vertical minus?
http://store.steampowered.com/app/227380/
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: mike20599]
#313710 - 08/31/13 11:00 PM
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That's a blasphemy in my opinion. At least both Dragon's Lair and Space Ace have proper HD resolution versions at 4:3 in PC DVD form. But Dragon's Lair 2 HD exists just in Blu-ray form and I don't know if it has proper 4:3 screen proportion (Dragon's Lair in Blu-ray is just 16:9 crap).
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| Quantum Leaper |
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Ramirez]
#313814 - 09/02/13 09:29 AM
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> That's a blasphemy in my opinion. At least both Dragon's Lair and Space Ace have
> proper HD resolution versions at 4:3 in PC DVD form. But Dragon's Lair 2 HD exists
> just in Blu-ray form and I don't know if it has proper 4:3 screen proportion
> (Dragon's Lair in Blu-ray is just 16:9 crap).
The question is did the master it from the Film source or the Laser disc source, thats the question. If it blasphemy if they used the Film instead of the Laserdisc, thats a matter of opinion.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Quantum Leaper]
#313831 - 09/02/13 01:35 PM
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> > That's a blasphemy in my opinion. At least both Dragon's Lair and Space Ace have
> > proper HD resolution versions at 4:3 in PC DVD form. But Dragon's Lair 2 HD exists
> > just in Blu-ray form and I don't know if it has proper 4:3 screen proportion
> > (Dragon's Lair in Blu-ray is just 16:9 crap).
>
> The question is did the master it from the Film source or the Laser disc source,
> thats the question. If it blasphemy if they used the Film instead of the Laserdisc,
> thats a matter of opinion.
NOOOOO!!!!!! The blasphemy, in my opinion (like I already said before), is the change in aspect ratio. The original question was about aspect ratio, not about the film source.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Ramirez]
#313833 - 09/02/13 02:27 PM
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> NOOOOO!!!!!! The blasphemy, in my opinion (like I already said before), is the change
> in aspect ratio. The original question was about aspect ratio, not about the film
> source.
I concur. I have not taken the time to do any picture comparisons but if they merely cropped out the top and bottom to make it widescreen (and let's be honest, back when DL and SA were made, nobody was doing widescreen for games or home viewing) then they just screwed up big time.
At first I was pretty happy that Digital Leisure was taking an active role in preserving a pretty groundbreaking series of games but after seeing how they are merely cranking out different (not better) versions fairly regularly, they remind me of the Hendrix family reissuing the Jimi Hendrix music every couple of years with a new mix of the same old material over and over again.
Why couldn't they just continue to sell a fully remastered, all the extras possible, 4:3 aspect ratio set of DVDs? I'd purchase a new set of 20th anniversary DVD's before I'd buy this BluRay crap.
-Mc
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: McHale]
#313848 - 09/02/13 04:39 PM
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We don't talk about illegal downloads here.
Edited by redk9258 (09/02/13 05:02 PM)
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: mike20599]
#313849 - 09/02/13 05:13 PM
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: hmmmmmm]
#313863 - 09/02/13 09:38 PM
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> cropped compared to:
>
> http://youtu.be/HrKaPpp-Yjs
Yes, cropped. Here are the screenshots on their site (aka Digital Laziness):
http://www.digitalleisure.com/contents/screenshots/screenshots_dldownload.htm
Damn, I would re buy all three games in Blu-rays form if they made a definitive 4:3 capture directly from flick. Apparently the Blu-rays were captured from flick, but Dragon's Lair has no 4:3 version on the Blu-ray (just on HD DVD PC version) and Space Ace has a bunch o different versions on disc (neither is that great) instead of a definitive one. After these two I had no guts of buy Dragons Lair 2 on Blu-ray.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Quantum Leaper]
#313877 - 09/03/13 04:20 AM
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A 1080P@24 Hz 4:3 BluRay with all the games' footage sourced from the original films would be pretty much definitive. Which is probably why there isn't one. You don't realize how subtly DVD and videotape screws with the motion in films until you have a 24 Hz capable playback chain.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313916 - 09/03/13 03:51 PM
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> A 1080P@24 Hz 4:3 BluRay with all the games' footage sourced from the original films
> would be pretty much definitive. Which is probably why there isn't one. You don't
> realize how subtly DVD and videotape screws with the motion in films until you have a
> 24 Hz capable playback chain.
Where did I say anything about it being cropped? I do agree, it shouldn't be cropped, but there are many who think ONLY the Laserdisc version is the correct version. It not the first time that people have cropped an uncropped video source, I am thinking of Yellow Submarine, which I don't have. I do own one movie that the have a Open frame transfer of the movie on DVD, I do wish they hadn't done that but I still like the movie. I don't have the Blu-ray version of DL, but in the past I have owned the LaserDisc (original), CD and DVD versions, the only one I was disappointed with was the CD version. I even have Dragon Lair 3D somewhere but that really is a PC game more than an Animated game, I did get that cheap when a local computer store was going out a business, it was less than $5 bucks, if I remember. I do have the current ones that are one Steam, they were a gift. I haven't installed them yet, I need more space. So can't comment on the Steam (yet) or the Blu-ray version.
My comment was LD vs. Film source, in the past many Mame users have thought ONLY the Laserdisc version should ever be played, I just want the best UNcropped version, be it from the Film or LD, it doesn't bother me.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Quantum Leaper]
#313923 - 09/03/13 05:02 PM
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> My comment was LD vs. Film source, in the past many Mame users have thought ONLY the
> Laserdisc version should ever be played, I just want the best UNcropped version, be
> it from the Film or LD, it doesn't bother me.
I think there is merit in preserving the original arcade footage and the raw footage as well. However I doubt any extra detail in the steam version is original.
The 2006 version was a transfer of the negatives and the 2007 version was a cleaned up version of that. But at least the later was cropped.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Dragons-Lair-Blu-ray/434/
"My biggest gripe with the transfer is that it has been cropped from the original 1.33 aspect ratio. The framing isn't compromised too much, it appears the filmmakers left themselves some room for overscan on the old arcade monitors, but it is often too tight for comfort. The scene with the black knight and the electric floor panels is a good example: the knight's head in the overhead shot is slightly cropped off. As an OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) advocate, I would liked for Digital Leisure to have at least offered a 1.33 option. This knocks half a point off my score."
They appear to have butchered the ps3 version too
http://worthplaying.com/article/2011/7/20/reviews/82412/
"Unfortunately for the purists out there, Dragon's Lair on the PS3 does not display in the original aspect ratio. Unlike last fall's Wii release, which had both the original and cropped versions of the game present, the PS3 version of Dragon's Lair only contains the cropped 16:9 transfer. Because the original game video was 4:3, this means that part of the top and bottom was removed in order to fit the 16:9 aspect ratio."
So unless someone releases an un cropped transfer from the negatives in HD then your best source is the laserdisc.
Edited by smf (09/03/13 05:22 PM)
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#313924 - 09/03/13 05:19 PM
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I am wondering if the difference in frame rate between the original film source and the NTSC laser disc has any affect on game play? Surely those added pull down frames would make a difference in game play timing meaning you could not use the original film footage with an emulator written for the arcade.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: uVSthem]
#313925 - 09/03/13 05:25 PM
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> I am wondering if the difference in frame rate between the original film source and
> the NTSC laser disc has any affect on game play? Surely those added pull down frames
> would make a difference in game play timing meaning you could not use the original
> film footage with an emulator written for the arcade.
Knowing it was only ever going to be watched on a laser disc they may have produced the film to run at 30fps, movies don't have to run a 24fps. That doesn't mean they did of course.
If you were going to use original film footage then you'd have to play it at 24fps or convert it to 30fps first.
Edited by smf (09/03/13 05:27 PM)
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#313926 - 09/03/13 06:01 PM
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Since this subject came up again any word on when we might see this and other LD games added to MAME?
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313931 - 09/03/13 06:23 PM
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> Since this subject came up again any word on when we might see this and other LD
> games added to MAME?
As long as this is commercially sold, it won't be in MAME. As disappointing as that is, I think it's the right decision and support it fully. Also, since it is easily and cheaply available to purchase, I don't see it as too much of an issue.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: McHale]
#313935 - 09/03/13 06:32 PM
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I don't know if that is the reason or whether we're just too plain lazy.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: McHale]
#313938 - 09/03/13 06:37 PM
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So why can we play it using Daphne? I know you have to have a copy of the DVD for it to check can't MAME do something of the same?
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313939 - 09/03/13 07:03 PM
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> So why can we play it using Daphne? I know you have to have a copy of the DVD for it
> to check can't MAME do something of the same?
Why not MESS? 
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313940 - 09/03/13 07:12 PM
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> So why can we play it using Daphne? I know you have to have a copy of the DVD for it
> to check can't MAME do something of the same?
Why should we? Beside it's pointless when the source is available.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#313941 - 09/03/13 07:16 PM
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So anything sold by digital leisure will never be added to MAME? 
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313944 - 09/03/13 08:25 PM
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> So why can we play it using Daphne? I know you have to have a copy of the DVD for it
> to check can't MAME do something of the same?
This may be spreading FUD but the last time I investigated this, this check in Daphne was done by a closed-source Windows library provided by Digital Leisure. So, no, MAME _can't_ do things the way Daphne does. Besides, MAME's goal is to use laserdisc rips in CHD format, which Digital Leisure likely won't understand, support or license.
- Stiletto
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#313946 - 09/03/13 09:12 PM
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> So unless someone releases an un cropped transfer from the negatives in HD then your
> best source is the laserdisc.
Dragon's Lair (and Space Ace) has a DVD version for PC, in HD and uncropped that has probably the best image. But I don't think Digital Leisure is selling it anymore.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Stiletto]
#313948 - 09/03/13 09:56 PM
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> > So why can we play it using Daphne? I know you have to have a copy of the DVD for
> it
> > to check can't MAME do something of the same?
>
> This may be spreading FUD but the last time I investigated this, this check in Daphne
> was done by a closed-source Windows library provided by Digital Leisure. So, no, MAME
> _can't_ do things the way Daphne does. Besides, MAME's goal is to use laserdisc rips
> in CHD format, which Digital Leisure likely won't understand, support or license.
Huh. I thought Daphne used to be GPL, which would obviously prevent that, but it appears to be entirely closed source now. I wish him a lot of luck doing a Linux program that's binary-only.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#313949 - 09/03/13 09:58 PM
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> I don't know if that is the reason or whether we're just too plain lazy.
No, the "it's still actively on sale" is definitely a major factor with the Digital Leisure games.
We might see some other LDs start showing up later this year though.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: McHale]
#313952 - 09/03/13 10:45 PM
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> I concur. I have not taken the time to do any picture comparisons but if they merely
> cropped out the top and bottom to make it widescreen (and let's be honest, back when
> DL and SA were made, nobody was doing widescreen for games or home viewing) then they
> just screwed up big time.
It could have been worse, they could have done that weird "stretch the sides" effect that basic cable channels seem to be so fond of. BBC America did that recently to the 1996 Doctor Who TV movie, watching it was almost literally giving me a headache.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313956 - 09/03/13 11:49 PM
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> No, the "it's still actively on sale" is definitely a major factor with the Digital
> Leisure games.
Well if that's the case why are namco games in MAME like pac-man, galaga, etc... These are still sold all over like on PS3 and XBox Live.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313958 - 09/04/13 12:39 AM
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> Well if that's the case why are namco games in MAME like pac-man, galaga, etc...
> These are still sold all over like on PS3 and XBox Live.
They were emulated by MAME before they were available commercially, however the Williams games (defender etc) were commercially available before MAME came along.
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| B2K24 |
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: joey35car]
#313959 - 09/04/13 12:41 AM
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My understanding of it is Matt Ownby (Daphne Creator) had to jump through all sorts of legal hoops to even make his site/releases possible and it wouldn't make sense too me for MAMEdev to mimic that same behavior.
AFAIC Daphne is more of a movie player than an emulator anyway, even though on occasion those games can be fun to play as well.
I could very well be wrong, but that's how I currently understand it.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Ramirez]
#313960 - 09/04/13 12:41 AM
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> Dragon's Lair (and Space Ace) has a DVD version for PC, in HD and uncropped that has
> probably the best image. But I don't think Digital Leisure is selling it anymore.
AFAIK that was a transfer from the laserdisc.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313961 - 09/04/13 12:56 AM
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Just wondering Mr B, are will still waiting for the Daphne guys to rip the discs? (Yes I'm holding my breath) From what I understood from conversations before with you is that the ripping was holding things up (for MAME). Has there been any progress?
Is Aaron the only one that can, for lack of a better word, 'encode' the data to the rip. I think he used a program called Direct Show, or something similar. Are there drivers that are complete that just await the rip?
This is not pertaining to the Digital Seizure stuff, I know those are off limits (per say)
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Antny]
#314055 - 09/04/13 10:44 PM
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> Just wondering Mr B, are will still waiting for the Daphne guys to rip the discs?
> (Yes I'm holding my breath) From what I understood from conversations before with you
> is that the ripping was holding things up (for MAME). Has there been any progress?
I'm honestly fuzzy on that myself. I *think* the Daphne guys are the hold-up as opposed to Aaron or anyone on MAMEdev, but maybe Aaron will see this and clarify.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: DMala]
#314057 - 09/04/13 11:06 PM
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> > I concur. I have not taken the time to do any picture comparisons but if they
> merely
> > cropped out the top and bottom to make it widescreen (and let's be honest, back
> when
> > DL and SA were made, nobody was doing widescreen for games or home viewing) then
> they
> > just screwed up big time.
>
> It could have been worse, they could have done that weird "stretch the sides" effect
> that basic cable channels seem to be so fond of. BBC America did that recently to the
> 1996 Doctor Who TV movie, watching it was almost literally giving me a headache.
Oh good, I'm not all that disappointed now that my DVR failed to record it, marking the second time I failed to watch the 1996 Doctor Who movie when it aired.
I wonder what video signal I would have got on my 4:3 TV... "stretch the sides", then cut off the sides?
- Stiletto
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#314060 - 09/04/13 11:35 PM
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I remember this also as it pertains to all Laser Disc games the way they want to dump them.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: Stiletto]
#314090 - 09/05/13 11:23 AM
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> I wonder what video signal I would have got on my 4:3 TV... "stretch the sides", then
> cut off the sides?
It might have letter boxed it with top and bottom black bars.
On a programme that mixes new widescreen content with 4:3 I can see why they would want to fill in the space either side. Often they do it with a blurred & distorted copy of the edges, just so you get a vague sense that it's the same colour. But if the entire programme is 4:3 then they should just broadcast it like that.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#315352 - 10/04/13 06:18 PM
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> Knowing it was only ever going to be watched on a laser disc they may have produced
> the film to run at 30fps, movies don't have to run a 24fps. That doesn't mean they
> did of course.
>
The film is 24fps; most of the animation is 12fps, with occasional camera and layer movement at 24fps.
The laserdisc is actually mastered at 24fps. It's normal 30fps (well, 60 fields/sec) NTSC, but the frame numbers encoded on the disc run at 24fps. This lets the player show any film frame as a still. Some Disney discs are encoded this way as well. (There's an error in the Dragon's Lair mastering, though, so the second half has some split stills, including the "heart" still at the end of the game.)
> > Dragon's Lair (and Space Ace) has a DVD version for PC, in HD and uncropped that
> has
> > probably the best image. But I don't think Digital Leisure is selling it anymore.
>
> AFAIK that was a transfer from the laserdisc.
The did indeed have full-frame HD releases of DL and SA up until a year or two ago:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110104235849/http://www.digitalleisure.com/contents/DVDRom_games.htm
(The DL demo files are archived, so you can see what you're missing... Note that there is a 5:4 version. I guess this is the true aspect ratio of the film itself. Also, I believe these versions do not have the cleanup / defect removal that done for later releases.)
I don't think there was ever a public release of DL2 in 4:3.
I'm surprised they didn't include the 4:3 on the Blu Ray release. There must be a lot of extra space on that disc...
Edited by WarrenO (10/04/13 06:19 PM)
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: WarrenO]
#315353 - 10/04/13 06:48 PM
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> (The DL demo files are archived, so you can see what you're missing... Note that
> there is a 5:4 version. I guess this is the true aspect ratio of the film itself.
The 5:4 version is cropped & the 4:3 has more detail. The widescreen version isn't archived so we can't tell if there was more detail on that.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#315387 - 10/05/13 05:27 PM
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> > (The DL demo files are archived, so you can see what you're missing... Note that
> > there is a 5:4 version. I guess this is the true aspect ratio of the film itself.
>
> The 5:4 version is cropped & the 4:3 has more detail. The widescreen version isn't
> archived so we can't tell if there was more detail on that.
I haven't looked at it in years, but I recall thinking that the 16x9 version had more detail and fewer artifacts. (Well, more detail except for the quarter of the image that's missing.) This makes sense, given the zooming and higher bitrate.
Prediction: 4K release for PS4 in 2014... 16x9 only.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: WarrenO]
#315395 - 10/05/13 09:16 PM
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>Prediction: 4K release for PS4 in 2014... 16x9 only.
I'm not sure the xbox one or ps4 is really geared up for 4k. We shall see.
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Re: Dragon's Lair + Space Ace remastered?
[Re: ]
#315457 - 10/07/13 06:57 PM
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> > Prediction: 4K release for PS4 in 2014... 16x9 only.
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> I'm not sure the xbox one or ps4 is really geared up for 4k. We shall see.
They're 4K ready the same way the 360/PS3 were 1080P ready - they'll play videos in that format all day long, but don't expect much that's actually being rendered on the GPU.
Which means they'll do 4K Dragon's Lair just fine.
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