We should make the first Tuesday of September Hoarder Day so on the first Monday we celebrate all the work and prosperity America has done and then the next day we celebrate how somehow only 1 person gets to enjoy it.
> Thanks for posting a link to another flamebait hoarding story. Made my day.
The guy is known hoarder? I would assume he is, since people are already burning bridges after just 20 posts, and there are some experienced members defending his right to hoard. What a shame...
I tried to see the pictures, but you have to be a member to view it, and I always get a "Failed to Connect" when I'm trying to register there... do they hoard pictures too?
He takes cabs to California Extreme so some members there would cheer for him if he announced that he found the fountain of youth but was not sharing the directions. "Good for you" they would say. "We're genuinely happy for you". I can't make a lick of sense out of it either. He has given a few things to mamedevs before but won't share most of it like um, Marble Madness 2 (both the joystick and trackball versions) and a shitload of other arcade prototypes.
That's terrible to see rare systems like this at the hands of the arcade collector. He runs the site called safestuff where he hoards a ton of rare Atari games not in MAME such as Marble Madness 2 ( a game that no one has ever played except the Atari guys, the Atari horder, or even the people at CAX). Oh well, I guess this is something we'll have to live for a while.
> That's terrible to see rare systems like this at the hands of the arcade collector. > He runs the site called safestuff where he hoards a ton of rare Atari games not in > MAME such as Marble Madness 2 ( a game that no one has ever played except the Atari > guys, the Atari horder, or even the people at CAX). Oh well, I guess this is > something we'll have to live for a while.
I went to CAX 10 years ago and played Marble Man for about ten seconds before getting bored and moving on. You're not missing much, it was cancelled for a good reason.
safestuff has helped with some rare dumps. The problem with Marble Man is that he had to promise that he wouldn't dump the roms before he could get the board. Due to the attacks he's had since, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd never allow anyone to dump anything he has. Aaron did a lot of work to get him on board, which you've all destroyed with your outrage.
> I went to CAX 10 years ago and played Marble Man for about ten seconds before getting > bored and moving on.
Well the point is not really if you or me find it 'fun to play', it's about preserving it before it's lost forever.
That said it certainly is no point in people raging, the guy owns it/them, and what you described with Aaron opening a dialogue is really the only path with a possibly positive outcome.
Would somebody be so kind as to post the attached photos here for the benefit of those without a forum account? I can't seem to register at the moment...
> > http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=248437 > > > > Now in the hands of Mr. AtariGames.com. > > > > - Stiletto > > Would somebody be so kind as to post the attached photos here for the benefit of > those without a forum account? I can't seem to register at the moment...
> > That's terrible to see rare systems like this at the hands of the arcade collector. > > He runs the site called safestuff where he hoards a ton of rare Atari games not in > > MAME such as Marble Madness 2 ( a game that no one has ever played except the Atari > > guys, the Atari horder, or even the people at CAX). Oh well, I guess this is > > something we'll have to live for a while. > > I went to CAX 10 years ago and played Marble Man for about ten seconds before getting > bored and moving on. You're not missing much, it was cancelled for a good reason. > > safestuff has helped with some rare dumps. The problem with Marble Man is that he had > to promise that he wouldn't dump the roms before he could get the board. Due to the > attacks he's had since, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd never allow anyone to dump > anything he has. Aaron did a lot of work to get him on board, which you've all > destroyed with your outrage.
A promise is a wonderful thing, but are we talking a promise or a legally binding contract?
Because he's had some of those protos for years and if he isn't careful they will die on him and thus be lost forever. It's time to dump em.
> > > That's terrible to see rare systems like this at the hands of the arcade > collector. > > > He runs the site called safestuff where he hoards a ton of rare Atari games not > in > > > MAME such as Marble Madness 2 ( a game that no one has ever played except the > Atari > > > guys, the Atari horder, or even the people at CAX). Oh well, I guess this is > > > something we'll have to live for a while. > > > > I went to CAX 10 years ago and played Marble Man for about ten seconds before > getting > > bored and moving on. You're not missing much, it was cancelled for a good reason. > > > > safestuff has helped with some rare dumps. The problem with Marble Man is that he > had > > to promise that he wouldn't dump the roms before he could get the board. Due to the > > attacks he's had since, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd never allow anyone to dump > > anything he has. Aaron did a lot of work to get him on board, which you've all > > destroyed with your outrage. > > A promise is a wonderful thing, but are we talking a promise or a legally binding > contract? > > Because he's had some of those protos for years and if he isn't careful they will die > on him and thus be lost forever. It's time to dump em.
In my opinion, it would be stupid to think that any of these "unshared" items have not been preserved, copied, duplicated or dumped and live in multiple places, safe boxes and/or data centers under his control. Just because that person hasn't released them doesn't mean they are lost forever. I would even assume that arrangements have been made in case of accident/death to pass on the information. I agree, though, public outrage and constant requests to share do nothing but degrade the situation.
Emulation interests many different people yet I get the feeling I myself am in a minority of people just being thankful for what has been provided over the years to the MAME project. MAME is more than getting games you all would like to play - it's a living preservation document.
> That's terrible to see rare systems like this at the hands of the arcade collector. > He runs the site called safestuff where he hoards a ton of rare Atari games not in > MAME such as Marble Madness 2 ( a game that no one has ever played except the Atari > guys, the Atari horder, or even the people at CAX). Oh well, I guess this is > something we'll have to live for a while.
Where do you think some of the Atari prototypes already in MAME came from?
All this bitching about sodding Marble Man has only served to lessen the chance of other, arguably more interesting prototypes ending up in MAME.
And for the record, the Cinematronics hoard is already backed up and in MAME friendly hands. So relax.
I can't believe you bought into that promise story in the first place, let alone let it sail you in this bottled up hope direction for 10 years. That might have worked when it came from Aaron in 2002 but not now. I can see slightly confused from the bits we've gotten but brainwashed is different. Maybe one day he will change his mind but it's not going to change because of what an angry nerds said on a messageboard (unless he decides to use that as an excuse like saying an exemployee gives a shit if people play it on their computer but not at CAX) and he's already heard it all a million times before anyway and for good reason. Because uh, he's a fucking hoarder.
> I can't believe you bought into that promise story in the first place, let alone let > it sail you in this bottled up hope direction for 10 years. That might have worked > when it came from Aaron in 2002 but not now. I can see slightly confused from the > bits we've gotten but brainwashed is different.
Just because you don't believe something that orders do, doesn't make them brainwashed. Your anger is clouding your judgement.
It's not even a unique thing, I know of two other cases where prototype roms have been dumped and are only in the hands of the owners and emulation devs but it's not publicly discussed who or what because of the outrage it would cause.
I don't see why you think we have a right to them.
> > I can't believe you bought into that promise story in the first place, let alone > let > > it sail you in this bottled up hope direction for 10 years. That might have worked > > when it came from Aaron in 2002 but not now. I can see slightly confused from the > > bits we've gotten but brainwashed is different. > > Just because you don't believe something that orders do, doesn't make them > brainwashed. Your anger is clouding your judgement.
If the story about the exemployees is true then why isn't it the only game hoarded? If you read a few of his posts on klov you will see he has "fully embraced the lifestyle". It was just another thing to get people off his back, like the first price tag which he later said he made up because he didn't think anyone would be crazy enough to pay it so he made up a crazy number so they would give up and leave him alone.
> It's not even a unique thing, I know of two other cases where prototype roms have > been dumped and are only in the hands of the owners and emulation devs but it's not > publicly discussed who or what because of the outrage it would cause.
I don't understand what this has to do with the argument, whether it's a unique case or not.
> I don't see why you think we have a right to them.
I do think we have a right to them but that's not what I'm arguing about. What I'm arguing about is what type of a person does this crap. Getting a bunch of one of a kind cabs and dangling it in people's face when the mame option exists. Go read his posts, he goes around claiming to be an asshole and a dick. Proud of it. I could ask you the opposite, do you think he has a right to them? He should solely control who gets to play them and when because he lucked out on buying some pieces? It's part of our cultural heritage. Yes I think we have a right to them, obviously. Look what I've been doing for the past decade adding games to mame, are you really asking me this...
> safestuff has helped with some rare dumps. The problem with Marble Man is that he had > to promise that he wouldn't dump the roms before he could get the board. Due to the > attacks he's had since, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd never allow anyone to dump > anything he has. Aaron did a lot of work to get him on board, which you've all > destroyed with your outrage.
Yup. Aaron's done quite well in the past prying stuff out of him, but it's ridiculously unhelpful when people are screaming at him all the time claiming to be outraged on behalf of MAME. (Here's a tip: if your first name isn't "Miodrag", you are not allowed to be anything on behalf of MAME).
> Because he's had some of those protos for years and if he isn't careful they will die > on him and thus be lost forever. It's time to dump em.
They've all been dumped and multiple copies exist in multiple physical locations (the same is true of the data we're discussing here today, by the way). Scott isn't stupid.
That's a really retarded one liner. People should be able to state their opinion about hoarders without being wrongly accused of being the reason we don't have the games. Give me a fucking break.
> That's a really retarded one liner. People should be able to state their opinion > about hoarders without being wrongly accused of being the reason we don't have the > games. Give me a fucking break.
It's not a wrongful accusation. Having some twatrattle spend 7 pages on KLOV flaming Scott a week before CAX really doesn't help Aaron's seduction speech.
I shut up about it for over a decade (freaking decade) waiting for Aaron to convert Scott to our side. You think another one will do it? You think everyone on the web is going to stop because you still somehow think that after 11 years? You think you can tell people what to and not to write on the web?
> That's a really retarded one liner. People should be able to state their opinion > about hoarders without being wrongly accused of being the reason we don't have the > games. Give me a fucking break.
> I shut up about it for over a decade (freaking decade) waiting for Aaron to convert > Scott to our side. You think another one will do it? You think everyone on the web is > going to stop because you still somehow think that after 11 years? You think you can > tell people what to and not to write on the web?
I'll be round tomorrow to take your stuff, if you can leave the door unlocked it will save me time. Thanks
I'll tell you what, I'll leave the door open and you're welcome to take anything I haven't already made a digital image of and shared with you. After you leave empty handed maybe see a specialist about removing your brainwashing.
> > Because he's had some of those protos for years and if he isn't careful they will > die > > on him and thus be lost forever. It's time to dump em. > > They've all been dumped and multiple copies exist in multiple physical locations (the > same is true of the data we're discussing here today, by the way). Scott isn't > stupid.
Well that's even more ridiculous then. If they've been dumped already then any risk to his pcbs is over, they won't be damaged because they've already been dumped.
It makes no sense to hide them.
And with all due respect do the "multiple physical locations" number in the thousands? Because if they don't then it isn't backed up.
I know some mame devs don't like to hear this, but the rampant rom piracy associated with MAME does just as much to preserve these old games as the emulation of their systems do. Let's say the copyright police knock down MAME's door tomorrow, they cease the site, the source and arrest every single person that ever submitted a driver.
MAME still survives, and the games it preserved survives. Why? Because there are thousands upon thousands of compiled exes, and source copies lying on computers and servers around the world. So many copies have been downloaded not because these people are interested in preservation, but because they could play arcade games on their pc. It doesn't matter their reason, but the end result is that MAME is forever preserved. Likewise when a rom is supported by MAME it is instantly preserved. All the rom kiddiez dl it to their computer, making a source of near infinate backups.
So the rom collectors and such can get annoying, but they serve as a crucial part of the preservation system. Their reasons for wanting MM2 or similar titles into mame is a selfish one, but they do have a point. MAMEing a game is the best way to ensure that it doesn't get lost to time.
And in the guy's defense, he absolutely has the right to keep it to himself, the only problem is he doesn't. He dangles it above the surface of the water like bait for a fish and then pulls it back at the last second. If he wants a private collection and doesn't want to come off as a jerk, maybe he should actually keep it private.
> So many copies have been downloaded not because these > people are interested in preservation, but because they could play arcade games on > their pc.
> > So many copies have been downloaded not because these > > people are interested in preservation, but because they could play arcade games on > > their pc. > > ^Just to sign under this ^
Sounds like ultimate preservation to me.
It's like a virus transferred from the computer to the romz kiddie end result... A fully complete MAME archive that survives on Billions of computers across the globe.
When we are extinct and our lineage or some other species from some other planet is shuffling thru our ruins, maybe with enough luck they will be able to play MAME.
I say we just out right petition NASA to send a MAME archive on every outbound from here on out! FTW........
> > And with all due respect do the "multiple physical locations" number in the > thousands? Because if they don't then it isn't backed up. >
So to have something adequately backed up you believe it has to be in thousands of physical locations? Could you please tell me of a company that has thousands of physical location data backups in their data recovery / reduncancy / disaster recovery plan? What's that? None of them do? That is what I thought.
> And in the guy's defense, he absolutely has the right to keep it to himself, the only > problem is he doesn't. He dangles it above the surface of the water like bait for a > fish and then pulls it back at the last second. If he wants a private collection and > doesn't want to come off as a jerk, maybe he should actually keep it private.
Yes, the worst part is he rubbing it in everyone's face...
Hell, even if he plans to sell it latter, he probably wouldn't loose much by sharing the software, since everyone can easily find the roms for Stadium Events and it still sells for U$50,000.00.
It makes me remember Xacrow and Lost Odyssey (and some other prototypes) for Neo Geo.
The problem is that they probably think that the fun lies in seeing people desperate for these rare (maybe one of a kind) games.
I could make some jokes about how Freud would say that they were raised by their mothers and have very little dicks... but that wont make anyone feel any better and wouldn't be fun (and maybe offend someone)... so I wont.
But seeing by bright side, we have Mame/Mess, it's developers and contributors, doing such a wonderful and much appreciated work. Thank you, you are heroes.
> When we are extinct and our lineage or some other species from some other planet is > shuffling thru our ruins, maybe with enough luck they will be able to play MAME. > > I say we just out right petition NASA to send a MAME archive on every outbound from > here on out! FTW........
I think the squid shaped aliens will find space invaders offensive. :P
LN
"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
>When we are extinct and our lineage or some other species from some other planet is >shuffling thru our ruins, maybe with enough luck they will be able to play MAME.
Yeah but they won't be able to play Star Rider
Who knows, maybe we (as a species) will last long enough to see it emulated
Sweet !! Love that they used UCSD Pascal. (In spare time lately, I've been going back to my roots and doing some Pascal coding under CP/M on an Apple ][). And that Terak sure is a cute piece of kit as well. Some amazing prototypes. What a find !! Very happy to see this found and in safe hands.
If you have a problem with that, your problem rests with the original owner that gave the "incomplete" machine to Scott.
There are 2 complete cabinets. 1 completely original, one built around a 2nd original PCB. Cabinet custom built, artwork reproduced. Both PCB's required hunting down the original roms and repairs to the PCB.
Releasing the code would not satisfy anyone and he would have broken his word.
> If you have a problem with that, your problem rests with the original owner that gave > the "incomplete" machine to Scott.
Don't believe the hype.
> There are 2 complete cabinets. 1 completely original, one built around a 2nd original > PCB. Cabinet custom built, artwork reproduced. > Both PCB's required hunting down the original roms and repairs to the PCB.
I've read about the work involved.
> Releasing the code would not satisfy anyone
What?
> and he would have broken his word.
Don't believe the hype.
> So really, why bother.
Because it's the unreleased holy grail sequel to one of the most loved arcade games of all time.
> Sweet !! Love that they used UCSD Pascal. (In spare time lately, I've been going back > to my roots and doing some Pascal coding under CP/M on an Apple ][).
Pretty cool. That'd be "mess apple2p -sl3 videoterm -sl4 softcard", as you probably know ;-)
Having been around MAME and the various boards for well over a decade, I really don't know that the hate towards him is that justified anymore. Back in the day he definitely did some things that really came off as "neener neener, look what I have, uh uh, you can't have it" but it really doesn't seem like that anymore all things considered, and that everyone is just pissed that he doesn't feel automatically compelled to share everything like others do. I mean, it's great that we have so many people willing to do the work and time and money invested to give it to MAME which ultimately gives it to "everyone" and I wish a lot of people actually appreciated them more at times, but I think people have gotten spoiled by those efforts and assume that anyone else automatically has to be as generous.
Honestly these days I'm more interested in reading about the efforts made to emulate the game and perusing the source code than actually playing anything in MAME, I think I have the same 25 roms that I've had on here for about 9 years. The last 5 years have held a lot of things I've had interest in watching develop, without any interest in playing them (the main exception being the slew of Sega games after the encryption breakthrough which I ran and played a bunch of at the time for the novelty and "oh man, they finally did it!").
I guess all my rambling is saying is that the only thing I wish that safestuff did differently is that it would be nice if there was a way he could contribute to the emulation for some of his coveted (unique, one-off, proto and such) games in some way that wasn't going to automatically release everything to the wild and devalue his collection, either monetarily or uniqueness-wise, which I'm sure is his main concern aside from the other things always mentioned. Mainly because preserving the ROMs is only really one step of preserving the games in the MAME sense, and the documentation is the aspect I enjoy the most, and we've all seen how well emulation progresses on "randomly strewn dumps from some unknown unique system of some type with no documentation" games. Yeah, efforts can and will be made through hard work but it's arduous and some things may never be more than guesswork. I know he's done stuff here and there like that though, which is also good, and if people are just getting upset because he has some random prototype version of a game that already exists in mame and doesn't differ that significantly (and especially if he's actually providing tech info and pics on it if requested), and they just gotta catch em all, well. Pffft. I think that would involve a level of trust that he might not have on things leaking themselves, and honestly, if there was, say, a fully-functional-if-only-someone-had-the-roms marble madness 2 driver in mame, the moaning would probably increase a hundredfold because SOMEONE MUST HAVE THEM PLZZZZZZ.
Besides, yes, even if it does seem like everything he finds is disappearing into a black hole emulation-wise, it still exists which is more than could be said if it ended up in the trash or destroyed in some way. Someday he could potentially change his decision, and at the very least, we know a copy exists and where it is. Unless he's actually swooping in and getting into bidding battles with MAME-friendly people or otherwise snatching them out of their hands in some way (which yes, I think he may have done a few times back in the day?) we really shouldn't look at everything he gets as somehow stealing it from MAME. Sure, be jealous that he's a lucky bastard with a bunch of cool stuff. I've done that. Now if he is still (literally, not just by owning it) taunting people with his collection and I just haven't seen it, I take some of that back, or even if he's willingly holding back things that could genuinely help MAME for no reason other than he can* (and I do count "devaluing his collection" as a reason, even if it's a bad one), it's just that all I ever see lately is he posts some stuff he got and then EMURAGE.
(*For instance something like: Dev: I really need to find someone with the Rev A Tower of Ninjas so I can compare the data on the J2 chips, but it seems like they've all been converted to Rev B. Let me post on various forums asking about this. Safestuff: Hi MAME dev, I have Rev A right here in my garage! I actually found it in the middle of a grassy field one day when I was walking my dog. Dev: Oh, great! can you dump J2 and send it to me so I can compare it with the dump we have? Safestuff: No. Dev: Uh...ok. Well, can you at least tell me if- Safestuff: I just felt like pointing out that I owned one, that's all.)
If these conversations are happening on a regular basis and I don't know about them, then I guess I can understand the wrath.
> Well that's even more ridiculous then. If they've been dumped already then any risk > to his pcbs is over, they won't be damaged because they've already been dumped.
I'm not aware of any claim about damage to the pcb's. There is one and only one reason the roms haven't been made public & thats because he promised he wouldn't. He had to promise or he'd never have gotten the boards.
> And in the guy's defense, he absolutely has the right to keep it to himself, the only > problem is he doesn't. He dangles it above the surface of the water like bait for a > fish and then pulls it back at the last second. If he wants a private collection and > doesn't want to come off as a jerk, maybe he should actually keep it private.
He never dangled it. Ever since the rabid zealots found out he had it, he was constantly asked in an aggressive way to release it. Eventually to try and shut it up he pulled a ridiculously large figure out of his head, unfortunately this went above their heads and they started a fund raiser. He should have just ignored them, or at the very least set the asking price so high it would keep them busy for their entire lifetime trying to scrape the money together.
> A promise is a wonderful thing, but are we talking a promise or a legally binding > contract?
A promise is stronger than a contract, at least to some of us. Safestuff wouldn't get friends who let him have prototype arcade games if he didn't keep his promises.
> I'll tell you what, I'll leave the door open and you're welcome to take anything I > haven't already made a digital image of and shared with you. After you leave empty > handed maybe see a specialist about removing your brainwashing.
I was thinking about taking the tv and your car, good luck digitally imaging those.
> When we are extinct and our lineage or some other species from some other planet is > shuffling thru our ruins, maybe with enough luck they will be able to play MAME.
I wouldn't get your hopes up, that kind of event would put us back to the stone age pretty quickly. We've already seen advanced civilizations die out and their technology disappeared.
>>I went to CAX 10 years ago and played Marble Man for about ten seconds before getting >> bored and moving on. You're not missing much, it was cancelled for a good reason.
With this on-going stuff, I'd rather prefer Bouncer pcb being found (if ever possible) and emulated instead. Or any of the remaining DECO cassette titles being preserved and emulated.
>The problem with Marble Man is that he had to promise that he wouldn't dump the roms >before he could get the board.
I would like to read the name in case it was an ex-Atari employee that made that condition in case that is where the board (source) came from.
If it didn't happen along that line, I bring up the funny line from the late Peter Seller's Sidny Wang character (Murder by Death, 1976):
Is most stupid theory I ever heard! Peter Sellers as Inspector Sidney Wang in Murder by Death (1976)
You guys are evil. Sharing like that when you well aware that people like me simply have no way of obtaining any material to share with you... all of those ones look delicious, And yeah, I tried looking stuff up myself before. Usually ended up on some sort of partially private forum that also requires sharing or something...
> > Well that's even more ridiculous then. If they've been dumped already then any risk > > to his pcbs is over, they won't be damaged because they've already been dumped. > > I'm not aware of any claim about damage to the pcb's. There is one and only one > reason the roms haven't been made public & thats because he promised he wouldn't. He > had to promise or he'd never have gotten the boards. > > > And in the guy's defense, he absolutely has the right to keep it to himself, the > only > > problem is he doesn't. He dangles it above the surface of the water like bait for a > > fish and then pulls it back at the last second. If he wants a private collection > and > > doesn't want to come off as a jerk, maybe he should actually keep it private. > > He never dangled it. Ever since the rabid zealots found out he had it, he was > constantly asked in an aggressive way to release it. Eventually to try and shut it up > he pulled a ridiculously large figure out of his head, unfortunately this went above > their heads and they started a fund raiser. He should have just ignored them, or at > the very least set the asking price so high it would keep them busy for their entire > lifetime trying to scrape the money together.
And that would be me you are referring to there as a "rabid zealot" and you are completely wrong in your views of what happened. And no, I'm not going to open up this can of worms again.
> You guys are evil. Sharing like that when you well aware that people like me simply > have no way of obtaining any material to share with you... all of those ones look > delicious, And yeah, I tried looking stuff up myself before. Usually ended up on some > sort of partially private forum that also requires sharing or something...
That's a pretty lame excuse. In fact, this is probably the lamest bunch of excuses I have ever heard.
This lovely Terak system and the four boxes of floppies only had one bidder (IIRC), so it was probably picked up for $20 or something (wild guess, anyone have the URL for the original auction ?). Other rare and wanted items have been picked up for a lot less.
All you need to do is keep your eyes open at car boot sales, flea markets, charity stores, eBay, etc, and there's no telling what you might be able to save for a few dollars.
> That's a really retarded one liner. People should be able to state their opinion > about hoarders without being wrongly accused of being the reason we don't have the > games. Give me a fucking break.
I totally agree with you on your point. Thanks for your support.
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