I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it interesting:
> I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a > particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it > interesting: > > http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx > > Cheers, > > Mark Feldman
Cool read
The thing that kills me...
Anonymous guy A helps by having the sound effects for download, and now he's going to get a cease and desist letter "for helping?"
I know it's not your fault... just unfortunate.
RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.
Wow, reading that makes me glad I'm not a game developer. It's definitely a clever solution to the port-a-game-in-one-week problem. Too bad about the legal team cease & desisting the fan page, though.
> I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a > particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it > interesting: > > http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx > > Cheers, > > Mark Feldman
Thanks, that made for a great read. I'm no programmer or developer, but it has always really irked me when I read online posts or articles which reference "lazy programmers" as the root cause of perceived wrongs... I know by association that this is usually not the case, and you confirm it.
> Wow, reading that makes me glad I'm not a game developer. It's definitely a clever > solution to the port-a-game-in-one-week problem.
Yes, I agree.
I hope Mark's contracts were a lot smarter from then on. e.g. if assets weren't made available by an agree date, then there are get our clauses and the publisher cannot withhold any money for work done on other titles.
>Too bad about the legal team cease & > desisting the fan page, though.
> I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a > particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it > interesting:
That's some good stuff. Too bad I never got Spy Hunter to work in M1 or you would've had an easy way to get the sounds and music without some poor schlub getting C&Ded.
For reference, which version on the major consoles was MAME-based? I like to keep track of who's using it even if we don't do anything about it
> I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a > particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it > interesting: > > http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx > > Cheers, > > Mark Feldman
Props man!
Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!
> I hope Mark's contracts were a lot smarter from then on. > e.g. if assets weren't made available by an agree date, > then there are get our clauses and the publisher cannot > withhold any money for work done on other titles.
Doesn't work like that Moose, they *can* withhold money and they do. There were in fact multiple such clauses in our contract but that didn't make a blind bit of difference. These people are driven solely by profit, as far as they are concerned those that hold the money dictate the terms. The contract doesn't mean a damn thing to them.
Here's an example: towards the end of this particular project we delivered work that the publisher signed off on and got paid for themselves and they still turned around and refused to pay us our share, with no reason given. About six months later I was in the process of initiating legal action and they offered to settle for 50% in return for us signing a waiver that we forfeited the right to sue. Both parties signed, we put a stop to the legal action on our end and then they told us they had changed their mind and weren't going to pay again. Eventually I threatened to contact their local district attorneys office with a criminal complaint and we had our money within 24 hours.
My experiences aren't unique, this stuff happens all the time. It doesn't matter how water-tight your contract is, if the publisher thinks they can screw you and get away with it then most of the time they will. And the smaller you are, the more likely they are to try it on. The real lesson, as many developers are now finding out, is to seek out alternate development models and online distribution channels that don't involve a publisher.
It wouldn't surprise me if the publisher in question had contracts with big mobile operators/content platforms and had promised to deliver these games by a certain date. If the publisher doesn't deliver the games on time, the operators/content platforms might blacklist that publisher for future mobile releases.
I have been around the industry long enough (as an outsider, never actually worked in it) to know that publishers (and especially their legal departments) can be a nightmare to deal with. (both publishers who publish on behalf of others and big publisher-developer shops like EA and Activision Blizzard)
> > I hope Mark's contracts were a lot smarter from then on. > > e.g. if assets weren't made available by an agree date, > > then there are get our clauses and the publisher cannot > > withhold any money for work done on other titles. > > Doesn't work like that Moose, they *can* withhold money and they do. There were in > fact multiple such clauses in our contract but that didn't make a blind bit of > difference. These people are driven solely by profit, as far as they are concerned > those that hold the money dictate the terms. The contract doesn't mean a damn thing > to them. > > Here's an example: towards the end of this particular project we delivered work that > the publisher signed off on and got paid for themselves and they still turned around > and refused to pay us our share, with no reason given. About six months later I was > in the process of initiating legal action and they offered to settle for 50% in > return for us signing a waiver that we forfeited the right to sue. Both parties > signed, we put a stop to the legal action on our end and then they told us they had > changed their mind and weren't going to pay again. Eventually I threatened to contact > their local district attorneys office with a criminal complaint and we had our money > within 24 hours. > > My experiences aren't unique, this stuff happens all the time. It doesn't matter how > water-tight your contract is, if the publisher thinks they can screw you and get away > with it then most of the time they will. And the smaller you are, the more likely > they are to try it on. The real lesson, as many developers are now finding out, is to > seek out alternate development models and online distribution channels that don't > involve a publisher.
I am sad for what has happened to you.
I'm no stranger to contracts or freelancing. I've freelanced for clients in many countries (mainly in software development as an analyst / programmer, but also business analyst, and various other roles). Most of this work was fixed price contracts, some was time and materials.
Believe me, I know exactly what SCARY is. Changing requirements, shitty analysis, incomplete specifications, ambiguous documentation, hordes of cowboy analysts riding off into the sunset "high five'ing" each other on another job finished (except it's an absolute mess and highly incomplete), permanent staff and even some fellow freelancers who are too lazy and/or too stupid to do their job properly - I've pretty much seen it all.
You've simply got to protect yourself. Stop bending over for these arseholes. Don't let them rape you man. If they rape you once, don't let them do it again. Ever !
What you need to do is spell things out with milestones and payment deadlines - and make it so that these ensure you are never in too deep at any time.
If the contract is full of loopholes, don't sign it. Insist it is made specific. Walk away if they refuse. The trick is not to get in too deep so that you can still walk away and not be crippled. If you aren't 100% happy with the contract, then do NOT sign it. Find another client, find other work, walk away, at least until the contract is acceptable from your point of view.
That way, if they start playing stupid games, you can walk away without losing your company, your house, and/or the shirt off your back.
When milestone X is reached, they have an agreed time to review, and if all is OK they must sign-off the milestone and pay by date Y, or else you stop work and either walk away or refuse to do no more work until they do pay.
Until full payment is received for a milestone, only give them enough to prove that the milestone has been reached. Don't give them any source code, etc until full payment has been received.
And, you must make it so that you can walk away without getting your arse sued.
If there is a signed contract which is reasonable and doesn't contain any outrageous clauses, then it is enforceable. If you do the right thing and keep a full record of everything so you can prove this, and also prove what they have done wrong, then they cannot succeed in any law suit against you.
Stop bending over for these arseholes.
If they play games like you've mentioned - accept the work as complete and then delay payment and then only agree to pay 50%, etc - then make sure you aren't in too deep, and make sure you have all the key assets still in your hands (source code, etc), so they can't easily switch development to someone else (some other sucker). If you can afford to, call their bluff and take the fuckers to court. But make damned sure you have a cast iron case - cross every T and dot every I.
If you don't keep the bastards honest, then they will screw you again and again, and also move on to screwing others.
Good luck. It's not easy, but I hope you can find a way. I really do.
> I just posted a short anecdote on my site about how MAME saved the day during a > particularly nasty project I was working on, thought people here might find it > interesting: > > http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx > > Cheers, > > Mark Feldman
That was VERY interesting. Technical details mixed with environmental background information. Thanks!
> The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything.
Remove profit (at a personal or corporate level) and you have removed the incentive to create a worthwhile product.
> This thread exemplifies the need for a resource-based economy.
No, this thread exemplifies the need for a good legal team when your publisher tries to screw you over. Sad to say it, but it is true and a not-uncommon experience in the development field.
> > The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything. > > Remove profit (at a personal or corporate level) and you have removed the incentive > to create a worthwhile product. > > > This thread exemplifies the need for a resource-based economy. > > No, this thread exemplifies the need for a good legal team when your publisher tries > to screw you over. Sad to say it, but it is true and a not-uncommon experience in the > development field.
I've been thinking about this over the last few days - thinking about the best ways to work it without needing lawyers, without risking payments, and while still being able to sleep at night.
For the last 5 years, I've been doing a fair bit of part time work through web sites like Rent-A-Coder (RAC) = 210+ projects completed so far. In Rent-A-Coder, a buyer sets-up a project and others (workers, coders, etc) bid on it. Or, if a buyer prefers, they can setup a private project just for a specific coder (or team of coders).
For your situation, dealing with games publishers, etc, you'd almost certainly want to stick with the Private Project route, so that others aren't trying to underbid you on it. It's just you and the buyer (the publisher) when the project is private. No-one else can sneak in and cut your grass.
The buyer uploads a specification. It could be just for phase 1 of a bigger project, or it could be a prototype, or it could be anything else - anything that is a well defied deliverable. If there are any ambiguities, missing information, etc you sort them out with the buyer before bidding.
Once everyone understands the work, the buyer sets the agreed deadline and you bid on the work. Or, for private auctions, you negotiate the price and deadline, and then bid the agreed price for the work.
You do all communication on the RAC project's forum - so everything is recorded if there is some dispute later on.
At this time, the buyer has to pay for the work in full (they pay Rent-A-Coder), and RAC hang onto the money until the project is finished and the work is fully accepted by the buyer.
If the work isn't accepted, then there is an abritration process - you put your case forward as to why the work is done (e.g. show how each item in the requirements is ticked off), and the buyer says where they aren't happy. If they have a point, you do what's required and then re-upload the work.
When the work is accepted, you get paid.
RAC charge a commission - ~15% for open projects or ~10% for private projects.
A *VERY* small price to pay for peace of mind. Much better than getting shafted, paid only half, slow paid, etc.
It might be a way you can work it and still sleep at nights without having a legal team on standby ?
Who knows, while working on RAC (or other work web sites), you may find other projects that you want to do.
The way I work on RAC is to upload storeyboards, q&d prototypes, etc before bidding to flesh out the requirements, and ensure I understand exactly what's required. This also gives the buyer peace of mind - they know I'm right on the ball. I also try and make suggestions for improvements any extra features I think would be useful, and these are usually highly appreciated by the buyer. I then bid on the project, and when/if my bid is accepted, I start work.
I upload my work in stages - e.g. once per week, so the buyer can see how I'm going and try the project out. I try and hold off doing too much further work until the buyer says "Yes, that's perfect !". If they say "could you change / fix this ..." or if there is anything at any stage the buyer isn't happy with, I fix it straight away and re-upload. Once I get a "Yes, that's perfect !", I move on to the next part of the work. Records of all of this discussion and work are kept by RAC. If there is any dispute later, these records are used by RAC staff to determine if the buyer has a case or not.
By working this way, the Buyer can never turn around and say - I'm not happy with the result, because they have been perfectly happy at every stage of the development (and there are records on RAC to prove this).
You might wonder if you can trust RAC with the money for projects worth $10,000's of dollars. That's a fair question. I've regularly trusted RAC with money up to about $3,000 - $5,000. And, there are teams of full-time coders on RAC, and they do much bigger projects and they regularly trust RAC with many $10,000's of dollars.
210+ projects so far, and I've never had anyone try and pull the "I'll pay you 50%" bullshit. It's also impossible for a buyer to slow pay. The money is paid to RAC before you start work. If the buyer does not accept by a certain date or cannot prove why they aren't happy with the work by a certain date, which is something like 2 weeks after you declare the work is complete, then RAC automatically pay you for the work. The RAC staff are good guys. They hate people playing games, being dishonest, etc.
If you prefer to work on Fixed Price or a Time and Materials basis, then RAC accommodate both of these models.
Working on web sites like RAC also leads to other work, and you may find other work you like, and bid on this, and this may fill in the "quieter times" with some nice little projects and these often lead to repeat work, especially when you do a great job for the buyer.
A ~10% commission to RAC is a *very* small price to pay for such peace of mind.
Maybe this way of working can help ?
If you would like more information, please feel free to PM me.
> I've been thinking about this over the last few days - thinking about the best ways > to work it without needing lawyers, without risking payments, and while still being > able to sleep at night.
Not to disregard your idea; I read through it, and think there's some merit to it at least as far as development is concerned. However, allow me to outline another scenario:
You take on a 60-day contract at a fixed weekly rate - payable monthly - as a consultant. The gig isn't in development, but rather networking and security: the last admin left, took all the passwords with him (servers and infrastructure), and you have to do what you can to basically get the business back on its feet.
30 days into the job, the first payment is due. It turns up substantially under what it should be with excuses of 'outstanding receivables'. You're halfway through the job and don't have anything else lined up until two weeks after this one's finished, so decide to press on regardless - after all, if they do decide to stiff you, it'll look better in court if you stuck it out.
Another two weeks pass, and you're still being strung along with excuses. You give them 7 days to get payment in full to you or you're stopping all work, keeping all documentation, and getting lawyers involved if necessary. They agree to pay. Seven days pass; nothing happens.
At this point, you discover that the company filed for bankruptcy three weeks previously but didn't think to tell you. Because you are a contractor submitting invoices and not a full-time employee, the money that they owe you is legally considered debt and not salary, so they're under no obligation to pay it before the company goes into administration.
This actually happened to me last year; lawyers are now involved and I'm trying to get the nearly $20K I'm owed out of the people involved. The reason I mention this is because I'd be interested to hear how your idea may apply to that kind of situation; I can definitely see parallels between the two, but also some wildly different aspects.
> > I've been thinking about this over the last few days - thinking about the best ways > > to work it without needing lawyers, without risking payments, and while still being > > able to sleep at night. > > Not to disregard your idea; I read through it, and think there's some merit to it at > least as far as development is concerned. However, allow me to outline another > scenario: > > You take on a 60-day contract at a fixed weekly rate - payable monthly - as a > consultant. The gig isn't in development, but rather networking and security: the > last admin left, took all the passwords with him (servers and infrastructure), and > you have to do what you can to basically get the business back on its feet. > > 30 days into the job, the first payment is due. It turns up substantially under what > it should be with excuses of 'outstanding receivables'. You're halfway through the > job and don't have anything else lined up until two weeks after this one's finished, > so decide to press on regardless - after all, if they do decide to stiff you, it'll > look better in court if you stuck it out. > > Another two weeks pass, and you're still being strung along with excuses. You give > them 7 days to get payment in full to you or you're stopping all work, keeping all > documentation, and getting lawyers involved if necessary. They agree to pay. Seven > days pass; nothing happens. > > At this point, you discover that the company filed for bankruptcy three weeks > previously but didn't think to tell you. Because you are a contractor submitting > invoices and not a full-time employee, the money that they owe you is legally > considered debt and not salary, so they're under no obligation to pay it before the > company goes into administration. > > This actually happened to me last year; lawyers are now involved and I'm trying to > get the nearly $20K I'm owed out of the people involved. The reason I mention this is > because I'd be interested to hear how your idea may apply to that kind of situation; > I can definitely see parallels between the two, but also some wildly different > aspects.
I've also done this type of freelancing (short 3 / 6 / 12 month contracts) - 6 years in the UK, 3+ years in Australia, and bits and pieces here and there. With these contracts you are largely at the mercy of the client. I was never screwed while doing this work, but I was lucky enough to be solely working for large companies or government departments (British Telecom, National Power, etc).
Actually, I did several contracts with one "little" company, Perot Systems (owned by Ross Perot - the American presidential candidate - we are talking early-mid 1990's here), but this company was contracting to a larger government department, so I felt fairly safe.
Anyway, maybe it's still possible to work these kind of contracts through a web site like Rent-A-Coder (now called Get A Freelancer).
In fact, companies may be more willing to do this if you are freelancing direct to them (without working through a 3rd party agency) because then there are fewer potential taxation issues. (I'm not sure how this works in the USA, but in Australia and the UK, companies tend to become quite worried that the tax office may class you as an employee if you work for them on contracts for too long, causing all sorts of potential tax, super, etc issues. If you work for them on contracts for more than 12 months, and the tax office says "No, you are an employee not a freelancer", then there are rec leave, super annuation, and lots of tax issues - what they paid you should have been net after tax, so you get a huge tax refund and the company get a huge tax bill, etc. I never saw this happen, but companies were always worried when you worked there for 12+ months. Some forced you to take a break for a few days at least before signing the next contract - anyone for a quick trip around Spain ? - and then start the next contract just to prove you were not permanent).
So, the work website could add the required 3rd party buffer (replacing or augmenting any agency you might be working through).
If the client was prepared to split the project into multiple 1 month (or weekly or fortnightly or whatever) projects - then they would need to pay (the work web site) in full at the start of the period, and you would get your money at the end of the period (less the ~10% commission) provided they were happy with your work.
To ensure they were happy with my work, I would lodge weekly reports with the work web site (RAC or whatever) and try and keep as much work related communication as possible on the work web site (RAC or whatever).
Very sorry to hear what's happened Casm. I sure do hope you get all your money back. Hope the @$#%ing lawyers don't stick you with a bill. Good luck man !
> > The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything. > > Remove profit (at a personal or corporate level) and you have removed the incentive > to create a worthwhile product.
This is MAME world, you know. MAME.
Resource-based is beyond socialism. Einstein is not a relevant example. His achievements were thought-based, not industrially-based. He could've done those things in a hole in Africa. In fact, in a leisure society, MORE people would have the opportunity to do exactly what he spent most of his time doing - without the need to worry about it.
Of course, there would be no 'professional' sports. No TV programming people would spend ridiculous hours on. No fast food. Etc.
More quality time spent between others, very likely. Cooperation rather than competition. Less jealousy - and hence less monogamy, too. Shall I go on? Are we into bin territory yet?
> > > > The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything. This > > thread exemplifies the need for a resource-based economy. > > Commie bast! > > > > Twist, ban hammer pleeze > > Cheers, > > Ralph.
> > > The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything. > > > > Remove profit (at a personal or corporate level) and you have removed the incentive > > to create a worthwhile product. > > > This is MAME world, you know. MAME.
Thanks for the clarification. Had you not pointed that out, I would have assumed that your non-MAME-related point (to which I replied) was entirely relevant here.
> Shall I go on?
Please don't. Your arguments in this area are flawed and tedious enough to read through once that I really have no desire to do so again.
> > > > The best way to keep people honest is to take the profit out of everything. > > > > > > Remove profit (at a personal or corporate level) and you have removed the > incentive > > > to create a worthwhile product. > > > > > > This is MAME world, you know. MAME. > > Thanks for the clarification. Had you not pointed that out, I would have assumed that > your non-MAME-related point (to which I replied) was entirely relevant here. > > > Shall I go on? > > Please don't. Your arguments in this area are flawed and tedious enough to read > through once that I really have no desire to do so again.
Sounds like a personal problem. They usually are. I don't love you any less, dear. (Gawd, now this is bin territory.)
> How could the publisher get an order on something they only had the rights to port?
Given this was presumably for Midway (they published all the Spy Hunter ports and emulations that I'm aware of), they had full rights to the game.
> Also, I'm surprised the developer (you) didn't withold the *source of your > information* in anticipation they might fuckin hank the guy.
Eh, I've been in the business for a long time and I didn't anticipate while reading that that the publisher would go after a dude for posting some wav files from a PCB.
> I'm further surprised no one else has said they thought of this obvious error....
When I'm doing work on contract it typically doesn't occur to me to hide how I did stuff. Heck, I thought his solution was a little clever and if I were him I probably would've done some bragging too.
That all said, he could have used MAME there too. The music and sound f/x are separate chips with separate volume sliders in the ~ menu so with an invincibility cheat you could pretty easily collect a complete loop of the music and then the various sounds.
> > How could the publisher get an order on something they only had the rights to port? > > Given this was presumably for Midway (they published all > the Spy Hunter ports and emulations that I'm aware of), > they had full rights to the game.
Actually it wasn't Midway, to my knowledge they were completely oblivious to this whole mess. I'm not mentioning who the real culprits were for obvious reasons.
Licensing in this industry gets complex. In this particular case there were actually four separate publishers involved at various levels, with lots of contracting and subcontracting going on. Typically one company will own the intellectual property (Midway, in this case) but they only have a finite number of resources to market their products (don't forget it takes a lot of money to market things). Rather than just let the IP sit there and atrophy they'll typically license it externally to a smaller publisher for a fixed period of time e.g. a few years. They'll keep an eye on it to make sure the IP isn't being compromised in any way, but otherwise the licensee is the one who stands to make or lose money for the duration of the license. This is where you get a bit of big-dog/little-dog syndrome creeping in...the larger publishers like Midway/EA/Activision etc tend to have bigger fish to fry whereas these smaller publishers who have licensed these products feel like they're now playing with the big boys and therefore have something to prove.
> > Also, I'm surprised the developer (you) didn't withold > > the *source of your information* in anticipation they > > might fuckin hank the guy.
You would never, EVER do this. I've seen quite a few people bring this up, it would be a pretty risky and foolish thing to do. The contracts you sign are very explicit on the point about owning rights to the assets you deliver to the publisher. Had those sound files been watermarked in any way, and if it had become public knowledge and backfired on the publisher then we would have been liable. You tell the publisher where you got it and you let their legal team decide on it.
In practice it's never that straightforward anyway, you're often working quite closely with an external producer, employed by the publisher, who is constantly breathing down your neck. They don't have anything better to do and they need to be seen to be actively managing the project. So they're taking up a good hour or your time every day wanting details about pretty much everything. In short, the external producer often has a pretty good idea of what everyone is up to anyway, it very well could have been him who suggested we start looking at the fan sites in the first place.
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