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What Set To Choose Between The Two
#274239 - 01/27/12 12:23 PM
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I'll use the game "Cabal" as an example. If a person already has the parent set of the game, which is "Cabal (World, Joystick version)." But the person wants to play the trackball version. There are two options he can choose from. They are:
Cabal (US set 1, Trackball version)
or
Cabal (US set 2, Trackball version)
So, which one should the person choose?
What is the difference between those two sets?
Their WIP is identical.
Does the "set 2" mean that it is an update to the "set 1" version that has possibly fixed bugs/glitches in the game and/or added extra features in the game?
Or does it mean it's just a different PCB board but the gameplay is still identical?
In similiar situations like this one, is a person most likely better off in choosing "set 2" instead of "set 1"?
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Stiletto |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#274258 - 01/27/12 04:19 PM
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Here's how this works...
If MAMEDEV knows the difference (based on revision date/version physically marked on the ROMs or contained within the data or other information) then it's included in the set description.
Sometimes some MAMEDEV (like stephh) has complete understanding of the processors used by the games and can make a judgement call as to which set came first based on looking at the code/data, and then this will also often be reflected in the description.
If NEITHER are possible - then simply "set 1", "set 2", are put in the description, with no value judgment.
Sometimes users come back with suggestions about the ordering and that will sometimes be reflected in the source code comments. Such as "I just dumped the Pac-Man 2.0 upgrade kit I own, and the ROMs match set 2, so set 2 should really be called 'Pac-Man 2.0'"
(There, I don't think I missed anything...)
- Stiletto
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274266 - 01/27/12 05:21 PM
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> If NEITHER are possible - then simply "set 1", "set 2", are put in the description,
> with no value judgment.
Correct. "Set 1", "Set 2" type names mean that the ROMs are different but we don't know what actually changed. People who find out are welcome to post here or on MAMETesters with their findings and we'll alter the set names accordingly.
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| italie |
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MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
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OSG better be saving all this for thenew "FAQ" he's writing.<nt>
[Re: R. Belmont]
#274275 - 01/27/12 08:27 PM
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> > If NEITHER are possible - then simply "set 1", "set 2", are put in the description,
> > with no value judgment.
>
> Correct. "Set 1", "Set 2" type names mean that the ROMs are different but we don't
> know what actually changed. People who find out are welcome to post here or on
> MAMETesters with their findings and we'll alter the set names accordingly.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: A FAQ also? WOW! he is creating entire new MAWS as well xD <nt>
[Re: italie]
#274280 - 01/27/12 10:38 PM
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: OSG better be saving all this for thenew "FAQ" he's writing.<nt>
[Re: italie]
#274285 - 01/27/12 11:20 PM
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> > > If NEITHER are possible - then simply "set 1", "set 2", are put in the
> description,
> > > with no value judgment.
> >
> > Correct. "Set 1", "Set 2" type names mean that the ROMs are different but we don't
> > know what actually changed. People who find out are welcome to post here or on
> > MAMETesters with their findings and we'll alter the set names accordingly.
To be honest, I'm not sure that naming "guidelines" are mentioned in the official MAME FAQ, but it's never needed to be documented. First off, they've always been slightly in flux/judgement call, and secondly, anyone submitting documentation changes to update the descriptions usually know this already. And typically, users don't need to know because they often just play whatever the parent set is in my experience. I mean, you don't usually have someone working through every set of Tempest, for example.
- Stiletto
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| italie |
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MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
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Re: OSG better be saving all this for thenew "FAQ" he's writing.<nt>
[Re: Stiletto]
#274292 - 01/28/12 01:42 AM
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> To be honest, I'm not sure that naming "guidelines" are mentioned in the official
> MAME FAQ, but it's never needed to be documented. First off, they've always been
> slightly in flux/judgement call, and secondly, anyone submitting documentation
> changes to update the descriptions usually know this already. And typically, users
> don't need to know because they often just play whatever the parent set is in my
> experience. I mean, you don't usually have someone working through every set of
> Tempest, for example.
I'm just saying, with all this knowledge he's compounding he could do something useful...
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In my early MAME days, I would try each set....
[Re: italie]
#274297 - 01/28/12 03:00 AM
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But those were mostly 80s games, and hence not many to test, and ultimately I found that most games weren't different. Robotron and robotryo are exceptions; they play differently. So do the Centuri and Tehkan sets of Pleiads (Centuri's is harder).
So I almost strictly stick with the parent set, and don't even archive clones, etc. Exceptions are: rare cases like Pac-Man, where I use that set, cos I'm US of course; and when I want to use different scanline display methods - for example:
- DK/224x256 games older MAME : dd+scanlines 50% set 1 ; D3D+scanlines 50% set 2 ; or switchres 800x600 + scanlines 50% set 2 .
- DK newer MAME : effect scanrez2_V (my special version) set 1 ; HLSL set 2 .
- Pac/224x288 games newer MAME: switchres 800x600 + scanlines 50% set 1 ; HLSL set 2 .
This is using a CRT, of course.
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Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
The Culture
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274304 - 01/28/12 04:37 AM
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Thanks for the explanation.
Yea, I normally always just play the parent set. The only time I will play it's clone is if it has a trackball version instead of a joystick version and vice versa depending on the game and my preference of what controller I'd like to use. Another reason that I might play a parent set's clone is if the parent set's language is in Japanese and there is an English language clone. Also, another reason, and this is extremely rare, but if the clone has working sound but the parent set doesn't have working sound...An example of this is with the game "Tough Turf", the clone US version has working sound but the parent Japan version does not have working sound. One last reason would be if the clone has additional features in the gameplay that the parent set does not have...An example would be the clone of "NBA Hangtime", which is "NBA Maximum Hangtime." That clone has a few extra players on certain teams' rosters.
So those are the only reasons why I would choose to play the clone instead of the parent set.
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274377 - 01/29/12 01:34 AM
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> Sometimes some MAMEDEV (like stephh) has complete understanding of the processors used by the games and can make a judgement call as to which set came first based on looking at the code/data, and then this will also often be reflected in the description.
It's a LONG task, especially for games with big ROM area and Z80 banked games !
> If NEITHER are possible - then simply "set 1", "set 2", are put in the description, with no value judgment.
BTW, I'd be happy if we could get rid of the "alternate" sets and use "set n" instead ...
 Steph from The Ultimate Patchers 
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274378 - 01/29/12 01:56 AM
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Which, in turn, reminds me how Capcom was particularly prone to revisionism in their CPS1 and CPS2 titles.
Digging through THAT morass is going to be fun, with such things as Guile's "handcuffs" and various adjustments to framecounts, priority. and damage. Might be a good project to get SRK on, actually...
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| AWJ |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Firehawke]
#274381 - 01/29/12 02:39 AM
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I don't think Capcom ever made actual gameplay changes to Street Fighter without calling the revision a new game.
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: AWJ]
#274385 - 01/29/12 03:35 AM
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Absolutely incorrect. Alpha Anthology has a special "dipswitches" menu for adjusting gameplay elements based on multiple revisions of the Alpha series arcade code.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/931620-street-fighter-alpha-anthology/faqs/53049
Edit: I should probably clarify something. While 99.99% of the adjustments were bugfixes, a change to even a single active move typically had rippling effects across the entire game that could be on-par to a whole balance pass-- none of this is currently documented, and I believe that there's actually quite a bit of history here should someone want to dig in deeply enough.
Edited by Firehawke (01/29/12 04:29 AM)
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Firehawke]
#274386 - 01/29/12 03:58 AM
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For framecounts you mean how long a certain frame of animation showed before moving on?
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Smitdogg]
#274387 - 01/29/12 04:08 AM
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'cabalus' vs 'cabalus2'
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#274404 - 01/29/12 11:27 AM
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> I'll use the game "Cabal" as an example. If a person already has the parent set of the game, which is "Cabal (World, Joystick version)." But the person wants to play the trackball version. There are two options he can choose from. They are:
>
> Cabal (US set 1, Trackball version)
>
> or
>
> Cabal (US set 2, Trackball version)
>
> So, which one should the person choose?
>
> What is the difference between those two sets?
After a brief look at the M68000 code and the games, it appears that "set 1" has an additional "Winners don't use drugs" FBI warning screen ... Because of this, the code is completely "shifted", so it's difficult to spot other differences ...
Steph from The Ultimate Patchers
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| Stiletto |
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Re: 'cabalus' vs 'cabalus2'
[Re: stephh]
#274426 - 01/29/12 07:53 PM
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> > I'll use the game "Cabal" as an example. If a person already has the parent set of
> the game, which is "Cabal (World, Joystick version)." But the person wants to play
> the trackball version. There are two options he can choose from. They are:
> >
> > Cabal (US set 1, Trackball version)
> >
> > or
> >
> > Cabal (US set 2, Trackball version)
> >
> > So, which one should the person choose?
> >
> > What is the difference between those two sets?
>
> After a brief look at the M68000 code and the games, it appears that "set 1" has an
> additional "Winners don't use drugs" FBI warning screen ... Because of this, the code
> is completely "shifted", so it's difficult to spot other differences ...
>
> Steph from The Ultimate Patchers
Awww stephh, I did not mean to summon you to look at this...
- Stiletto
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| Stiletto |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: stephh]
#274427 - 01/29/12 07:57 PM
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> BTW, I'd be happy if we could get rid of the "alternate" sets and use "set n" instead
> ...
Well, as we see from this thread, some people are mistaking "set n" for version/revision numbers... this is probably one of those things that will be hard to get the point across no matter what phrasing is picked... if it wouldn't make waves, I'd nominate "alternate set n" as being a little clearer.
- Stiletto
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| Stiletto |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Firehawke]
#274428 - 01/29/12 08:00 PM
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> Absolutely incorrect. Alpha Anthology has a special "dipswitches" menu for adjusting
> gameplay elements based on multiple revisions of the Alpha series arcade code.
>
> http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/931620-street-fighter-alpha-anthology/faqs/53049
>
> Edit: I should probably clarify something. While 99.99% of the adjustments were
> bugfixes, a change to even a single active move typically had rippling effects across
> the entire game that could be on-par to a whole balance pass-- none of this is
> currently documented, and I believe that there's actually quite a bit of history here
> should someone want to dig in deeply enough.
But for CPS1/CPS2? I'm with AWJ... unless Capcom's going to come out and say "yeah, these were ours", I'm blaming it ALL on the bootleg scene at the time.
- Stiletto
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274430 - 01/29/12 08:06 PM
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Bootlegs? I'm only talking about official Capcom releases. For instance, across this line:
sf2ua Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910206)
sf2ub Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910214)
sf2uc Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910306)
sf2ud Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910318)
sf2ue Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910228)
sf2uf Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910411)
sf2ui Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910522)
sf2uk Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 911101)
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| Stiletto |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Firehawke]
#274432 - 01/29/12 08:11 PM
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> Bootlegs? I'm only talking about official Capcom releases. For instance, across this
> line:
>
> sf2ua Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910206)
> sf2ub Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910214)
> sf2uc Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910306)
> sf2ud Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910318)
> sf2ue Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910228)
> sf2uf Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910411)
> sf2ui Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 910522)
> sf2uk Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (USA 911101)
Ah, okay then. Yep, pro gamers will probably detect difference between bugfixes. 
- Stiletto
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| AWJ |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Firehawke]
#274433 - 01/29/12 08:18 PM
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> Absolutely incorrect. Alpha Anthology has a special "dipswitches" menu for adjusting
> gameplay elements based on multiple revisions of the Alpha series arcade code.
>
> http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/931620-street-fighter-alpha-anthology/faqs/53049
>
> Edit: I should probably clarify something. While 99.99% of the adjustments were
> bugfixes, a change to even a single active move typically had rippling effects across
> the entire game that could be on-par to a whole balance pass-- none of this is
> currently documented, and I believe that there's actually quite a bit of history here
> should someone want to dig in deeply enough.
I should clarify that I meant "gameplay changes other than bug fixes". I must admit that I completely forgot about Guy's dizzy damage in Alpha 1.
Also, I think that the majority of those dipswitch-configurable bug fixes were made for console ports, and never saw the light of day on actual CPS2 PCBs. The SFA3 sets in MAME represent at least three revision levels, and even the latest revision still has the damage bugs related to Saikyo and Mazi modes, the guard crush gauge freaking out when you block 32 hits in a row, and the inconsistent VC invulnerability rules between characters, just to name three well-known bugs that have major effects on game balance.
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: AWJ]
#274434 - 01/29/12 08:23 PM
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It might be that some bugs were left untouched. It might be that non-gameplay elements were the only things touched. I believe that at least in SF2 there were some changes, though.
In any case, my entire point was more to the effect that this is something that probably needs a deeper examination at some point just to get it 100% cleared. If there ARE changes, they need to be documented. If not, then I eat my words and we know for 100% certainty there too.
There's a rare chance with the Capcom stuff here in that they're some of the only clearly dated material in the entire MAME set. There's actually a chance to dig deep enough to work out what really got changed revision to revision and document it.
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274449 - 01/30/12 12:38 AM
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>> BTW, I'd be happy if we could get rid of the "alternate" sets and use "set n" instead ...
> Well, as we see from this thread, some people are mistaking "set n" for version/revision numbers... this is probably one of those things that will be hard to get the point across no matter what phrasing is picked... if it wouldn't make waves, I'd nominate "alternate set n" as being a little clearer.
Honestly, I don't see where people should have problems with the "set n" description : IIRC, such "convention" exists since MAME begining 15 years ago ...
And IMO, "alternate set 1" would be hard to explain ...
Steph from The Ultimate Patchers
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| Stiletto |
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: stephh]
#274454 - 01/30/12 01:41 AM
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> Honestly, I don't see where people should have problems with the "set n" description
> : IIRC, such "convention" exists since MAME begining 15 years ago ...
>
> And IMO, "alternate set 1" would be hard to explain ...
... ehhh... maybe we _should_ document the naming convention somewhere, in that case...
I'm fine with the status quo, just trying to have an easy answer for n00b questions in the future...
- Stiletto
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Re: What Set To Choose Between The Two
[Re: Stiletto]
#274472 - 01/30/12 06:30 AM
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I don't think there's any need to change the naming of it. Maybe just a simple sentence in the FAQ explaining it would be sufficient.
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Re: 'cabalus' vs 'cabalus2'
[Re: stephh]
#274560 - 01/31/12 04:26 AM
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> > I'll use the game "Cabal" as an example. If a person already has the parent set of
> the game, which is "Cabal (World, Joystick version)." But the person wants to play
> the trackball version. There are two options he can choose from. They are:
> >
> > Cabal (US set 1, Trackball version)
> >
> > or
> >
> > Cabal (US set 2, Trackball version)
> >
> > So, which one should the person choose?
> >
> > What is the difference between those two sets?
>
> After a brief look at the M68000 code and the games, it appears that "set 1" has an
> additional "Winners don't use drugs" FBI warning screen ... Because of this, the code
> is completely "shifted", so it's difficult to spot other differences ...
>
> Steph from The Ultimate Patchers
Interesting. If set 2 lacks that screen I wonder if it isn't actually a europe or world set...
LN
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