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CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
#268373 - 11/11/11 04:58 AM
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Allnatural]
#268375 - 11/11/11 05:06 AM
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I'm right with you buddy. I only buy CDs.
Fortunately, I don't like most of the new music coming out, so I guess I can just buy older CDs off eBay or something and pirate the occasional new song that catches my ear.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: krick]
#268378 - 11/11/11 05:46 AM
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> I'm right with you buddy. I only buy CDs.
>
> Fortunately, I don't like most of the new music coming out, so I guess I can just buy
> older CDs off eBay or something and pirate the occasional new song that catches my
> ear.
I'm the exact opposite, I don't miss CDs in the slightest. I mostly listen to music in the car, on the bus, or when I'm otherwise traveling, so I always hated having to remember to grab CDs and lug them around. Now I have my entire music collection (or at least the portion I care to listen to on a regular basis) on a 32GB iPhone. Just plug in headphones and everything's right there. I have zero problem buying downloads, it just saves me the trouble of ripping the CD and throwing it in a closet.
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| redk9258 |
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: krick]
#268379 - 11/11/11 05:49 AM
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Krick,
I am with you 100%. There is no new music that is worth buying.. at least that is being promoted. The last several CDs that I have bought were (re)mastered so badly, I stopped buying CDs altogether. They have shot themselves in the foot by being overpriced and by jacking up the volume so loud it doesn't resemble music anymore to me. I actually like the sound of most CDs that are NOT remastered. I seek out the original releases and try not to buy anything that says 'remastered'.
I'm wondering if anyone has heard the latest remastering of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon". Have they done a decent job and is it better than the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab version. I have the MFSL version and it sounds fucking awesome as does "The Wall". When I play the song "Mother", it sounds like the band is in my living room. The record labels should just let Mobile Fidelity do the remastering for them and not worry about trying to get the most decibels from the disc! That is why we have a volume control!
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I picked up the re-mastered Megadeth album "Rust in Peace" a few years ago because I was curious about how it sounded. I ended up giving it away to a friend. I prefer the original mix because that's the mix I fell in love with. The re-master is more "in your face" and clearer but I don't feel like it has as much dynamic range as the original mix.
Supposedly, there's a re-mastered version of the Minor Threat discography. I'm curious to hear if they just made it clearer or if they sucked the dynamic range out of it too.
I'm sure you heard about how awful the Metallica Death Magnetic master was. It's compressed within an inch of its life and clips like crazy. Supposedly, there's a version of most of the tracks that someone ripped from a game (Guitar Hero or Rock Band, I think) that haven't been compressed and don't clip. The difference is shocking.
Here's an interesting site about the "Loudness Wars"...
http://productionadvice.co.uk/loudness-war-secret/
[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: krick]
#268383 - 11/11/11 06:23 AM
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| Stiletto |
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: redk9258]
#268384 - 11/11/11 06:25 AM
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> Krick,
>
> I am with you 100%. There is no new music that is worth buying.. at least that is
> being promoted. The last several CDs that I have bought were (re)mastered so badly, I
> stopped buying CDs altogether. They have shot themselves in the foot by being
> overpriced and by jacking up the volume so loud it doesn't resemble music anymore to
> me. I actually like the sound of most CDs that are NOT remastered. I seek out the
> original releases and try not to buy anything that says 'remastered'.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has heard the latest remastering of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side
> Of The Moon". Have they done a decent job and is it better than the Mobile Fidelity
> Sound Lab version. I have the MFSL version and it sounds fucking awesome as does "The
> Wall". When I play the song "Mother", it sounds like the band is in my living room.
> The record labels should just let Mobile Fidelity do the remastering for them and not
> worry about trying to get the most decibels from the disc! That is why we have a
> volume control!
Whatever happened to DVD-Audio or SuperAudio CD's, they were supposed to deliver surround sound and higher-than-usual audio quality. It sounded promising. I haven't heard of any streaming/downloadable audio files or any sort of remastering being done to that level...
- Stiletto
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: krick]
#268386 - 11/11/11 06:30 AM
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A lot of the loudness wars talk sounds like over simplified bullshit to me. It's not all as simple as "a brickwall" and although it hurts a lot of stuff, it also helps a lot of other stuff. A lot of rap/hip-hop/techno sounds better with the newer compression methods than it would without it. And not all remastering deserves to be demonized either. A lot of music needs it and still hasn't gotten it or it hasn't been done well yet. I agree it often does screw stuff up. All the old Ride albums were perfect and the remasters are not much more than an interesting one-listen. I definitely think a lot of Floyd stuff could stand a remaster, not sure if the Zeppelin stuff has been done correctly yet, it has certainly been done incorrectly, plenty of Smiths 80's stuff needs it, tons of classics could use it.
I agree about the cd switch, it would bother me if I cared much about any current bands. The bands I do like are the type that will have cds anyway or some weird dvd audio most likely.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Stiletto]
#268387 - 11/11/11 06:33 AM
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They never put them standard in cars and mp3 players made the max carry around size smaller than a disc walkman. Nobody will carry around something that big for music anymore. It would be like carrying one of the brick cell phones. Bands like the Flaming Lips have come out with DVD audio discs though. It over complicates it though, using 5.1. Stereo is king for music unless you're going on a psychedelic experience or something.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Stiletto]
#268388 - 11/11/11 07:21 AM
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> > Krick,
> >
> > I am with you 100%. There is no new music that is worth buying.. at least that is
> > being promoted. The last several CDs that I have bought were (re)mastered so badly,
> I
> > stopped buying CDs altogether. They have shot themselves in the foot by being
> > overpriced and by jacking up the volume so loud it doesn't resemble music anymore
> to
> > me. I actually like the sound of most CDs that are NOT remastered. I seek out the
> > original releases and try not to buy anything that says 'remastered'.
> >
> > I'm wondering if anyone has heard the latest remastering of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side
> > Of The Moon". Have they done a decent job and is it better than the Mobile Fidelity
> > Sound Lab version. I have the MFSL version and it sounds fucking awesome as does
> "The
> > Wall". When I play the song "Mother", it sounds like the band is in my living room.
> > The record labels should just let Mobile Fidelity do the remastering for them and
> not
> > worry about trying to get the most decibels from the disc! That is why we have a
> > volume control!
>
> Whatever happened to DVD-Audio or SuperAudio CD's, they were supposed to deliver
> surround sound and higher-than-usual audio quality. It sounded promising. I haven't
> heard of any streaming/downloadable audio files or any sort of remastering being done
> to that level...
>
> - Stiletto
SACDs are still popular... in Europe and Asia. Nobody in America gives a damn about them.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268398 - 11/11/11 02:28 PM
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> They never put them standard in cars and mp3 players made the max carry around size
> smaller than a disc walkman. Nobody will carry around something that big for music
> anymore. It would be like carrying one of the brick cell phones. Bands like the
> Flaming Lips have come out with DVD audio discs though. It over complicates it
> though, using 5.1. Stereo is king for music unless you're going on a psychedelic
> experience or something.
The Lips most recent release was on a flash drive in a jello skull. The next 'limited release' from them will be a really long (like 20 hours) album on a flash drive in a real skull. And I thought Zaireeka was odd.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Stiletto]
#268399 - 11/11/11 02:32 PM
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> Whatever happened to DVD-Audio or SuperAudio CD's, they were supposed to deliver
> surround sound and higher-than-usual audio quality. It sounded promising. I haven't
> heard of any streaming/downloadable audio files or any sort of remastering being done
> to that level...
People won't buy DVDA because it reminds them of a perverted sex act. In the case of guys it means rubbing your dick against another dick, and for girls it's stretching to the point of discomfort.
But seriously, the masses don't see a tangible benefit. For cassettes over vinyl, it was recordability and robustness. For CDs over vinyl and cassettes it was robustness and absence of degradation with repeated playback. DVDA and SACD just aren't noticeably better for Joe the plumber. Also, refusing to license digital playback on PCs hurt adoption.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: igamabob]
#268405 - 11/11/11 03:52 PM
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A flash drive could actually be ideal (albeit expensive) if you include multiple formats like a folder for mp3s, a folder for uncompressed wave still in studio quality and bonus material like flyer scans and videos. But then again that could all be downloaded. I guess considering the possibilities of downloads, the switch could actually increase the quality past cds one day. It's mp3 that is the problem, not digital.
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^this. also...
[Re: krick]
#268407 - 11/11/11 04:36 PM
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most of the bands i like still actually produce vinyl records, so i'm sure that cd's will probably still be around somehow, even if they seem to disappear...
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268408 - 11/11/11 04:46 PM
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flac
do it
do it
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: jopezu]
#268409 - 11/11/11 04:53 PM
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I'm not sure if flac can currently even handle the bitrate and frequency types of studio quality stuff, but it could be updated to handle it. There would be no point in keeping stuff at cd's frequency and bitrate if cds are gone. Of course this is all what should happen, not what will happen. What will happen is probably shitty mp3s for another decade.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268411 - 11/11/11 05:17 PM
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itunes
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| redk9258 |
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268413 - 11/11/11 06:19 PM
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> A lot of the loudness wars talk sounds like over simplified bullshit to me. It's not
> all as simple as "a brickwall" and although it hurts a lot of stuff, it also helps a
> lot of other stuff. A lot of rap/hip-hop/techno sounds better with the newer
> compression methods than it would without it. And not all remastering deserves to be
> demonized either. A lot of music needs it and still hasn't gotten it or it hasn't
> been done well yet. I agree it often does screw stuff up. All the old Ride albums
> were perfect and the remasters are not much more than an interesting one-listen. I
> definitely think a lot of Floyd stuff could stand a remaster, not sure if the
> Zeppelin stuff has been done correctly yet, it has certainly been done incorrectly,
> plenty of Smiths 80's stuff needs it, tons of classics could use it.
>
> I agree about the cd switch, it would bother me if I cared much about any current
> bands. The bands I do like are the type that will have cds anyway or some weird dvd
> audio most likely.
I think the sound of the master tape should be preserved. I cannot speak for hip hop or rap because I don't listen to that type of music. If it, or any music for that matter, needs a certain amount of compression, fine. Let the producer and artist determine that and put it on the master tape that way. Once the master tape is done, the medium that you listen to should be transparent. It shouldn't add or take away anything. To me the only thing remastering should do is remove noise and repair things like tape dropouts, etc. Unfortunately, the sound of the master tape is no longer preserved as the producer / artist intended to sound. It is EQ'd, compressed, clipped, etc.
There is no reason to bring out a higher resolution medium than CD because the resolution of the CD is no longer needed the way things are mastered. Soon 1 bit on or off will be sufficient.
If you want to hear the capabilities of CD, listen to the MFSL versions of "Dark Side Of The Moon" and "The Wall". Listen to the original issue of Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms". One of the best sounding remasters I've heard is from one of my favorite bands Prism. Whoever did the remastering for that album should be hired to teach everyone else how to master CDs. It sounds fantastic.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: redk9258]
#268414 - 11/11/11 06:32 PM
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There hasn't been such thing as a master tape in decades. It's all digital at a quality that nobody outside of a studio has probably ever heard, then it gets shitted down into cd quality or mp3. Additionally things are considered like the final medium. So for years producers changed things they thought would end up with the best quality on record, tape, cd and now mp3. The changes they made for records does not produce the best option for today's digital formats, and it's absolutely possible to take the original recordings (if they still exist) and mix and master stuff for today's studio quality that sounds better than a record from the 70's beyond removing white noise type stuff. A real remaster is not taking an original mix, not always anyway, it's taking the individual tracks. You can argue that producers always got the mix and levels perfect the first time but that's not correct imo.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268417 - 11/11/11 07:21 PM
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> I'm not sure if flac can currently even handle the bitrate and frequency types of
> studio quality stuff, but it could be updated to handle it.
I've seen complete vinyl albums ripped 24-bit, 192khz WAVs, distributed in FLAC format.
It wasn't possible at the beginning, but the standard was expanded some time ago.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Foxhack]
#268418 - 11/11/11 07:32 PM
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Current high end studio quality is more like 64 or 128-bit. 24-bit is like DVD quality audio. That was studio quality over a decade ago. About the sizes, a flash drive is going to be the best choice, there was an article here a while back about them soon going into the TB range so size won't matter unless it can't be read quickly enough for playback on certain pc's or something. For download distribution and portable players we are probably stuck with lossy compression for a while but I like the idea of flash drives having both formats and bonuses personally.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Allnatural]
#268421 - 11/11/11 07:44 PM
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I suppose book publishing, movies on disc, and even magazines in physical form may vanish in our lifetime?
That would be very saddening. And furthermore, no digital playback format I've experienced has yet trumped the simple, grooved vinyl record when cared for properly. You can sample a tone 80 million times per second, it still has rough edges - similar to how a computer can never draw a perfect circle. It will always have anti-aliased, slightly jagged edges. Cymbal crashes are just too chaotic a sound for a computer to replicate properly.
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I remember buying my first CD when they were 'new' technology
[Re: Allnatural]
#268422 - 11/11/11 07:49 PM
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Saved up all my money bussing tables to buy the CD player and a pair of cheap speakers... had just enough money left over to buy ONE CD! Dare I tell you it was OMD. I was a teen, what can I say.
Got home and THEN I learned about receivers... CRAP!
My brother lent me an old one he had... (was still hooked up to his 8-track player), so I could listen to my CD.
It was awesome!
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> Saved up all my money bussing tables to buy the CD player and a pair of cheap
> speakers... had just enough money left over to buy ONE CD! Dare I tell you it was
> OMD. I was a teen, what can I say.
>
> Got home and THEN I learned about receivers... CRAP!
>
> My brother lent me an old one he had... (was still hooked up to his 8-track player),
> so I could listen to my CD.
>
> It was awesome!
Yeah man I used tapes and 8-tracks for years but when the "Compact Laser Disc" came out in the 80's it was the bomb. My very first CD was a Realistic from Radio shack, because at that time any music CD's were hard to find. My first official CD was Rush -Moving Pictures. Was the talk of the neighborhood with my new "laser disc player"... lol
[ATTACHED IMAGE]
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: yaggy]
#268439 - 11/12/11 04:29 AM
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> ... furthermore, no digital playback format I've
> experienced has yet trumped the simple, grooved vinyl record when cared for properly.
> You can sample a tone 80 million times per second, it still has rough edges - similar
> to how a computer can never draw a perfect circle. It will always have anti-aliased,
> slightly jagged edges. Cymbal crashes are just too chaotic a sound for a computer to
> replicate properly.
LPs have high frequency tracking problems, pops, clicks, and inner groove distortion. As the stylus tracks a smaller radius, there is more distortion due to not physically being able to fit all of the recorded information there. My personal feeling is that people who think LPs sound better than (properly mastered) CDs are used to this distortion. Since it is not on CDs, they sound sterile to them. It has always pissed me off that even brand new LPs were warped, had surface noise, pops, clicks, etc. But I do agree that a decent pressing of an LP can sound very good too.
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| DMala |
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268440 - 11/12/11 05:12 AM
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> Current high end studio quality is more like 64 or 128-bit.
I work in the pro audio biz and I can assure you that this is not the case. If you're doing a super high-end recording, you are most likely recording at and mixing down to 24-bit, 192kHz. Plenty of commercial recordings are done at 96kHz, 88.2kHz, and even lower sampling rates. Most DAW software processes audio internally at 32-bits and some will do 64-bit, but for a lot of reasons, you really don't get any benefit to mixing down to anything higher than 24-bit.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Allnatural]
#268441 - 11/12/11 05:28 AM
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> http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C
>
> Fuck. Please be untrue...
>
> I still pay for my music (I'm no doubt one of the few remaining) but this will turn
> me into an overnight pirate. I don't care if it's lossless and DRM-free; I'm not
> paying for a download.
They may abandon CDs, but they surely won't abandon C&Ds. 
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: DMala]
#268443 - 11/12/11 06:02 AM
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The highest I've used is 32-bit, it sounded perfect. A couple of years ago one of my professors told me equipment existed for 64 and 128, I assumed by now it was being used regularly in high end studios. I used to record at 24-bit 11 years ago in my bedroom. It's good but I don't see the point in using another format that we'd kick ourselves for using in a few decades again (24), like what we did with the cd. I admit 32-bit is fantastic but I don't see the point in not using the best available if people might call us idiots for passing on it a hundred years from now. For sure they will think we were crazy for thinking 16 bit/128 mp3 is good enough.
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| DMala |
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: redk9258]
#268444 - 11/12/11 06:03 AM
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> I think the sound of the master tape should be preserved. I cannot speak for hip hop
> or rap because I don't listen to that type of music. If it, or any music for that
> matter, needs a certain amount of compression, fine. Let the producer and artist
> determine that and put it on the master tape that way. Once the master tape is done,
> the medium that you listen to should be transparent. It shouldn't add or take away
> anything. To me the only thing remastering should do is remove noise and repair
> things like tape dropouts, etc. Unfortunately, the sound of the master tape is no
> longer preserved as the producer / artist intended to sound. It is EQ'd, compressed,
> clipped, etc.
The thing is, you wouldn't like the sound of a raw mixdown. Mastering is a little understood but critical part of the recording process. It's really something of a black art. Most mastering engineers are specialists - that's all they do.
It's kind of hard to explain what it is, exactly. Part of it is compensating for the limitations and characteristics of the format(s) the music is destined for. Part of it is giving a consistent sound to all of the tracks on an album. And part of it is just giving the recording that final layer of polish.
There are really only a few reasons for remastering, beyond making more money for the record company. The biggest is simply to master the recording for contemporary formats. A lot of the complaints about "harsh" CDs in the early days were due to record companies taking the masters that were created for vinyl and just transferring them to CD. Once you started getting recordings that were mastered specifically for CD, a lot of the harshness complaints went away. Another reason is to take advantage of technology that simply didn't exist back in the day. Finally, some recordings were simply not mastered very well. A lot of them were pushed out quickly, without a lot of care. After all, nobody knew at the time which ones would become classics and which ones would flop.
The basic problem these days is the record companies messing with the process. Someone decided about 10-15 years ago that a louder recording "popped" more, and would therefore attract more attention and sell more copies. Everyone jumped on board, and so now you have the Loudness Wars. I'm sure most mastering engineers know better, but in the end they're just employees of the record company. You can take a stand on the artistic integrity of the latest Justin Beiber album, or you can collect your paycheck and go home to your kids. 
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| Hizzout |
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70's baby, early 80's child
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Reged: 02/05/04
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Posts: 4841
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: redk9258]
#268445 - 11/12/11 06:47 AM
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Quote:
people who think LPs sound better than (properly mastered) CDs are used to this distortion. Since it is not on CDs, they sound sterile to them.
The way I've always heard it, vinyl sounds "warmer". Personally I felt the warm sound was more attributed to the 1970's era amps and big wooden speakers that were usually connected to them.
Audiophiles are a finicky bunch which is why they can sell speaker cables for so damn much.
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| DMala |
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Sleep is overrated
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Posts: 3989
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Loc: Waltham, MA
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Smitdogg]
#268446 - 11/12/11 06:56 AM
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> The highest I've used is 32-bit, it sounded perfect. A couple of years ago one of my
> professors told me equipment existed for 64 and 128, I assumed by now it was being
> used regularly in high end studios. I used to record at 24-bit 11 years ago in my
> bedroom. It's good but I don't see the point in using another format that we'd kick
> ourselves for using in a few decades again (24), like what we did with the cd. I
> admit 32-bit is fantastic but I don't see the point in not using the best available
> if people might call us idiots for passing on it a hundred years from now.
The thing is that 24-bit audio has a theoretical dynamic range of 144dB, which exceeds the capabilities of the best A/D converters currently available and pushes the limits of human hearing. Recording at higher bit depths, you are literally not capturing any additional information.
> For sure
> they will think we were crazy for thinking 16 bit/128 mp3 is good enough.
I'm not sure anyone really thinks 128kbps MP3 sounds good, as such. It's just a matter of portability and convenience being more important than quality.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: DMala]
#268447 - 11/12/11 07:00 AM
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There are thousands, maybe millions of people who think it sounds good enough. As in they aren't interested in higher quality.
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| DMala |
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Sleep is overrated
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Posts: 3989
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Loc: Waltham, MA
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Hizzout]
#268448 - 11/12/11 07:10 AM
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> people who think LPs sound better than (properly mastered) CDs are used to this
> distortion. Since it is not on CDs, they sound sterile to them.
>
> The way I've always heard it, vinyl sounds "warmer". Personally I felt the warm sound
> was more attributed to the 1970's era amps and big wooden speakers that were usually
> connected to them.
When people talk about "warm" they're usually referring to even harmonic distortion. Old tube amps will definitely color the sound, but vinyl has a particular sound even when you run it through modern equipment. I think redk9258 nailed it. It's kind of like guitar amps. They could make an amp these days that reproduces the sound of a guitar perfectly, but we all use 70-year-old technology because every is just used to the ways in which it distorts the sound.
> Audiophiles are a finicky bunch which is why they can sell speaker cables for so damn
> much.
"Audiophiles" have been repeatedly proven to be a bunch of clueless yahoos who will throw money at every snake-oil salesman who comes along.
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Re: CDs to be abandoned by major labels in 2012
[Re: Allnatural]
#268456 - 11/12/11 04:11 PM
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> http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C
>
> Fuck. Please be untrue...
>
> I still pay for my music (I'm no doubt one of the few remaining) but this will turn
> me into an overnight pirate. I don't care if it's lossless and DRM-free; I'm not
> paying for a download.
I still enjoy perusing through the cd's at a store versus doing it on a computer too, but I saw the writing on the wall a few years ago when all the record stores in various malls I visit closed and then finally the Best Buy located next to the King of Prussia mall started to shrink the area dedicated to cd's. After that I finally bit the bullet and bought an iPod Touch.
Kevin Eshbach
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