John IV |
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IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
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Reged: 09/22/03
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Posts: 1969
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Reged: 07/22/05
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Posts: 6125
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Loc: Fort Worth, Tx
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Yes finally.
[Re: John IV]
#302527 - 01/14/13 07:20 AM
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302535 - 01/14/13 09:40 AM
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Yes,Yes, Yesssss!!
It's like Christmas all over again
this is the development that I have waited a very long time for.
2013 is going to be a great MameDev year!
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302546 - 01/14/13 11:52 AM
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302551 - 01/14/13 06:16 PM
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302556 - 01/14/13 08:35 PM
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So is the minimum requirement for MAME HLSL a card that supports Pixel Shader 3.0?
I'm currently using an ATI Radeon X600XT in my arcade cabinet and it supposedly only supports Pixel Shader 2.0
If I need 3.0, I'm going to have to switch over to my ATI Radeon HD 4550 card, which sadly doesn't look as good with interlaced resolutions.
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GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302559 - 01/14/13 10:36 PM
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Awesome 
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302644 - 01/16/13 12:37 AM
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Could this effect work in some of the pinball games that have the LED displays? (ex. Lights Camera Action, Class Of 1812)
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| CiroConsentino |
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Frontend freak!
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 6211
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Loc: Alien from Terra Prime... and Brazil
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302695 - 01/16/13 11:12 PM
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: CiroConsentino]
#302698 - 01/16/13 11:51 PM
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John, you able to show us Tempest or Star Wars?
Keen to have a peek at those ones in particular :P
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Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: zambr]
#302705 - 01/17/13 01:26 AM
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> John, you able to show us Tempest or Star Wars?
>
> Keen to have a peek at those ones in particular :P
So says the Just_Desserts / Moogle / whatever:
Quote:
No Tempest or Star Wars shots yet because for some reason some batches of vectors are drawn as connected. Not exactly sure why Asteroids does not also suffer from the same issue.
- Stiletto
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: CiroConsentino]
#302706 - 01/17/13 01:29 AM
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So what are the new features? Glowing?
Edited by joey35car (01/17/13 01:30 AM)
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Reged: 10/25/10
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: Stiletto]
#302707 - 01/17/13 02:08 AM
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> So says the Just_Desserts / Moogle / whatever:
Don't you read the SVN logs? It's [MooglyGuy] or Ryan Holtz
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: Stiletto]
#302712 - 01/17/13 03:08 AM
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Maybe a little better than stock.. But still doesnt look right. Especially the non linear progression in glow spread. (you can see it goes from light, to darker, to lighter...etc..)
It also does not seem to consider difference from voltage, nor the effect of time spent on drawing in the same area. For example, a reason why the bullet is 10x as bright as the asteroids, is probably because the game updates that spot much more often... thus leading to the phosphor to glow much brighter. As well as the fact that the longer an image isnt updated.. its constantly in a state of fading out.
Because typical CRTs cant glow as bright as a vector monitor, without rear voltage adjustment crank, one should think about dimming the rest of the objects in relative measure. For example... if the brightness difference between the bullet and the asteroid is about 10 shades... then when you put in on mame, you would have to draw standard white for the bullets, and tone down the other objects to a more gray tone.
In this respect, the game would at least be accurate to a degree, in shade differences. And then, the player could choose to crank his LCD backlight to Retina Burning levels (and or put in a few more super-bright LEDs to boot), and or crank CRT voltage up. But even without all that, it would still look better with accurate differential.
As for the statement about Connected Vectors...
As far as Ive seen & understood, all vector games draw in a continuous line.
The only reason why the player does not see this, is because it drops the voltage when the game tells it so.
On a broken or mis-adjusted color vector game, Ive seen every lined connected. From what Ive heard, you can crank a certain voltage dial, to see it for yourself. However, its certainly not good for the machine, to be cranked up to that level. It can end up burning the phosphor up.
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: B2K24]
#302715 - 01/17/13 03:34 AM
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> > So says the Just_Desserts / Moogle / whatever:
>
> Don't you read the SVN logs? It's [MooglyGuy] or Ryan Holtz
Don't you read forums? He also calls himself Harmony, Just Desserts and moogle-tech.
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> ...
Man, it's been a while since you've crapped up a thread with random criticism and pointing out obvious things. At least have the decency to critique when the progress has moved beyond a single WIP pic? Or even better, the "If you think it can be done better, then do it yourself" adage applies. Considering vector intensity is one of those things people often ask about, that is also difficult to emulate 100% perfectly if not impossible on a modern raster CRT/LCD, this is progress at least worth having something positive to say, which you haven't in any way.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Oh, xiaou2, never change.
Wait, you haven't.
He's thought of all this. Trust me. If it offends you, he can simply not put it in any public builds and we'll simply reply with your email each time someone revives the "Why doesn't MAME have AAE effects?" post.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: krick]
#302718 - 01/17/13 04:03 AM
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> So is the minimum requirement for MAME HLSL a card that supports Pixel Shader 3.0?
>
> I'm currently using an ATI Radeon X600XT in my arcade cabinet and it supposedly only
> supports Pixel Shader 2.0
>
> If I need 3.0, I'm going to have to switch over to my ATI Radeon HD 4550 card, which
> sadly doesn't look as good with interlaced resolutions.
A 4550 won't have enough juice to do much with HLSL anyway, so you might as well forego the effects if you want to keep a 15 kHz monitor.
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Ah, how easy it is to critique what we cannot actually do.
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#302727 - 01/17/13 05:36 AM
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Sup RB.
If Im not mistaken, Moogle used to be the #1 troll to anything that posted on mameworld, for Years. Doing irreparable damage, to would be contributors.
My OPINION,and Constructive Criticism, isnt a troll. I have nothing against the guy, nor am I verbally cutting him down, on some kind of personal level.
This is about technical data. You can take it personal all you want. Wont change a thing. There are many today, that think games are supposed to look like the mames jagged pixelated screenshots, on an SVGA or LCD display. Its quite sad really. The older CRT low dot pitch monitors, were before their time, or time of observant memory.
Supposedly, there was a guy who was getting an accurate vector drawing mode in mame... but he was shut down, because he didnt use the FX processor...
So please do tell me.. why is it that people think its better to use some phoney & highly inaccurate shader effect, rather than an actual attempt at semi realistic representation?
And.. as I so stated, its better than its been in some time. (At least with the earlier mames, the bullet in Asteriods was actually visible period..)
But being somewhat better, is far different from accurate. Some roads might never lead to the desired result. Especially when theres no good and accurate comparisons, and constructive criticisms. Merely the good-guess and fragile Egoism.
Its always frowned upon, when someone represents hardware inaccurately. (But yet, certain controllers are not able to be mapped accurately to real arcade controls to this date) And yet, a mere opinion on Vector output, ruffles panties...
It matters not, if I cant program more than C64 level basics. I can easily tell you that certain games are programmed poorly, and the end result, isnt worth playing.
It doesnt matter if Im a Painter. I can tell you when I see a painting, that looks bad. Whos colors are off. That isnt shaded well... etc.
Whether Im a sculptor or not, I just may be able to tell when a body part is out of proportion. Or when something was made in pairs or duplicated... and one isnt exacting.
If he takes my, or others words personally, then that is truly his problem. And its also his decision to release, withhold, and or improve, whatever he works on. Nobody can blame me for his, or anybodys, choices.
On the other hand, if I constantly attacked the man on a personal level of insult... then yes, I would be at least a little bit accountable for the blame.
Im not going to jump up and down raving over something that I dont feel is that good, especially from the initial shot posted...which besides the fact that the one asteroid is way too thick lined and bright... has a very odd issue with glow spread progression. Something that he may not have even realized?
In the same token, Im not telling the guy that he should just stop trying to be a programmer... and just walk off a high cliff.
Im just giving a combination of constructive feedback, and opinionated disappointment, in what I see.
Mame itself, wouldnt be as good as it is today, if it were not for some constructive criticisms, and resulting changes.
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#302728 - 01/17/13 06:13 AM
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> A 4550 won't have enough juice to do much with HLSL anyway, so you might as well
> forego the effects if you want to keep a 15 kHz monitor.
Will there be a non-HLSL fallback for vector games? I was under the impression that this would be the "new thing" for vectors.
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GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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You're assuming the effect as pictured has anything to do with how the effect will actually present itself out-of-the-box. It was deliberately set to "blown out" to make sure the effects were obvious (and because, frankly, the raster HLSL settings we've seen users trading often aren't terribly subtle). It doesn't default that way, and there will be plenty of settings to customize various aspects of the simulation. The existing raster HLSL processing can be adjusted to simulate specific bad components in specific brands of monitor if you know what you're doing. Attention to detail is not a problem with Moogly's work.
> But being somewhat better, is far different from accurate.
Which is exactly why he's doing a real glow and fade-off simulation based on the physical and electrical properties of the analog components, deflection amplifiers, and CRT instead of the bullshit Gaussian blur that most every other attempt to simulate vectors uses. It's a significantly higher level of detail than the CPU-based solution you appear to mourn.
Basically, you assumed he's taking shortcuts based on one still shot and your existing prejudices. You have now been comprehensively informed that you're wrong.
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: krick]
#302740 - 01/17/13 08:31 AM
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> > A 4550 won't have enough juice to do much with HLSL anyway, so you might as well
> > forego the effects if you want to keep a 15 kHz monitor.
>
>
> Will there be a non-HLSL fallback for vector games? I was under the impression that
> this would be the "new thing" for vectors.
Half of the current development happens on Unix/MacOSX and there is no HLSL there
So *of course* HLSL won't be a requisite to run the emulator
Just a nice additional option for those who have new video cards 
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#302750 - 01/17/13 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Basically, you assumed he's taking shortcuts based on one still shot and your existing prejudices. You have now been comprehensively informed that you're wrong.
Good to hear Im wrong.
And yes, I wasn't impressed with the snap.. and those are many of the reasons why.. and its also one of the reasons why I would never have guessed that it was an accurate simulation, rather than any others attempts.
My mourning, was of course in regards to thinking the one attempt at realistic simulation, was being scrapped in favor of something like AAE... which wasnt capable of displaying accurate vector looks... but people mass-raved over...
The new HLSL stuff, while maybe not spot on, is a good feature. A much better picture to be experienced, than typically outputted on modern displays.
I believe Vector output will be a lot more challenging to get to convincing replication. I will be surprised if it works well, but or course.. I wish him the Best of luck.
Id love to see someone take a picture of their vector game, and then take a picture of their mame display.. and have the two pictures pretty much match.
If only 3 color laser-line projectors were small and affordable... The Super-bright intensity thats so very needed. Crisp lines. And the same basic display principles.
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| John IV |
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IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
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Reged: 09/22/03
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Posts: 1969
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Loc: Washington, USA
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Do not look at exploding death star with remaining eye
[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Reged: 07/22/05
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Is this from the SVN right now?
[Re: John IV]
#302882 - 01/19/13 09:25 AM
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If so what is the settings on the HLSL you guys are using?
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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Re: Is this from the SVN right now?
[Re: Dullaron]
#302883 - 01/19/13 09:58 AM
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#302952 - 01/20/13 11:44 PM
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w00t w00t, almost falls off chair :P
WOW.
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| Dullaron |
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Diablo III - Dunard #1884
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Reged: 07/22/05
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Posts: 6125
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Loc: Fort Worth, Tx
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Re: Is this from the SVN right now?
[Re: etabeta]
#302959 - 01/21/13 03:59 AM
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> no. it's in progress.
Oh OK. Just checking.
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W11 Home 64-bit + Nobara OS / AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT / AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz / RAM 64 GB
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| John IV |
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IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
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Reged: 09/22/03
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Posts: 1969
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Loc: Washington, USA
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#303000 - 01/21/13 06:53 PM
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Note, the recent SVN check-ins are still preliminary and setting the framework, it's not quite ready to turn on yet per MG.
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#303004 - 01/21/13 07:22 PM
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Yeah I just compiled it to revision 20390 and didn't notice anything. 
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Reged: 10/25/10
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Posts: 2663
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: John IV]
#303008 - 01/21/13 08:51 PM
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> Note, the recent SVN check-ins are still preliminary and setting the framework, it's
> not quite ready to turn on yet per MG.
No problem at all. It's a pleasure to wait for such wonderful and beautiful work
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Re: Moogly WIP Magic. :)
[Re: B2K24]
#303016 - 01/21/13 11:01 PM
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> No problem at all. It's a pleasure to wait for such wonderful and beautiful work
Indeed it is. Thanks to all involved.
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Moogly WIP Magic. :)
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