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Firehawke
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Thinking about an upgrade in September.
#260625 - 07/24/11 01:08 AM


I'm going to have $600 saved up to put together two system upgrades, one for me, one for my father. That's covering CPU, RAM, and new motherboard for each.

Tom's Hardware gives some pretty good numbers, but they don't even remotely touch the MAME-side performance numbers I'd like to see on benchmarking.

So, what should I be looking at? I know you're going to say Intel, but if I decide to go AMD (heat is a particular concern-- I live in Phoenix!) what would you suggest on that end as well?



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B2K24
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260659 - 07/24/11 06:23 AM


I'm really happy with my ASUS P6X58D premium w/ i7 930 OC to 4.0 GhZ however there much too expensive for your $600 budget.

If you're going Intel you might consider looking into dual core Wolfdale CPUs that cost under $100 each for 3+ GhZ
E6500 ---> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116093

If you plan on going AMD they have several decent options for right around $100 per CPU

---> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103872


good cases and cooling are a MUST for your Arizona heat.
I'm very pleased with the results I get from my Venomus-X-RT
I have 2 scythe fans in push/pull config.
---> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835109030

http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/p...venomous-x.html



Don Tacos
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260664 - 07/24/11 07:07 AM


Don't waste your money with C2D series, Ivy Bridge will be coming out. The new 3D transistors will make a huge difference in MAME.

I can't say that I know much about the AMD side, but in terms of cooling, you can't go wrong with the Antec 300 case. It's relatively cheap, has decent cable management, and airflow out the wazoo.



redk9258
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260668 - 07/24/11 07:49 AM


If you do any compiling, I would recommend at least a Core 2 Quad. I would stick with Intel for MAME at this time. If you can get an i7, I would go for that. I don't think AMDs run super hot like they used to. Of course you will want good cooling on whatever you get.



Quantum Leaper
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Don Tacos]
#260675 - 07/24/11 08:50 AM


> Don't waste your money with C2D series, Ivy Bridge will be coming out. The new 3D
> transistors will make a huge difference in MAME.
>

I learned long time ago, never wait, buy the best you can with the money you have today, or you will always be waiting for the next best thing to come out.

Edited by Quantum Leaper (07/24/11 08:51 AM)



ReadOnly
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260688 - 07/24/11 04:16 PM


Forget graphic card, you don't have enough money for a decent one.

Edited by ReadOnly (07/24/11 04:47 PM)



Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: ReadOnly]
#260690 - 07/24/11 04:18 PM


Not very constructive, sir.

I'm pretty sure I can get at least a 15-20% boost from what I have right now in under $300, easily.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: redk9258]
#260691 - 07/24/11 04:19 PM


Nah, it's more the Intel ones that tend to run hot.

At least, AMDs haven't run hot since the end of the Athlon XP days-- and they were still outclassed in heat generation by Intel, where the top end P4s would thermally throttle if the heatsink and gunk weren't precisely perfect.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Quantum Leaper]
#260692 - 07/24/11 04:23 PM


I'd say that's a "yes and no" proposition. If you know there's a major game changer coming within a *reasonable* amount of time, it's often better to wait a bit-- and typically you know about the game changers a bit in advance.

Sandy Bridge was a good example therein, though it was hampered by serious problems with the launch.

Nothing sucks like buying a motherboard right before the socket and/or RAM type gets obsoleted.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: B2K24]
#260693 - 07/24/11 04:29 PM


Well, I did say just motherboard, cpu, and RAM. I just finished doing video card upgrades (this project has been a three month one, touched off a bit early because my GeForce 9800GT burned out a few weeks ago)

Considering I'm coming from an AM2+ X4 at a 15% OC to 2.9, Just about anything at the $100+ range looks like it'll be at least a 10-15% boost over what I have. Really, the main concern is trying to get "the best I can" with MAME within the limits I have. I'm not going to be able to match RB's rig-- I was just looking at his benchmarks and metaphorically crying in my beer.

My father's rig is a hand-me-down from myself, and it's even older but still AM2. Just single core, though. I really can't put off the upgrade any further to save additional cash, considering the series of financial crises that I'm pushing through (long story, don't ask-- I'm not throwing cash in that's needed elsewhere, but I'm not going to be able to effectively save up for at least another year or two minimum. I need this stopgap upgrade badly)



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ReadOnly
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260716 - 07/25/11 09:51 AM


Sorry if it was a bit rough, but let's face it, high end gfx cards are very expensive.

Edited by ReadOnly (07/25/11 09:52 AM)



R. Belmont
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260722 - 07/25/11 04:58 PM


> Nah, it's more the Intel ones that tend to run hot.
>
> At least, AMDs haven't run hot since the end of the Athlon XP days-- and they were
> still outclassed in heat generation by Intel, where the top end P4s would thermally
> throttle if the heatsink and gunk weren't precisely perfect.

The C2Ds ran a lot cooler, and the Sandy Bridges idle at 1.6 GHz when you aren't running anything intense. Mine, which is overclocked to 4.8 GHz when it needs it, idles less than 10 degrees above ambient when I'm reading email and browsing web sites and that sort of thing. And that's on air cooling. It's kind of amazing - Intel made heavily overclocked rigs perfectly livable for non-gaming use with that change



Bryan Ischo
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: redk9258]
#260727 - 07/25/11 06:29 PM


> If you do any compiling, I would recommend at least a Core 2 Quad. I would stick with
> Intel for MAME at this time. If you can get an i7, I would go for that. I don't think
> AMDs run super hot like they used to. Of course you will want good cooling on
> whatever you get.

If you're doing compiling I recommend an AMD Phenom II x6. For compiling, the extra cores are perfectly utilized and you get a linear speedup with the number of cores. You can't compile faster for less money than you can with a 6 core processor like the Phenom II x6.

I would not be surprised if some Intel quad cores can match the AMD 6 cores in compiling, but the Intel quad core would not be in the same price bracket as the AMD. So once again, if you're compiling, you get your best bang-for-the-buck with a Phenom II x6.

For MAME runtime though, you'll do best with high IPC per core, and AMD can't touch Intel there at anything other than low end price ranges.



Bryan Ischo
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Quantum Leaper]
#260728 - 07/25/11 06:32 PM


> > Don't waste your money with C2D series, Ivy Bridge will be coming out. The new 3D
> > transistors will make a huge difference in MAME.

How exactly is transistor topography going to make any difference in MAME?



R. Belmont
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Bryan Ischo]
#260731 - 07/25/11 07:25 PM


> > > Don't waste your money with C2D series, Ivy Bridge will be coming out. The new 3D
> > > transistors will make a huge difference in MAME.
>
> How exactly is transistor topography going to make any difference in MAME?

Because they claim it's more or less solved both switching power and leakage, meaning potentially order-of-magnitude higher clocks at the same or less power/heat than today. I'll believe that when I see it, of course



Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: ReadOnly]
#260732 - 07/25/11 07:25 PM


Er.. huh? I'm talking about CPU, motherboard, and RAM.

Already got a pretty decent video card in place.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Bryan Ischo]
#260733 - 07/25/11 07:29 PM


Yeah, and you have to consider what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.

Even if you're a MAME developer, you're probably going to see more utility on the Intel side considering you'd still be touching higher end drivers from time to time and the improved compile time isn't likely to be that much of an improvement compared to execution speed. A bit hard to describe well, but I think you get the idea.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#260734 - 07/25/11 07:33 PM


Looks like Q1 of next year at the absolute earliest, and no official release date that I can see.

I can definitely see C2D looking like a bad decision, but SB should still be relatively stable for at least the near future.



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Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#260735 - 07/25/11 07:38 PM


Thanks. I knew the temps had dropped post-P4, but I wasn't aware of quite how far. I could see the desire for an aftermarket cooler here, where even air conditioners can have some difficulty keeping ambient temps evened out, but it sounds like even the stock cooler would be workable.

Like I said, I wasn't expecting a miracle on the low end, but I figured I'd see what the general opinion was. If I do end up going Intel, I'm probably going to miss having onboard video. Yes, I know, I just said something heretical. I've had two video cards die on me in the last five years, and in both cases I've had to resort to the onboard video for awhile. I'm coming off the second case of that just now-- it's part of what's actually spurring this upgrade run.



Bryan Ischo
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260740 - 07/25/11 09:00 PM


> Yeah, and you have to consider what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.
>
> Even if you're a MAME developer, you're probably going to see more utility on the
> Intel side considering you'd still be touching higher end drivers from time to time
> and the improved compile time isn't likely to be that much of an improvement compared
> to execution speed. A bit hard to describe well, but I think you get the idea.

For my purposes, the vast majority of the tasks that I do on a daily basis is not significantly affected by CPU performance; most modern CPUs are indistinguishable when it comes to things like surfing the web, playing movies, running normal applications, etc.

The one really CPU intensive activity that I do normally is to compile, and 6 cores is just unbeatable there. I have heard that video encoding and some other activities are similarly affected.

Running emulators is definitely not something that is helped by more cores, but then again, only a handful of the most difficult-to-emulate games don't already run at full speed on even modest processors.

I'm curious to know what applications you use regularly that need very high per-core IPC, and for which the 30% better single core IPC of a Sandy Bridge vs. Phenom II is perceptible? Honestly really just curious here; I have no affinity for either Intel or AMD (whatever does the job best), but in my experience I can't tell a difference between processors except when the extra cores come into play, and I'm wondering what other people are doing that brings them to a different conclusion than the one I draw.

Oh I should mention, and hopefully not to open another huge can of worms, but system and application start-up time is another big one for me, which is why I only buy SSDs now and will never buy a spinning disc hard drive again.

My home system (built in October 2010 using some pretty sweet pre-Xmas-season deals) is an AMD Phenom II x6 1075T w/4 GB of DDR3 1600 Mhz CAS7 memory (I run Linux with an efficient window manager and 4 GB is way way more than enough for my needs, others with more heavyweight desktop environments need more) and an 80 GB Intel SSD. I honestly can't think of anything I do on that system that I feel needs more power, except maybe emulating some of the harder-to-emulate games, but I don't even do that regularly, as I don't really care much about those games.

My recently purchased laptop with a Sandy Bridge (i7-2630qm) processor disappointed me a little; I thought that because it was Sandy Bridge that it would compare very favorably to the Phenom II, but in fact it's about 1/2 as fast at compiling MAME as the Phenom II. I thought that 4 Intel Sandy Bridge cores at 2 Ghz might be close to the performance of 6 Phenom II cores at 3 Ghz but it didn't turn out that way. Maybe because the Sandy Bridge is a mobile part?



Bryan Ischo
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#260741 - 07/25/11 09:06 PM


> > > > Don't waste your money with C2D series, Ivy Bridge will be coming out. The new
> 3D
> > > > transistors will make a huge difference in MAME.
> >
> > How exactly is transistor topography going to make any difference in MAME?
>
> Because they claim it's more or less solved both switching power and leakage, meaning
> potentially order-of-magnitude higher clocks at the same or less power/heat than
> today. I'll believe that when I see it, of course

I can see how better clock rates would help performance in MAME; I just thought it was odd that the transistor topography itself was being touted as the reason for improved MAME performance. But probably I was reading the post too literally.



Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Bryan Ischo]
#260742 - 07/25/11 09:09 PM


Honestly, emulation in general. Most systems can't be multi-core split well at all, as MAME demonstrates clearly.

Most of my native PC gaming won't show a huge difference between platforms-- in fact, I'm rarely CPU limited in most native games I'm playing right now on this existing rig. Therefore, about the only reason to push forward is to increase my capabilities for the future and to improve existing performance on outlying platforms like MAME.

For reference, my existing rig is an Athlon X3 (with fourth core unlocked, fully stable; the CPU reports itself as an X4 thus) overclocked at a 15% profile from the BIOS to 2.9GHz, 4GB of DDR2, a Radeon HD6850, and a dualboot of Windows 7-64 and Windows XP-32.

The only reason for the XP32 is that I'm involved in some video work where Flash Media Encoder simply won't stop dropping frames on Windows 7 but works fine on XP.



mogli
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: Firehawke]
#260836 - 07/27/11 01:19 AM


>(heat is a particular concern-- I live in Phoenix!)

Perhaps you're living outside in a hut....or maybe have no A/C....?



Firehawke
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Re: Thinking about an upgrade in September. new [Re: mogli]
#260863 - 07/27/11 04:57 AM


You really like trying to pick fights? I won't bite.


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