| Bekki Doll |
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A cynical yet secular shiny retrogamer, thread ressurector and fan of the word "gay".
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Reged: 01/28/12
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Mudkip Logic
#292772 - 07/29/12 07:43 AM
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While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks in the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans WERE immigrants.
And that's when I realized that I like Mudkips. :-)
--Bekki
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Combating functional illiteracy with latex-clad drama since the '80s, because old video games rule!
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| Tomu Breidah |
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No Problems, Only Solutions
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Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Yep. Survival of the Fittest and all that rot [nt]
[Re: Bekki Doll]
#292775 - 07/29/12 08:16 AM
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> While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks in
> the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans WERE
> immigrants.
>
> And that's when I realized that I like Mudkips. :-)
>
> --Bekki
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LEVEL-4
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Bekki Doll]
#292778 - 07/29/12 09:21 AM
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> While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks in
> the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans WERE
> immigrants.
I wonder if those who make this comparison between Europeans taking over land populated largely by nomads and Mexicans illegally entering owned land that is part of a country with established laws regarding such actions ever bother to think beyond "they immigrated too."
Don't pretend to be referring to all immigrants. Those who "hate all immigrants" are an ignorant and insignificant group akin to any other racists, to be dealt with as such. Then there's another group offended by those who choose not to assimilate into the culture they've chosen to live within. That is a rather widespread feeling, hardly limited to the United States. One should never choose to live in a place, then expect everyone there to change to suit you.
As for immigration, Asians came here, wandered around, killed giant birds, giant sloths, mammoths, and each other. They were not about peace, love, and happiness. They were about getting what they wanted by whatever means required. The concept that they lived in harmony with nature stems from both their having been around long enough to know stuff, and their being more primitive.
Then Europeans came and eventually killed those people. They took the land by force as those who were there had taken it from the previous residents, several times over several millennia.
War is the way things happen, and a code of law unto itself. If people are invading your country, they should be repelled by the same sorts of methods that have always been used. If they come here in accordance with the rules, there's no need for that.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: TriggerFin]
#292788 - 07/29/12 06:28 PM
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> > While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks in
> > the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans
> WERE
> > immigrants.
>
> I wonder if those who make this comparison between Europeans taking over land
> populated largely by nomads and Mexicans illegally entering owned land that is part
> of a country with established laws regarding such actions ever bother to think beyond
> "they immigrated too."
>
> Don't pretend to be referring to all immigrants. Those who "hate all immigrants" are
> an ignorant and insignificant group akin to any other racists, to be dealt with as
> such. Then there's another group offended by those who choose not to assimilate into
> the culture they've chosen to live within. That is a rather widespread feeling,
> hardly limited to the United States. One should never choose to live in a place, then
> expect everyone there to change to suit you.
>
> As for immigration, Asians came here, wandered around, killed giant birds, giant
> sloths, mammoths, and each other. They were not about peace, love, and happiness.
> They were about getting what they wanted by whatever means required. The concept that
> they lived in harmony with nature stems from both their having been around long
> enough to know stuff, and their being more primitive.
>
> Then Europeans came and eventually killed those people. They took the land by force
> as those who were there had taken it from the previous residents, several times over
> several millennia.
>
> War is the way things happen, and a code of law unto itself. If people are invading
> your country, they should be repelled by the same sorts of methods that have always
> been used. If they come here in accordance with the rules, there's no need for that.
Says the trash that can`t admit that his also an invader.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Ramirez]
#292801 - 07/29/12 07:54 PM
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> > > While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks
> in
> > > the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans
> > WERE
> > > immigrants.
> >
> > I wonder if those who make this comparison between Europeans taking over land
> > populated largely by nomads and Mexicans illegally entering owned land that is part
> > of a country with established laws regarding such actions ever bother to think
> beyond
> > "they immigrated too."
> >
> > Don't pretend to be referring to all immigrants. Those who "hate all immigrants"
> are
> > an ignorant and insignificant group akin to any other racists, to be dealt with as
> > such. Then there's another group offended by those who choose not to assimilate
> into
> > the culture they've chosen to live within. That is a rather widespread feeling,
> > hardly limited to the United States. One should never choose to live in a place,
> then
> > expect everyone there to change to suit you.
> >
> > As for immigration, Asians came here, wandered around, killed giant birds, giant
> > sloths, mammoths, and each other. They were not about peace, love, and happiness.
> > They were about getting what they wanted by whatever means required. The concept
> that
> > they lived in harmony with nature stems from both their having been around long
> > enough to know stuff, and their being more primitive.
> >
> > Then Europeans came and eventually killed those people. They took the land by force
> > as those who were there had taken it from the previous residents, several times
> over
> > several millennia.
> >
> > War is the way things happen, and a code of law unto itself. If people are invading
> > your country, they should be repelled by the same sorts of methods that have always
> > been used. If they come here in accordance with the rules, there's no need for
> that.
>
> Says the trash that can`t admit that his also an invader.
Fuck you. Not only did I say that above about Europeans, my own family came here in the 1930s and had nothing to do with any of it, you non-reading piece of shit.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: TriggerFin]
#292802 - 07/29/12 08:26 PM
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> Fuck you. Not only did I say that above about Europeans, my own family came here in
> the 1930s and had nothing to do with any of it, you non-reading piece of shit.
I actually should have stopped reading your ignorant hate filled piece of post in the first phrase.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Bekki Doll]
#292805 - 07/29/12 08:53 PM
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> While reading a thread featuring Mudkips here I wondered if anti-immigrant folks in
> the U.S. realize that those folks who took the country from the native Americans WERE
> immigrants.
>
> And that's when I realized that I like Mudkips. :-)
>
> --Bekki
In general terms they're only behaving as us Mexicans. You see, we have many nationals here who expect the government to solve all their problems as they work as less as possible. Paratech for example, proved to be one of them (no work, no saves, only games, wife taking care of him, jealous others have health plans).
Basically, the anti-inmigrant folk are lazy workers who expect a population reduction will give them more benefits for their families than working harder on their own. They're upset people with intentions to work* take the same benefits they wouldn't care if the country would not be passing these hard times worldwide.
*These same people could be progressing on their own countries with less hassle, but instead they are blinded by this discontinued illusion called "The American dream". So you could as well say immigrants are lazy workers who expect living in other countries will give them more for working the same.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Ramirez]
#292832 - 07/30/12 09:19 AM
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> > Fuck you. Not only did I say that above about Europeans, my own family came here in
> > the 1930s and had nothing to do with any of it, you non-reading piece of shit.
>
> I actually should have stopped reading your ignorant hate filled piece of post in the
> first phrase.
Where's the hate in my first post? I can see the ad hominem attack straight away in yours. Are you upset because I called out whatever band of hippies you imagine yourself descended from as being just as ready to kill the the guys next door as were the guys that came along and did so unto them? Waah!
Everyone after the first clan of whoever to come to place took it from someone, and all of them including those killed the people who came by afterwards. That's how anyone has anything, and to pretend otherwise is what ignorance is.
There is no group on Earth anywhere today, save perhaps on a few small islands somewhere that no one else noticed, who did not drive out either the people there before them, or the ones who tried to come after. No group of humans found a bit of land and lived there in peace with everyone for ever without trampling someone else somewhere on the way.
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| Bekki Doll |
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A cynical yet secular shiny retrogamer, thread ressurector and fan of the word "gay".
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Reged: 01/28/12
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Posts: 771
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Loc: Freeport, PA
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: BIOS-D]
#292834 - 07/30/12 10:55 AM
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Quote:
These same people could be progressing on their own countries with less hassle, but instead they are blinded by this discontinued illusion called "The American dream".
I can't call them lazy for it takes effort to make that move and take the risks. Starting over within a new country isn't easy if one doesn't have the right connections and has to start from scratch. It would be dumb to state immigrants are lazy just as all anti-immigrant folks are a bunch of uneducated rednecks.
Besides, migrant labor is a not-so-big secret: Very low-paying jobs full of tedious tasks such as cleaning hotel rooms, landscaping, or picking fields will be filled by those who don't have higher skills or credentials for better work. And did I mention that it's cheap labor?
It's one thing for over-exaggerating anti-immigrant folks to state that "They" are taking ALL the jobs. It's another thing to see what those jobs in question actually are.
If only a person would just ask, "So tell me about yourself." and learn about the individuals who choose to leave a country to work, maybe even possibly live, within another one. But that would kill a few stereotypes right there, eh?
--Bekki
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Combating functional illiteracy with latex-clad drama since the '80s, because old video games rule!
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| Hizzout |
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70's baby, early 80's child
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Quote:
If only a person would just ask, "So tell me about yourself." and learn about the individuals who choose to leave a country to work, maybe even possibly live, within another one. But that would kill a few stereotypes right there, eh?
A couple of years ago I helped my father-in-law dig out about 3 feet of expansive soil in his basement. We had to jackhammer the concrete flooring, and with shovels and picks, dig out the bentonite. It was literally TONS of work. My FIL hired another guy, who in turn brought a migrant worker from Mexico and his two teenage sons.
Through broken english the father explained he came to America with his sons so that they could have a better education and more opportunities. The father explained it was already too late for him, but he didn't mind the hard work.
Those two teenage boys never once frowned, complained, and barely rested. They sang, whistled, and joked with each other and myself. If they had been American teenagers I'm sure most of the time they'd be whining, looking at their phones and complaining.
My first paying job was at a golf course - mowing, weeding, landscaping etc. Most of the workers there were Mexican immigrants, and they were the hardest working people there and never complained.
It's been my experience with migrant workers that they are good people, with better work ethics than most American's who would turn their nose up at the work that immigrants do. The people who are most outspoken against migrant workers ("DEY TOOK ER JERBS!!") are just trying to mask their racism and bigotry.
Thank Jesus for your food....you're more than likely right.
[ATTACHED IMAGE]
Edited by Hizzout (07/30/12 04:40 PM)
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Bekki Doll]
#292861 - 07/30/12 06:24 PM
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> I can't call them lazy for it takes effort to make that move and take the risks.
> Starting over within a new country isn't easy if one doesn't have the right
> connections and has to start from scratch. It would be dumb to state immigrants are
> lazy just as all anti-immigrant folks are a bunch of uneducated rednecks.
>
> Besides, migrant labor is a not-so-big secret: Very low-paying jobs full of tedious
> tasks such as cleaning hotel rooms, landscaping, or picking fields will be filled by
> those who don't have higher skills or credentials for better work. And did I mention
> that it's cheap labor?
>
> It's one thing for over-exaggerating anti-immigrant folks to state that "They" are
> taking ALL the jobs. It's another thing to see what those jobs in question actually
> are.
>
> If only a person would just ask, "So tell me about yourself." and learn about the
> individuals who choose to leave a country to work, maybe even possibly live, within
> another one. But that would kill a few stereotypes right there, eh?
>
> --Bekki
I can't argue that. It takes guts to left family (or any support) to pursue a better life, with the promised help of some relatives waiting at the end of a lone road they should travel on their own. So far I have one dead relative left in the dessert by a "coyote" while trying to cross the border. I have also some relatives who (supposedly) lived well during their stance in USA while sending money to their families. However they return with either nothing or at least only enough money to buy a taxi or to put a really small convenience store here. Something they could have achieved in their own land with less risks and more support from known people. I call them lazies because they don't care about studying or prepare themselves for other jobs they could earn more money. They simply left unprepared for doing whatever job they could have done here as well. Some of them even return with the same English level as when they left: zero.
The anti-immigrant people is not different. They blame others for their own faults, in this case the government and immigrants. If their health care plan is inefficient, if their children couldn't enter public school, if they're robbed, if they can't find a job, etc. Everything is everyone's fault except themselves (or people like themselves). Some comments here make me believe they also justify war "because is natural" to invade other territories to gather resources. Talking about primitive civilization methods for established lands.
However and just as Hizzout said, you won't find better humble and hard working labor from any other. Most of them are scouts on unknown lands willing to prepare a way to bring their families too if they succeed. An immigrant knows poverty and will gladly accept any job they can do without hesitation. A legal migrant will not, neither an anti-immigrant. I should also point these illegal immigrants don't come exactly from the big cities but small populations ("pueblos"), so they usually have knowledge about farming, masonry and cattle raising.
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GatKong |
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Tetris Mason
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Hizzout]
#292865 - 07/30/12 06:41 PM
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> The people who are most outspoken against migrant workers ("DEY TOOK ER JERBS!!") are just trying to mask their racism and bigotry.
I think that's a harsh characterization. I don't know a single soul, and there's NO public calls, that are against immigration itself. People are against ILLEGAL immigration.
To say people are againt immigration itself is not supported by ANY public discorse. I've never heard any calls to that effect. Its a distacting arguement to push a political agenda. People are against breaking our laws. Is that so unreasonable?
To circumvent our laws and sneak in is the wrong way to do it. Period.
But I owe all my happiness, family, and love to a legal immigrant I call Gatinha. She came here the right way, on a Visa, and has since EARNED her citizenship.
I'm against illegal immigration which is breaking our laws. That doesn't make me a racist bigot... It makes me a supporter of a fair and free society ruled by laws.
> Thank Jesus for your food....you're more than likely right.
That's awesome! I need to pass that on.
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| Hizzout |
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70's baby, early 80's child
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: GatKong]
#292867 - 07/30/12 07:00 PM
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Quote:
I think that's a harsh characterization
Alright alright, I'm guilty of using blanket statements. It's been MY experience anyway that when I hear people against immigration (legal or otherwise), and people taking jobs, they're only talking about Mexican immigrants and it's usually pretty clear what they're getting at.
My in-laws are legal immigrants from the Czech Republic, escaped from Russian communism. Father-in-law was an aeronautical engineer, on the team of designers for the titan rocket engines responsible for getting Voyager to Saturn and beyond. Not sure anyone would've shouted that he took anyone's "jerb", nor has he ever been told to go back to his country.
Quote:
To say people are againt immigration itself is not supported by ANY public discorse. I've never heard any calls to that effect.
You're clearly not watching enough Fox News.
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| Bekki Doll |
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A cynical yet secular shiny retrogamer, thread ressurector and fan of the word "gay".
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Reged: 01/28/12
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Posts: 771
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: GatKong]
#292869 - 07/30/12 07:31 PM
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Quote:
I think that's a harsh characterization. I don't know a single soul, and there's NO public calls, that are against immigration itself. People are against ILLEGAL immigration.
Therein lies the rub: A bureaucratic technicality over what is "good" and what is "bad" immigration. The differentiation makes no difference to desperate people who want to work no matter the risks involved.
And what good are laws that punish hard-working people? People who want to provide a better future for their own families? I've mentioned the type of work involved that relies upon migrant workers simply because it's very hard and tedious work and low-cost to the company that exploits such labor. Those immigration laws only serve to act as a bigger stick to keep the workers in line on the line.
Do some research on the meatpacking and animal-rendering industries, for example. It's one of the most hazardous jobs out there. I personally wouldn't want to work there. But those jobs need to be done so why not have that industry also get around that notion of "illegal" immigration?
If that problem is to be solved then the industries involved would have to be willing to pay extra, from wages, benefits, and workplace safety, to offer such work to legal U.S. citizens. That means cuts in company profits. That means less return on investment capital. That means less money available for brib^H^H^H^Hcampaign contributions. And the cycle repeats itself.
As long as there's a free market then immigration and migrant workers will be seen as both a problem politically yet as a solution economically. The "legal" vs. "illegal" nonsense is simply that: A distraction for the sake of feel-good political pandering in order to keep things exactly the way they are.
As for the pawns pushing for tougher anti-immigration legislation I'd have more support for them if they bothered to work the lines for a while at IBP.
--Bekki
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Combating functional illiteracy with latex-clad drama since the '80s, because old video games rule!
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: TriggerFin]
#292870 - 07/30/12 08:02 PM
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You already distilled your hate, despise and contempt for Asians, Mexicans, Native Americans and hippies. What's next Triggerboy? Who will you aim next? Africans? Arabs? Jews? Tell us what you really think about them. Better yet, get out of your hole and tell me what you hate about Brazilians.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Hizzout]
#292871 - 07/30/12 08:07 PM
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This image is cool in so many levels...
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| Bekki Doll |
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A cynical yet secular shiny retrogamer, thread ressurector and fan of the word "gay".
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Reged: 01/28/12
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Posts: 771
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Loc: Freeport, PA
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Hizzout]
#292872 - 07/30/12 09:19 PM
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Quote:
You're clearly not watching enough Fox News.
Oh. My. Mudkips!
I know this guy who runs a recovery club for drunks in Penn Hills, PA. He usually arrives sometime in the afternoon to open up the club from the afternoon-to-evening. From approximately 14:00 to 17:30 he watched the Faux News Channel. And he's usually alone until around 16:00.
What an impotently angry person he is: He spends that time yelling at the idiot screen as if the folks on the other side care. And he's been doing that for YEARS!
What pains me is if I know of this one person and can see how such isolation to the outside world causes such long-term mental deterioration I wonder if this isn't just an isolated incident? I wonder how many thousands, if not millions, do the same to the point of actually ruining themselves in the process.
I know that I used to be that person until I woke up and saw what a waste all of that is: To be that ideologically bigoted and not see things from the other side. To me it would be utterly disastrous to lose that shred of human empathy.
But that's the way it is: The debilitating ruse of "Us" vs. "Them". And, in the end, not seeing it for the zero-sum game that it is and becoming just another pawn.
I see him and see the danger of seething in one-sided crap. And the blind belief that to abandon it would be the end of life itself. It's just like any drug addiction where the pain to give it all up for the uncertainty of life without keeps people coming back to it One Day At A Time.
I do without that nonsense. It was worth a week's worth of pain. I laugh about all that now and see what a fool I was back when I was a political activist. It's as if a weight was taken off my own shoulders once I found that freedom in seeing it all for what it is rather than just from only one side: A freedom found in not conforming to others' nonsense.
It's either that or being that other guy.
So I can understand why people watch Faux News, listen to Limbaugh, or some other propagandist in general that keeps things politically correct in general. It feels good to belong to something no matter what little effort is involved, such as just sitting in that room with no one but that idiot screen.
And just as dehumanizing that is so are the "Us" vs. "Them" arguments that are based in stereotypes with no human insight involved.
--Bekki
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Combating functional illiteracy with latex-clad drama since the '80s, because old video games rule!
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Ramirez]
#292890 - 07/31/12 03:03 AM
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> You already distilled your hate, despise and contempt for Asians, Mexicans, Native
> Americans and hippies. What's next Triggerboy? Who will you aim next? Africans?
> Arabs? Jews? Tell us what you really think about them. Better yet, get out of your
> hole and tell me what you hate about Brazilians.
Guess what, imbecile? You're wrong on all counts.
The only group of people I've any disdain toward is those who do just what you've done here; you can't answer a simple question when asked to defend your charge, and lead off every post with insults, followed by nothing but more insults, and I've only directed anything negative at someone doing that.
My quick summary of part of the history of the colonization of the world is not in any part hatred of anything, and to not see that you must have some issues of your own to work through. If you're anything more than a troll, shut the fuck up until you can actually think through whatever it is and answer a question properly.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: TriggerFin]
#292897 - 07/31/12 04:39 AM
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I could scrutinize the rest of your post, but this piece of non punctuated garbage is enough to show the piece of shit you are:
> I wonder if those who make this comparison between Europeans taking over land
> populated largely by nomads and Mexicans illegally entering owned land that is part
> of a country with established laws regarding such actions ever bother to think beyond
> "they immigrated too."
Yes, there is no comparison between the extermination of an entire population and culture, with foreign illegally crossing a country's border. What's revolting, is your judgement of values. You reduced the importance of native Americans extermination, to present it as a less important fact than Mexicans crossing U.S. borders.
Here you're showing your despise and contempt for Mexicans and Native Americans.
> Guess what, imbecile? You're wrong on all counts.
>
> The only group of people I've any disdain toward is those who do just what you've
> done here; you can't answer a simple question when asked to defend your charge, and
> lead off every post with insults, followed by nothing but more insults, and I've only
> directed anything negative at someone doing that.
I didn't answer before, in the scrutinized way that you think you're entitled to, simply because your assertions and justifications are so absurd, that it didn't deserve to be answered. Why would I answer to a mentally weak person like you? I don't know... but I just did it.
How I already said, I should have stopped reading your ignorant hate filled piece of post in the first phrase.
I sincerely hope you're sterile or that no one let a child go near you, so you can't brainwash the child with all the shit you have in your head.
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Re: Mudkip Logic
[Re: Ramirez]
#292907 - 07/31/12 08:08 AM
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> I could scrutinize the rest of your post, but this piece of non punctuated garbage is
> enough to show the piece of shit you are:
>
> > I wonder if those who make this comparison between Europeans taking over land
> > populated largely by nomads and Mexicans illegally entering owned land that is part
> > of a country with established laws regarding such actions ever bother to think
> beyond
> > "they immigrated too."
>
> Yes, there is no comparison between the extermination of an entire population and
> culture, with foreign illegally crossing a country's boarder.
"Border."
Eight million people is an invasion. The twelve million before that that we decided to ignore were, too, until we told them they could stay.
> What's revolting, is
> your judgement of values. You reduced the importance of native Americans
> extermination, to present it as a less important fact than Mexicans crossing U.S.
> boarders.
> Here you're showing your despise and contempt for Mexicans and Native Americans.
There you go again. I never said anything bad about the second group that I didn't say about everyone in the whole world, ever, and I said, what, exactly, about the first group? Oh, right. Nothing. If you think all Mexicans are illegal immigrants, that's you, not me. I said I, and most people, have no problem at all with anyone who chooses to come here legally.
> > Guess what, imbecile? You're wrong on all counts.
> >
> > The only group of people I've any disdain toward is those who do just what you've
> > done here; you can't answer a simple question when asked to defend your charge, and
> > lead off every post with insults, followed by nothing but more insults, and I've
> only
> > directed anything negative at someone doing that.
>
> I didn't answer before, in the scrutinized way that you think you're entitled to,
> simply because your assertions and justifications are so absurd, that it didn't
> deserve to be answered. Why would I answer to a mentally weak person like you? I
> don't know... but I just did it.
You lack the ability to reason and comprehend. I said things and you chose, and still choose, to claim I said something entirely different. If I think I'm "entitled" to something, it would be not being attacked for saying something I never said or meaning something I specifically excluded from what I said. That would be civil discourse in a public forum, rather than your hateful rhetoric.
Further unjustifiable hate from you deleted.
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