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ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
#244387 - 01/24/11 08:35 AM
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This is an audacious claim. However, this person seems to have the chops to pull something off....
"Hopefully at some point there will be no question as to which base version is superior."
http://shmupmame.wordpress.com/
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Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
The Culture
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: mogli]
#244394 - 01/24/11 09:09 AM
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maybe these 'lagless' fanatics should go back to a Japanese arcade and try some of the games on the original hardware. If their so-called lag is due to sprite buffering, it is simply the way hardware works...
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italie |
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MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: etabeta]
#244396 - 01/24/11 09:14 AM
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> maybe these 'lagless' fanatics should go back to a Japanese arcade and try some of
> the games on the original hardware. If their so-called lag is due to sprite
> buffering, it is simply the way hardware works...
Wow, the blog sounds like someone I know from a few threads down...
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: mogli]
#244416 - 01/24/11 04:08 PM
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> The Cave pgm emulation is now backported to mame99 using the new romset conventions (as of mame 141), I also modified the sound driver and the improvement is very noticeable compared to the mame141 driver. The only remaining “bug” with Cave pgm is that the coin slots are not working in the newer games, I added nvram files with the games set to freeplay, you can also insert coins using the service switch, which is button “9″ by default.
Censored?
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"Any company has no power to stop people emulating"
MAME is the emulator of no giving in the pressure from any company even if they don't allow
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: ShimaPong]
#244419 - 01/24/11 05:14 PM
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These issues are now fixed in the current version. I didn't post about my build here because it's still at a preliminary state.
Obviously this is not the best build for emulation accuracy (as it removes sprite buffers). But what it does is make the games feel more like pcb for competitive players.
Anyone who owns a pcb for competitive play will tell you that buffered mame + OS latency adds up to much more lag than the real thing, which is why many players prefer to buy pcbs. This build is aimed at making the games "usable" for competitive play.
Edited by nimitz (01/24/11 05:26 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: italie]
#244430 - 01/24/11 05:47 PM
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> > maybe these 'lagless' fanatics should go back to a Japanese arcade and try some of
> > the games on the original hardware. If their so-called lag is due to sprite
> > buffering, it is simply the way hardware works...
>
> Wow, the blog sounds like someone I know from a few threads down...
Yes, we've made that connection as well 
I adore that he claims .99 is superior because save states are enabled for all games, even though save states *work properly* for a lot more games in current. I remember being that age and knowing it all, I really do ;-)
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: R. Belmont]
#244432 - 01/24/11 05:52 PM
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I am willing to bet that I am older than you :P
As for savestates, I am aware that the new implementation is far superior and hopefully the drivers I care for will be added one day.
Edited by nimitz (01/24/11 05:52 PM)
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: mogli]
#244433 - 01/24/11 06:02 PM
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So, it's really possible that so many players can notice the difference of one frame difference between input and screen refresh?
I'm not saying it's not, but 16ms seems a very short time to: Look at the screen, assess the situation, decide to move, move the joystick, look at the screen again and compare to the last time you saw it and say "HA!, why didn't my ship move?" (I know looking at the screen is a continuous task)
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: franciscohs]
#244435 - 01/24/11 06:07 PM
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It is indeed surprising, the human body is an amazing machine.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: nimitz]
#244440 - 01/24/11 06:24 PM
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> It is indeed surprising, the human body is an amazing machine.
Funny, I was just reading this Mental chronometry and your claims are far fetched, like 10 fold at least.
Either you wouldn't pass a blind test or you should go get yourself analyzed, since you seem to be some kind of phenomenon.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: franciscohs]
#244442 - 01/24/11 06:28 PM
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From the shmups forum thread:
Quote:
You can actually take the test : Input lag ABX blind test
(thanks to moozooh for the link)
Everyone I know who took that test was able to tell the difference between 1 and 2 frames of lag with close to 100% accuracy only after a few tries (a complete test is 20 times IIRC)
Edited by nimitz (01/24/11 06:31 PM)
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| DMala |
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Sleep is overrated
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: franciscohs]
#244444 - 01/24/11 07:20 PM
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> I'm not saying it's not, but 16ms seems a very short time to: Look at the screen,
> assess the situation, decide to move, move the joystick, look at the screen again and
> compare to the last time you saw it and say "HA!, why didn't my ship move?" (I know
> looking at the screen is a continuous task)
FWIW, there is a similar issue with digital audio. When you are monitoring a live signal being processed digitally, latency from the audio drivers and other steps in the signal chain affects the time between striking a note and actually hearing it.
From experience, I can tell you that 16ms is right around the upper edge of usability for playing an instrument. Anyone with any experience with an instrument can easily tell the difference between 16ms and, say, 6ms. For a singer monitoring their own voice through headphones, the threshold is even lower.
I have no idea if this issue exists for MAME or not, I'm not nearly good enough at shmups to be able to tell the difference. I can totally believe, however, that 16ms is enough to throw off the feel of a game for someone who is attuned to it and used to lower latency.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: ShimaPong]
#244447 - 01/24/11 07:44 PM
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I think it's pointless at this point. People are just too stupid for me to deal with.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Smitdogg]
#244454 - 01/24/11 08:30 PM
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Please go on and share your infinite wisdom :P
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: nimitz]
#244455 - 01/24/11 08:42 PM
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It's called "if something isn't mentioned in whatsnew, maybe it wasn't mentioned for a reason".
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: DMala]
#244463 - 01/24/11 09:39 PM
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> From experience, I can tell you that 16ms is right around the upper edge of usability
> for playing an instrument. Anyone with any experience with an instrument can easily
> tell the difference between 16ms and, say, 6ms. For a singer monitoring their own
> voice through headphones, the threshold is even lower.
And for a drummer it's lower still.
~5ms latency is just bearable when playing MIDI drums.
16ms is impossible unless you're deaf or not a musician.
S
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| FatTrucker |
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Randomly pressing buttons in hope of success.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Sune]
#244472 - 01/24/11 10:15 PM
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One of my cats is deaf and he's not a musician. I asked him about the latency thing but he just yawned, stretched and went back to sleep.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: franciscohs]
#244475 - 01/24/11 11:09 PM
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> > It is indeed surprising, the human body is an amazing machine.
>
> Funny, I was just reading this Mental chronometry and your claims are far fetched,
> like 10 fold at least.
>
> Either you wouldn't pass a blind test or you should go get yourself analyzed, since
> you seem to be some kind of phenomenon.
No, you're just missing something: we're extremely good at prediction. You know when you hit the drum when the sound is going to reach you given your movement. If it happens at a different time than expected you notice the difference. It takes the usual reaction time before the feeling that something is off reaches your conscience, but that feeling requires *way* less than a shift of RT to happen.
Another funny case is virtual reality helmets. We notice *any* difference between the head turning and the scene moving. Which makes having an unnoticeable computer in the middle hard.
OG.
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: FatTrucker]
#244490 - 01/25/11 02:55 AM
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> One of my cats is deaf and he's not a musician. I asked him about the latency thing
> but he just yawned, stretched and went back to sleep.
That'll teach you to not talk to animals.
Anyway I don't understand what you're saying so, in case it's some kind of joke on my expense, fuck you too.
S
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#244530 - 01/25/11 11:58 AM
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> > > It is indeed surprising, the human body is an amazing machine.
> >
> > Funny, I was just reading this Mental chronometry and your claims are far fetched,
> > like 10 fold at least.
> >
> > Either you wouldn't pass a blind test or you should go get yourself analyzed, since
> > you seem to be some kind of phenomenon.
>
> No, you're just missing something: we're extremely good at prediction. You know when
> you hit the drum when the sound is going to reach you given your movement. If it
> happens at a different time than expected you notice the difference. It takes the
> usual reaction time before the feeling that something is off reaches your conscience,
> but that feeling requires *way* less than a shift of RT to happen.
>
> Another funny case is virtual reality helmets. We notice *any* difference between the
> head turning and the scene moving. Which makes having an unnoticeable computer in the
> middle hard.
>
> OG.
Another example is being involved in an activity, and then hearing something not part of that activity, perhaps it's unfamiliar even - and stopping and knowing what it is in the same instant, and being able to respond if necessary.
Yes, this is good for ninja episodes....and sex. OHHHHH
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Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
The Culture
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#244541 - 01/25/11 03:11 PM
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> No, you're just missing something: we're extremely good at prediction. You know when
> you hit the drum when the sound is going to reach you given your movement. If it
> happens at a different time than expected you notice the difference. It takes the
> usual reaction time before the feeling that something is off reaches your conscience,
> but that feeling requires *way* less than a shift of RT to happen.
>
> Another funny case is virtual reality helmets. We notice *any* difference between the
> head turning and the scene moving. Which makes having an unnoticeable computer in the
> middle hard.
Got it, that's interesting, and makes sense actually...
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: nimitz]
#244550 - 01/25/11 04:14 PM
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> I am willing to bet that I am older than you :P
Unlikely. Nobody over 30 uses V-for-Vendetta imagery unironically
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: R. Belmont]
#244599 - 01/25/11 11:05 PM
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> > I am willing to bet that I am older than you :P
>
> Unlikely. Nobody over 30 uses V-for-Vendetta imagery unironically
Wrong reference, try 20 years earlier.
Edited by nimitz (01/25/11 11:05 PM)
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Smitdogg]
#244685 - 01/26/11 10:02 PM
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> It's called "if something isn't mentioned in whatsnew, maybe it wasn't mentioned for
> a reason".
Sounds like Jesse Ventura has new material for an upcoming episode of Conspiracy Theory...
Kevin Eshbach
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: keshbach1]
#244686 - 01/26/11 10:05 PM
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I hope you're joking in more ways than one. It was obvious to begin with but ever since Belmont flat out stated it, there hasn't been any ambiguity at all. BTW "you've got mail". That means I want your memory of the AOL sound byte to play in your head. I hope it worked.
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Smitdogg]
#244688 - 01/26/11 10:10 PM
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> I hope you're joking in more ways than one. It was obvious to begin with but ever
> since Belmont flat out stated it, there hasn't been any ambiguity at all. BTW "you've
> got mail". That means I want your memory of the AOL sound byte to play in your head.
> I hope it worked.
Yes, I'm totally joking.
Though I'm sure some person reading this thread really does believe there is some sort of conspiracy happening and has been happening since MAMETM was born.
Kevin Eshbach
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: keshbach1]
#244691 - 01/26/11 10:16 PM
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You mean like how Nicola purposefully didn't emulate MCUs on Taito Classics so people would think MAME was accurate on them and not post bug reports?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: ShmupMAME.....this is curious.....
[Re: Smitdogg]
#244692 - 01/26/11 10:46 PM
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> You mean like how Nicola purposefully didn't emulate MCUs on Taito Classics so people
> would think MAME was accurate on them and not post bug reports?
If that was a conspiracy, the major harmful effect would be boring people to death.
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Nonsense, Poopypants
[Re: R. Belmont]
#244698 - 01/26/11 11:12 PM
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