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Pages: 1 italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... #241002 - 12/11/10 11:19 PM Attachment: SAM_1358.JPG 1939 KB (1 downloads) Reply Something majestic about framing... [ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE] italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241003 - 12/11/10 11:31 PM Attachment: SAM_1365cr.jpg 342 KB (1 downloads) Reply I was up in (on) the attic thinking..."Christ, I could fit like 30 rubbermaid containers up here easy." After some quick math I realized that I could fit 25 on each side of the attic, and STILL have roughly 14'x 30' of open floorspace in the center....and then I smiled. [ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE] Tomu Breidah No Problems, Only Solutions Reged: 08/14/04 Posts: 6819 Loc: Neither here, nor there. Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241004 - 12/12/10 01:38 AM Reply > I was up in (on) the attic thinking..."Christ, I could fit like 30 rubbermaid > containers up here easy." After some quick math I realized that I could fit 25 on > each side of the attic, and STILL have roughly 14'x 30' of open floorspace in the > center....and then I smiled. *gives a Tim the Toolman Taylor 'grunt' of approval* LEVEL-4 Breetai Semi-Lurker "full time drinker" Reged: 11/02/03 Posts: 419 Loc: Omaha Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241010 - 12/12/10 06:35 AM Reply > I was up in (on) the attic thinking..."Christ, I could fit like 30 rubbermaid > containers up here easy." After some quick math I realized that I could fit 25 on > each side of the attic, and STILL have roughly 14'x 30' of open floorspace in the > center....and then I smiled. You have picked the nicest time of year for this project. DMala Sleep is overrated Reged: 05/09/05 Posts: 3989 Loc: Waltham, MA Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: Breetai] #241013 - 12/12/10 07:59 AM Reply > You have picked the nicest time of year for this project. Ha, that was my first thought. I dunno what it's like there, but the last few weeks around here, you'd have had better luck carving the structure out of ice. italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: DMala] #241014 - 12/12/10 08:37 AM Reply > > You have picked the nicest time of year for this project. > > Ha, that was my first thought. I dunno what it's like there, but the last few weeks > around here, you'd have had better luck carving the structure out of ice. Mitigating circumstances. Way too many to list, but it had to be started ASAP. I'll have it sheathed by Christmas, so that should take some of the bite out of the working conditions.... BIOS-D MAME Fan Reged: 08/07/06 Posts: 1688 Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241015 - 12/12/10 09:08 AM Reply > Something majestic about framing... I've been curious about this one for years. What is it with wood for anything? Is it because is cheaper than concrete, or is it because it's easier to renew in short terms? I have the impression you would always go with more durable materials specially in zones temperatures reach below 0°C or in places constantly exposed to natural disasters like floods or tornadoes. Or perhaps it has to do with material availability? Governmental regulations? Here in Mexico is easier even for low class workers to buy material (concrete, sand, brick, etc.) every four kilometers and build walls, roofs and ceilings because statistically there's always a familiar or friend who is a mason. For the same reason our frame windows and doors are made with ferrous metals and protected with bars to prevent burglars to get in (if possible or at least make it difficult). I know there's an obvious and logic reason to that, but as i've never been in USA is difficult for me to find it. BTW, nice framing you got there. CrapBoardSoftware My real name is banned dickhead Reged: 01/03/06 Posts: 1250 Loc: Wisconsin Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: BIOS-D] #241019 - 12/12/10 01:50 PM Reply > > Something majestic about framing... > > I've been curious about this one for years. What is it with wood for anything? Is it > because is cheaper than concrete, or is it because it's easier to renew in short > terms? > > I have the impression you would always go with more durable materials specially in > zones temperatures reach below 0°C or in places constantly exposed to natural > disasters like floods or tornadoes. > > Or perhaps it has to do with material availability? Governmental regulations? Here in > Mexico is easier even for low class workers to buy material (concrete, sand, brick, > etc.) every four kilometers and build walls, roofs and ceilings because statistically > there's always a familiar or friend who is a mason. For the same reason our frame > windows and doors are made with ferrous metals and protected with bars to prevent > burglars to get in (if possible or at least make it difficult). > > I know there's an obvious and logic reason to that, but as i've never been in USA is > difficult for me to find it. BTW, nice framing you got there. Thanks for bringing this up. I wonder for some years now why in the US (Canada also?) there are _so many_ buildings made mostly of wood/lumber. And especially i'm wondering how's about the heat insulation. At least in New England, there's often not much in the way than an (usually black) insulation foil or something like that. On e of my friends who moved there from Miami wonders why she now has to pay almost $400 a month for the heating... oO Here in Germany we even insulate all those buildings that are standing for like 10 decades now, and we do it like this, using styrofoam underneath the render/plaster: italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: CrapBoardSoftware] #241027 - 12/12/10 05:53 PM Reply > > > Something majestic about framing... > > > > I've been curious about this one for years. What is it with wood for anything? Is > it > > because is cheaper than concrete, or is it because it's easier to renew in short > > terms? > > > > I have the impression you would always go with more durable materials specially in > > zones temperatures reach below 0°C or in places constantly exposed to natural > > disasters like floods or tornadoes. > > > > Or perhaps it has to do with material availability? Governmental regulations? Here > in > > Mexico is easier even for low class workers to buy material (concrete, sand, brick, > > etc.) every four kilometers and build walls, roofs and ceilings because > statistically > > there's always a familiar or friend who is a mason. For the same reason our frame > > windows and doors are made with ferrous metals and protected with bars to prevent > > burglars to get in (if possible or at least make it difficult). > > > > I know there's an obvious and logic reason to that, but as i've never been in USA > is > > difficult for me to find it. BTW, nice framing you got there. > > Thanks for bringing this up. I wonder for some years now why in the US (Canada also?) > there are _so many_ buildings made mostly of wood/lumber. And especially i'm > wondering how's about the heat insulation. At least in New England, there's often not > much in the way than an (usually black) insulation foil or something like that. On e > of my friends who moved there from Miami wonders why she now has to pay almost $400 a > month for the heating... oO > > Here in Germany we even insulate all those buildings that are standing for like 10 > decades now, and we do it like this, using styrofoam underneath the render/plaster: I've wondered the same thing, I can only give a few thoughts... To frame, insulate, cover, and finish a 8' x 8' x 6" (2.5m x 2.5m x .1524m) wall with wood it would cost me about $75. To simply pour the same wall with no finish it would cost me $150. Those are "DIY" costs, but the labor is about the same in either case. Old school insulation was for the most part non existent. That black/silver foil mentioned was about it (That is exactly what I pulled off the old garage (built in 1920). If you were lucky you had some newspaper shoved into your walls as well. These days you have a very thick cladding of fiberglass shoved in-between the studs. If done right it's pretty decent. I'd imagine weight and soil conditions have a bit to do with it as well. As far as natural disasters, a wood frame done right with proper bracing and ties should survive a moderate tornado / hurricane. Flooding...well that is the reason my stem wall is 1ft above the rest of my yard...so yeah, advantage concrete there.... Just my 2 cents, maybe someone in the industry can add more. Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241030 - 12/12/10 07:03 PM Reply > > > > Something majestic about framing... > > > > > > I've been curious about this one for years. What is it with wood for anything? Is > > it > > > because is cheaper than concrete, or is it because it's easier to renew in short > > > terms? > > > > > > I have the impression you would always go with more durable materials specially > in > > > zones temperatures reach below 0°C or in places constantly exposed to natural > > > disasters like floods or tornadoes. > > > > > > Or perhaps it has to do with material availability? Governmental regulations? > Here > > in > > > Mexico is easier even for low class workers to buy material (concrete, sand, > brick, > > > etc.) every four kilometers and build walls, roofs and ceilings because > > statistically > > > there's always a familiar or friend who is a mason. For the same reason our frame > > > windows and doors are made with ferrous metals and protected with bars to prevent > > > burglars to get in (if possible or at least make it difficult). > > > > > > I know there's an obvious and logic reason to that, but as i've never been in USA > > is > > > difficult for me to find it. BTW, nice framing you got there. > > > > Thanks for bringing this up. I wonder for some years now why in the US (Canada > also?) > > there are _so many_ buildings made mostly of wood/lumber. And especially i'm > > wondering how's about the heat insulation. At least in New England, there's often > not > > much in the way than an (usually black) insulation foil or something like that. On > e > > of my friends who moved there from Miami wonders why she now has to pay almost $400 > a > > month for the heating... oO > > > > Here in Germany we even insulate all those buildings that are standing for like 10 > > decades now, and we do it like this, using styrofoam underneath the render/plaster: > > I've wondered the same thing, I can only give a few thoughts... > > To frame, insulate, cover, and finish a 8' x 8' x 6" (2.5m x 2.5m x .1524m) wall with > wood it would cost me about $75. To simply pour the same wall with no finish it would > cost me $150. Those are "DIY" costs, but the labor is about the same in either case. > > Old school insulation was for the most part non existent. That black/silver foil > mentioned was about it (That is exactly what I pulled off the old garage (built in > 1920). If you were lucky you had some newspaper shoved into your walls as well. These > days you have a very thick cladding of fiberglass shoved in-between the studs. If > done right it's pretty decent. > > I'd imagine weight and soil conditions have a bit to do with it as well. As far as > natural disasters, a wood frame done right with proper bracing and ties should > survive a moderate tornado / hurricane. Flooding...well that is the reason my stem > wall is 1ft above the rest of my yard...so yeah, advantage concrete there.... > > Just my 2 cents, maybe someone in the industry can add more. Hm. I have some friends in commercial construction, I can ask them... - Stiletto redk9258 Regular Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 3968 Loc: Troy, Illinois USA Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: italie] #241031 - 12/12/10 07:06 PM Reply My 2 cents.. Wood structures are probably dominant in North America because of the abundance of lumber we had. People have learned how to build with it and done right lasts a long, long time. Older homes were not insulated very well because it was cheap to heat them when they were built. Modern homes are well insulated and sometimes built so tight, they have to have an air exchanger to bring fresh air into the house. In my area, I have starting to see a few homes built of concrete that is poured into Styrofoam forms. The forms stay in place and double as insulation. I think the main reason more homes are not built from concrete is cost. It has to be cheaper to build with lumber than concrete. Also a home that is properly built of lumber will survive much better than a masonry building during an earthquake because it can flex. lharms MAME Fan Reged: 01/07/06 Posts: 908 Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: CrapBoardSoftware] #241054 - 12/13/10 03:29 AM Reply It is about strength to weight and cost. A 10-15 ft run of wood is fairly light and more importantly flexible. Buildings are not static. They literally float in the dirt. But considering dirt is also fairly unforgiving the house flexes. For example at the top of the Sears tower (or whatever it is called these days) you can feel the building sway in the wind. Same thing with the balloon type construction done these days. As the wind blows on the house they move a bit. If you build a building that is too tight it would literally tear itself apart in a few years. Build it to wobbly and it will do the same. Also cost is a big issue. Wood is still relatively cheaper. A steel i-beam costs quite a bit. So a standard size house would cost 10x for the same size. Concrete while good for insulation is actually a fairly crummy building material. It can take a HUGE amount of static stress. But when it goes it shatters. Wood bends quite a bit before giving out. Concrete is also *VERY* heavy. So you cant hire a small work crew to put your house together. Start using steel i-beams and concrete you need to hire cranes, metal workers, and cement workers to put it together. So material wise wood is *MUCH* cheaper both cost wise and labor wise. If you want insulation, buy insulation. The 1 1/2 inch foam core board is a R-8 (which is 'ok') or fiberglass batt insulation (starts at r-10). It is also pretty flexible, light and cheap per sq ft (all key in construction). However it is not very strong so not used for primary load bearing in construction. Most insulation is not about thickness but about creating air pockets. For example triple pane windows. Usually 3 or more layers of air (which btw is an excellent insulator). If you are getting 400 dollar gas bills get more insulation and seal up around the windows a bit better. But as someone else mentioned make sure you have good air transfer to the outside, or you could end up with a 'sick' house. Also if it is an older house (1980s down) it probably is all single pane windows. Just replacing the windows can save you a lot (both summer and winter). CrapBoardSoftware My real name is banned dickhead Reged: 01/03/06 Posts: 1250 Loc: Wisconsin Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: lharms] #241118 - 12/13/10 09:52 PM Reply > It is about strength to weight and cost. > > A 10-15 ft run of wood is fairly light and more importantly flexible. Buildings are > not static. They literally float in the dirt. But considering dirt is also fairly > unforgiving the house flexes. > > For example at the top of the Sears tower (or whatever it is called these days) you > can feel the building sway in the wind. Same thing with the balloon type construction > done these days. As the wind blows on the house they move a bit. > > If you build a building that is too tight it would literally tear itself apart in a > few years. Build it to wobbly and it will do the same. > > Also cost is a big issue. Wood is still relatively cheaper. A steel i-beam costs > quite a bit. So a standard size house would cost 10x for the same size. > > Concrete while good for insulation is actually a fairly crummy building material. It > can take a HUGE amount of static stress. But when it goes it shatters. Wood bends > quite a bit before giving out. Concrete is also *VERY* heavy. So you cant hire a > small work crew to put your house together. Start using steel i-beams and concrete > you need to hire cranes, metal workers, and cement workers to put it together. > > So material wise wood is *MUCH* cheaper both cost wise and labor wise. > > If you want insulation, buy insulation. The 1 1/2 inch foam core board is a R-8 > (which is 'ok') or fiberglass batt insulation (starts at r-10). It is also pretty > flexible, light and cheap per sq ft (all key in construction). However it is not very > strong so not used for primary load bearing in construction. Most insulation is not > about thickness but about creating air pockets. For example triple pane windows. > Usually 3 or more layers of air (which btw is an excellent insulator). > > If you are getting 400 dollar gas bills get more insulation and seal up around the > windows a bit better. But as someone else mentioned make sure you have good air > transfer to the outside, or you could end up with a 'sick' house. Also if it is an > older house (1980s down) it probably is all single pane windows. Just replacing the > windows can save you a lot (both summer and winter). Ok i get the costs relevancy. Two things that are _very_ common around here for construction. First is porous/gas concrete bricks - good insulation in itself, even without styrofoam on the outside, and relatively light. Second important thing is triple-glassed windows (at least doubled are also often used). They are often made from a plastic frame, because wood is even more expensive. But building a house here is very expensive; that's why we mostly rent apartments instead of paying it up for 20 years. I guess it's also the same like so many other things different between EU/US (be it clothes or cars, for example): more durable/more heavy-duty and with focus on quality, but of course waaaay more expensive. lharms MAME Fan Reged: 01/07/06 Posts: 908 Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: CrapBoardSoftware] #241136 - 12/14/10 02:28 AM Reply Cinder block has a fairly bad R value (1-4) unless you fill the cavity in with something and you can get it up to 8. There are newer materials these days. I think the pic you showed is one of them. They have a much better R value. It is done by creating lots of small air pockets in the cement. Unfortunatly per brick they cost much more. Also here in the states it varies region to region how well/bad things are built. Where I grew up it was interior balloon style on top of cinder block basements with a 1/4-1/2 inch gap and some sort of brick wall were quite common. In Arizona/New mexico they tend towards an adobe type building with very thick walls and flat roofs with white paint. Where I live currently it is wood frame balloon style. Very little brick. So you end up using lots of foam core board or batt insulation. But as you point out the best bang for your buck is better windows. It is amazing what many contractors will do too. Friend of mine just bought a house. *ALL* the wiring is wrong. Like start a fire wrong. He has spent the past month re-wiring every fixture the whole house. On top of that the insulation is done wrong. So his whole second floor is 10-20 degrees hotter than it should be in the middle of the summer and much too cold in the winter. I will not be too surprised when he takes the siding down and finds minimal insulation. DMala Sleep is overrated Reged: 05/09/05 Posts: 3989 Loc: Waltham, MA Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: lharms] #241144 - 12/14/10 05:09 AM Reply > It is amazing what many contractors will do too. Friend of mine just bought a house. > *ALL* the wiring is wrong. Like start a fire wrong. He has spent the past month > re-wiring every fixture the whole house. On top of that the insulation is done wrong. > So his whole second floor is 10-20 degrees hotter than it should be in the middle of > the summer and much too cold in the winter. I will not be too surprised when he takes > the siding down and finds minimal insulation. Don't get me started on bozo house flippers who don't have a fucking clue. I had to replace a roof last year that was less than five years old because it was completely installed wrong and leaking all over the place. One of the owners actually got in touch with the guy who did the condo conversion, but of course his roofer was "out of business" and not able to honor any warranty, a.k.a. he didn't want to throw his buddy or whoever under the bus and so we get stuck footing the bill. redk9258 Regular Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 3968 Loc: Troy, Illinois USA Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: DMala] #241152 - 12/14/10 07:42 AM Reply > Don't get me started on bozo house flippers who don't have a fucking clue. I had to > replace a roof last year that was less than five years old because it was completely > installed wrong and leaking all over the place. One of the owners actually got in > touch with the guy who did the condo conversion, but of course his roofer was "out of > business" and not able to honor any warranty, a.k.a. he didn't want to throw his > buddy or whoever under the bus and so we get stuck footing the bill. You should have got Ask This Old House to fix it for you. They are in your back yard. keshbach1 Reged: 08/26/05 Posts: 1303 Send PM Re: It's beginning to look a lot like garage-mas... [Re: CrapBoardSoftware] #241268 - 12/15/10 09:53 PM Reply > I guess it's also the same like so many other things different between EU/US (be it > clothes or cars, for example): more durable/more heavy-duty and with focus on > quality, but of course waaaay more expensive. At one time the US did care about quality over quantity but that attitude died decades ago. Kevin Eshbach Pages: 1

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