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franciscohs
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can you recomend a good book on emulation?
#212324 - 01/25/10 10:31 PM


I'd like to read about emulation in general, how it's done, different approachs to emulation, interpreted CPUs, DRCs, etc...

On the level, I'm not a programmer although I know some programming, and I can learn, so that's not a problem.

I'm not sure if this exists at all. But I'd like to hear suggestions.

Thanks



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: franciscohs]
#212345 - 01/26/10 02:30 AM


> I'd like to read about emulation in general, how it's done, different approachs to
> emulation, interpreted CPUs, DRCs, etc...
>
> On the level, I'm not a programmer although I know some programming, and I can learn,
> so that's not a problem.
>
> I'm not sure if this exists at all. But I'd like to hear suggestions.

Nicola Salmoria's doctoral thesis - http://arcarc.xmission.com/Magazines%20a...etto%20MAME.pdf
"Translated" - http://arcarc.xmission.com/Magazines%20and%20Books/Nicola%20Salmoria%27s%20Thesis%20(translated).zip
(probably would do better just feeding the URL to Google anymore)
Joes Tejada Gomez's paper (Spanish) - http://web.archive.org/web/20050513091124/http://webs.ono.com/usr002/jotego/recreativas.pdf
Marat's site - http://fms.komkon.org/EMUL8/HOWTO.html
Michael Adcock's AEHowto (lots of dated info) - http://michaeladcock.info/MLIS/papers/AEHowTo.txt
Dan Boris's articles - http://www.atarihq.com/danb/emulation.shtml#emuarticles
Generator's term paper - http://www.squish.net/generator/gendoc.pdf
and many of the above sources are outdated...
Reversing: Secrets of Reverse Engineering (Paperback) - Eldad Eilam

- learn assembly programming
- etc.

There really isn't a book.

Okay, that taps me out. Anyone else?

- Stiletto



franciscohs
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Posts: 174
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: Stiletto]
#212364 - 01/26/10 05:27 AM


That's interesting, thanks for taking the time to compile this list. I'll look into it.

I'm an Electronic engineer and I did my BS thesis modeling a RISC processor in VHDL, so I have (or had) some understanding in hardware, assembler, etc.

Do you (or anyone else) know if this book is any good?

http://www.amazon.com/Emulation-Users-Guide-Kenneth-Stevens/dp/1435753739

Edit: I though it more about programming, but it doesn't seem to be that kind of book...

Edited by franciscohs (01/26/10 05:36 AM)



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: franciscohs]
#212368 - 01/26/10 06:00 AM


> That's interesting, thanks for taking the time to compile this list. I'll look into
> it.
>
> I'm an Electronic engineer and I did my BS thesis modeling a RISC processor in VHDL,
> so I have (or had) some understanding in hardware, assembler, etc.
>
> Do you (or anyone else) know if this book is any good?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Emulation-Users-Guide-Kenneth-Stevens/dp/1435753739
>
> Edit: I though it more about programming, but it doesn't seem to be that kind of
> book...

Yeah, seems more like a "history of the sk3n3"/how-to-use kind of thing. Never heard of it, though. (BTW, if you want a really funny/weird take on MAME & the emulation scene, read "Lucky Wander Boy")

- Stiletto

Edited by Stiletto (01/26/10 07:24 AM)



franciscohs
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Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 174
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: Stiletto]
#212383 - 01/26/10 03:30 PM


> Yeah, seems more like a "history of the sk3n3"/how-to-use kind of thing. Never heard
> of it, though. (BTW, if you want a really funny/weird take on MAME & the emulation
> scene, read "Lucky Wander Boy")
>
> - Stiletto

Great, already on my wishlist... ;-)



R. Belmont
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: Stiletto]
#212386 - 01/26/10 04:22 PM


I've said it before, I'll say it again: emulation isn't something you can be taught how to do as a specific thing. You must learn assembly language for at least one system well enough to write non-trivial programs. At that point you have the background to understand how emulation actually works - it's important to know how computers actually work first since emulation duplicates that.



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: R. Belmont]
#212391 - 01/26/10 05:58 PM


> I've said it before, I'll say it again: emulation isn't something you can be taught
> how to do as a specific thing. You must learn assembly language for at least one
> system well enough to write non-trivial programs. At that point you have the
> background to understand how emulation actually works - it's important to know how
> computers actually work first since emulation duplicates that.

Well, pardon me for trying to encourage the guy.

Fact is that you don't have to write an emulator from scratch. If you just want to make your own emulator for laughs, depending on the platform you're interested in emulating, there may be plenty of open-source CPU cores and whatnot all ready for use. There's even a few how-to's out there to walk you through the process. And when you're done, you might have some games playable, even though getting those last few games requires knowledge and information you don't have. And at this point, you can call yourself an emulator author, even though, according to some, you won't be.

If you want to be a MAMEDEV or MESSDEV or what have you and emulate a game from the ground up, with unemulated CPUs and chipsets and video processors and audio processors - I agree, you'll need a whole lot more than just tacking some libraries together.

As far as things go, franciscohs - you shouldn't listen to me. I have no direct experience. I've never written an emulator. I've barely submitted code to MAME, and what I have has been documentation fixes. In the comments. I'm no electronics engineer, more someone interested in information science. And I tend to have these search-engine-results-augmented conversations online, and in person, I may not be able to talk knowledgeably about stuff. And I'll be the first to admit that.

But I've been "in the scene" a while, and I know what's been mentioned when this topic has come up before. I know there's no book. I know you need to have a very decent background in the fundamentals before attempting from scratch. And I know Arbee knows all this about me.

---

If anything, this thread tells me that there's still residual interest from programmers wanting to learn how to do it, and there isn't as obvious a "go-to" place for "learning" how, anymore. Used to be things like "How-to Emulation" and EMUL8 list, and Retrogames' Emulator Programming messageboard, most of those places are dead.

- Stiletto



franciscohs
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Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 174
Loc: Argentina
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Re: can you recomend a good book on emulation? new [Re: Stiletto]
#212396 - 01/26/10 07:41 PM


> > I've said it before, I'll say it again: emulation isn't something you can be taught
> > how to do as a specific thing. You must learn assembly language for at least one
> > system well enough to write non-trivial programs. At that point you have the
> > background to understand how emulation actually works - it's important to know how
> > computers actually work first since emulation duplicates that.
>
> Well, pardon me for trying to encourage the guy.
>
> Fact is that you don't have to write an emulator from scratch. If you just want to
> make your own emulator for laughs, depending on the platform you're interested in
> emulating, there may be plenty of open-source CPU cores and whatnot all ready for
> use. There's even a few how-to's out there to walk you through the process. And when
> you're done, you might have some games playable, even though getting those last few
> games requires knowledge and information you don't have. And at this point, you can
> call yourself an emulator author, even though, according to some, you won't be.
>
> If you want to be a MAMEDEV or MESSDEV or what have you and emulate a game from the
> ground up, with unemulated CPUs and chipsets and video processors and audio
> processors - I agree, you'll need a whole lot more than just tacking some libraries
> together.
>
> As far as things go, franciscohs - you shouldn't listen to me. I have no direct
> experience. I've never written an emulator. I've barely submitted code to MAME, and
> what I have has been documentation fixes. In the comments. I'm no electronics
> engineer, more someone interested in information science. And I tend to have these
> search-engine-results-augmented conversations online, and in person, I may not be
> able to talk knowledgeably about stuff. And I'll be the first to admit that.
>
> But I've been "in the scene" a while, and I know what's been mentioned when this
> topic has come up before. I know there's no book. I know you need to have a very
> decent background in the fundamentals before attempting from scratch. And I know
> Arbee knows all this about me.
>
> ---
>
> If anything, this thread tells me that there's still residual interest from
> programmers wanting to learn how to do it, and there isn't as obvious a "go-to" place
> for "learning" how, anymore. Used to be things like "How-to Emulation" and EMUL8
> list, and Retrogames' Emulator Programming messageboard, most of those places are
> dead.
>
> - Stiletto

Well, at this point I'm not really thinking about being a dev, I just know that my nature makes me dig further into things I'm interested which sometimes results in getting a new hobby and sometimes in forgetting about it and move along, most times the latter since I can't learn about everything.

I sometimes like to read a book as a place to read about different topics on the same subject in a coherent way. I imagine there might be different way to do things, HLE, interpreted CPUs or DRCs, etc. And probably other things I don't even know about or things already proven inefficient or inadequate that might be good to know about as well, so that you don't repeat mistakes, etc.

But I've also been reading the documents at Mamedev and other places, MAME source, etc. I know too well that there is no unified place to learn about anything and that experience is the key point on almost any discipline. I'm not looking for any magic guide to be an emulation programmer with only 10 minutes of studying a day while I sleep.

In any case, I don't see why wouldn't I listen to you, or R.Belmont or anyone for that matter. I listen, take what I can use and discard the rest. I really appreciate the input of both of you.


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