Just for curiousity during the Playstation years in 1995 when Williams Arcades Greatest Hits was released, was MAME inspired by Digital Eclipses technology, Or was it the other way around?
I’m convinced Mario is a hobo.
He wakes up everyday in the same clothes, runs around in sewers, and collects coins for a living.
At the end of the day, he uses the coins to buy mushrooms
I'm going to say neither. I just spent an hour digging through what I could find, and based on (possibly somewhat flawed) memory, texts I found scouring the net, and so forth...
The release date for WAC is October 1st, 1995, for the MS-DOS version. That gives slightly under 15 months between that release and the first version of Multi-Pac (which would have been right before Christmas, 1996)
During that timeframe, I believe a number of single arcade machine emulators came out. A lot of the early records from 1994-1996 were lost; archives for sites like the old Emu News Service still exist, but that site started in early 1997.
Hell, I'm having a hard time getting an exact release date on Virtual GameBoy 0.2, as that'd be the release that brought me into emulation.
Any case, getting back onto the original topic, MAME didn't start killing off the single-system emulators until around 1998. Before that point, a LOT of single-machine emulators popped up, got a few releases, then died as their authors got bored. After that point, those emulators died because MAME hoovered the technical information right up (which created a stress point between the MAME devs of that era and the single emulator authors, but that's also not relevant to this topic)
With all those single machine emulators and the year's time between, I don't think the WAC pack had any bearing on the situation. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that Multi-Pac was inspired by the other single-machine emulators of the era. He started with Pac-Man, discovered the other Pac sets ran on nearly identical hardware, and then Aaron Giles popped up with the necessary slight modifications to make Mappy work. At that point, it wasn't just Pac-Man anymore, so they had to change the name. The addition of other CPU cores only further sent MAME down a different path.
The right people at the right times, with the right obsessions in games. That's how MAME came to be.
> Just for curiousity during the Playstation years in 1995 when Williams Arcades > Greatest Hits was released, was MAME inspired by Digital Eclipses technology, Or was > it the other way around?
Williams Arcade Greatest Hits (most likely the name is wrong) released in 1994 was written for the Mac first, which was the first multiply game arcade emulator, DASArcade written by Dave Spicer was the first PC (DOS) based multiply game emulator which was release in 95 or early 96. The where a few single game emulators around and some computer emulators also. I still remember getting some single game emulators for DOS that was done in assembly versus C like MAME. There was one that was smaller than the roms, for Space Invaders.
The Playstation William emulator wasn't very good, it barely ran the games at full speed, I know I think I still have the disk for the Playstation around somewhere, I know I still have my Playstation but no wires to connect it to the TV. The Playstation is slow compared to a Computer of that era, I have a friend who programmed console back then.
> DASArcade written by Dave Spicer was the first PC (DOS) based multiply game emulator > which was release in 95 or early 96.
A multi-game Cinematronics emulator, called Cinelator or similar (IIRC), was developed about about a year before the first version of Sparcade (DASarcade) was released. However it was in "private testing" during this time, and only approved beta testers could access it. No, I wasn't one, but I did ask IIRC, they were trying to take this commercial (and that explains the private release). One of the authors is still active on these forums !
Quote: From David himself: After getting completely p*ssed off with the games industry, I went to Kent Uni to study VLSI circuit engineering. Once I'd completed my course, I spent 3 months writing Sparcade [for those who don't know, this is a very good arcade machine emulator, one of the first that appeared] with the intention of developing it commercially as a last "fling" before going into the electronics industry. However, no software companies were prepared to take it on, all lacking the foresight to see the imminent flood of interest in retro-gaming.
Which is very interesting, because Dave and I exchanged many, many dozens of emails during 1995/1996, and I offered to financially back him (and I specifically mentioned quite large sums of money. e.g. well over $50,000) so that he could take his emulator commercial.
He just wasn't interested. The licensing of games was too difficult, he said. Going commercial was going to be too painful and too much hassle and something he just didn't want to do. He never mentioned he was talking to "software companies" .... Maybe this was later ? He also never told me he was "p*ssed off with the games industry". But, even in his emails, I could feel a definite resistance there .... I just never knew what or why ! LOL !
It's funny that he is slinging off that "no software companies were prepared to take it on, all lacking the foresight to see the imminent flood of interest in retro-gaming", when he had a solid financial backer (me) and he could have used my money to take his emulator commercial himself and (mostly) avoid having to deal with the "games industry" he was so "p*ssed off with".
Anyway 17 years later and looking back, I'm kinda glad he didn't take me up on my offers. Way too many pirates, the rise of the free emulators, the almost complete lack of interest from the game companies in such projects (until much later), etc, and let's face it, Dave's heart just wasn't in going commercial.
> With all those single machine emulators and the year's time between, I don't think > the WAC pack had any bearing on the situation. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest > that Multi-Pac was inspired by the other single-machine emulators of the era. He > started with Pac-Man, discovered the other Pac sets ran on nearly identical hardware, > and then Aaron Giles popped up with the necessary slight modifications to make Mappy > work. At that point, it wasn't just Pac-Man anymore, so they had to change the name. > The addition of other CPU cores only further sent MAME down a different path.
That isn't quite right; MAME had multiple CPUs (and was called MAME) for several months prior to Aaron showing up. Aaron's own history page has a pretty good treatment of that.
I do agree otherwise that MAME/MultiPac were an organic result of where things were going at that time.
> The right people at the right times, with the right obsessions in games. That's how > MAME came to be.
Sparcade... ahh... brings a tear to me eye, remembering the first time I saw Pac-Man running on my P133. I think I first downloaded it from your site back then, Moose, IIRC...
I kept up on Sparcade releases as Dave slowly brought them out, even though I had discovered MAME at Atmospherical Heights (Delite... remember him and that site?) and it was barreling ahead at full-speed later in '97. I still remember checking AH every Monday for the newest release, as Mirko was putting them out once a week at the time. It was only when MAME started to support vector games that I started to lose interest in Sparcade, but it was still the fastest arcade emulator around for a while. I recall that some subsequent releases had games that weren't supported by MAME at the time (I think Alcon was one of them...?), so I kept checking up on it from time to time.
Dave did have somewhat of an independent personality. Not to dredge up any past rumors or anything, but I recall there was some sort of conflict with him and MAME wanting to use some of his research, and he wanted nothing to do with it. I could be mistaken, though; it's been a long time.
It's humorous to me now, that I'm a bit nostalgic for the earlier days of arcade emulation, when back then, I was nostalgic for the games of my youth. Getting old...
"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
Yep, funny it's almost to the point where nostalgia for the golden era of emulation is as old as the time difference of emulated sytems to the original machines: 1980-1997, 1997-2012.
> Yep, funny it's almost to the point where nostalgia for the golden era of emulation > is as old as the time difference of emulated sytems to the original machines: > 1980-1997, 1997-2012. > > Convoluted sentence but you get the drift.
It's interesting to see how the technology curve has flattened in those two intervals. In 1997, games and computing in general was light years beyond where it was in 1980, to the point where a 1980 vintage machine was so obsolete as to be useless. In 2012, we've definitely advanced beyond 1997, but it feels a lot more incremental. A 1997 vintage machine today would feel creaky, to say the least, but you could still run a fair amount of modern software on it.
It's possible. It's been a long time and I'm getting up there in years, so my memory isn't as good as it was. I may have confused him with one of the myriad of emulation authors from the late 90s-early 00s...
"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
> I thought Dave Spicer contributed to .36 and did most of the technical coding in > Mame.
Dave Spicer did zero technical coding in MAME. I believe he was actively hostile to the project in that time period, although he did eventually pass along some info on Gradius II.
> > DASArcade written by Dave Spicer was the first PC (DOS) based multiply game > emulator > > which was release in 95 or early 96. > > A multi-game Cinematronics emulator, called Cinelator or similar (IIRC), was > developed about about a year before the first version of Sparcade (DASarcade) was > released. However it was in "private testing" during this time, and only approved > beta testers could access it. No, I wasn't one, but I did ask IIRC, they were trying > to take this commercial (and that explains the private release). One of the authors > is still active on these forums ! >
If it's not publicly available, it doesn't exist, in my opinion. Anyone can claim stuff, but unless people use it, it useless, ie. vaporware. Like I said I have been following emulation since 95 when I got my P75, and I have never heard of it or at least remember it, so it really made a splash. (sarcasm)
I think, unless your the company that owns the roms or have a contract with them it would be to hard to take an emulator that was written by a 3rd party, commercial, even if it's 1995, 2005 or 2012, the year doesn't make a difference.
> I've just seen this from Dave Spicer: > Ref: http://www.fizyka.umk.pl/~jacek/zx/faq_old/whereis2.html#SPICER > > From David himself: > After getting completely p*ssed off with the games industry, I went to Kent Uni to > study VLSI circuit engineering. Once I'd completed my course, I spent 3 months > writing Sparcade [for those who don't know, this is a very good arcade machine > emulator, one of the first that appeared] with the intention of developing it > commercially as a last "fling" before going into the electronics industry. However, > no software companies were prepared to take it on, all lacking the foresight to see > the imminent flood of interest in retro-gaming. > > Which is very interesting, because Dave and I exchanged many, many dozens of emails > during 1995/1996, and I offered to financially back him (and I specifically mentioned > quite large sums of money. e.g. well over $50,000) so that he could take his emulator > commercial. > > He just wasn't interested. The licensing of games was too difficult, he said. Going > commercial was going to be too painful and too much hassle and something he just > didn't want to do. He never mentioned he was talking to "software companies" .... > Maybe this was later ? He also never told me he was "p*ssed off with the games > industry". But, even in his emails, I could feel a definite resistance there .... I > just never knew what or why ! LOL ! > > It's funny that he is slinging off that "no software companies were prepared to take > it on, all lacking the foresight to see the imminent flood of interest in > retro-gaming", when he had a solid financial backer (me) and he could have used my > money to take his emulator commercial himself and (mostly) avoid having to deal with > the "games industry" he was so "p*ssed off with". > > Anyway 17 years later and looking back, I'm kinda glad he didn't take me up on my > offers. Way too many pirates, the rise of the free emulators, the almost complete > lack of interest from the game companies in such projects (until much later), etc, > and let's face it, Dave's heart just wasn't in going commercial.
Hmmm, I remember you offering to back a commerical venture. To be frank, a wad of cash was never going to do it and what I needed was the backing of a company able to secure a suitable licensing deal. If I'd taken your money, you would've probably ended up out of pocket with nothing to show for it.
The attempts to go commercial mentioned above predated any of my releases by a considerable time period. The first demo of Sparcade (then untitled) was pimped to various companies in the summer of 1995 and there was a distinct lack of interest from all of them. I remember Electronic Arts missing the point completely by saying they were "only interested in original titles".
Later, when Sparcade was doing well, there there were several enquiries from interested companies, all of which came to naught. The one that really annoyed me was Williams because it became evident they were talking to me about games they'd already comissioned from Digital Eclipse. I believe it was a case of the left hand not knowing what the right was doing rather than any deliberate attempt at deception.
If I'd gone with a backer post-release, it would've been with a company in the UK whose MD was a fan of Sparcade. They had the resources to do it, but by that stage I was more interested in developing my career in the electronics industry.
>He also never told me he was "p*ssed off with the games > industry".
Again... you need to go further back. I was writing lousy budget games in the early 90s and grew to hate every minute of it. I quit in '92, only briefly returning to knock out a couple of early PC games for Codemasters.
> > I thought Dave Spicer contributed to .36 and did most of the technical coding in > > Mame. > > Dave Spicer did zero technical coding in MAME. I believe he was actively hostile to > the project in that time period, although he did eventually pass along some info on > Gradius II.
Actively hostile? Lol.
Actually somebody involved with Mame threw their toys out of the pram when I didn't help them with technical info. There were at least a couple of occasions where I either didn't know the answer or didn't have time to write up a detailed explanation, yet both were treated as being difficult.
Mame devs weren't the worst offenders. There was a nutter trying to write a Gauntlet emulator who was convinced I was sitting on a fully-working emulation and sent me a stream of abuse for not helping them. Mad as a box of frogs.
Cheers Dave! Thanks for your input, and please excuse any assumptions I may have made on your character. They weren't meant to be denigrating in any way.
As I recall (correctly or otherwise), I think we had corresponded back in 1998 or 1999, and I had sent you my Gradius 2 dump for you to take a look at and for possible inclusion into Sparcade. I may be wrong, though (again, my memory is knackered), but somehow I do recall sending you images that I had dumped of...something... I *did* dump that board at one time, but it may have been something else that I sent along. Then again, I could be completely mad...
I *do* know of the bloke you speak regarding the Gauntlet emulator, and my recollection of him was of contempt of anyone who wouldn't help him, as well as utter disregard of anyone who contacted him that he didn't "need." Over-inflated sense of self-worth? Youthful megalomania? Maybe. Some of that was flying around then; much of it, I think, to be the "first" to accomplish a specific emulation feat; but it's worth a chuckle to think of these days.
I look back fondly on those days, even if some events of that time were somewhat silly. I freely admit that I took part in some of it myself. The accomplishments in arcade emulation of the time more than overshadowed all of that nonsense, though. Fun and exciting times, they were...
> > The right people at the right times, with the right obsessions in games. That's how > > MAME came to be. > > Yup. It was magic, and you can't recapture it.
Boom. It can't be said any better than that. Cheers!
Quote: > > > I thought Dave Spicer contributed to .36 and did most of the technical coding in > > > Mame. > > > > Dave Spicer did zero technical coding in MAME. I believe he was actively hostile to > > the project in that time period, although he did eventually pass along some info on > > Gradius II. > > Actively hostile? Lol. > > Actually somebody involved with Mame threw their toys out of the pram when I didn't > help them with technical info. There were at least a couple of occasions where I > either didn't know the answer or didn't have time to write up a detailed explanation, > yet both were treated as being difficult. > > Mame devs weren't the worst offenders. There was a nutter trying to write a Gauntlet > emulator who was convinced I was sitting on a fully-working emulation and sent me a > stream of abuse for not helping them. Mad as a box of frogs.
Thank you for responding and clearing that matter up. Your Sparcade is the most often used emulator on my tiny bartop. Booting her up reminds me of the early days of arcade emulation.
I'm sorry about Mr Belmont's comments, and I hope he didn't offend you. Mr. Belmont does a lot of maintenance work on Mame, and perhaps feels intimidated by the fact you are the one of the few who created and innovated the multi-arcade (PC) gaming genre. He means well.
I hope you are still interested in arcade emulation, and I hope you will find the time to update your website, with any future emulation projects you might have planned.
> I'm sorry about Mr Belmont's comments, and I hope he didn't offend you. Mr. Belmont > does a lot of maintenance work on Mame, and perhaps feels intimidated by the fact you > are the one of the few who created and innovated the multi-arcade (PC) gaming genre. > He means well.
WTF if that isn't flamebait I don't know what is. You looking to be banned?
> Thank you for responding and clearing that matter up. Your Sparcade is the most often > used emulator on my tiny bartop. Booting her up reminds me of the early days of > arcade emulation. > > I'm sorry about Mr Belmont's comments, and I hope he didn't offend you. Mr. Belmont > does a lot of maintenance work on Mame, and perhaps feels intimidated by the fact you > are the one of the few who created and innovated the multi-arcade (PC) gaming genre. > He means well. > > I hope you are still interested in arcade emulation, and I hope you will find the > time to update your website, with any future emulation projects you might have > planned.
I doubt very much whether Richard is intimidated. He's probably got more emulation experience than me these days. All forums are 2 misunderstandings away from a flame war, so let's try not to start one here. :-)
Multi-arcade emulation would've happened without Sparcade, Mame or any other emulator, I was just fortunate to get in there near the beginning when the scene was still fresh and exciting. Good times.
> I doubt very much whether Richard is intimidated.
Indeed. I loved your work back in the day, but intimidation was never on the menu. Bizi's just trying to cause some trouble, that's how he is
> Multi-arcade emulation would've happened without Sparcade, Mame or any other > emulator, I was just fortunate to get in there near the beginning when the scene was > still fresh and exciting. Good times.
Same. I ran all the single-game emulators at the time, then Sparcade and MAME. Like I said in another comment, it was magic back then, and that's long gone.
Perhaps I was a little harsh with Mr Belmont. I used to work as a Project Manager with a bunch of application programmers in my last job, and I have never understood why they were so delicate towards certain verbs. Probably something to do with the words "that's crap" and "do it again" that got all their eyes misty. Especially on revision day (Friday).
I'm just thrilled to be able to voice my appreciation for your work on Sparcade and how your efforts started the interest in the arcade emulation phenomenon. Mame would not have gotten its popularity if it wasn't for multi-arcade emulator gems like Sparcade.
Spicer? Wow, nice to see a founder back in the forum. You too Moose
Defender for the Mac by digital Eclipse. I spotted this at the Mac Expo in San Francisco and it made me very happy to see it. I think at the time i was still playing with early atari emulation on the PC, so that I could play the arcade classics.
Oh, yeah those days were magic. Almost hourly updates, finding all of the spicer roms, hacking the zipped password into the fensende gauntlet emulator. Mame slowly gaining speed. The Retrobabe. She only lives on Windows 95
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IIRC, they were trying to take this commercial (and that explains the private release). One of the authors is still active on these forums !
Especially on revision day (Friday).
