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Combined build
#284492 - 05/01/12 01:11 AM
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What is the level of interest in a combined mess & mame build?
Should it have everything, or just the working games?
Should it have pinball?
Should it have poker machines?
I've made a combined messui with working games only, no mechanical, no pinball, no poker machines, total 7466 systems & games. I can't release it until u8 appears, but i'd like comments in the meantime.
Thx 
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| CiroConsentino |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284495 - 05/01/12 01:26 AM
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| redk9258 |
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Regular
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284497 - 05/01/12 01:36 AM
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How hard is it to do? I wouldn't mind doing a TINY MAMEUI build with about 40 arcade games and maybe a couple of game consoles added (Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Gameboy, etc.).
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> not a good idea. I prefer to have MAME separated from MESS.
Those builds will continue to exist... for now.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: redk9258]
#284502 - 05/01/12 01:48 AM
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> How hard is it to do? I wouldn't mind doing a TINY MAMEUI build with about 40 arcade
> games and maybe a couple of game consoles added (Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Gameboy,
> etc.).
I used a script to create the 2 files.
In your case you only have a few systems so it could be done by hand.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284512 - 05/01/12 03:27 AM
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the main problem is it's going to be a bug festival.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Combined build
[Re: kevenz]
#284526 - 05/01/12 05:45 AM
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> the main problem is it's going to be a bug festival.
That and no one will totally agree upon what games should and shouldn't be included. I hope you got a flame suit 
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284591 - 05/01/12 07:20 PM
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Very interested. This is something that should continue to be refined and worked with over time, even if there are a few initial teething issues.
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---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: Combined build
[Re: B2K24]
#284592 - 05/01/12 08:02 PM
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If anyone here starts flaming over someone making a custom tiny build I'll delete them and hand out temp bans.
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| Cable |
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retro gamer
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284606 - 05/01/12 11:53 PM
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Its a good idea for something a bit different. To be honest i really do hope mame will always be released seperately from mess but i would have no problem with a joint release. The choice would be welcome
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| Naoki |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284612 - 05/02/12 12:15 AM
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I might be potentially interested too in the concept.. 
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On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284857 - 05/04/12 04:49 AM
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I prefer MAME to definitely be separate from MESS. Maybe years down the road once MESS' emulation improves a great deal, I wouldn't mind. But until then, I would like to keep them separate.
But I'm sure some other people would like it. So if you want to make a combination build, you should go for it.
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| CptGuapo |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284859 - 05/04/12 05:22 AM
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I prefer separated too. Arcades and alike in a side, console and computers in another one.
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"Mythology is what grownups believe, folklore is what they tell children and religion is both."
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Re: Combined build (yes, and thanks).
[Re: Robbbert]
#284865 - 05/04/12 06:38 AM
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> What is the level of interest in a combined mess & mame build?
Thanks for approaching this issue seriously, Robbbert. A combined build is such a good idea for so many reasons, it's kindof ridiculous. The future will be the judge of that though, of course.
I think it's a good idea to include everything (pinball, poker machines etc.) in one build partially because pursuing the alternative is really just delaying the inevitable. It reminds me of the days when gambling machines were added, then considered taboo and removed, only to be re-added later. Recall the logic in the decision to re-add and apply here.
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#284867 - 05/04/12 07:31 AM
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> What is the level of interest in a combined mess & mame build?
>
> Should it have everything, or just the working games?
Everything of course!
I know Haze have been providing a way to make a combined build for a while and that most of the devs seem to be against merging MAME and MESS. Now that the MESS project maintainer is also the MAME maintainer I guess this could change.
I'm not for or against merging, but that's because I don't really understand what the issue is or what the full implications are. So far, personally I don't see a negative side but I guess that's because I am not a developer.
History will show that whatever is decided tends to work out in a way that's best for the project, at least as far as people on the outside can see.
Whatever happens I will continue to do what I do, which is absolutely nothing, besides sitting back, watching cool things happen. Oh yeah I did place a MAME logo sticker on my bass drum.
S
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Sune]
#284899 - 05/04/12 05:03 PM
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> I know Haze have been providing a way to make a combined build for a while and that
> most of the devs seem to be against merging MAME and MESS.
My brain hurts. The projects ARE merged, for all intents and purposes. There is one list and one leader. However, merging the projects has nothing to do with shipping a combined build. It's nice to have as a prerequisite, but one doesn't require the other.
Given that a majority of users (and devs) don't want the combined build, and that it would greatly increase bandwidth costs for MW and our other mirrors, it would be dumb to do it.
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| AeroCityMayor |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#284960 - 05/05/12 12:14 AM
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>
> Given that a majority of users (and devs) don't want the combined build, and that it
> would greatly increase bandwidth costs for MW and our other mirrors, it would be dumb
> to do it.
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Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#284963 - 05/05/12 12:32 AM
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> Given that a majority of users (and devs) don't want the combined build, and that it
> would greatly increase bandwidth costs for MW and our other mirrors, it would be dumb
> to do it.
As far as users go, it's split about 50/50 if you are using this thread as a gauge (which is only about 10 people anyway - hardly representative). And I'm willing to bet not all the folks who are voicing opposition fully understand the benefits of a combined build - when confronted with an unqualified choice, it's human nature to go with whatever you're comfortable with and resist change. I do it all the time.
Just a thought, but I think this thread could benefit from a dev's brief summary of the pros/cons from an objective viewpoint. Perhaps different results would be obtained - and probably a more statistically significant number of them.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Shoegazr]
#285230 - 05/07/12 12:42 AM
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Since you guys seem to be... counting (like every MAME and/or MESS user is in here), count me in for merged build.
Actually I'd even want merged build to be the DEFAULT build, but anyway I wouldn't mind if we actually get three builds and don't even advertise the (combined) third. Let us that want it, have it.
Also sorry but I read some not very smart comments, possibly coming from ignorance?
For example:
- What about the question about what to include? Yes MESS allows for software lists but this is not part of the actual emulation (I for one accept TOSEC as the only real list and MESS should just use that). A potential "ROM testing" (like from clrmamepro) involving MESS or combined builds shouldn't be bothered about the software lists, only the emulated machines (for MESS part) and emulated games (for MAME part). Now I understand that in some second stage in the future, a coin-op game based on Megadrive hardware COULD be classified as such and be included in a megadrive list. But we don't have to worry about this yet.
- As a general philosophy, aside from MAME and MESS everything should be emulated that is filtered out by (questionable) moral rules or whatever. Let lists separate things, let it have a nice parental control or something embedded, but the system should support as much as it can.
- More bugs? Sure you know what you are talking about? Actually LESS bugs. The source tree is already more or less one. Why separate the bugs and even the teams? Something resolved (or found) in one side, is quite commonly same for the other side.
- Someone else says he will wait for MESS emulation to progress more first. Erm... do you realize that MESS already exists in MAMEs bones an the opposite? Nobody expects for MESS to replace WinUAE for example, but the 68000 emulation MAME and MESS use is the same (one and only). So what are you talking about?
- Someone else prefers to separate because of an arbitrary difference. Arcade on one side he says. Well many newer arcades are actually well known computers or consoles inside. So what. Is the "insert coin" that bothers you? Why not have a separate MAME for each game classification too? Or a different MESS for 8 bits, for 16 bits an for 32 bits? Come on, all these things can be FILTERED by a nice front-end (already).
---
I think some people don't want the merge because of political reasons. Politics should be OUT of an open source project. Am I wrong?
Other people don't want the merge because they are not really aware of the internal workings of those two (?) projects (that are actually like 95% common already). And those other people that I said above (the politics) don't help these people here actually understand.
I think both obstacles are temporary and the merge inevitable. So get things going already.
As I said, give separate builds for those that want to stick to separate builds for their own reasons, but allow for an OFFICIAL merged build (that if you ask me eventually will take over and we ALL know that).
Thank you all for your time. I didn't intend to insult anybody, sorry if I sounded harsh.
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NLS
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| Sune |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285258 - 05/07/12 04:21 AM
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> Let lists separate
> things, let it have a nice parental control or something embedded
It's up to you what you want to run in MAME and MESS. It's not the responsibility of anyone else but you. Emulation is one thing, content is another.
If your child discovers the password for the adult channels, it's not the cable company's problem.
> I think some people don't want the merge because of political reasons. Politics
> should be OUT of an open source project.
And so should "parental controls".
S
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285263 - 05/07/12 04:27 AM
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> > I know Haze have been providing a way to make a combined build for a while and that
> > most of the devs seem to be against merging MAME and MESS.
>
> My brain hurts. The projects ARE merged, for all intents and purposes.
I KNOW that ffs. By "merging" I meant the combined build.
Show me how to build MAME from MESS svn on my Mac so I don't have to download diffs and patch with every u release.
S
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Sune]
#285298 - 05/07/12 11:14 AM
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We actually agree, you miss my point.
Some parental control could/should be in a front-end.
I don't care for it actually, I am just saying this for all people that want "separations".
Instead of separating things (that are not actually separated), FILTER things.
I would love for MAME to be transposed to... MAME (only this time actually also be MESS in there) and if people want what we call "coin-ops" in some places, to FILTER those through the front-end (or the embedded front-end or even command line).
With today CPUs and RAM (even for... mobile devices), the whole separation which is based on a technicality is moot. In the end, keep providing the unmerged builds if someone so wants. It's like building a specific build with only a subset of engines compiled in it.
In any case everything points to merge eventually.
> > Let lists separate
> > things, let it have a nice parental control or something embedded
>
> It's up to you what you want to run in MAME and MESS. It's not the responsibility of
> anyone else but you. Emulation is one thing, content is another.
>
> If your child discovers the password for the adult channels, it's not the cable
> company's problem.
>
> > I think some people don't want the merge because of political reasons. Politics
> > should be OUT of an open source project.
>
> And so should "parental controls".
>
> S
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NLS
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Sune]
#285299 - 05/07/12 11:28 AM
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> Show me how to build MAME from MESS svn on my Mac so I don't have to download diffs
> and patch with every u release.
>
> S
get Haze's UME folder containing a ume.mak and ume.lst files including just the MAME and MESS ones.
at every release, just patch the two trees and launch "make TARGET=universal" or ume or whatever Haze liked to call
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285302 - 05/07/12 12:42 PM
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I believe you could have the best of both worlds. MESS and MAME can be united, yet become even more separated than before.
Why not have C64 or NES be just like any other hardware platform in MAME, that is ROM images you load in MAME just like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, with their drivers designed in similar manner as any other PCB in MAME, as "driver", not interwoven within and obfuscating MAME code.
Would not that be more natural continuation of the already existing design in MAME? Why not treat C64 "PCB" just like Pacman PCB? Would not this make for cleaner and simpler code, and make both sides equally happy?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285303 - 05/07/12 01:31 PM
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> Would not that be more natural continuation of the already existing design in MAME?
> Why not treat C64 "PCB" just like Pacman PCB? Would not this make for cleaner and
> simpler code, and make both sides equally happy?
you do know that what you says is *exactly* what MESS already does?
maybe you shall check what you're talking about, before posting 
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285306 - 05/07/12 01:49 PM
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Indeed but without knowing it probably, he also points what is clear: Those projects are actually one.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285311 - 05/07/12 02:17 PM
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285313 - 05/07/12 02:20 PM
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both projects are built over the same core, they share the same mailing list of developers, and the developers prefer to ship two separate executable and sources for end-users which don't compile by themselves.
how is that a problem, when people capable of compiling a combined exe can already do it?
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285315 - 05/07/12 02:39 PM
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> both projects are built over the same core, they share the same mailing list of
> developers, and the developers prefer to ship two separate executable and sources for
> end-users which don't compile by themselves.
>
> how is that a problem, when people capable of compiling a combined exe can already do
> it?
I am not sure how you talk about the whole team. Maybe you CAN talk about the whole team, I don't know. I think there are different voices though.
The problem is EXACTLY for people NOT capable of compiling a combined exe; which btw traditionally face some discrimination in some open source projects. In those projects (and I am not saying MAME is one of those) it is very common to face an almost racist comment "if you want it like that, do it yourself"... well having been on both sides in different phases of my IT life, I don't like that reply.
The problem also is that the way to build the combined exe is not (YET) official. Why? The best (? AFAIK) effort right now comes from a member that (again AFAIK) doesn't have the sympathy of some of the members of the team (for reasons we frankly do not care). This to an outsider (like me) seems like politics and just politics.
Anyway I think I have made my point (thank you for giving me the space to do so): Combined exe is the way to go. At least let it be an (official) option. I am 100% sure that in the end it is going to be the default.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285319 - 05/07/12 02:53 PM
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>> you do know that what you says is *exactly* what MESS already does?
maybe you shall check what you're talking about, before posting
<<
What is it then people who want it "separated" are complaining about?
True, I didn't see much of MESS code, except those terrible "#IFDEF MESS" patches all over MAME source code, that's all I base my assumptions on, glad to stand corrected, but I think that is exactly kind of stuff that should be separated and what people are really complaining about.
>> how is that a problem, when people capable of compiling a combined exe can already do it?
<<
I guess that is the question that needs answering first, what exactly is the problem? I thought "separatists" are complaining about stuff like "#IFDEF MESS" directives mingling with MAME code. If not that, I don't see what else, it's just a matter of compiler options then, as you say, & making it "official" or "more standardized" as NLS says.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285321 - 05/07/12 03:12 PM
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> I am not sure how you talk about the whole team. Maybe you CAN talk about the whole
> team, I don't know. I think there are different voices though.
I'm just reporting the opinion of the majority of the devs as it emerges from the opinion given on the dev list. no more, no less. since we generally proceed by democratic discussions, that becomes the current position of the team.
> The problem is EXACTLY for people NOT capable of compiling a combined exe; which btw
> traditionally face some discrimination in some open source projects. In those
> projects (and I am not saying MAME is one of those) it is very common to face an
> almost racist comment "if you want it like that, do it yourself"... well having been
> on both sides in different phases of my IT life, I don't like that reply.
>
> The problem also is that the way to build the combined exe is not (YET) official.
> Why? The best (? AFAIK) effort right now comes from a member that (again AFAIK)
> doesn't have the sympathy of some of the members of the team (for reasons we frankly
> do not care). This to an outsider (like me) seems like politics and just politics.
no offense, but reasons have been explained many times and if you still think there is politics involved, maybe you shall check these forums as often as you check Haze's blog.
for one, at the moment MAMETesters is not ready to take care of MESS bugs too, so a merging of the exes would harm our best bug tracking resource; for another, current MESS svn is public, while the MAME one is not and there are bandwidth concerns about making the latter public (closing the former is not an option, of course)...
the situation might change in future, but I think for the moment we can ship separate exes with no harm
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285322 - 05/07/12 03:16 PM
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OK, allow me to stand by my original views (of an outsider but emulator fan - I don't claim being something different).
BTW I've heard that actually MAME bug tracking system IS moving towards accepting also MESS reports (also because of a recent crash in MESS's bug tracking system?). Is that info wrong? I don't know, just asking.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285324 - 05/07/12 03:26 PM
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>>
Given that a majority of users (and devs) don't want the combined build, and that it would greatly increase bandwidth costs for MW and our other mirrors, it would be dumb to do it.
<<
If the size is your concern, than main official build should contain no bootlegs, gambling, and maybe even no neo-geo games, just optional at compile time.
Actually, if it was up to me I'd get rid of almost everything... the artwork, bezels, cheats, screenshots, scanlines & HLSLSLHL effects, and anything else that is not ABSOLUTELY necessary just to run the games as the original PCB would. Anything doing more than that I would put in some kind of add-ons, just OPTIONAL to this core MAME.
People working on, say... artwork, will not then be able to screw up already working game drivers. I'd say these things should really be separated from the main core build much more than MESS. MESS should be treated like NEO-GEO.
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| mesk |
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@ the arcade
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285327 - 05/07/12 03:52 PM
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Remove the Neo Geo games? All the artwork as well?Blasphemy! Glad you are not in charge 
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285328 - 05/07/12 04:01 PM
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> OK, allow me to stand by my original views (of an outsider but emulator fan - I don't
> claim being something different).
>
> BTW I've heard that actually MAME bug tracking system IS moving towards accepting
> also MESS reports (also because of a recent crash in MESS's bug tracking system?). Is
> that info wrong? I don't know, just asking.
it's correct and true. and that's one of the reason why I've said that things might change in the future, just not right now
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Shoegazr]
#285333 - 05/07/12 04:23 PM
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> As far as users go, it's split about 50/50 if you are using this thread as a gauge
> (which is only about 10 people anyway - hardly representative).
I do have other inputs, from sites I can't mention here IYKWIMAITYD.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285334 - 05/07/12 04:32 PM
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> I'm just reporting the opinion of the majority of the devs as it emerges from the
> opinion given on the dev list. no more, no less. since we generally proceed by
> democratic discussions, that becomes the current position of the team.
Specifically, devs often incur full builds on a several-times-a-day basis. I have a 4.7 GHz i7 with 8 GB of RAM and that still takes a chunk of time that I'd rather be using to, you know, improve the emulation of the systems. (Never mind that I'd have to go to 16GB to comfortably link a combined project).
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285335 - 05/07/12 04:33 PM
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Is this "statistic" private between you two?
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285337 - 05/07/12 04:35 PM
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8GB extra is like 40 euro?
Just saying.
Also, I've been far from development for some years (I am just a glorified user and clueless IT manager right now), but I am not sure why (I am not saying you are wrong at all! Don't misunderstand me) someone has to make FULL builds every time to debug a specific system. If a module is irrelevant, why it has to be compiled in the day-to-day debug builds? AFAIK MAME does have several compile switches right?
Edited by NLS (05/07/12 04:39 PM)
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| CptGuapo |
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Beat'em-ups Lover
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Re: Combined build
[Re: mesk]
#285340 - 05/07/12 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Remove the Neo Geo games? All the artwork as well?Blasphemy! Glad you are not in charge
LOL! I second that. LazyCat, please, take a cup of coffee, calm down and don't exaggerate. If you insist in that Neo Geo games exclusion idea, you'll suffer... 
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285342 - 05/07/12 04:42 PM
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Look, I'm saying I'm all about choice. We have that right now: if you want all-in-one, you can build all-in-one. It's simply not the default, supported, option. (Supported in the MAMETesters sense; MAMEdev have in fact gone out of our way to make sure the unified build option does work, because we love you and we want you to have the choice).
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CptGuapo]
#285343 - 05/07/12 04:42 PM
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> Remove the Neo Geo games? All the artwork as well?Blasphemy! Glad you are not in
> charge
>
> LOL! I second that. LazyCat, please, take a cup of coffee, calm down and don't
> exaggerate. If you insist in that Neo Geo games exclusion idea, you'll suffer...
LazyCat is almost certainly Abracadabra, if you remember that dude (Haze agrees with this analysis, for those of you who listen to him rather than me ;-) His posts make far more sense through that filter.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285348 - 05/07/12 04:58 PM
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Fair enough, still not a solution for the "common user" (for whom something that is not there in the main site with an .exe extension, doesn't exist at all). It's like you politely told me "well if you like it make it yourself" (and I discussed about that kind of talk above).
I already said it shouldn't be the default (...yet - because in the end I find it inevitable that it WILL be the default, give it a year), fine, but it should be there in the main site, as one of the official builds (and possibly a separate MESS-only build too, but not a separate site and team any more). It's not only that unified would be "better" (in so many levels), it is also that MESS doesn't get any of the "limelight" of MAME project and is a pity - being "embedded" would strengthen it and its "spirit" would live forever through MAME.
Another thing, I am not really sure why the site couldn't handle such a thing (I am saying this because "web load" reason has been discussed above too), since the separate servers used already for the now separate builds could share the load.
Anyway. Thanks again for discussing this whole thing (which I feel was like a taboo some months ago?).
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| mesk |
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@ the arcade
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285349 - 05/07/12 05:06 PM
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I have seen a few people talk about all these benefits to a combined build,NLS,shoegazer.Interestingly enough nobody has actually said what these benefits would be,just that the amount of benefits is ridiculous.
Personally I do not know enough to really care one way or the other @ the moment.The only thing I have read is that a combined build would increase bandwidth usage and that is never a good thing for a site that runs on donations
Anyways I am curious as to what these benefits are,and just how they would be a advantage to the average end user.To those opposed to a combined build,same question to you. 
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285351 - 05/07/12 05:07 PM
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Putting MAME and MESS in the same basket is against the nature laws; You know : Survival of the fittest - MAME will eat MESS for breakfast, but then again, the very next moment MAME will die by poisoning from MESS rotten ingredients.
So, at the end of Your experiment (mixing oil & water), as a final product we will get 2 corpses instead of 1 health grown up man (MAME) and 1 messy but promising child (MESS).
Obviously I am against this "so called" unity because marriage(unity) without love would not last long.
That is what I think on this subject as a emulation fan, no hard feelings.
P.S. Mechanical games are cancer in MAMEs health body and I hope that relevant people will realize/see that disease before it's too late. Anyway, it's another subject. (but anyhow related to this thread)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: mesk]
#285353 - 05/07/12 05:08 PM
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> Remove the Neo Geo games? All the artwork as well?Blasphemy! Glad you are not in
> charge
I understand your reason, let me explain mine.
I think MAME core should be handled like the development of Linux kernel - modular, or "Object Oriented" if you will, where adding support for artwork would a simple matter like adding network support to some Linux distribution.
One core, many distributions and flavors for everyone's taste. The main point of this design and development scheme is that everyone should be able to easily make (compile) their own distribution (MAME build) by simply enabling or disabling these add-on features at compile time, only I would separate code completely instead of use #IFDEF or anything like that. What you really need in any case is a just a good compiler front-end which should be no harder to use than say MAME .ini file, that's all.
The most import benefit of such modular design is independence of one piece of code from another and self-contained functionality, which makes for many little "Objects" that can be re-designed, re-written and optimized without having impact to other parts of the code. This means that particular people with particular skills would be able to concentrate on specific things without unrelated stuff obscuring the code or standing in a way for better implementation. Smaller independent chunks of code, like game drivers, are much easier to re-write, optimize and maybe most importantly *test* , as you can do it in small steps and independently of everything else. Each module itself, including core MAME, would become easier to improve and changes to any of these separate modules (add-on features) could not possibly have any impact on how actual game drivers or other modules work.
Does that sounds better?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285354 - 05/07/12 05:12 PM
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Guess what? It already is. Drivers can be EASILY removed before compilation. There's no point in separating drivers out into, say, DLL files post-compilation. RAM usage wouldn't change, CPU usage wouldn't change.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285359 - 05/07/12 05:23 PM
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>>
LazyCat is almost certainly Abracadabra, if you remember that dude (Haze agrees with this analysis, for those of you who listen to him rather than me ;-) His posts make far more sense through that filter.
<<
I said kind of the same thing as you did, we are on the same side here, only I personally would be much more extreme than you, that's all, and I think it's for good reason which I explained above. Do we really disagree?
It's about options and choices, and it should be, the only thing that is missing is just some voting system, so majority can decide. Right?
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Re: Ninja Assassin MAME devs
[Re: LazyCat]
#285360 - 05/07/12 05:26 PM
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A brief reminder that MAME is a not-necessarily-benevolent dictatorship run by a cabal of highly trained ninja assassin arcade game-playing fanatics.
Remember all those stories about how playing videogames will make you violent and murderous? The MAME devs are what you get at the end of that road.
Do. Not. Cross. Them.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285361 - 05/07/12 05:29 PM
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> P.S. Mechanical games are cancer in MAMEs health body and I hope that relevant people
> will realize/see that disease before it's too late. Anyway, it's another subject.
> (but anyhow related to this thread)
just ignore those sets. nobody put a gun at your head to force you into launching them.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285363 - 05/07/12 05:37 PM
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> Guess what? It already is. Drivers can be EASILY removed before compilation. There's
> no point in separating drivers out into, say, DLL files post-compilation. RAM usage
> wouldn't change, CPU usage wouldn't change.
I was not talking about separating drivers, they are already separated. I was talking about scanlines, artwork, bezels, cheats, save states... anything that is not necessary to reproduce what actual PCB does, it's called "emulation".
HLSLSHL effects, bezels and stuff like that is not what PCBs do, it's what monitors made of glass do and what cabinets made of wood do, that's not "emulation", it's "simulation".
You have to decide is core MAME about documenting electronic s (PCBs) and emulation, or is it about simulation and documenting monitor quirks and cabinet decoration. I think core MAME shold be only about emulation and not about simulation, which is welcome addition, but is sufficient to be optional rather then default for all the reasons I mentioned in the post above.
Also MESS is not separated from MAME completely as it could be, like Pacman driver is. All these things I say could be separated from MAME core just like game drivers are.
Edited by LazyCat (05/07/12 05:45 PM)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285367 - 05/07/12 05:46 PM
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No, emulation is simply more than just the board for arcade machines.
It's as accurately representing the actual game state as much as possible. Thus why things such as MAMEHooker are supported, such as they are, by the MAME devs.
Some games actually REQUIRE the artwork to be functional, as well-- Spy Hunter has five separate lit pieces of artwork detailing car status, for instance.
On top of that, some games may have been designed to take into account glass curvature or other effects of the beam, making HLSL the choice for getting more accurate output.
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285368 - 05/07/12 05:49 PM
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>
> just ignore those sets. nobody put a gun at your head to force you into launching
> them.
I can do that, but how would You react if You know (hypothetical) that there is a cancer in Your body ?
1. Ignore it...
...or
2 Remove it.
I would go with 2.
Just my two cents.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285370 - 05/07/12 05:55 PM
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You take this way too seriously.
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285372 - 05/07/12 06:00 PM
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MAME is a serious project !
OK, I will calm down - maybe should not take so radical example, but this is only a discussion about ours beloved emulator and I mentioned before :
CTOJAH said : No hard feelings.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285375 - 05/07/12 06:07 PM
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> I think MAME core should be handled like the development of Linux kernel - modular,
> or "Object Oriented" if you will, where adding support for artwork would a simple
> matter like adding network support to some Linux distribution.
If you look at what MAMEdev's actually shipping, you'll see that we've been converting the entire codebase from fake OO with macros to real OO in real C++ over the last 2 years. MESS is actually farther ahead on this than MAME, but the core is ready in either case. This has enabled a whole slew of good things to happen, including the combined build under discussion and much better separation between chip emulations and drivers.
And just like the Linux kernel, we reserve the right to change the API and ABI any time it makes sense to, lest anyone get any dumb ideas about subjecting users to drivers-as-DLLs.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285376 - 05/07/12 06:09 PM
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> MAME is a serious project !
No, it really isn't. Or at least I don't take it anywhere near that seriously. As per my devquote, emulating old games is not the cure for cancer, so let's not treat them as equivalent
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| DrArcade |
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AKA Mr. CAST
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285377 - 05/07/12 06:10 PM
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> >
> > just ignore those sets. nobody put a gun at your head to force you into launching
> > them.
>
> I can do that, but how would You react if You know (hypothetical) that there is a
> cancer in Your body ?
> 1. Ignore it...
> ...or
> 2 Remove it.
> I would go with 2.
> Just my two cents.
LOL, Mechanical games in MAME = Cancer. Damn near spit coffee all over my monitor.
Where do I submit documention for RLG's (Real Life Games)? Ring Toss, Horse Shoes, Badminton.. I want to watch the cancer metastasize, in the true sense of preservation. 
Mr. CAST
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285378 - 05/07/12 06:11 PM
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Agreed, but preserving old games is better than preserving old movies in some cases IMSHO.
I.E., depends on the game being preserved vs the movie being preserved.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285385 - 05/07/12 07:13 PM
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Funny you should mention the drivers-as-DLLs thing. I actually had considered bringing it up as a particularly bad idea, but decided not to mention it for the sake of not giving anyone horrific ideas.
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| mesk |
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@ the arcade
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285387 - 05/07/12 07:20 PM
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> P.S. Mechanical games are cancer in MAMEs health body and I hope that relevant people
> will realize/see that disease before it's too late. Anyway, it's another subject.
> (but anyhow related to this thread)
Do they really bother you that much? Personally I really dont even notice them,granted I use Hyperspin the majority of the time and those games do not appear in my wheel since they were simply removed from the HS XML,I also use QMC2 I guess I just dont notice them. 
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| CTOJAH |
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MAME Addict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: mesk]
#285391 - 05/07/12 07:25 PM
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>
> Do they really bother you that much? Personally I really dont even notice
> them,granted I use Hyperspin the majority of the time and those games do not appear
> in my wheel since they were simply removed from the HS XML,I also use QMC2 I guess I
> just dont notice them.
You already answered to Yourself ! (look at the underlined text)
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285392 - 05/07/12 07:27 PM
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Man you are way too harsh to progress. Maybe this is why you like retro?
Cancer, rotting, dead bodies... come on.
You are a very radical "against" person, without realistic arguments though (at least for 2012). No offence.
BTW all these actually make me believe we are actually moving towards that merge. :P
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Re: Combined build
[Re: mesk]
#285393 - 05/07/12 07:31 PM
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I'm neither, but bandwidth is expensive and this site is having financial issues, so I don't see a need to make bad things worse.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: greybeard]
#285394 - 05/07/12 07:37 PM
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> I'm neither, but bandwidth is expensive and this site is having financial issues, so
> I don't see a need to make bad things worse.
Guys this is no real argument, come on.
In such a change, MESS site would actually share the bandwidth.
Also nobody forces nobody download from the master servers.
Most modern sites that give out some important piece of software have alternative download sources.
There could be use of file sharing services. Most (if not all) Linux distros etc. come out as torrents too.
This thing about bandwidth is a non issue.
(because there is no real issue to be found maybe? :P)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285395 - 05/07/12 07:39 PM
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>>
It's as accurately representing the actual game state as much as possible. Thus why things such as MAMEHooker are supported, such as they are, by the MAME devs.
Some games actually REQUIRE the artwork to be functional, as well-- Spy Hunter has five separate lit pieces of artwork detailing car status, for instance.
<<
Ok, when you say "game state" you mean whole cabinet, I mean just PCB. It's because I wanna play it in a cabinet and you wanna play it on a PC.
You make a good point and yes it's nice to have it all done "digitally", it's just that I believe you should preserve "wood" by restoring wood, and restore PCB by replacing it with PC, so that PC needs to do only what original PCB did.
In any case I am not suggesting to remove these features, just separate their source code from the main core build, make it more like some "plug-in", move it from run-time to be compile-time only options in order to make it easier for the development and is overall better design for such huge & public project, I believe.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285397 - 05/07/12 07:44 PM
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Too many cabinet types out there, and MAME is a project to preserve what it can. Believe me, if MAME didn't do artwork, a lot of it would have been lost by now.
The entire MAME concept is to make it preservable on pretty much any platform that might happen in the future. That means computers, tablets, even consoles if you're so inclined to port it (SDLMAME on PS3 Linux). Removing that functionality to modules does nothing more than to increase the complexity of the codebase for zero real gain.
You, as a user, would save probably 10k off the binary.
MAMEdev would gain about three extra bleeding ulcers maintaining it as a module when it's part of what they consider the core *meaning* of the project.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285398 - 05/07/12 07:46 PM
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The compilation time IS an issue, but could be worked around in SOME cases by using tiny builds-- still, when you're ready to put out a final release, that might require several trial runs with minor tweaks as errors crop up in the final compilation of everything together. (Not to mention the RAM usage..)
While I believe that EVENTUALLY they'll probably end up in one binary together, that's likely to only happen when the impact to actually compiling the thing is less to the developers.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285399 - 05/07/12 07:47 PM
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>> If you look at what MAMEdev's actually shipping, you'll see that we've been converting the entire codebase from fake OO with macros to real OO in real C++ over the last 2 years. MESS is actually farther ahead on this than MAME, but the core is ready in either case. This has enabled a whole slew of good things to happen, including the combined build under discussion and much better separation between chip emulations and drivers.
<<
I see Aaron's re-write of drawgfx, it's finally free of that self recursing noodle soup, but looking a bit more into the whole re-write thing I see some kind of pointless effort to make MAME "modern" (for some future OS, as Derrick says). You know, having 17 bits precision stored in 32 bits based on funny assumption it might become "standard", one day. Kind of stuff I'd call "unnecessary bloat".
So, anyway, are you saying all the #IFDEFs are going to be gone? MESS actually separated to its own files rather than mingling within MAME core? If so, I applaud that and I'd be glad to help, just shine the sign up in the sky.
By the way, I've sent you link to my Android MAME build, you have to try "Crazy Scoreboard" and "Crazy Tilt"... super-cool, if I may say so.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285400 - 05/07/12 08:00 PM
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> The compilation time IS an issue, but could be worked around in SOME cases by using
> tiny builds-- still, when you're ready to put out a final release, that might require
> several trial runs with minor tweaks as errors crop up in the final compilation of
> everything together. (Not to mention the RAM usage..)
>
> While I believe that EVENTUALLY they'll probably end up in one binary together,
> that's likely to only happen when the impact to actually compiling the thing is less
> to the developers.
Good point. For me to fight I mean.
So you say that the actual compile time of the final build must be... an issue that is strong enough to actually count against the universal binary?
Erm... sorry I don't see it.
PLUS, I suspect that building MAME + building MESS is actually longer than building universal. Because some do that. Remember the head of the MAME team is the head of MESS team right now... I suspect, it would be faster for him too...
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285402 - 05/07/12 08:09 PM
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Well, RB insinuates pretty directly in http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1 that the actual development compiles take significantly longer -- at least longer enough that it's cutting into actual work time without getting a major upgrade.
Remember, this project is on a volunteer basis. Things that are going to make the codemonkeys require newer hardware for a non-paid project are likely to be shelved. Especially in this economy, demanding things that are going to be serious inconveniences to the devs aren't going to be taken with less than an entire bucket of salt.
That'd probably be the biggest reason right now. It's simply too much of a pain at the moment. Nobody ever said it's going to be like this forever, mind. There may be a complete change of attitude on it in another three years.
Or putting it down to the absolute simplest equation:
*THIS* is a bad time to force such a changeover.
While I actually SUPPORT the idea of flat-out merging the two as a single release, I believe that it's a long term goal at best and not really a great idea for the moment.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285407 - 05/07/12 09:15 PM
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> > As far as users go, it's split about 50/50 if you are using this thread as a gauge
> > (which is only about 10 people anyway - hardly representative).
>
> I do have other inputs, from sites I can't mention here IYKWIMAITYD.
I actually don't care if the binaries will be merged or not, but I see obvious benefits in merging the source tree.
So I think I can be classified as pro merging (if you guys are measuring the public opinion).
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285414 - 05/07/12 10:06 PM
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Apparently you haven't seen what we've been doing at all. #ifdef MESS hasn't existed for well over a year now. There is one single object-oriented core. You really think a unified build was possible with #ifdefs?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Ramirez]
#285415 - 05/07/12 10:09 PM
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> I actually don't care if the binaries will be merged or not, but I see obvious
> benefits in merging the source tree.
In case I haven't been clear enough about this: the source tree is being merged. That isn't even a debate.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285416 - 05/07/12 10:12 PM
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> So you say that the actual compile time of the final build must be... an issue that
> is strong enough to actually count against the universal binary?
Yes. One of the reasons nobody initially wanted the job after Kale resigned is because it takes many hours to do the builds for release.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285418 - 05/07/12 10:19 PM
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> Or putting it down to the absolute simplest equation:
>
> *THIS* is a bad time to force such a changeover.
>
> While I actually SUPPORT the idea of flat-out merging the two as a single release, I
> believe that it's a long term goal at best and not really a great idea for the
> moment.
I on the other hand believe we have already come a long way to finally arrive at this goal.
Think of the state of things last year (in the two teams). Think of the available cheap hardware right now (I even said about the 40 euro an additional 8GB for the 8GB Belmont's machine - AND I AM GREEK!).
I think we are there and if we are not, we are not three years away. Six months at most.
(quote me when I fail)
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285420 - 05/07/12 10:26 PM
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> > So you say that the actual compile time of the final build must be... an issue that
> > is strong enough to actually count against the universal binary?
>
> Yes. One of the reasons nobody initially wanted the job after Kale resigned is
> because it takes many hours to do the builds for release.
Of course you are the expert.
So how many hours is the build as is now?
How many hours is MESS to compile on same machine? (from same tree, so clean whatever is related to MAME)
How many hours a combined build?
Asking so that I will know.
Also asking you as the expert.
How many times a COMPLETE build is needed between releases?
Why?
Why this cannot be substituted by "sub-builds" (with many or most modules that are untouched in the release, disabled) and only do the final build once?
(and I believe that is what you guys do anyway...?)
Finally asking you as the member of the team.
What would drastically improve compilation time? Stronger CPU? A second CPU? More RAM?
RAM is a non-issue nowadays. I have three machines and 20GB RAM total in my home and I am a middle class GREEK (you know what is happening here aren't you).
In any case asking the member of the team...
If someone is responsible for the builds (or even more than one person), how hard is it to raise a fund to pay for the extra hardware needed? We are not talking for four figures here (ok maybe close). I think it is something that IS doable (IF it is so much an issue). I've seen fund raising here before for PCBs (EXPENSIVE), for domain registrations and hosting etc. So... is it REALLY an issue?
Thank you for any feedback on the above.
Edited by NLS (05/07/12 10:34 PM)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285422 - 05/07/12 10:45 PM
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> > I actually don't care if the binaries will be merged or not, but I see obvious
> > benefits in merging the source tree.
>
> In case I haven't been clear enough about this: the source tree is being merged. That
> isn't even a debate.
Don't worry, you was clear enough. That was me saying that I'm exited about it.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: R. Belmont]
#285437 - 05/07/12 11:19 PM
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>> Apparently you haven't seen what we've been doing at all. #ifdef MESS hasn't existed for well over a year now. There is one single object-oriented core. You really think a unified build was possible with #ifdefs?
<<
Ay, caramba! That's what I've been doing in my build for the last year too. What a terrible synchronization, my mistake.
I guess I missed out quite a bit then... errr, what "unified build" means? In summary what's the biggest change?
>> In case I haven't been clear enough about this: the source tree is being merged. That isn't even a debate.
<<
I think people are talking about two different things while thinking to be talking about the same thing.
a.) separation/merge of source code
b.) separation/merge of the binaries
Someone should summarize what each of those really mean and what kind of difference it makes to end-users and developers.
For example, I don't care about binaries at all, even simple console script (.BAT) can be made to make it all very easy to compile and build whatever binary someone might wish, with neo-geo, maybe just some individual games, with bootlegs, with MESS, mechanical, gambling, mahjong... or without.
I do care about source code separation/merge. I don't wanna see any Artwork, Pacman or MESS related stuff in core input, core timing or core video handling module.
In other words, I want to see MESS source tree merged, but I also want MESS code in it's own separate files. Are we on the same frequency here?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285441 - 05/07/12 11:24 PM
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I think mech games should be left out as I always looked at them as a nusance.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: jumpmaniac81]
#285448 - 05/07/12 11:37 PM
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> I think mech games should be left out as I always looked at them as a nusance.
Left out from what? Source code, binary?
The point is to make compiler "front-end", which would be easy to use, as easy is to configure MAME at run-time, possibly simpler.
Linux kernel does it with a simple console script where all you have to do is just check or uncheck some check-boxes and press [compile] button. Don't wanna mech, neo-geo or MESS, uncheck the box! Simple as that.
Then you do not care about what is in the source tree, you simply make your own build with or without any feature you want or do not want. The end, eh?
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285454 - 05/08/12 12:07 AM
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> I think people are talking about two different things while thinking to be talking about
> the same thing.
> a.) separation/merge of source code
> b.) separation/merge of the binaries
I am talking about #b - because #a is already "almost there" AFAIK.
And since mechanical, mahjong, gambling etc. were mentioned too, I support that the official release builds have EVERYTHING on. MAME is not an ethics school (like the old ban of gambling machines), it is EMULATION software. It is a matter of others to do a possible separation...
The simplest separation is any front-end and even stock build UI and console switches. No need for separate builds, just make on/off mode switches or the functionality ALL front-ends already have, folder filters (version filters, cpu type filters, adult filters, whatever filters... so add more filters "mame", "mess", "mechanical", "mahjong").
More "specific to a task" separations a matter of 3rd party compilers. For example someone might like mahjong ONLY... Make a mahjongmame from the source and release it, who cares. Or... a mess only build. :P Or an old-school-mame-only build. :P
I don't get all this separation of the core project personally.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285466 - 05/08/12 12:55 AM
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>> And since mechanical, mahjong, gambling etc. were mentioned too, I support that the official release builds have EVERYTHING on. MAME is not an ethics school (like the old ban of gambling machines), it is EMULATION software.
<<
You seem unaware of how easy it already is to compile MAME, and how much more simpler yet with more options can be made. That's what changes everything.
MAME should not even release any binaries. What are you making issue about is just a bunch of options set as default, or not. Just a bunch of check-boxes that needs to be checked or unchecked. I'd set them all to unchecked by default, so that "official build", or better to say "default build" you can make with "official compiler" is the smallest size of all.
It should be about "official compiler" and "official source code", not about "official binary". Official binary you get by using official compiler and official source code, no matter what game drivers or extra features you exclude.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285485 - 05/08/12 03:25 AM
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It's entirely up to the comfort zone of the MAME development team is what I've really been getting at. They will choose to move at the pace they're comfortable with.
Honestly, you come across as somewhat badgering on this particular point. While I agree that a full build is probably a logical step forward, it's OBVIOUS to me that this is entirely outside the comfort zone of the team right now. Even more so with RB's admission that the team actually balked at picking a leader over the compilation headache.
That's more than a minor issue, that's the kind of issue that could actually *stop the MAME project cold* at this juncture.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285516 - 05/08/12 07:28 AM
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I have a great Combined build that I'm using right now!
It consists of 2 self compiled official binaries paired up with QMC2 Front End and I make use of the MAME/MESS switcher.
User is happy and MAMEDev/MESSDev is happy
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285519 - 05/08/12 08:09 AM
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how many question are you still going to ask?
> Why this cannot be substituted by "sub-builds" (with many or most modules that are
> untouched in the release, disabled) and only do the final build once?
> (and I believe that is what you guys do anyway...?)
because if you don't build the whole tree, you could break some dependence (e.g. of a different driver from the one you're working on, which shares some components) and doing so you could stop some other devs' work. and checking over and over which components are interconnected takes sometimes as much time as compiling the complete tree from scratch.
verifying that everything compiles fine before a commit is mandatory (things already break this way from time to time, due to e.g a single .h file missing to be updated, without adding more entropy)
also, most of the complains were about building time of the maintainer before a release: you do realize that before every release the maintainer compiles baseline, debug, SDL and (when applicable) MSVC builds to be sure that everything compiles fine and only after that packaging a release? add the times you have to fix a compile and start from scratch, and maybe you will start to understand the magnitude of time we are talking about
> If someone is responsible for the builds (or even more than one person), how hard is
> it to raise a fund to pay for the extra hardware needed?
because this is not a job. taking care of releases should not be an obligation due to people having paid for that, or it would get very close to obligations towards paying clients at work
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285526 - 05/08/12 09:25 AM
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For end-user, compiling GNU C/C++ based projects is the same thing as installing software on Windows, just instead of pressing "install" button you type "make", and that's how user "installs" software. Easy.
MAME should not release any official binaries, just make sure it's easy for the end user to compile their custom build where they can exclude all those games and features they do not want.
Why make yourself a problem with releasing any binaries when you can leave the problem to end-user, which will not be a problem at all if you make it simple enough, it would be very universal solution.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285530 - 05/08/12 10:07 AM
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> You seem unaware of how easy it already is to compile MAME, and how much more simpler yet
> with more options can be made. That's what changes everything.
> MAME should not even release any binaries. What are you making issue about is just a bunch
> of options set as default, or not. Just a bunch of check-boxes that needs to be checked or
> unchecked. I'd set them all to unchecked by default, so that "official build", or better
> to say "default build" you can make with "official compiler" is the smallest size of all.
> It should be about "official compiler" and "official source code", not about "official
> binary". Official binary you get by using official compiler and official source code, no
> matter what game drivers or extra features you exclude.
Ah! We are now (back) to "do it yourself". So you are honestly saying that every "plain user" should setup his own compilation environment to build their own breed executable? Oh come on.
BTW, I would love for all builders out there that it is indeed a simple procedure. Seems they contradict you though, saying about weird dependencies (people that are not active in the development may not know about), huge build time etc.
Hmmm... Let all open source projects stop making executables for users whadayathink? Let executables be mystical products only for the initiated. :P
Jokes aside, I don't think your point is very valid (at least as a general policy). I hope devs will not take it seriously.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Firehawke]
#285531 - 05/08/12 10:09 AM
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> It's entirely up to the comfort zone of the MAME development team is what I've really
> been getting at. They will choose to move at the pace they're comfortable with.
>
> Honestly, you come across as somewhat badgering on this particular point. While I
> agree that a full build is probably a logical step forward, it's OBVIOUS to me that
> this is entirely outside the comfort zone of the team right now. Even more so with
> RB's admission that the team actually balked at picking a leader over the compilation
> headache.
>
> That's more than a minor issue, that's the kind of issue that could actually *stop
> the MAME project cold* at this juncture.
That on the other hand is a valid point (although I wouldn't go that far as to believe that a project like MAME could ever stop cold). Since team devs are not comfortable with this yet, I cannot say much more. I guess I'll wait until they are comfortable.
(which I don't think will be in three years)
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285532 - 05/08/12 10:15 AM
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> how many question are you still going to ask?
Is there a set limit? I think you are giving out useful info.
> > Why this cannot be substituted by "sub-builds" (with many or most modules that are
> > untouched in the release, disabled) and only do the final build once?
> > (and I believe that is what you guys do anyway...?)
>
> because if you don't build the whole tree, you could break some dependence (e.g. of a
> different driver from the one you're working on, which shares some components) and
> doing so you could stop some other devs' work. and checking over and over which
> components are interconnected takes sometimes as much time as compiling the complete
> tree from scratch.
Clear. Also means that there is need to be some more restructuring to make it more oo and modular? (which AFAIK MAME takes pride that IS like that already)
> also, most of the complains were about building time of the maintainer before a
> release: you do realize that before every release the maintainer compiles baseline,
> debug, SDL and (when applicable) MSVC builds to be sure that everything compiles fine
> and only after that packaging a release? add the times you have to fix a compile and
> start from scratch, and maybe you will start to understand the magnitude of time we
> are talking about
Also clear, still I am curious to read real numbers on a typical machine.
> > If someone is responsible for the builds (or even more than one person), how hard
> is
> > it to raise a fund to pay for the extra hardware needed?
>
> because this is not a job. taking care of releases should not be an obligation due to
> people having paid for that, or it would get very close to obligations towards paying
> clients at work
Of course this is not a job. I see what you are saying. Funding some better hardware I don't think crosses the line though in obligating someone (that already IS doing THIS part).
As a general comment personally I think this thread is becoming a great read on the whole subject of merging. Maybe something to revisit sooner or later. (hopefully sooner)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285535 - 05/08/12 11:16 AM
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>>
Ah! We are now (back) to "do it yourself". So you are honestly saying that every "plain user" should setup his own compilation environment to build their own breed executable? Oh come on.
<<
I know just the fact you need to type something in the console makes you not wanna do it, that's why I propose there be "compiler front-end" so it all looks exactly like some standard software installation on Windows. You simply check or un-check the options you want and click the start button.
Would you not prefer to have that freedom of choice to make your own build with whatever features you wish at any time you want? It would be no more complicated than installing say Microsoft Word, it would only last longer, I guess, but in turn you could have it optimized for your particular processor. Does that sound better?
>> Seems they contradict you though, saying about weird dependencies (people that are not active in the development may not know about), huge build time etc.
<<
All I know is that at the end there surely must not be any problems with compilation, otherwise the build is simply not ready for the release. For *END-USER* compilation must always work if using official compiler and official source code, even across various operating systems. That's not a problem, that's what MAME is already good at, just needs some more user-friendliness, that's all.
>> Hmmm... Let all open source projects stop making executables for users whadayathink?
<<
Yeah, that's exactly what most of them actually do, especially ones that strive to be cross-platform portable since that's the most universal type of software distribution there can be. Perhaps lately the trend has become to release binaries too, but that's not for the benefit of the user, it's for their laziness, and in return they get less than optimal build for their particular system and needs.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285536 - 05/08/12 11:34 AM
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Well interesting twist of the original thread.
Actually if I call myself a plain user (no problem to do that), I would be one of the less uncomfortable (or more comfortable, to eliminated the double negative) to do compiles myself. Check my registration date here. I was a dev (not for MAME) in my early days and after all I started when computers were 8 bit and one of my vacation hobbies (ok just during evening sleep of the rest of the family - I am not THAT a geek) was to write BASIC ON PAPER (no portables back then). Interestingly enough most didn't even need debugging back when typed on the computer. Anyway... point is that even for me, what you suggest is not a realistic solution.
Most plain users even with a friendly GUI will not even touch something that needs re-compile for every update. 99.5% of them will prefer the drop-in-place exe. Imagine if all software was like that! For people coming from Linux of course this way is more common (BUT REMEMBER BUILD ENVIRONMENT IS ALREADY PART OF THE OS SETUP) still even there, it is a dying trend. Even if it becomes as easy as installing Office (you see I make it easier than installing Windows that you say), I don't think we could convince anyone reinstall Office with the rate MAME builds come out. It is unrealistic.
Personally I would prefer a 10% or 20% slow down of betas, if official merged build was there. (everybody talks for himself of course)
Only way I would "stomach" a user-re-compile for every update would be if it was a transparent part of a very smart installer. (which btw should also support UNC paths as my whole emulation is on a huge share :P) I think this is a big project BY ITSELF. (much simpler than just providing universal-all-enabled exe I think)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285540 - 05/08/12 01:59 PM
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It's all the same to me, the only practical issue here seem to be just bandwidth then. Binaries-shminaries, I thought this was about source code.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285545 - 05/08/12 04:12 PM
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> It's all the same to me, the only practical issue here seem to be just bandwidth
> then. Binaries-shminaries, I thought this was about source code.
All I see here is you're not clearly thinking because:
a) Binaries don't bother you, you compile your own builds.
b) Because of the previous point, whatever mamedevs do with the distribution can't harm or benefit you in any way.
c) You're suggesting to remove set off by default features on a PC emulator intended to work on a PC. Because we know every user using MAME has a PC stored inside a cabinet with an outdated CRT monitor (that was sarcasm).
d) Your elitist thinking would lead to limit MAME to only Linux users owning arcade cabs and NEOGEO PCBs so you don't miss them. AFAIK that's called a custom build and I'm glad you're not in charge too. :P
e) How could be reducing bandwidth distributing the source AND the compiler environment so everyone can make their own custom builds? Let alone wait up to 3 hours (depending on your own machine) to install something smaller than Office. Most users have Windows machines and no compile environments, for every 100 PCs only 5 or less have Linux. You do the math, that's what this trend to release binaries is for.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: BIOS-D]
#285553 - 05/08/12 05:26 PM
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>> a) Binaries don't bother you, you compile your own builds.
<<
From your tone I'm guessing this is a bad thing, can you explain what is your objection really about?
>> b) Because of the previous point, whatever mamedevs do with the distribution can't harm or benefit you in any way.
<<
That's the power of the source code. I don't understand your objection again, what's bad about any of it?
>> c) You're suggesting to remove set off by default features on a PC emulator intended to work on a PC. Because we know every user using MAME has a PC stored inside a cabinet with an outdated CRT monitor (that was sarcasm).
Because of the first point, this too does not bother me. However, if you wanna pretend the purpose of MAME is to accurately document (emulate) arcade games and not for people to play them on their PCs, then perhaps you should not make it obvious you are in fact going extra mile to make it so.
>> d) Your elitist thinking would lead to limit MAME to only Linux users owning arcade cabs and NEOGEO PCBs so you don't miss them. AFAIK that's called a custom build and I'm glad you're not in charge too. :P
Ah, you just feel like arguing. I'm not that radical and there is more reason to my position than you want to give a credit for. In any case I think there should be voting system and majority should decide, even though majority can easily be wrong, but "Vox populi, Vox Dei".
>> e) How could be reducing bandwidth distributing the source AND the compiler environment so everyone can make their own custom builds? Let alone wait up to 3 hours (depending on your own machine) to install something smaller than Office. Most users have Windows machines and no compile environments, for every 100 PCs only 5 or less have Linux. You do the math, that's what this trend to release binaries is for.
<<
There are pros and cons to everything, it's just a matter of individual priorities. Source code you have to distribute in any case and combined with build environment it makes for download that is not much bigger than the binary, if bigger at all.
It's not a problem for me to find 3 hours to spare and let computer do the job while I sleep or go out to buy some drugs, and on drugs time flies. I think your problem could be that you are not using enough drugs.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285567 - 05/08/12 07:00 PM
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> It's not a problem for me to find 3 hours to spare and let computer do the
> job while I sleep or go out to buy some drugs, and on drugs time flies. I
> think your problem could be that you are not using enough drugs.
I'm sorry if my comment sounded rude, that was not the purpose. But the way you argue and counter argue makes it almost obvious your only purpose is to argue, and you'll be doing everything your way doesn't matter what.
If you'll be doing everything as you like, then there's not purpose to argue how MAME developers do their own stuff, right? Maybe you really need to not go into drugs. I do and I think very clear.
Remember when I said less than 5 PCs for every 100 use Linux? I forgot to add those 5 PCs have different Linux distributions fragmenting the user base a hell a lot more. See how successful the way Linux thinks it is (not saying Linux is bad though).
If MAME adds not only arcade PCBs, but anything arcade related it's more than obvious their purpose is to document hardware than playing with them. So removing everything you don't like, as you wish and that doesn't work will make it less obvious for people the emulator is intended to play them on their PCs? That's a wishful thinking.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285568 - 05/08/12 07:00 PM
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Guys I think you moved away from the thread's topic.
The topic is about "combined build" (so it cannot even mean the source, as the source is already more or less one).
Also I think with 10-20 users participating in the thread, a vote would be stupid. Hell even if all EmuChat voted, it wouldn't mean anything. AFAIK thousands use MAME (and maybe 1/10th of them also use MESS - also I hope 1/2 of them KNOW MESS at least).
As a member of the team (?) pointed out, there are some practical issues for this to become reality yet ...that honestly I don't see and I asked more "educated in the subject" people and weirdly enough agree with me, but anyway, the thing is, the devs are the devs and until someone that is a MAME team dev steps up and says "I will handle the unified build and produce it for all major updates", then for us is not much to do. Yelling doesn't help either (I usually tend to be pretty vocal).
I am that close to make a bet that we will start having an official unified build within the next six months, but knowing that there are people that actually push against it (for reasons I am not sure are valid), I will not make that bet.
I'd love more expert opinion from "my" side (I know and you know that at least one voice is not interested to be heard here), but in any case I've done what I can.
(which is not much)
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Re: Combined build
[Re: BIOS-D]
#285581 - 05/08/12 09:06 PM
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>> I'm sorry if my comment sounded rude, that was not the purpose. But the way you argue and counter argue makes it almost obvious your only purpose is to argue, and you'll be doing everything your way doesn't matter what.
<<
I misunderstood for the first half what the discussion is about, but I was not that much off topic and I still hold the reasons behind my proposals are valid. Of course I have to try defend and justify what I proposed if challenged, that's where the logic will either fail or persist, and so far I'm still convinced to be right - according to my own views, priorities and goals.
It's easy to disagree, I prefer to find agreement, but we can not agree no matter if both our logic is valid if our priorities and goals are different. That's where majority vote should make the cut so we always have more happy than angry people, and then all angry people have to do is just take some more drugs. Drugs always solve everything.
>> If you'll be doing everything as you like, then there's not purpose to argue how MAME developers do their own stuff, right?
<<
Right. I wanted to present and explain my opinion, not really to press the issue any more than to make sure I was understood properly, which is when it turned out it is in fact me who didn't understand what others are talking about. What a day!
>> Remember when I said less than 5 PCs for every 100 use Linux? I forgot to add those 5 PCs have different Linux distributions fragmenting the user base a hell a lot more. See how successful the way Linux thinks it is (not saying Linux is bad though).
<<
Linux is irrelevant, the installation file can be "setup.exe", Windows binary file that you run, select your options and press install button, and then the setup unzips the source code and compiler tools from itself and begins compilation. Only fresh compilation lasts long, but if you plan to compile every MAME release then you should keep your source tree, apply only diff patches and the compilation will be done in few seconds.
C'mon, we have computers, we can use them to make complicated things simple for us. Drugs too.
- - - - -
As for the actual topic, I do not see a single benefit or even a reasonable motive to have one big MESS+MAME binary, I only see longer loading times and increased memory usage.
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| Naoki |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285587 - 05/08/12 09:45 PM
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How about you think about other people. The amount of "I hate this so it should be removed" I've seen on this one thread is amazing. People thinking only about themselves. If you want them removed, download the source and remove it from YOUR OWN BUILD and quit moaning. I'm not saying I like or even care about the mech games, but damn, you don't hear me whining how I believe it should be removed, I just shrug my shoulders and move on. It isn't like it's the end of the world.
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| mesk |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: CTOJAH]
#285589 - 05/08/12 10:11 PM
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They are only removed cause they do not work.I also use QMC2 and do not have them filtered out.Not sure if QMC has added that feature yet.
Anyways even though they dont really bother me,I understand how they may bother others.We all have our own little issues,or things that bother us
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285592 - 05/08/12 10:19 PM
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> For end-user, compiling GNU C/C++ based projects is the same thing as installing
> software on Windows, just instead of pressing "install" button you type "make", and
> that's how user "installs" software. Easy.
>
> MAME should not release any official binaries, just make sure it's easy for the end
> user to compile their custom build where they can exclude all those games and
> features they do not want.
>
> Why make yourself a problem with releasing any binaries when you can leave the
> problem to end-user, which will not be a problem at all if you make it simple enough,
> it would be very universal solution.
Although the result would be very 90s-ish, I understand this sentiment. Yet....a factor in the life of MAME is the user base (the devs like that, and want, people to use it), and it would dramatically drop if the average person had to build it every time. I know I wouldn't, and Headkaze's compile utility is pretty easy to use.
For me to chime in on this topic means it's that close to a clusterfuck. Give it a rest, yo.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285607 - 05/08/12 10:47 PM
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I'm all for there being a combined MAME and MESS build.
If you want me to give some reasons, I can come up with two.
First reason comes out of one of the responses from etabeta to NLS.
As etabeta writes, "sub-builds" are not possible because,
"if you don't build the whole tree, you could break some dependence".
However, this also means using the now unified source tree to build
the "sub-build" MAME could break some dependence for MESS.
This means building and releasing MAME separate from MESS causes
extra work needed to be done when it comes to releasing MESS.
Releasing both as a unified build would mean developing both together
and catching that breakage when it happens.
Second, it doesn't look good if MAME is not able to provide a unified
build while at the same time you can find it at the blog of an
independent developer.
As to whether or not it should have everything, pinball and poker
machines, I think it should have what MAME and MESS has combined.
What that is, should of course be up to the devs.
Go MAME!
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Naoki]
#285621 - 05/08/12 11:28 PM
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>> ...download the source and remove it from YOUR OWN BUILD and quit moaning.
<<
Depends on how simple it is. If you could make such build just by typing, say: "make -no-mech"
...then your comment would be fair, but if it's not that simple then moaning seem fair too, because it can be that simple and then everyone could be happy. So it turns out it's the moaning that leads to improvement, while resignation leads to stagnation.
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Never mind
[Re: etabeta]
#285624 - 05/08/12 11:41 PM
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It just works..didn't think it would work. 
S
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285626 - 05/08/12 11:49 PM
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>>
Depends on how simple it is. If you could make such build just by typing, say: "make -no-mech"
...then your comment would be fair, but if it's not that simple then moaning seem fair too, because it can be that simple and then everyone could be happy. So it turns out it's the moaning that leads to improvement, while resignation leads to stagnation.
<<
Stop being lazy and selfish. You have all in your hands to make your own build without the games you don't like.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Mbit]
#285629 - 05/08/12 11:57 PM
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>> First reason comes out of one of the responses from etabeta to NLS. As etabeta writes, "sub-builds" are not possible because, "if you don't build the whole tree, you could break some dependence".
<<
That's not a reason. Reason must have purpose to serve, goal to achieve. Your goal is to make combined build, and the reason is: you have to make combined build if you wanna make combined build. Your reason and the goal are the same, so it's non-sense, you have to tell us why do you want to make a combined build in the first place, what purpose "combined build" is supposed to serve?
>> Second, it doesn't look good if MAME is not able to provide a unified build while at the same time you can find it at the blog of an independent developer.
<<
What purpose is that reason supposed to serve?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Ramirez]
#285632 - 05/09/12 12:11 AM
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>> Stop being lazy and selfish. You have all in your hands to make your own build without the games you don't like.
<<
Why selfish? I actually wanna make it simple for everyone.
It's not simple to make custom build. There is some "tiny.mak" file which is supposed to serve the purpose, but I doubt even the guy who invented and design it could say that thing is easy to use.
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| redk9258 |
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285634 - 05/09/12 12:18 AM
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Why in the fuck would you want to put users through all of that shit (setup.exe), when you can just decompress the exe file and run it? It works fine the way it is... either as MAME, MESS or combined. If you want fucked up custom builds, then YOU change the source code and build it yourself. Nothing that is 'extra' in MAME causes any problems. If you don't want to use artwork, etc., just don't use any.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285635 - 05/09/12 12:25 AM
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> >> First reason comes out of one of the responses from etabeta to NLS. As etabeta
> writes, "sub-builds" are not possible because, "if you don't build the whole tree,
> you could break some dependence".
> <
> Your goal is to make combined build, and the reason is: you have to make combined
> build if you wanna make combined build. Your reason and the goal are the same, so
> it's non-sense, you have to tell us why do you want to make a combined build in the
> first place, what purpose "combined build" is supposed to serve?>>
I think that the confusion is that the original poster is suggesting that providing combined builds would help to ensure that changes in the source tree that were MAME or MESS specific would compile for both MAME and MESS build flavors. Thus the goal to achieve is greater robustness of the MAME/MESS code by testing combined builds more frequently.
That being said, I don't think the original poster realizes that combined builds are probably already tested in this way regularly, they're just not provided as downloadable, pre-built executables on the official download sites because of the other reasons pointed out in this thread.
So the goal, while commendable, is not likely to be furthered by combined builds.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#285637 - 05/09/12 12:56 AM
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> That being said, I don't think the original poster realizes that combined builds are
> probably already tested in this way regularly, they're just not provided as
> downloadable, pre-built executables on the official download sites because of the
> other reasons pointed out in this thread.
Well if that is true, then most of not all of "the other reasons pointed out" are >NULL.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#285647 - 05/09/12 02:47 AM
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>> I think that the confusion is that the original poster is suggesting that providing combined builds would help to ensure that changes in the source tree that were MAME or MESS specific would compile for both MAME and MESS build flavors. Thus the goal to achieve is greater robustness of the MAME/MESS code by testing combined builds more frequently.
<<
It still sounds like self-serving purpose. "Robustness" is too vague term, not sure what practical benefit is supposed to be and why is "increased robustness" desired in the first place. The more parts something has it becomes easier for it to fall apart, so I don't think MAME & MESS can possibly be more robust combined than separated.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: redk9258]
#285648 - 05/09/12 02:59 AM
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>> Why in the fuck would you want to put users through all of that shit (setup.exe), when you can just decompress the exe file and run it?
<<
You didn't read it properly. I said both *source code* and compiler can be distributed inside Windows binary, so to make it appear to user as simple as if they are installing some standard Windows application, while in fact when they press a button instead of installation there would be compilation.
The reason is that this would give everyone the kind of build they want, plus the build could be optimized for their particular CPU. Of course for this to work we first have to automatize "tiny.mak" thing or come up with some other method.
>> It works fine the way it is... either as MAME, MESS or combined. If you want fucked up custom builds, then YOU change the source code and build it yourself.
<<
I did not ask you to do anything for me. It seems pretty obvious everyone here would get rid of mech and mahjong, at least, if they could, so the option to make custom builds and reduce the size of the binary seem far more desirable than adding MESS to the whole bloat and increasing the size of the binary even more.
>> Nothing that is 'extra' in MAME causes any problems. If you don't want to use artwork, etc., just don't use any.
<<
All I'm really proposing here is to improve and automatize "tiny.mak" thing, an extra feature that does not cause any problems. If you don't want it, just don't use it.
Anyway, what do you say is the purpose combined MAME+MESS build is supposed to serve?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285657 - 05/09/12 04:05 AM
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Keep in mind that what I wrote in my other post is an assumption.
I assume that MAME and MESS developers build the 'other version' of their code before checking it in, and often or always build the combined build also. I would be surprised if they don't since it's kind of a fundamental rule of software development that you check all reasonable build flavors before submitting a change.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285660 - 05/09/12 04:30 AM
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Nah. I'll stay with what we have.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#285684 - 05/09/12 09:09 AM
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> Keep in mind that what I wrote in my other post is an assumption.
>
> I assume that MAME and MESS developers build the 'other version' of their code before
> checking it in, and often or always build the combined build also. I would be
> surprised if they don't since it's kind of a fundamental rule of software development
> that you check all reasonable build flavors before submitting a change.
assumption is of course correct when you refer to developers which work on chips/components shared by both arcade and consoles/computers: usually code is already tested to be working on both projects before being added. still different devs might prefer to work in different ways: there are people working with a single binary, testing all changes in both projects at once, and there are people which first make sure that things work in MAME (or MESS, depending on which side makes more extensive use of the component being worked on), and when the code is good enough for these they pass to test the changes on the other side.
anyway, it's very easy to have regressions crawling in, no matter if you use combined builds or split ones: when you touch a component shared by many systems (say ~100 different arcade and home systems), you cannot really test *all* of them extensively... you select the systems you think are good testcases and you cross your fingers that nothing else breaks in the others. and here it enters the importance of having regular updates (and even a public git mirror) for people to test changes and report possible regressions.
if a regression appears in some untested system/game, then you have a new testcase to add for next time you work on that component
the whole thing, anyway, has not much to do with the availability of an official combined exe, though, which I thought was the subject of the thread...
developers already knows how to build their own combined build, if they want to, since they already compile their own code and a combined build only requires to add 3 simple files which just include mame.mak/mess.mak/mame.lst/mess.lst...
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Re: Never mind
[Re: Sune]
#285685 - 05/09/12 09:15 AM
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it's mostly Micko's work (he made most of the cleanups in the makefiles and added support to easily import driver lists) and it works like a charm: you can have as many targets as you want
1. you create a new #target# folder inside src/ and the proper #target#.mak (which is probably the most elaborated part, but it has been done already )
2. you include the games you want in the #target#.lst (including them either one by one, or importing the whole mame/mess.lst, or removing some games/systems if you don't want them)
3. then you launch "make TARGET=#target#" and you are done, as long as you have updated the two trees when they are sync'd
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285686 - 05/09/12 09:47 AM
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> Guys I think you moved away from the thread's topic.
>
> The topic is about "combined build" (so it cannot even mean the source, as the source
> is already more or less one).
>
> Also I think with 10-20 users participating in the thread, a vote would be stupid.
> Hell even if all EmuChat voted, it wouldn't mean anything. AFAIK thousands use MAME
> (and maybe 1/10th of them also use MESS - also I hope 1/2 of them KNOW MESS at
> least).
>
> As a member of the team (?) pointed out, there are some practical issues for this to
> become reality yet ...that honestly I don't see and I asked more "educated in the
> subject" people and weirdly enough agree with me, but anyway, the thing is, the devs
> are the devs and until someone that is a MAME team dev steps up and says "I will
> handle the unified build and produce it for all major updates", then for us is not
> much to do. Yelling doesn't help either (I usually tend to be pretty vocal).
>
> I am that close to make a bet that we will start having an official unified build
> within the next six months, but knowing that there are people that actually push
> against it (for reasons I am not sure are valid), I will not make that bet.
>
> I'd love more expert opinion from "my" side (I know and you know that at least one
> voice is not interested to be heard here), but in any case I've done what I can.
> (which is not much)
my impression is that you tend to presume too much (or so I interpret the fact that you see politics whenever someone has an opinion which differ from yours) and I still have to see you offering a good reason to have a single exe officially released.
Haze's beloved argument about higher advertising thanks of the usage of MAME brand for the emulation in MESS is not such a good reason: while it might be fine when referring to enlarge the userbase (to make easier to spot bugs), it is fundamentally flawed when referring to enlarge the number of devs.
good developers keep being attracted by MESS even if it's not MAME, and if they find arcade hardware they are interested in, they work on it despite MAME being separate from MESS (an example? Sandro Ronco, which has done a great job with a lot of portable computers as a MESSdev and which has also started to work on MAME, when he has found something he was interested in)
the hard part is to find people interested in working on MAME/MESS, and usually it's not the name of the project to attract them or push them away
and mind that I'm not completely against the release of a combined exe (for the record, it was me who pointed Haze to Micko's approach, which is considerably easier than previous build instructions that Haze was suggesting to users, so that he had a simpler way to manage his beloved UME), but in my opinion we should first fix the other concerns about mametesters and bandwidth, and then we should start preparing a very extensive documentation to explain users how systems requiring software (i.e. most consoles and computers) should be used.
given the number of people still not using multiple carts in megatech because they need to separately mount the carts, instead of just launching the single games, I fear that a lot of users could be discouraged at first with consoles and computers: systems with additional software are slightly more complicated to launch than basic MAME usage (the suggested usage mode is to add proper media switch and then the software name, because computer emulation is almost worthless if you can't run programs you wrote as a kid, when you still have them, and software lists are a privileged launching mode but not the only one and it should not be presented as such).
as a result, an abrupt inclusion of computers and consoles in MAME, with no explanations on what to do with them, might lead people to think that consoles don't work because they don't give you a list of games to launch (depending on the frontend you use), or that computers don't work because you mount a tape and it does not autostart...
p.s. the above is purely my personal pov, other devs probably have very different opinions
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285689 - 05/09/12 09:51 AM
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> Also MESS is not separated from MAME completely as it could be, like Pacman driver
> is. All these things I say could be separated from MAME core just like game drivers
> are.
it is. but you use very outdated source code and so you can't know it.
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| NLS |
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285691 - 05/09/12 10:19 AM
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> my impression is that you tend to presume too much (or so I interpret the fact that
> you see politics whenever someone has an opinion which differ from yours) and I still
I see politics and I see them both sides.
> have to see you offering a good reason to have a single exe officially released.
Not my job. From my personal (user) view is like explaining why B is after A in the alphabet.
That said I can think of various reasons (good or bad - seems the classification is too SUBJECTIVE), I will not repeat any in a thread already 100+ posts long.
> the hard part is to find people interested in working on MAME/MESS, and usually it's
> not the name of the project to attract them or push them away
> and mind that I'm not completely against the release of a combined exe (for the
> record, it was me who pointed Haze to Micko's approach, which is considerably easier
> than previous build instructions that Haze was suggesting to users, so that he had a
> simpler way to manage his beloved UME), but in my opinion we should first fix the
> other concerns about mametesters and bandwidth, and then we should start preparing a
> very extensive documentation to explain users how systems requiring software (i.e.
> most consoles and computers) should be used.
> given the number of people still not using multiple carts in megatech because they
> need to separately mount the carts, instead of just launching the single games, I
> fear that a lot of users could be discouraged at first with consoles and computers:
> systems with additional software are slightly more complicated to launch than basic
> MAME usage (the suggested usage mode is to add proper media switch and then the
> software name, because computer emulation is almost worthless if you can't run
> programs you wrote as a kid, when you still have them, and software lists are a
> privileged launching mode but not the only one and it should not be presented as
> such).
I was about to say that your points are more or less valid, when I realized that you seem to use interchangeably users and devs. If devs cannot see behind a curtain I don't think they are good devs anyway (I mean the source is there, it is already multi-modular, I know there are devs that just touch VERY specific modules and have no idea of how others work, so what would change in this? Nothing). As for users, I cannot see a single user "scared" away by a combined exe - plain and simply.
> as a result, an abrupt inclusion of computers and consoles in MAME, with no
> explanations on what to do with them, might lead people to think that consoles don't
> work because they don't give you a list of games to launch (depending on the frontend
> you use), or that computers don't work because you mount a tape and it does not
> autostart...
So you are saying that it is a matter of good... documentation? Your four lines were enough actually - you did explain the difference already. I think we can clean up your comment and explain everybody with lower IQ than mean Homo Sapiens that computers emulated in MAME(SS) work a bit differently than consoles emulated. Not much, just a bit. Because you know... most consoles boot directly to a game while computers mostly don't. Something that I think a 10 year old already realizes...
> p.s. the above is purely my personal pov, other devs probably have very different
> opinions
Sure. Same here and I am not even a (mame) dev.
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| Naoki |
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Reged: 11/10/09
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Posts: 1998
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285693 - 05/09/12 11:21 AM
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If I could modify the MAME source to include a few bootlegs of DDR stuff and make my own build with only the Konami 573 driver, then you can't moan about making your own build especially since I am the worst person to talk to about coding, even BASIC. Just sit down and read the code.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285696 - 05/09/12 12:14 PM
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> and mind that I'm not completely against the release of a combined exe
> , but in my opinion we should first fix the
> other concerns about mametesters and bandwidth, and then we should start preparing a
> very extensive documentation to explain users how systems requiring software (i.e.
> most consoles and computers) should be used.
Thank you for clarifying things in your other posts.
I'm trying to learn more about how MAME development works
and you have been very helpful.
It's good to see the responsible path taken here.
So before there can be a merged build, there must first be
- Merged MAME Testers. Already in beta.
- Merged mirrors. Perhaps some more mirrors might be needed.
- Merged documentation. Hopefully this won't take to long.
It's good to see things like these aren't rushed,
but I hope they don't take too long either!
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Re: Combined build
[Re: NLS]
#285697 - 05/09/12 12:15 PM
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> So you are saying that it is a matter of good... documentation? Your four lines were
> enough actually - you did explain the difference already. I think we can clean up
> your comment and explain everybody with lower IQ than mean Homo Sapiens that
> computers emulated in MAME(SS) work a bit differently than consoles emulated. Not
> much, just a bit. Because you know... most consoles boot directly to a game while
> computers mostly don't. Something that I think a 10 year old already realizes...
>
I have wrote a pretty large howto manual for MESS, in the past, in answer to explicit requests by many friends which wanted to give MESS a try but were scared by the (supposed) additional difficulties. such difficulties were not related to the fact the exe was separate from MAME, or that they had to download it from a different website, but they were due to having to select both a system and a game.
I'm still quite disappointed that my howto guide got lost when MESS wiki died, but I think I know what I'm talking about, given the number of people I have guided through MESS basic usage...
so yes, I believe that good documentation is needed for a project as large as MESS is (even more now that we support configurable slot options).
no matter how smart you can be, you have to take into account that a lot of people apparently need more explanations about how things work. many users don't use megatech multicarts in MAME because they don't seem to know how to (maybe it's not documented enough? maybe it's too difficult compared to launching directly the single game?), and a lot of MESS users have asked in the past why a C64 tape was not starting after mounted.
in your eyes this probably means that our audience is less than 9 years old, but in my eyes it just means that a better documentation is needed. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect to convince me.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285699 - 05/09/12 01:09 PM
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>> it is. but you use very outdated source code and so you can't know it.
<<
That's great, really is. Can't see how it was done exactly, but I clap my paws to no more #IFDEFs. Who did that?
I actually refer to more than dozen MAME builds from 0.34 to 0.141, as that was the latest when I started my re-writes, I guess these changes happened in 0.142. What a day!
So, as I gather the reason to have combined build is just about MESS developers wanting to step a little bit under the spotlight. No any practical benefit for either developers or users, except hope this might bring a few more testers. I think who cares already knows about MESS, but people will not use MESS instead of SNES unless it is actually better. MESS in MAME or its accuracy will not bring new users, only speed, compatibility and simplicity might, with or without MAME just the same.
However, most of the simplicity points you loose just by being multiple instead of single console emulator, unlike MAME. It's because when people are interested in arcade games they are interested in all or most of them, but with consoles everyone has only one or few they care about, so all the rest of the stuff is more like "cancer" rather than just an "option". The rest of what is left of those simplicity points you will lose by merging it with MAME, and even if you somehow make it more simple than it was before there is still no any particular reason why someone who want's to play SNES would download 100mb binary with all sorts of crap that is of no interest to them and spend days on configuration when they could play SNES in matter of minutes.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285700 - 05/09/12 01:26 PM
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> Someone who want's to play SNES would download 100mb binary with all sorts of crap that
> is of no interest to them and spend days on configuration when they could play SNES in
> matter of minutes.
Nobody is being forced to download anything. If they want to download some other emulator, that is their choice. Your arguments serve no purpose.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285701 - 05/09/12 01:47 PM
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>> Nobody is being forced to download anything. If they want to download some other emulator, that is their choice. Your arguments serve no purpose.
<<
No, it's the choice you are making for everyone. Forcing is exactly what you are doing. You are forcing people interested only in MAME to download MESS. You are forcing people interested only in SNES to download arcade, gambling, mahjong and other crap.
My arguments serve the purpose to explain to you how forcing will not bring new users, you will only loose them.
Now, lets hear some of your arguments:
- What purpose is combined MAME+MESS build supposed to serve?
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Naoki]
#285702 - 05/09/12 02:21 PM
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>> If I could modify the MAME source to include a few bootlegs of DDR stuff and make my own build with only the Konami 573 driver, then you can't moan about making your own build especially since I am the worst person to talk to about coding, even BASIC. Just sit down and read the code.
<<
Yes, but put our efforts together and we could make it simpler and more general so anyone can do it.
That's the point of the public project, everyone chips a little bit for the benefit of all, not for themselves.
Look, if they gonna force us to download 100mb binary just to play Pacman, the need to make a custom build seem higher than ever. All I suggest is few compiler options to make possible to get rid of, not individual games for now, but whole categories like: neogeo, mech, pinball, mahjong, mess...
So, if you wanna only MAME & NEOGEO you compile with:
> "make -no-mech -no-pin -no-mahjong -no-mess"
You wanna all, then just type "make". Why not?
My build can already do something like that, but it's not me who did it, the guy who made GP32 port did, still I can tell you it's pretty simple thing to do. Or at last was in 0.37, not sure if I could easily translate it to the most recent MAME since I am not familiar with any of the changes in the last year. But, I sure will not even attempt it if all I get in return for proposing it is a spit in a face, instead of bacon. I prefer bacon, meow!
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: etabeta]
#285703 - 05/09/12 02:49 PM
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> in your eyes this probably means that our audience is less than 9 years old, but in
> my eyes it just means that a better documentation is needed. Feel free to disagree,
> but don't expect to convince me.
But I don't disagree. I am saying that this is a minor obstacle.
I am sure that many people (maybe even you that have done it before) will jump in and fix-merge the docs.
There are even full "How-To" web pages now that the projects are split. I suppose it will be the same when they are merged.
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Computing Nostalgia Adict
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285704 - 05/09/12 02:54 PM
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> Now, lets hear some of your arguments:
> - What purpose is combined MAME+MESS build supposed to serve?
- Well it will bring two projects that are... actually one, together.
- Also it will make MESS work (not MESS as a project since it will be part of MAME guts) public to everybody that "misses" it somehow today. Talking about users and devs.
- Will make the whole project a tiny bit more "magnificent".
I am just mentioning some of what is seen with the eye of the enthusiast USER. I somehow believe some devs can find more reasons.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285705 - 05/09/12 03:01 PM
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> Look, if they gonna force us to download 100mb binary just to play Pacman, the need to
> make a custom build seem higher than ever. All I suggest is few compiler options to make
> possible to get rid of, not individual games for now, but whole categories like: neogeo,
> mech, pinball, mahjong, mess...
This would mean that the compile filter (that *.lst I've seen in docs) is able to use MAMEUI folders or something. (would be interesting)
Yet this is different from what this thread talks about.
BTW I have a different question (since you mentioned "100MB binary")... I always wondered (much before this merge talk), what is the point of building a "monolithic" exe and not have some of the main modules as separate dll in a subfolder? Would possibly greatly help with end-user updates as possibly only SOME of the DLL change. Or indeed help with making what you ask. If a user has only some of the dll, he will be able to use MAME but with reduced functionality (eg. no "mechanical.dll" - although I am not saying I know what kind of dll "split" should be done, I am just giving an example).
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285706 - 05/09/12 03:06 PM
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>>
No, it's the choice you are making for everyone. Forcing is exactly what you are doing. You are forcing people interested only in MAME to download MESS. You are forcing people interested only in SNES to download arcade, gambling, mahjong and other crap.
>>
Don't be silly. You're just trolling. This thread is to discuss what interest may exist in an unofficial combined build - nothing more. The official MAME and MESS separate builds will be around for a long time yet. If you don't like my unofficial build, don't download it. Simple. If you just want to play SNES, download BSNES or some other purpose-built emulator. You argue for the sake of argument.
>>
My arguments serve the purpose to explain to you how forcing will not bring new users, you will only loose them.
<<
Not my problem. Users can do whatever they wish with their emulation needs.
>>
Now, lets hear some of your arguments:
- What purpose is combined MAME+MESS build supposed to serve?
<<
To gauge whatever level of interest may exist. That's all.
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Re: Combined build
[Re: Robbbert]
#285711 - 05/09/12 04:19 PM
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>> This thread is to discuss what interest may exist in an unofficial combined build - nothing more.
<<
You are talking about some private build of yours, that is never even supposed to be available for download on mamedev.org?
Why do you call it "unofficial", it sounds as if it's gonna turn to "official" any moment now, why are you simply not referring to it as your "private build"?
>> You argue for the sake of argument.
<<
Ughh. I argued because I though this was about official release, or soon to be official.
If I managed to misunderstand this topic twice in a row then I am bloody stupid for that, sorry to everyone. But then, why in the world anyone even cares about this?!?
Edited by LazyCat (05/09/12 04:40 PM)
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I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: Combined build
[Re: LazyCat]
#285722 - 05/09/12 07:08 PM
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And, as my first act of power, we lock this thread.
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