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Japanese game name conformity in MAME
#300414 - 12/11/12 05:55 AM
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Hello all. First off I'd like to apologize if this is in the wrong forum but I wanted the opinion of MAME users before I pursue this.
While none of the Japanese game names in MAME are blatantly incorrect, there is a certain inconsistency among them. Considering MAME's purpose is accuracy and preservation, it seems relatively important (to me, at least) to have the titles accurate and uniform as well.
I mostly play mahjong games in MAME, so most of the title discrepancies I've come across are in those games, although I see it occasionally in some of the more accessible Japanese games. Some examples:
-Some games are incorrectly romanized (ex: 'Niyanpai' should be 'Nyanpai')
-Some titles do not match across sequels (ex: 'Idol Janshi Su-Chi-Pie 2' and 'Idol Janshi Suchie-Pai Special'; both should be 'Su-Chi-Pai')
-Some games have subtitles while others do not (ex: the ST-V Danchi de games; MAME lists them as 'Danchi de Hanafuda' and 'Danchi de Quiz Okusan Yontaku Desuyo!'; only Quiz is listed with its subtitle in MAME)
I understand this isn't a major issue that affects emulation at all, but I also think it's a quick and easy fix. I've been compiling a list of all the Japanese titles I find with minor errors in them to send to the MAME devs, but my question is A) Should I even bother them with this? and B) who in particular should I send it to?
I've also been considering compiling a list of all the Japanese games in their original language in Unicode (and perhaps translations for titles) for inclusion in mameinfo.dat or something similar, purely for reference. I'm working on all of this for my own personal MAME setup, but I'd like to know if it's something the community would be interested in when completed.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300419 - 12/11/12 07:03 AM
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You are correct in the instances you pointed out, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to post what you feel are inaccuracies for independent verification? If our goal is to be insuring accuracy, IMO it would be best to post your list so that it could be peer reviewed.
I mean no offense, I've no idea if you're a native speaker. I'm just suggesting it because if you're like me and a non-native speaker it might be best to have more eyes on it as Japanese can be an intricate language.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: Rygar9]
#300421 - 12/11/12 07:24 AM
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Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that my own translations/transliterations are the final word; in fact, I would love to have an open conversation about this topic, with other Japanese speakers contributing opinions to decide on and finalize romanizations and such.
I'm just not sure where to go with this. I'm a long time MAME player, but I've never been in the community, so I wasn't sure where to post this to start the process of change. If these forums are a good place for an independent review then I will gladly post my (admittedly preliminary) list soon. Otherwise, some direction on where to go would be appreciated. 
FWIW, I'm not a native speaker, but I have been studying for over a decade now. I have two JLPT certifications and a passion for the language, which I find fascinating. I'm not a programmer and I can't afford PCBs, so I figure this is the best way I can help with the MAME project.
EDIT: I cleaned up what I have so far in my list and posted it here:
http://hastebin.com/raw/qopayagipa
Edited by wapomatic (12/11/12 11:20 AM)
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300439 - 12/11/12 06:28 PM
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Yeah, peer review is a good idea on this stuff, because I've noticed that if you ask 2 people for a Japanese translation you'll get at least 7 answers.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300452 - 12/11/12 11:07 PM
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Really good initiative, wapomatic. I've noticed some of those incongruences some time ago and reading your notes I totally agree with you. Studying Japanese for 2 years, that subject come again to my attention since I read about some mistranslations on UnMAMEd Games site, and considering one of the MAME guidelines is the accuracy, I think that attitude is pretty valid.
I don't have any certifications yet but I can help if is needed.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300457 - 12/12/12 01:11 AM
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> Hello all. First off I'd like to apologize if this is in the wrong forum but I wanted
> the opinion of MAME users before I pursue this.
>
> While none of the Japanese game names in MAME are blatantly incorrect, there is a
> certain inconsistency among them. Considering MAME's purpose is accuracy and
> preservation, it seems relatively important (to me, at least) to have the titles
> accurate and uniform as well.
>
> I mostly play mahjong games in MAME, so most of the title discrepancies I've come
> across are in those games, although I see it occasionally in some of the more
> accessible Japanese games. Some examples:
>
> -Some games are incorrectly romanized (ex: 'Niyanpai' should be 'Nyanpai')
>
> -Some titles do not match across sequels (ex: 'Idol Janshi Su-Chi-Pie 2' and 'Idol
> Janshi Suchie-Pai Special'; both should be 'Su-Chi-Pai')
>
> -Some games have subtitles while others do not (ex: the ST-V Danchi de games; MAME
> lists them as 'Danchi de Hanafuda' and 'Danchi de Quiz Okusan Yontaku Desuyo!'; only
> Quiz is listed with its subtitle in MAME)
>
> I understand this isn't a major issue that affects emulation at all, but I also think
> it's a quick and easy fix. I've been compiling a list of all the Japanese titles I
> find with minor errors in them to send to the MAME devs, but my question is A) Should
> I even bother them with this? and B) who in particular should I send it to?
>
Fantastic idea d00d as MAME is my only reference
> I've also been considering compiling a list of all the Japanese games in their
> original language in Unicode (and perhaps translations for titles) for inclusion in
> mameinfo.dat or something similar, purely for reference. I'm working on all of this
> for my own personal MAME setup, but I'd like to know if it's something the community
> would be interested in when completed.
Already done for the most part - check out some of the language packs in unicode supported builds. I use MAME Plus.
Cheers,
Ralph.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: R. Belmont]
#300460 - 12/12/12 02:56 AM
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Yeah, such is the inherent nature of Japanese language. It can be pretty vague in comparison to wordy English and there is plenty of room for error when it comes to colloquial things like games (slang especially).
That being said though, with things like titles and short snippets of phrases like subtitles it's generally pretty simple to arrive at a solid translation. Like I said, I haven't seen any MAME titles that are grossly mis-translated. The issues aren't really the meanings but more the standards for romanizing the Japanese text, which can be agreed upon and applied uniformly.
I definitely agree with peer review. I am continuing to work on the list and will post a version 1 for examination and discussion once its ready.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: CptGuapo]
#300461 - 12/12/12 03:03 AM
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Thanks! Those mistranslations are pretty wacky, but I can totally understand how someone who doesn't have a grasp on the language can make such mistakes.
I am continuing to work on the list and I'll post a version 1 in the coming days. Please feel free to review it then and offer suggestions. Hopefully we can get more Japanese speakers to take a look as well and get the titles updated soon.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: R. Belmont]
#300462 - 12/12/12 03:18 AM
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> Yeah, peer review is a good idea on this stuff, because I've noticed that if you ask
> 2 people for a Japanese translation you'll get at least 7 answers.
Hey, I'm far more reliable when I'm not blind drunk after several hours of serious nightclubbing with a group of people considerably younger than me 
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300467 - 12/12/12 04:52 AM
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Sounds good, I agree with alot of the things you're indicating in the document, though I need to go back and launch the games to read the Japanese.
This is a fairly simple task, if this progresses and an agreement is reached on the translations, rather than bother Mamedev with the implementation, I could just make the changes and submit a diff?
I can't really do much to contribute on the emulation side, but something like this is definitely within my skills as a entry level software engineer.
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| DMala |
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300469 - 12/12/12 05:36 AM
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> Thanks! Those mistranslations are pretty wacky, but I can totally understand how
> someone who doesn't have a grasp on the language can make such mistakes.
I guess "All your base are belong to us" goes both ways. 
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: Rygar9]
#300470 - 12/12/12 06:14 AM
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> Sounds good, I agree with alot of the things you're indicating in the document,
> though I need to go back and launch the games to read the Japanese.
>
> This is a fairly simple task, if this progresses and an agreement is reached on the
> translations, rather than bother Mamedev with the implementation, I could just make
> the changes and submit a diff?
Submission of this patch through the submission form at http://www.mamedev.org would be the best option.
You could also create a "trivial" bug and upload your patch on http://www.mametesters.org
(er, when they're back up)
That said, I'll go contact the usual suspects to comment on this thread.
- Stiletto
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You can post them to the Testers as trivial reports as Stiletto says.
btw I'm maintaining the Japanese game name list file which is used for various purposes (front ends, data base etc.)
The file contains: MAME's rom name, full Japanese description, Japanese reading in hiragana (with some suffix for sorting)
You can use it for any purpose.
Please be noticed that this list is made for Japanese usage.
Regarding the descriptions, the Japanese name comes first and the "alternative" description for the "foreign" market is put down with it. Also in sorting, this ignores MAME's problematic master and clone sets hierarchy.
Fuji.
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Fujix
MAME E2J
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: Fujix]
#300472 - 12/12/12 06:51 AM
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Ah, I forgot to tell something.
This list describes Russian games in Cyrillic chars, Korean games in Koreans and Chinese ones in Chinese.
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Fujix
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300479 - 12/12/12 08:49 AM
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> EDIT: I cleaned up what I have so far in my list and posted it here:
> http://hastebin.com/raw/qopayagipa
This looks good by me. As one of the resident weeaboos on the team I've done some romanization cleanups here and there but I just don't have the free time to go through thousands of titles and get everything.
Our general policy is basically: use waapuro-style Hepburn (しょう = shou, etc.) unless the title screen has roomaji saying otherwise (e.g. some of the shougi games call themselves "Syougi") and backport gairaigo into their original spellings. There hasn't been any standardization of things like suffixes and word spacing other than personal preference. (A lot of our titles come in from Japanese contributors who are often more apt to combine words and particles or use kunrei-style romanization.)
I would say keep going like you're going with the recommended titles and start submitting diffs as suggested by Stiletto. In the unclear cases I would lean towards spelling out numbers and including subtitles.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300480 - 12/12/12 11:47 AM
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Have already talked with some mamedevs about a convention when the svn got merged but nobody seemed to care. There is zero consistency through the whole project, be it on naming, or even on much more crucial aspects such as rational dump validation method. Absolutely nobody could tell how much good/bad/unconfirmed dumps are scattered through the whole database.
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#300483 - 12/12/12 01:58 PM
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> Hello all. First off I'd like to apologize if this is in the wrong forum but I wanted
> the opinion of MAME users before I pursue this.
>
> While none of the Japanese game names in MAME are blatantly incorrect, there is a
> certain inconsistency among them. Considering MAME's purpose is accuracy and
> preservation, it seems relatively important (to me, at least) to have the titles
> accurate and uniform as well.
>
> I mostly play mahjong games in MAME, so most of the title discrepancies I've come
> across are in those games, although I see it occasionally in some of the more
> accessible Japanese games. Some examples:
>
> -Some games are incorrectly romanized (ex: 'Niyanpai' should be 'Nyanpai')
>
> -Some titles do not match across sequels (ex: 'Idol Janshi Su-Chi-Pie 2' and 'Idol
> Janshi Suchie-Pai Special'; both should be 'Su-Chi-Pai')
>
> -Some games have subtitles while others do not (ex: the ST-V Danchi de games; MAME
> lists them as 'Danchi de Hanafuda' and 'Danchi de Quiz Okusan Yontaku Desuyo!'; only
> Quiz is listed with its subtitle in MAME)
>
> I understand this isn't a major issue that affects emulation at all, but I also think
> it's a quick and easy fix. I've been compiling a list of all the Japanese titles I
> find with minor errors in them to send to the MAME devs, but my question is A) Should
> I even bother them with this? and B) who in particular should I send it to?
>
> I've also been considering compiling a list of all the Japanese games in their
> original language in Unicode (and perhaps translations for titles) for inclusion in
> mameinfo.dat or something similar, purely for reference. I'm working on all of this
> for my own personal MAME setup, but I'd like to know if it's something the community
> would be interested in when completed.
Don't forget Navarone in warpwarp.c - while the title was corrected (L -> R) a few years ago, the ROMs themselves are still called navalone.* dating back almost 13 years when it was first added!
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Well, I've taken the replies in this thread as suggestions and I've come up with a version 1 of suggested guidelines and changes to current ROM names.
It's certainly not complete. This first version was compiled by just eyeballing the .147 list and screenshotting title screens of anything that looked like it might be a bit off. I'm sure there are more games to update, but hopefully this list is a good start.
I've posted the guidelines I've written here (http://hastebin.com/hiwuqiraqu.vhdl), attached the Excel spreadsheet I've been using and posted an HTML version of the spreadsheet here: http://route-20.com/~ryo/mame_jp_names.html
I just realized the fields aren't marked. The first field is the ROM set, second is the current name, third is my recommended change, and the last is my reasoning behind the changes (the number in parentheses refer to the Guidelines I wrote).
Once some of the other Japanese familiar members will post their opinions and if everything looks good, I'll submit this to mamedev.org as suggested by Stiletto.
Edited by wapomatic (12/20/12 06:38 AM)
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Re: Japanese game name conformity in MAME
[Re: wapomatic]
#301045 - 12/20/12 01:59 PM
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